incompetent DOs

[ayushman80]

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Just wanted to start off by saying that this thread/post isn't a generalization of all DOs. As a matter of fact, I just got done interviewing at DMU and I really think that I may pursue the DO option. I have also seen a lot of DOs that are excellent. Anyways, I was shadowing an MD a couple of months ago. He was a very competent, skilled, and respected physician. There were also 2 DOs in the same office. After talking to him and getting his opinion, he told me that DOs weren't that respected and I should attend an MD school if I can.

I asked him why he thought what he did? We talked about the performance of the two DOs. One had been working there for several years and was disliked by EVERYONE in the office. For example, one of his patients was a terminally ill comatose patient with no family. He insisted on putting her on multiple medications to prolong her life (btw. she was 94 years old).

The other DO, a female, one had just finished her family medicine residency and joined the group. She was incharge of a delivery and totally messed it up. After delivering she ignored the fact that the baby wasn't breathing properly and turning blue!!! Another doctor had to step in and helped the baby. That was just one of many incidents. The other physicians went to the hospital board and had her banned from deliveries due to her inability to do her job.

On a similar topic he told me that DO residency programs in general were not viewed to be as rigorous as MD programs. He also said that DOs not practicing OMM further discredits their philosophy.

I can't say that I completely disagree with his assessment. There are many many wonderful DOs out there who are equally skillful as their MD counterparts. However, there are soooo few DOs out there that even the one or two incompetent ones make the whole philosophy look bad. It seems to me that DOs really have to work twice as hard in order to further that philosophy. What do you guys think that the AOA, medical schools, and residency programs need to do to make stronger osteopathic physicians? And what can be done to weed out these eccentric and/or incompetent physicians?

 

[MedStudentWanna]

What do you guys think that the AOA, medical schools, and residency programs need to do to make stronger osteopathic physicians?

Stop you from getting in?

 

[MossPoh]

I don't think that has jack to do with MD or DO. There are competent and incompetent people every walk of life. The entire office hating a guy is not because he is a DO. It is because he is probably a douchebag, last time i checked the MCAT and Boards didn't test for that.

I'll be surprised if this thread isn't shut down real fast.

 

[ayushman80]

Stop you from getting in?

very mature. This is a real issue. I didn't start this thread to be a MD vs DO. I saw a real issue out there and wanted to get people's opinion. The fact is that since DOs are only 6% of the physician population, every little bit affects US (yes, I want to be a DO). I actully believe in the osteopathic philosophy and have family members who are DOs. And I want to see tha philosophy thrive. But when a couple of bad apples affect the whole pool it makes me just a little upset and makes me want to change things for the better.

The fact is, first impressions matter and they last a very long time. If a person has never worked with a DO and then runs across a DO who isn't up to par that casts a bad impression on all the hardworking and skilled osteopaths out there. If I end up going to a osteopathic school I am going to work as hard as humanly possible to further the philosophy that I dedicated my life to. One of the things that can be done to further the philosophy is to be good what you do. The other could be more ethics training/interaction training in school etc...

 

[Gold 5]

Just wanted to start off by saying that this thread/post isn't a generalization of all DOs. As a matter of fact, I just got done interviewing at DMU and I really think that I may pursue the DO option. I have also seen a lot of DOs that are excellent. Anyways, I was shadowing an MD a couple of months ago. He was a very competent, skilled, and respected physician. There were also 2 DOs in the same office. After talking to him and getting his opinion, he told me that DOs weren't that respected and I should attend an MD school if I can.

I asked him why he thought what he did? We talked about the performance of the two DOs. One had been working there for several years and was disliked by EVERYONE in the office. For example, one of his patients was a terminally ill comatose patient with no family. He insisted on putting her on multiple medications to prolong her life (btw. she was 94 years old).

The other DO, a female, one had just finished her family medicine residency and joined the group. She was incharge of a delivery and totally messed it up. After delivering she ignored the fact that the baby wasn't breathing properly and turning blue!!! Another doctor had to step in and helped the baby. That was just one of many incidents. The other physicians went to the hospital board and had her banned from deliveries due to her inability to do her job.

