Include experience as labor organizer?

[MissWorld]

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Hi,

I am currently applying for residency (likely in Internal Medicine). I spent several years before medical school organizing a union for scientists and academics. This experience very much shaped who I am and I would love to talk about it with any interviewer who would find it interesting. I originally had no intention of including this anywhere on my application (who would want to hire a union activist...), but I am reconsidering because I do think it sets me apart and it makes for very good conversation. I also think that if I made it to the interview, any concerns about any risk of hiring a troublemaker would be assuaged.

I would appreciate any advice on whether or not to include this experience.

Thank you.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Hi,

I am currently applying for residency (likely in Internal Medicine). I spent several years before medical school organizing a union for scientists and academics. This experience very much shaped who I am and I would love to talk about it with any interviewer who would find it interesting. I originally had no intention of including this anywhere on my application (who would want to hire a union activist...), but I am reconsidering because I do think it sets me apart and it makes for very good conversation. I also think that if I made it to the interview, any concerns about any risk of hiring a troublemaker would be assuaged.

I would appreciate any advice on whether or not to include this experience.

Thank you.

There is no right answer here. Some people may see it as very interesting / unique / sets you apart. Some may see it as a major problem in the future. I expect it would help in some locations, and hurt in others.

 

[Hurricane]

I'm one of the resident reps to our admission committee for my psychiatry residency, and we would consider that a positive. Dunno about internal medicine...

 

[IndyXRT]

Hi,

I am currently applying for residency (likely in Internal Medicine). I spent several years before medical school organizing a union for scientists and academics. This experience very much shaped who I am and I would love to talk about it with any interviewer who would find it interesting. I originally had no intention of including this anywhere on my application (who would want to hire a union activist...), but I am reconsidering because I do think it sets me apart and it makes for very good conversation. I also think that if I made it to the interview, any concerns about any risk of hiring a troublemaker would be assuaged.

I would appreciate any advice on whether or not to include this experience.

Thank you.

It's been so long that I have forgotten - is there a section on ERAS for previous employment? If so, it makes sense to list this. I'm not sure I would try to fit it in if there is no obvious place to list it, but I don't think it would be a negative. Whether it's a positive is entirely dependent on who is reading your application.

 

[DarthNeurology]

Hi,

I am currently applying for residency (likely in Internal Medicine). I spent several years before medical school organizing a union for scientists and academics. This experience very much shaped who I am and I would love to talk about it with any interviewer who would find it interesting. I originally had no intention of including this anywhere on my application (who would want to hire a union activist...), but I am reconsidering because I do think it sets me apart and it makes for very good conversation. I also think that if I made it to the interview, any concerns about any risk of hiring a troublemaker would be assuaged.

I would appreciate any advice on whether or not to include this experience.

Thank you.

I think it depends on who reads the statement. Say an internists who wants doctors to have more rights like the good old days might like it, especially if they are also a scientist. If a surgeon read it they might not like it because they might think that a person who organizes unions is somewhat of a protestor. Based on your concern who this will play out I am guessing that during your interview your proclivity towards empowerment and sticking your finger in the eye of the establishment might not go over well.

Did you know that by law doctors can't form unions? It actually makes sense because doctors are providing vital healthcare services and withdrawl of services (which is probably the best tactic unions have) will cost people their lives. Also, I'm sure that few if any PDs would want residents to organize and form unions, the reason of which is to protest mistreatment which program directors of course believe doesn't happen or is only part of the "educational process."

Regardless, if I was the PD I wouldn't look favorably on being a union organizer for scientists and educators as it is not clinically related, nothing on the level of doing the Peace Corps for three years, and at least in my eyes portrays someone who is conflict prone. And as you said yourself you might be perceived as a "troublemaker."

I don't know how this would make for interesting conversation although perhaps you can figure that out. Discussing it certainly doesn't cast light how you can be an excellent resident and is at best a distractor.

