Incoming Freshman - Pre-Med GPA at Duke

[allie2274]

Hi everyone,

I am planning on attending Duke in the fall for my undergraduate degree. I have heard that Duke classes are incredibly difficult (but you do learn a ton academically from the rigor of the courses) and that the university is notorious for weeding out pre-meds due to grading on the bell curve. Currently, I plan on applying to MSTP programs for MD/PhD after completing my undergraduate degree. I know that for all of these MSTP programs, the average GPA is around a 3.8. Thus, I have been feeling nervous about earning a 3.8+ at Duke.

Now, I have maintained a 4.0 throughout my high school career and don't mind putting in the work for my classes. I fully expect to study anywhere between 6 to 10 hours a day at Duke amongst participating in other extracurriculars (as I am not into the party scene, etc.). However, I am also aware of the level of academic competition (i.e. students who attended very good college prep schools, international students, etc. who may skew the grading scale) present at Duke. I don't mind working very, very hard to earn top grades at the university - I just want to know if earning top grades is possible in weed out classes such as GenChem, OChem, and Physics.

Aside from this worry, I am super excited to go to Duke. I KNOW that I want to pursue an MD/PhD path and feel like the Duke name would be beneficial when applying to graduate programs (I hope?). I have published research in Cambridge youth journals and enjoy the intersection between clinical medicine and research. Additionally, I will likely be conducting research in the Duke Eye Center. It would just make me feel better to understand the realistic expectations for Duke coursework (as I do not want to be disadvantaged coming from a regular public school). Also, I was also wondering if Duke Medical School/MSTP program has a preference for Duke undergrads.

I would benefit greatly from other people's experiences as a pre-med at Duke (or other comparable schools). Any insight would be extremely helpful. Thank you so much!

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[Rachapkis]

You sound like a highly motivated student and that should serve you well. However, I recommend that you use this time to explore your interests. You may even find that you enjoy something more than medical research. As far as whether you can achieve a 3.8 at Duke, only time will tell. However, you should hold your head up high, regardless of GPA, as long as you tried your best. Because high achievers often seek loftier and loftier goals (HS leads to university leads to med school leads to . . .), many ultimately rise to a level (albeit a very high level) where they are average. Try your best, let the chips fall where they may, and try to enjoy the process.

 

[efle]

Duke isn't nearly as notorious for weedout and misery as the other biggest premed factories like WashU and Hopkins. But, the classes are still going to make all your high school APs feel like a joke in comparison.

Grind hard and hope you can come out above-average even in a student body of the top percentile. There's really no good way to predict or prepare for it. Be strategic with your course-loads (e.g. don't double up Ochem, Biochem and Physics all in one semester or anything like that) and stay on top of watching lectures so you don't have to try and blitz through weeks of material in the days before a test.

 

[willowseeker394]

Hi everyone,

I am planning on attending Duke in the fall for my undergraduate degree. I have heard that Duke classes are incredibly difficult (but you do learn a ton academically from the rigor of the courses) and that the university is notorious for weeding out pre-meds due to grading on the bell curve. Currently, I plan on applying to MSTP programs for MD/PhD after completing my undergraduate degree. I know that for all of these MSTP programs, the average GPA is around a 3.8. Thus, I have been feeling nervous about earning a 3.8+ at Duke.

Now, I have maintained a 4.0 throughout my high school career and don't mind putting in the work for my classes. I fully expect to study anywhere between 6 to 10 hours a day at Duke amongst participating in other extracurriculars (as I am not into the party scene, etc.). However, I am also aware of the level of academic competition (i.e. students who attended very good college prep schools, international students, etc. who may skew the grading scale) present at Duke. I don't mind working very, very hard to earn top grades at the university - I just want to know if earning top grades is possible in weed out classes such as GenChem, OChem, and Physics.

Aside from this worry, I am super excited to go to Duke. I KNOW that I want to pursue an MD/PhD path and feel like the Duke name would be beneficial when applying to graduate programs (I hope?). I have published research in Cambridge youth journals and enjoy the intersection between clinical medicine and research. Additionally, I will likely be conducting research in the Duke Eye Center. It would just make me feel better to understand the realistic expectations for Duke coursework (as I do not want to be disadvantaged coming from a regular public school). Also, I was also wondering if Duke Medical School/MSTP program has a preference for Duke undergrads.