On a similar topic he told me that DO residency programs in general were not viewed to be as rigorous as MD programs. He also said that DOs not practicing OMM further discredits their philosophy.

I can't say that I completely disagree with his assessment. There are many many wonderful DOs out there who are equally skillful as their MD counterparts. However, there are soooo few DOs out there that even the one or two incompetent ones make the whole philosophy look bad. It seems to me that DOs really have to work twice as hard in order to further that philosophy. What do you guys think that the AOA, medical schools, and residency programs need to do to make stronger osteopathic physicians? And what can be done to weed out these eccentric and/or incompetent physicians?

I am posting before the mods shut this thread down for trolling!

Funny,
I had an allopathic physician that I shadowed and recommended that I apply to Osteo along with Allopathic. After working with both in his mind their was no difference in the practicing world. You can be a lousy doctor with both an MD or DO behind your name!

 

[Limvostov]

I don't think that has jack to do with MD or DO. There are competent and incompetent people every walk of life. The entire office hating a guy is not because he is a DO. It is because he is probably a douchebag, last time i checked the MCAT and Boards didn't test for that.

I agree... there are incompetent people everywhere. I currently work at a pharmaceutical company and a hospital and have seen both DO's and MD's (though I have only seen DO's at the hospital). From what I gather no one has time to check your badge and look for the DO or MD. If you are kind, thorough, humble, and good at listening and observing you will be respected and well liked. I have seen mistakes made by both types of physicians and like any other job its all about how you handle those mistakes and how you treat your patients and coworkers. You can be one of the best cardiac surgeons in the world with an MD from an Ivy league school and if you are a total jerk no one will respect you. Unless ofcourse they happen to be the CEO of the small company you work for and have the power to make your position disapeer, but in the hospital this would not fly.

 

[tkim]

Just wanted to start off by saying that this thread/post isn't a generalization of all DOs. As a matter of fact, I just got done interviewing at DMU and I really think that I may pursue the DO option. I have also seen a lot of DOs that are excellent. Anyways, I was shadowing an MD a couple of months ago. He was a very competent, skilled, and respected physician. There were also 2 DOs in the same office. After talking to him and getting his opinion, he told me that DOs weren't that respected and I should attend an MD school if I can.

How, as a premed, can you determine the competency of a physician? If those DO's in his group practice aren't that competent or respected, yet they work there, what does that tell you about his group?

I asked him why he thought what he did? We talked about the performance of the two DOs. One had been working there for several years and was disliked by EVERYONE in the office. For example, one of his patients was a terminally ill comatose patient with no family. He insisted on putting her on multiple medications to prolong her life (btw. she was 94 years old).

Without a clear direction from the patient before going comatose, the rule to support life. Unless, you think that one physician can arbitrarily decide to terminate life support because that's what they think is the right thing to do.

The other DO, a female, one had just finished her family medicine residency and joined the group. She was incharge of a delivery and totally messed it up. After delivering she ignored the fact that the baby wasn't breathing properly and turning blue!!! Another doctor had to step in and helped the baby. That was just one of many incidents. The other physicians went to the hospital board and had her banned from deliveries due to her inability to do her job.

On a similar topic he told me that DO residency programs in general were not viewed to be as rigorous as MD programs. He also said that DOs not practicing OMM further discredits their philosophy.

Did this DO complete a DO residency?

I can't say that I completely disagree with his assessment. There are many many wonderful DOs out there who are equally skillful as their MD counterparts. However, there are soooo few DOs out there that even the one or two incompetent ones make the whole philosophy look bad. It seems to me that DOs really have to work twice as hard in order to further that philosophy. What do you guys think that the AOA, medical schools, and residency programs need to do to make stronger osteopathic physicians? And what can be done to weed out these eccentric and/or incompetent physicians?

It's called grades, COMLEX, specialty boards, and disciplinary boards.