If you watch the RNC they bashed Obama for being a "community organizer", which frankly I don't know what one does, your past role also sounds somewhat nefarious althought it might not be. . . I also would question what a union for "scientists and educators" would accomplish as the good ones pretty much get tenure, but potentially a crummy scientist could keep their "union job" and waste tax payers millions.

May not be what your union was trying to accomplish but when I think of unions I think more of blue collar workers being taken advantage of by unscrupulous bosses, . . .

Big Question I would have as a PD: "Given how applicant X really went after abuse of scientists and educators how would he/she feel when they work for relatively low wages doing huge amounts of work with little sleep, . . . would they complain or realize that medicine requires many sacrifices of personal freedom. Hmmmmm

Being in medicine means sort of the same thing as being in the army, i.e. they own you. You can't realistically protest any abuse as a resident and you have to work hard and long hours, sometimes without food and water and you can't form a union, i.e. your personal freedom and treatment comes behind everybody else's concern.

 

[MissWorld]

I appreciate your opinion on whether I should include this in my application.

Your opinion on unions and on my work, values and the type of person I may be was unsolicited, but I will respond.

I am guessing that during your interview your proclivity towards empowerment and sticking your finger in the eye of the establishment might not go over well.

I'm not sure what you mean by this or where you got the idea that I would like to "stick my finger in the eye of the establishment."

Did you know that by law doctors can't form unions? It actually makes sense because doctors are providing vital healthcare services and withdrawl of services (which is probably the best tactic unions have) will cost people their lives. Also, I'm sure that few if any PDs would want residents to organize and form unions, the reason of which is to protest mistreatment which program directors of course believe doesn't happen or is only part of the "educational process."

I think that it is naive of you to think that a union of doctors would withdraw "vital healthcare services." They would likely not need to. Our position is so valuable that even canceling elective procedures for one day would have a huge monetary impact. However, I don't think that physicians would organize for wages and benefits, but more because they are committed to providing the best care and want a say in hospital decisions that impact patient care. On a larger scale, I think physicians could organize nationally to put pressure on the government and insurance companies. As for the law, things are illegal until they are done and deemed legal. Or they are done and there is an agreement/settlement and the law is never invoked.

Regardless, if I was the PD I wouldn't look favorably on being a union organizer for scientists and educators as it is not clinically related, nothing on the level of doing the Peace Corps for three years, and at least in my eyes portrays someone who is conflict prone. And as you said yourself you might be perceived as a "troublemaker."

You sound quite confrontational yourself. What makes you so passionate on this issue? I was part of a movement to extend health benefits to dependents of graduate students. I think that is very clinically related. Many people can join the peace core. It takes a dedicated, committed and hard-working person with good interpersonal skills to be a successful organizer. These are traits that I bring to whatever I do.

I don't know how this would make for interesting conversation although perhaps you can figure that out. Discussing it certainly doesn't cast light how you can be an excellent resident and is at best a distractor.

Yes. I can figure this out. My clerkship evaluations and my substantial list of first author publications in clinical areas will speak to my ability. An organizer is someone that gets things done and makes things happen all the while maintaining good and trusting relationships with others. I found these skills to be extremely helpful on the wards.

If you watch the RNC they bashed Obama for being a "community organizer", which frankly I don't know what one does, your past role also sounds somewhat nefarious althought it might not be. . . I also would question what a union for "scientists and educators" would accomplish as the good ones pretty much get tenure, but potentially a crummy scientist could keep their "union job" and waste tax payers millions.

Nefarious? Thats not a very nice thing to say. Every year it is more and more difficult to get funding for research and the particular difficulty for young investigators is discouraging great researchers from even trying. Universities are expanding graduate programs and the number of postdoctoral positions without creating any faculty positions to expand the job market for these trainees. Physician-scientists create drugs and vaccines and have no say when industry makes them inaccessible or decides not to manufacture them at all, because they are not profitable. Influence of pharmaceutical companies has made "clinical evidence" a grey area. Organized academics and physicians will result in better science, more qualified people going into science, and improved ability of physicians to provide the best care to their patients.