I would benefit greatly from other people's experiences as a pre-med at Duke (or other comparable schools). Any insight would be extremely helpful. Thank you so much!

Duke med/mstp has a HUGE preference for undergrads! also from my experience duke is super collaborative and weeding out premeds is not a big thing at all.

 

[allie2274]

Duke med/mstp has a HUGE preference for undergrads! also from my experience duke is super collaborative and weeding out premeds is not a big thing at all.

Thank you so much! All of these responses are making me feel better

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

If you went to a very competitive HS and got 4.0 and carry same work ethic to Duke you should be fine.

 

[rball]

Just work hard to learn the material well and dont believe the hype. If you manage your time well, study hard and efficiently, and assuming you have a strong academic background, premed really isnt as bad as many online suggest. The key is just work hard and work smart and you’ll do well and have plenty of free time.

 

[allie2274]

Just work hard to learn the material well and dont believe the hype. If you manage your time well, study hard and efficiently, and assuming you have a strong academic background, premed really isnt as bad as many online suggest. The key is just work hard and work smart and you’ll do well and have plenty of free time.

Thank you so much! Puts my worries at ease

 

[efle]

Just work hard to learn the material well and dont believe the hype. If you manage your time well, study hard and efficiently, and assuming you have a strong academic background, premed really isnt as bad as many online suggest. The key is just work hard and work smart and you’ll do well and have plenty of free time.

I think how certain you can be that working hard = success with lots of free time left over, depends a lot on where exactly you're doing premed. Did you do premed at a top 20 college? And you didn't see anybody that was working hard and still struggling?

 

[rball]

I think how certain you can be that working hard = success with lots of free time left over, depends a lot on where exactly you're doing premed. Did you do premed at a top 20 college? And you didn't see anybody that was working hard and still struggling?

I did. I know you like to flaunt your pedigree around here, but I dont think that matters at all. In fact many state schools have it harder in terms of the curve vs top schools.

There were tons of people at my school working hard and struggling. In fact the weed out was insane in the first 2 years.

But most of these people didnt work smart (efficiently) or did not have a strong academic background. Working smart means finding a study strategy that is effective for your particular class. For example when I took orgo, initially tried to take notes from the book, memorize every little detail/pathway/reaction, etc and didn’t do as well. I saw so many students doing this too and most put in excess amounts of time and didnt do as well. Then, I decided to instead just read for understanding, do a metric ton of practice problems, and carefully analyze each problem and what I did wrong on each problem. I stopped worrying about trying to memorize every little detail. That was the approach the prof recommended. I did extremely well, and spent far less time studying too.

Bottom line is, if you treat school with an immense work ethic (ie you make it your number one priortiy), you work efficiently by optimizing your study strategy to your class, and you have a strong academic background, premed is not bad at all. It’s much easier than engineering at the undergrad level, which is partly why I think premeds have a bad reputation-they complain so much when so many of their peers have it harder.

 

[efle]

I did. I know you like to flaunt your pedigree around here, but I dont think that matters at all. In fact many state schools have it harder in terms of the curve vs top schools.

There were tons of people at my school working hard and struggling. In fact the weed out was insane in the first 2 years.

But most of these people didnt work smart (efficiently) or did not have a strong academic background. Working smart means finding a study strategy that is effective for your particular class. For example when I took orgo, initially tried to take notes from the book, memorize every little detail/pathway/reaction, etc and didn’t do as well. I saw so many students doing this too and most put in excess amounts of time and didnt do as well. Then, I decided to instead just read for understanding, do a metric ton of practice problems, and carefully analyze each problem and what I did wrong on each problem. I stopped worrying about trying to memorize every little detail. That was the approach the prof recommended. I did extremely well, and spent far less time studying too.

Bottom line is, if you treat school with an immense work ethic (ie you make it your number one priortiy), you work efficiently by optimizing your study strategy to your class, and you have a strong academic background, premed is not bad at all. It’s much easier than engineering at the undergrad level, which is partly why I think premeds have a bad reputation-they complain so much when so many of their peers have it harder.

Dude you're so out of touch with why you succeeded. I had plenty of friends that studied better, and more, and still couldn't break far enough above average. Imagine putting in the effort you did, and still not doing well enough.