Your line of thought is weak. Had you shadowed a DO with two MD's in the same practice, and were told by the DO that the MD's were disliked and incompetent, would you have the same reaction and generalize to the degree you have or just chalk it up to individuals. I'm guessing the latter.

 

[DrMidlife]

...I was shadowing an MD a couple of months ago....

You have a sample size of 1. Shadow more physicians, or get more exposure to medicine, and you'll collect many more anecdotes about good and crappy doctors of all kinds (DO, MD, white, not white, male, not male, etc). Until you have broad exposure, these stories are just anecdotes. Meaning you'd be dim to draw conclusions from them. Just as the physician you shadowed is dim to draw conclusions from his N=2 sample.

 

[MossPoh]

This is flaming up quite nicely. I'm feeling pretty toasty by the fire.

 

[ayushman80]

How, as a premed, can you determine the competency of a physician? If those DO's in his group practice aren't that competent or respected, yet they work there, what does that tell you about his group?



Without a clear direction from the patient before going comatose, the rule to support life. Unless, you think that one physician can arbitrarily decide to terminate life support because that's what they think is the right thing to do.



Did this DO complete a DO residency?



It's called grades, COMLEX, specialty boards, and disciplinary boards.

Your line of thought is weak. Had you shadowed a DO with two MD's in the same practice, and were told by the DO that the MD's were disliked and incompetent, would you have the same reaction and generalize to the degree you have or just chalk it up to individuals. I'm guessing the latter.

You make some really great points. I hadn't thought about disciplinary boards. However, I did say that this issue is much more pronouced because there are far fewer DOs out there. I've seen some useless MDs also. But since I have had a lot more interaction with other good MDs I know better. I was also reading a couple of JAOA articles on the issue that I just posted about. I am not sure I agree with you that people don't look at your degree. If someone has a bad experience with a doctor the first thing they do is find out more about the doctor and then tell their friends not to go there.

 

[Limvostov]

I enjoy a fruitless argument every now and then, and this one is going to be fun to watch.

 

[lpressley130]

Opinions mean very little in the great scheme of things. MD doesn't guarantee competence; DO doesn't guarantee competence. The incident you mention about the 94 year old patient occurs in hospitals and nursing homes everywhere - and the same suggestion can come from a DO or an MD. I'm sure there are many horror stories that can be shared about incidents occurring in the clinical setting; incidents caused by MDs and DOs. I think the MDs perception of DO programs is a bit shortsighted and antiquated. You have to take comments like that with a grain of salt, think about the big picture and move on.

 

[ayushman80]

You have a sample size of 1. Shadow more physicians, or get more exposure to medicine, and you'll collect many more anecdotes about good and crappy doctors of all kinds (DO, MD, white, not white, male, not male, etc). Until you have broad exposure, these stories are just anecdotes. Meaning you'd be dim to draw conclusions from them. Just as the physician you shadowed is dim to draw conclusions from his N=2 sample.

Actually I have been around medicine pretty much my whole life. My parents are physicians and so is my sister (a DO). I have also worked with many military physicians. So my sample size is a little bigger than n=1. I also haven't drawn any conclusions, I was simply asking for opinions. I am also well aware of the fact, and stated so in my original post, that there are many excellent DO and MD physicians out there.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

So what seems to be the problem? A doctor you shadowed, who may or may not be biased, and/or an ass hole, doesn't like two DO's he works with. Therefore, every osteopathic school in this country, many of which have been producing quality docs for quite some time, including members of your family, need to make some serious changes. For what reason? To impress this one guy?

 

[MossPoh]

Opinions mean very little in the great scheme of things. MD doesn't guarantee competence; DO doesn't guarantee competence. The incident you mention about the 94 year old patient occurs in hospitals and nursing homes everywhere - and the same suggestion can come from a DO or an MD. I'm sure there are many horror stories that can be shared about incidents occurring in the clinical setting; incidents caused by MDs and DOs. I think the MDs perception of DO programs is a bit shortsighted and antiquated. You have to take comments like that with a grain of salt, think about the big picture and move on.