May not be what your union was trying to accomplish but when I think of unions I think more of blue collar workers being taken advantage of by unscrupulous bosses, . . .

This is an outdated notion.

Big Question I would have as a PD: "Given how applicant X really went after abuse of scientists and educators how would he/she feel when they work for relatively low wages doing huge amounts of work with little sleep, . . . would they complain or realize that medicine requires many sacrifices of personal freedom. Hmmmmm

"Hmmmmmm..." Again, you're not very nice. I am going to be a great resident, a great doctor and a great clinical investigator. There is no way that won't come through in my application and interview. I'm not sure how I feel about the training process for medicine, but there isn't the right climate to change it and I don't have the time.

Being in medicine means sort of the same thing as being in the army, i.e. they own you. You can't realistically protest any abuse as a resident and you have to work hard and long hours, sometimes without food and water and you can't form a union, i.e. your personal freedom and treatment comes behind everybody else's concern.

I disagree with this. Even as a resident, you are an employee and you have rights. Its also my opinion that happy and fed residents are better doctors and I would imagine that many PDs would want their residents to be happy.

Who are you? You sound very jaded and unhappy.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I disagree with this. Even as a resident, you are an employee and you have rights. Its also my opinion that happy and fed residents are better doctors and I would imagine that many PDs would want their residents to be happy.

I agree with you on all of your comments except this one.

While PDs many ostensibly want their residents to be happy, if that means the work isn't done, then guess what gives?

Of course, this isn't true in all programs, but you may be a bit suprised to find out what little leverage residents have, how uncomfortable they feel about complaining when there is abuse (because it is not anonymous and the fear of losing a position or program keeps people quiet) and the fact that programs are fairly free to abuse residents and ignore their "rights". To put it bluntly, residency programs have residents by the short and curlies and they know it.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Did you know that by law doctors can't form unions?

This statement is not true.

All of the physicians at a hospital, if salaried, are welcome to form a union.

Residents can form a union.

What can't happen is several independent physicians getting together and deciding to not accept an insurance program or set prices with each other. This means that theoretically there can't be a union of all physicians, who then try to change the system by limiting access / striking / etc.

Theoretically, this is why all of the machinists at Boeing can strike, but all of the machinists at all of the different airline plants can't get together and negotiate. Boeing's machinists can strike, and machinists in other unions can refuse to fill in in support.

However, I don't understand why all the writers in Hollywood can strike. Or all of the baseball players. I would think that the writers for a single network could unionize and strike, but it seems a violation of the Sherman Anti-Trust act for all of Hollywood writers to strike together. Maybe someone can clear this up?

 

[DarthNeurology]

I appreciate your opinion on whether I should include this in my application.

Your opinion on unions and on my work, values and the type of person I may be was unsolicited, but I will respond.



I'm not sure what you mean by this or where you got the idea that I would like to "stick my finger in the eye of the establishment."



I think that it is naive of you to think that a union of doctors would withdraw "vital healthcare services." They would likely not need to. Our position is so valuable that even canceling elective procedures for one day would have a huge monetary impact. However, I don't think that physicians would organize for wages and benefits, but more because they are committed to providing the best care and want a say in hospital decisions that impact patient care. On a larger scale, I think physicians could organize nationally to put pressure on the government and insurance companies. As for the law, things are illegal until they are done and deemed legal. Or they are done and there is an agreement/settlement and the law is never invoked.



You sound quite confrontational yourself. What makes you so passionate on this issue? I was part of a movement to extend health benefits to dependents of graduate students. I think that is very clinically related. Many people can join the peace core. It takes a dedicated, committed and hard-working person with good interpersonal skills to be a successful organizer. These are traits that I bring to whatever I do.