THAT is what I'm talking about. If you didn't know anyone that experienced that, you just ran with an especially gifted circle. The majority of students at undergrads like WashU and Hopkins and Duke get weeded, and the majority of students at schools like these aren't lacking in effort or knowledge of how to study

 

[ObjectiveBoba]

THAT is what I'm talking about. If you didn't know anyone that experienced that, you just ran with an especially gifted circle. The majority of students at undergrads like WashU and Hopkins and Duke get weeded, and the majority of students at schools like these aren't lacking in effort or knowledge of how to study

I agree with these comments. I also attended a notorious weed-out undergraduate that is known for low grades, and the number of students who study 30-40 hours a week, go to TA office hours every week, talk with the professor after class, and still gets B's constitute probably 30-40% of our pre-med class (never mind those who gave up). I've never known a pre-med in my class who didn't treat it like a full-time job -- when everyone else is studying on Friday nights and weekends, you do it too. I know personally of at least ~10 people in my class who did all of the above and still decided not to pursue medicine because of poor grades, so there are probably ~100-110 people who I don't know personally but who just can't cut it (in context, there are some 120 pre-meds who finally decide to apply each year)

There are students who are just more gifted at taking exams/memorizing than you are, and there's just little you can do about it.

 

[efle]

There are students who are just more gifted at taking exams

Yeah this is what I was trying to imply. A good work ethic and knowing how to study (understanding not rote memorizing) is required, but not sufficient. The average student at these schools was top of their high school and top percentile on SAT/ACT, it's not some rare epiphany that you should "analyze what you did wrong" when preparing.

But the truth is on exam day in classes like Ochem and Physics and Calculus and Biochem, what gets measured isn't who did the most high quality prep. It's who can solve a high volume of very difficult puzzles in a very short time with very few errors. And call it what you want, whether it's "test taking ability" or just "smarts", but someone can put in crazy hours of high quality prep and have a great understanding of the material, and still get their ass kicked on test day by someone who is just better at what the test conditions are measuring. That's the unfortunate truth for these weedout classes where it isn't you versus the material, it's you versus your peers on the curve, and they also knew they needed to understand rather than memorize.

So I think it's ridiculous to promise people that if they work hard, they'll get good grades with plenty of time left over. If Rball went somewhere like Duke or WashU or Hopkins where a majority start out premed and most get weeded, and he found it very manageable to make good grades in classes like Orgo, he's just hella smart. Giving credit to study methods is a cop out, it's a gross mischaracterization of these student bodies to say half the premeds don't learn to study like he described.

And regarding that it wouldn't matter anyways because public schools have harsher curves to offset becoming more of an outlier: look at some of this data from the WashU prehealth office. When you line up performance on the MCAT, students with a 3.1 GPA outperform students with a 3.7 GPA in the rest of the nation. Same with 3.3 GPAs outperforming the national 3.9 GPA bin. You cannot look at that kind of gap and pretend that a WashU premed busting their ass and only making average B grades would be equally likely to get weeded out of Mizzou.

TL;DR: There are a ton of premeds that get weeded at Duke & co. who were doomed by the curved nature of classes and the abilities of their peers, rather than poor study efficiency, and many would have been doctors if they'd just taken a scholarship offer to a state school instead.

 

[deleted972488]

The majority of students at undergrads like WashU and Hopkins and Duke get weeded

This actually isn’t as exclusive to “top” schools as you might think. I went to undergrad at a small LAC and most of the premeds got weeded out there, too.

I actually TAUGHT classes for graduate school at one of the institutions you listed and I can honestly say that my classes at the small LAC were more difficult.

It’s just difficult to compare GPAs across institutions and, to some extent, within the same institution. Everyone knows there are easier and harder professors.

 

[efle]

This actually isn’t as exclusive to “top” schools as you might think. I went to undergrad at a small LAC and most of the premeds got weeded out there, too.

I actually TAUGHT classes for graduate school at one of the institutions you listed and I can honestly say that my classes at the small LAC were more difficult.

It’s just difficult to compare GPAs across institutions and, to some extent, within the same institution. Everyone knows there are easier and harder professors.

Well relative to graduate classes I'd expect pretty much any weedout is going to be harder. Grad level classes aren't set up the same way with hundreds of premeds all competing on a curve against each other. The difficulty of premed in curved weedout classes doesn't come from the material itself, it comes from the competition with the rest of the student body.