Yes. I can figure this out. My clerkship evaluations and my substantial list of first author publications in clinical areas will speak to my ability. An organizer is someone that gets things done and makes things happen all the while maintaining good and trusting relationships with others. I found these skills to be extremely helpful on the wards.



Nefarious? Thats not a very nice thing to say. Every year it is more and more difficult to get funding for research and the particular difficulty for young investigators is discouraging great researchers from even trying. Universities are expanding graduate programs and the number of postdoctoral positions without creating any faculty positions to expand the job market for these trainees. Physician-scientists create drugs and vaccines and have no say when industry makes them inaccessible or decides not to manufacture them at all, because they are not profitable. Influence of pharmaceutical companies has made "clinical evidence" a grey area. Organized academics and physicians will result in better science, more qualified people going into science, and improved ability of physicians to provide the best care to their patients.



This is an outdated notion.



"Hmmmmmm..." Again, you're not very nice. I am going to be a great resident, a great doctor and a great clinical investigator. There is no way that won't come through in my application and interview. I'm not sure how I feel about the training process for medicine, but there isn't the right climate to change it and I don't have the time.



I disagree with this. Even as a resident, you are an employee and you have rights. Its also my opinion that happy and fed residents are better doctors and I would imagine that many PDs would want their residents to be happy.

Who are you? You sound very jaded and unhappy.

Let met get this straight, you ask for advice about talking about unions in your personal statement and I give you my honest opinions of your situation and how a program director might respond and you get upset? I think that having publication is great, but just that the whole union thing might not go over well if not explained properly.

If you post a large amount of information about your situation then people will critique it if asked for critique, i.e. what might a Program Director think. Don't be surprised if you ask for advice and people give you blunt advice back.

While I am sorry that you think I am "not a nice person", I was giving you advice that you should "re-theme" this aspect of your application, i.e. talking about getting healthcare for dependents of graduate students is good.

OK, I believe you, you will become a "great resident" and a "great doctor" and a "great investigator" you seem to talk about this as preordained fact, although it has not yet happened. So if you will interview at MGH and subsequently be promoted to chief resident after one year on the job then why ask for any advice at all about your application?

I don't understand the brief fragmented comments you make about pharmaceutical companies not producing profitable drugs and how this relates to physicians and scientists organizing. Seems to me that the orphan drug act helps some and perhaps money should be allocated via government as to say putting more funding into say an HIV/AIDS vaccine.

The people who by and large are making these decisions about what gets funded at the NIH are scientists and many are physician scientists. I don't buy the argument that unionization among scientists will lead to more research positions (doesn't university funding for faculty spots play a role?) You seem to justify unionization of scientists and physicians as a cure for many problems where I just don't see an application regardless of the benefits for physicians to organize.

You seem to imply that if physicians had the power to strike, i.e. not do surgeries or run clinic, they wouldn't use it anyway. From my experience with some very angry attendings some of them would strike and it would lead to patient mortality and morbidity. Even a delay of "elective procedures" could lead to excessive morbidity and mortality, not to mention the blow to public trust.

You said that there is "no way" how your predetermined future of being a "great resident" and a "great doctor" and a "great clinical researcher" won't come through when you submit your residency application. Well all I have to say is:

Way.

Some PDs will love your application, some will not. You'll see.

 

[DarthNeurology]

I think that it is naive of you to think that a union of doctors would withdraw "vital healthcare services." They would likely not need to.

Really? Doctors in other countries strike, pretty naive to think otherwise (sorry couldn't resist throwing this criticism back at you at it seems to imply beautifully to your fantasy world where doctors don't take advantage of people without legal restraints.) I am sure that 20,000 doctors no longer seeing "non-urgent" cases is going to lead to some "negative patient outcomes", i.e. I need more fingers and toes to count the number of times that a patient seen for a "routine visit" was admitted to the floor for a medical problem they didn't know was serious.


Some 20,000 doctors at German state-run hospitals lay down their stethoscopes this week demanding better pay and work conditions. Can the country afford to pay its doctors more -- and can it afford not to?