And while you definitely can't know for certain whether Major A at School X was more or less deflated than Major B at School Y, you can glimpse the general trend in data like what I posted. When the WashU students getting a 3.1 GPA are beating the national students getting a 3.7 GPA, it's pretty clear that getting mostly A's to be competitive for med school is going to be (on average) much harder at the former.

 

[deleted972488]

Well relative to graduate classes I'd expect pretty much any weedout is going to be harder. Grad level classes aren't set up the same way with hundreds of premeds all competing on a curve against each other. The difficulty of premed in curved weedout classes doesn't come from the material itself, it comes from the competition with the rest of the student body.

And while you definitely can't know for certain whether Major A at School X was more or less deflated than Major B at School Y, you can glimpse the general trend in data like what I posted. When the WashU students getting a 3.1 GPA are beating the national students getting a 3.7 GPA, it's pretty clear that getting mostly A's to be competitive for med school is going to be (on average) much harder at the former.

I meant that I taught the equivalent undergraduate pre-med course at the top institution and I know that it was more difficult at my small LAC. I am well aware that graduate courses are different and I wasn’t talking about those, but I realize my phrasing was unclear. I taught them as a requirement for graduate school, but they were undergraduate courses.

To address your concern in the second paragraph, a confounding variable is standardized test-taking ability. WUSTL only admits high schoolers with super high ACT/SAT scores. I agree with your overall conclusion that some schools have more challenging and competitive premed classes, but in my experience my small LAC was more challenging than the top institution.

 

[efle]

I meant that I taught the equivalent undergraduate pre-med course at the top institution and I know that it was more difficult at my small LAC. I am well aware that graduate courses are different and I wasn’t talking about those, but I realize my phrasing was unclear. I taught them as a requirement for graduate school, but they were undergraduate courses.

To address your concern in the second paragraph, a confounding variable is standardized test-taking ability. WUSTL only admits high schoolers with super high ACT/SAT scores. I agree with your overall conclusion that some schools have more challenging and competitive premed classes, but in my experience my small LAC was more challenging than the top institution.

But isn't "test-taking ability" or whatever anyone else wants to call it, the common factor? Whether its SAT/ACT, curved premed coursework exams, MCAT, curved med school multiple choice exams (if not a pass/fail school), Step1...it's all the same. It's all about who you're setting yourself up to be scored against. If your small LAC was curved coursework and was just as challenging as premed at Hopkins undergrad, then it's because your small LAC had students as smart and hardworking as Hopkins undergrad. And, by extension, the people who were average at your small LAC would have been well above median at a more typical school representative of the national average.

 

[deleted972488]

But isn't "test-taking ability" or whatever anyone else wants to call it, the common factor? Whether its SAT/ACT, curved premed coursework exams, MCAT, curved med school multiple choice exams (if not a pass/fail school), Step1...it's all the same. It's all about who you're setting yourself up to be scored against. If your small LAC was curved coursework and was just as challenging as premed at Hopkins undergrad, then it's because your small LAC had students as smart and hardworking as Hopkins undergrad. And, by extension, the people who were average at your small LAC would have been well above median at a more typical school representative of the national average.

Doing well on standardized tests and getting As in college classes require different skill sets. There is some overlap, for sure, but there’s a reason why adcoms consider both GPA and MCAT scores.

As for the rest, that was exactly my point. My small LAC, from my perspective, was more difficult than a top 20 institution. And there’s some data to support it, too. The average grade given at my small LAC is significantly lower than the average grade at the top institution where I’ve taught. Therefore, it’s difficult to compare GPAs across institutions, and prestige isn’t the only factor.

 

[efle]

Doing well on standardized tests and getting As in college classes require different skill sets. There is some overlap, for sure, but there’s a reason why adcoms consider both GPA and MCAT scores.

As for the rest, that was exactly my point. My small LAC, from my perspective, was more difficult than a top 20 institution. And there’s some data to support it, too. The average grade given at my small LAC is significantly lower than the average grade at the top institution where I’ve taught. Therefore, it’s difficult to compare GPAs across institutions, and prestige isn’t the only factor.

Felt the same to me.

And dont get me wrong, I dont think it's about prestige. Literally nobody has ever heard of Harvey Mudd for example, and that's way harder than any of the examples I've been naming. Meanwhile Brown is an Ivy and their average GPA is 3.7, so you just need to be average. None of this is exact.