On Wednesday afternoon, several dozen physicians stood outside the University Hospital of Cologne, cleaning the windows of stopped cars. The action was meant to show that they are treated more like menial labor than highly trained professionals.

Doctors across Germany went on strike after the state tariff association, which represents university hospital employers, sought to increase the official working week to 42 hours from 38.5. But the physicians' union, the Marburger Bund, argued this would mean a pay decrease in real terms. They demanded a 30 percent wage increase in turn.

Bildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: 'Say 'Aaah' -- or let me clean your windshield'. MDs in Cologne got creative for publicity
Negotiations reached an impasse last week, leading to preliminary strikes that have since grown. Altogether, more than 20,000 M.D.s have stopped work across the country in staggered protest strikes (only non-urgent medical services have been affected so far.) On Wednesday, more than 5,000 white-coated doctors turned up for a massive protest march in Hanover.

Offer 'too bad to take'

According to Rudolf Henke, vice chairman of the Marbuger Bund, accepting the 42 hour-week would mean a real loss to physicians of up to 15 percent of their earnings.

"We know in the end we have to negotiate (over the 30 percent wage increase demand,) but I have to say, the employers' offer to date is just too bad to accept," Henke said.

Exploratory talks Thursday had failed to bring about a deal, but both sides agreed to further negotiations next week.

Bildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: More than 5,000 showed up for a demonstration in Hanover on Wednesday
The M.D.s also argue that most hospital physicians work way more than 42 hours each week already -- hours they aren't compensated for. And they complain they are underpaid for on-call shifts, and have steadily lost holiday pay.

"The general public people think doctors earn really well. But when it comes to hospital doctors, that's not the case," said Roland Teufer, head of anaesthesiology at the Community Hospital of Traunstein in southern Germany. "Clinic doctors generally work a lot of overtime hours, well more than 38.5 hours, and they aren't paid for it."

 

[DarthNeurology]

Our position is so valuable that even canceling elective procedures for one day would have a huge monetary impact. However, I don't think that physicians would organize for wages and benefits, but more because they are committed to providing the best care and want a say in hospital decisions that impact patient care. On a larger scale, I think physicians could organize nationally to put pressure on the government and insurance companies. As for the law, things are illegal until they are done and deemed legal. Or they are done and there is an agreement/settlement and the law is never invoked.


I disagree with this. Even as a resident, you are an employee and you have rights. Its also my opinion that happy and fed residents are better doctors and I would imagine that many PDs would want their residents to be happy.

Physicians in other countries have striked over wages, i.e. see the article about german doctors above. I didn't know you were a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure the law doesn't say that "Things are illegal until they are done and deemed legal." General statements like that don't bolster your position. Maybe there isn't a law against flying a hot air balloon over Sacramento and dropping a ton of tomatoes everywhere, but if I do it I am pretty sure it won't be made legal.

Let me guess, if a PD demands that you show up promptly for clinic, even if it means missing lunch then you will tell them that you are an employee and want your 30 or 45 minute lunch break and then tell her or him that they aren't "very nice"?

A LOT of attendings are going to say things to you that "aren't very nice" so if I were you I would hope I get into a residency program that is the nicest in the country in terms of treatment of residents, otherwise you are in for one big rude awakening.

Also, you state about how "our" position is so valuable . . . well, there are many people in healthcare who feel that doctors are overpaid, and many of them want to cut down payment for procedures, who is to say they are wrong? Why should a surgeon be paid x amount for say an elective surgical procedure when perhaps we could get by with paying them only half that? By setting yourself as being "valuable" you set yourself up for disappointment when quite possibly your earnings or other markers of prestige are taken away. No one is irreplaceable or too valuable to not figure out how to have a midlevel do their job or at least to discuss paying less. Plenty of people go to Mexico to get bargain surgeries and this trend may accelerate so that "our position" is not so valuable.

 

[DarthNeurology]

This statement is not true.

Residents can form a union.

I wouldn't want to form a union as a resident, and if asked to join I wouldn't. If there is a problem a group of residents has then I would guess everybody could ask the PD nicely about it. (I am assuming that residents can't form a national union, just a pseudo-union at a hospital and that residents can't strike, making their "union" impotent.) I am sure some PD would hold something "the union" does against all the residents and perhaps even fire all the residents.

What is there to bargain for as a resident? The salary of all residents across the US is pretty stable, not grandiose but certainly enough to live on. Work hours are fixed, i.e. not more than 80-hours per week on average, so what is there left to bargain for?

If you get fired from the widget factory you can easily go and get another job making widgets or maybe at the nut and bolt factory. Not so with medicine. If you get kicked out of a residency you are up the stream without a paddle. The benefits-to-risk ratio is not in the resident's favor and the PDs know it as Winged eloquently put it.

 

[MissWorld]

Let me guess, if a PD demands that you show up promptly for clinic, even if it means missing lunch then you will tell them that you are an employee and want your 30 or 45 minute lunch break and then tell her or him that they aren't "very nice"?

A LOT of attendings are going to say things to you that "aren't very nice" so if I were you I would hope I get into a residency program that is the nicest in the country in terms of treatment of residents, otherwise you are in for one big rude awakening.

I didn't get upset. You are the one who is on a serious rant. Its almost amusing but a bit scary. I don't think I need any more advice from you. So why don't you go play with your saber, Darth. 😉

 

[MissWorld]

However, I don't understand why all the writers in Hollywood can strike. Or all of the baseball players. I would think that the writers for a single network could unionize and strike, but it seems a violation of the Sherman Anti-Trust act for all of Hollywood writers to strike together. Maybe someone can clear this up?

I am not an expert and I dont have time to double-check right now, but I think that the Clayton Act of 1914 exempted unions from the Sherman Anti-Trust.

 

[roadrunnerrita]

I think resident unions do more than bargian for wages. I know the union at the hospital where I go to school has contracts that secure spots for the residents should the program or fellowship lose acreditation or if the hospital should be shut down or downsize. For instance, when the MLK hsoptial was shut down I believe the county system had to pay for the residents to work in another hospital for at least one year.

However, to the original question: Listing it in employment or volunteer work is a good idea. It's unique and I think you will find people who ask you about it. In terms of putting it in your essay, think it would depend on how you talked about your experience.

 

[dragonfly99]

Agree with wingedscapula
and somewhat with Darthneurology.
Since you are applying for internal med, I would say some people might look favorably upon your past union activities, while others would not. If you were applying for orthopedic surg, or any surgical residency, I would definitely not mention it.

I think the OP seems to have a somewhat idealized view of residency. As winged scapula points out, residency programs have you by the balls and they know it. It's just not very easy to switch or change residencies, so mostly you just have to suck it up once you are there, and do what you need to do to make the higher ups happy and do your work as well as you can. I don't think most PD's care if you are well fed or if you have slept. In some theoretical pie in the sky way they might, but really they just care that the work gets done, that nobody complains about how you act or work, and they hope that you are learning something. They may care in theory if you are "happy" but they really don't want to hear you complain and probably will interpret most "suggestions" from a resident(s) as a complaint, but it does depend on the individual program director somewhat. This is from a former medicine resident (now fellow) at a pretty solid IM program that isn't known for being ghetto/underfunded or particularly abusive.

There are hospitals where the residents are unionized (some hospitals in New York City I know for sure) so you may be interested in going to one of those residencies. I have a friend at a NYC residency and she states that they have a union there (CIR is the name) and that the residents all pay mandatory dues. She previously worked as a resident at a nonunionized hospital, and she can't tell any difference (i.e. different pay or working conditions) but of course we don't know what that hospital was like before having the residents' union...
I will say that I doubt unions can do much about residency pay, since it's gov't funded and going to be relatively the same wherever you go.