But as a general rule, unless it's a top school that heavily inflates or an unknown one that heavily deflates, its going to be a lot tougher to make the necessary grades against the valedictorians with the top 1% SATs.

 

[Simsons2018]

How

Felt the same to me.

And dont get me wrong, I dont think it's about prestige. Literally nobody has ever heard of Harvey Mudd for example, and that's way harder than any of the examples I've been naming. Meanwhile Brown is an Ivy and their average GPA is 3.7, so you just need to be average. None of this is exact.

But as a general rule, unless it's a top school that heavily inflates or an unknown one that heavily deflates, its going to be a lot tougher to make the necessary grades against the valedictorians with the top 1% SATs.

do you find schools with heavy deflation or inflation
Any information on Washu ?

 

[efle]

How

do you find schools with heavy deflation or inflation
Any information on Washu ?

Word of mouth mostly though you can also find some information online. I went to WashU and can tell you the average grade given in science classes was a B / 3.0 and the majority of premedical students get weeded. On the opposite side of the spectrum if you google about Brown or Harvard grade distributions you'll find that the average is an A- / 3.7 and the most commonly awarded grade is an A / 4.0.

Some other notoriously miserable / deflated / weedout schools would be Hopkins undergrad, U Chicago, MIT, Cornell. Princeton used to have a strict anti-inflation policy where they capped the number of A grades at 33% but they had to get rid of that policy to stay competitive with inflating peers like Harvard, so they're probably not so bad any more.

 

[Bahdboy]

Word of mouth mostly though you can also find some information online. I went to WashU and can tell you the average grade given in science classes was a B / 3.0 and the majority of premedical students get weeded. On the opposite side of the spectrum if you google about Brown or Harvard grade distributions you'll find that the average is an A- / 3.7 and the most commonly awarded grade is an A / 4.0.

Some other notoriously miserable / deflated / weedout schools would be Hopkins undergrad, U Chicago, MIT, Cornell. Princeton used to have a strict anti-inflation policy where they capped the number of A grades at 33% but they had to get rid of that policy to stay competitive with inflating peers like Harvard, so they're probably not so bad any more.

I attend uchicago, and the weed out is massive. I also think Elfie has a point. I’m by no means smart, but I got a 1600/1600 sat and 4.0 gpa so far (college sophomore). In discussions with my peers , I can tell im not even that special, but the way tests are written and classes are graded just maximize my strengths. Others can be just as smart and study triple the amount I do, but simply are not good test takers. Idk why.

 

[efle]

I attend uchicago, and the weed out is massive. I also think Elfie has a point. I’m by no means smart, but I got a 1600/1600 sat and 4.0 gpa so far (college sophomore). In discussions with my peers , I can tell im not even that special, but the way tests are written and classes are graded just maximize my strengths. Others can be just as smart and study triple the amount I do, but simply are not good test takers. Idk why.

Dude I hate this, people have got to just own it and have a discussion grounded in reality, whether it comes off narcissistic or not. I was top of class at WashU with a 100th percentile MCAT, and it's because I'm smart. You're acing your way through UChicago premed, and it's because you're smart. When you take hundreds of national merit types and pit them against each other on difficult basic science exams, it's not possible to come out with straight A's otherwise. If someone is "smart but not as good at test taking" they should be advised to steer the hell clear, because that's the kind of smarts that get selected for by prereq exams, MCAT, med school exams, Step1, shelf exams, Step 2...you get the idea.

 

[Bahdboy]

Dude I hate this, people have got to just own it and have a discussion grounded in reality, whether it comes off narcissistic or not. I was top of class at WashU with a 100th percentile MCAT, and it's because I'm smart. You're acing your way through UChicago premed, and it's because you're smart. When you take hundreds of national merit types and pit them against each other on difficult basic science exams, it's not possible to come out with straight A's otherwise. If someone is "smart but not as good at test taking" they should be advised to steer the hell clear, because that's the kind of smarts that get selected for by prereq exams, MCAT, med school exams, Step1, shelf exams, Step 2...you get the idea.

Lol I just didn’t want to come across as cocky but you’re right. Better to just have an honest and grounded conversation. There are so many people (I see it ALL the time) who come to uchicago who waste so much money and study their asses off but eventually get weeded out. So you really need to be honest with yourself and recognize your limits and do some deep soul searching to decide whether premed is for you, cuz if not, theres a lot of pain, wasted time, and wasted money in your future.