That incident happened to my grandma a few months ago. She was 97 and accepted going. The MDs (there arent too many DOs in my parts) decide to keep her going for a while. One did a surgery on her leg, despite the fact she was essentially kept comatose because of pain. It is far more common than anyone cares to admit.

 

[Bacchus]

Why are you even listening to what this MD said to you when you have 3 osteopathic physicians in your family? Are they incompetent? Should they not be practicing?

Its a case by case basis, not a degree by degree basis.

 

[singinfifi]

Man. I totally feel you. When I was shadowing, I shadowed this great doctor who worked in a practice with these two others. He told me how nobody in the office respected the other two doctors in the practice, and how incompetent they were.

When we were talking about me going to medical school, he pointed out that both these doctors were women, and that if I wanted to be taken seriously as a doctor, I should get a sex change operation as soon as possible. Partly, the reason for this is that in residency, women aren't treated the same as men and have a WAY easier time.

The surgery is hard to schedule though, hopefully, I'll be all set by the time I graduate.

 

[J1515]

Actually I have been around medicine pretty much my whole life. My parents are physicians and so is my sister (a DO). I have also worked with many military physicians.

Are you competing to replace my sig line?

 

[TexasTriathlete]

Man. I totally feel you. When I was shadowing, I shadowed this great doctor who worked in a practice with these two others. He told me how nobody in the office respected the other two doctors in the practice, and how incompetent they were.

When we were talking about me going to medical school, he pointed out that both these doctors were women, and that if I wanted to be taken seriously as a doctor, I should get a sex change operation as soon as possible. Partly, the reason for this is that in residency, women aren't treated the same as men and have a WAY easier time.

The surgery is hard to schedule though, hopefully, I'll be all set by the time I graduate.

Don't get the penis too big. I am told that it is hard to deal with.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Just wanted to start off by saying that this thread/post isn't a generalization of all DOs. As a matter of fact, I just got done interviewing at DMU and I really think that I may pursue the DO option. I have also seen a lot of DOs that are excellent. Anyways, I was shadowing an MD a couple of months ago. He was a very competent, skilled, and respected physician. There were also 2 DOs in the same office. After talking to him and getting his opinion, he told me that DOs weren't that respected and I should attend an MD school if I can.

I asked him why he thought what he did? We talked about the performance of the two DOs. One had been working there for several years and was disliked by EVERYONE in the office. For example, one of his patients was a terminally ill comatose patient with no family. He insisted on putting her on multiple medications to prolong her life (btw. she was 94 years old).

The other DO, a female, one had just finished her family medicine residency and joined the group. She was incharge of a delivery and totally messed it up. After delivering she ignored the fact that the baby wasn't breathing properly and turning blue!!! Another doctor had to step in and helped the baby. That was just one of many incidents. The other physicians went to the hospital board and had her banned from deliveries due to her inability to do her job.

On a similar topic he told me that DO residency programs in general were not viewed to be as rigorous as MD programs. He also said that DOs not practicing OMM further discredits their philosophy.

I can't say that I completely disagree with his assessment. There are many many wonderful DOs out there who are equally skillful as their MD counterparts. However, there are soooo few DOs out there that even the one or two incompetent ones make the whole philosophy look bad. It seems to me that DOs really have to work twice as hard in order to further that philosophy. What do you guys think that the AOA, medical schools, and residency programs need to do to make stronger osteopathic physicians? And what can be done to weed out these eccentric and/or incompetent physicians?

You know, I was going to mock/flame etc, but I'll take the high road and just make a few comments. I think you are about the ten billionth person on SDN to drop the 'I shadowed a doctor who said ...' line. People use it as a defense to everything. Examples: ' Not true, I shadowed an orthopod who makes a million a year,' or ' I shadowed over two physicians and one of the two said X med school is bad, etc etc etc. Now, based on those two comments, one could assume - by the logic you've used - that doctors make a million a year and X school of medicine is horrible.

See how these are just specific examples or OPINIONS? Definitely not fact, nor should they really weigh in on you. The doc could have had various, various reasons for making those statements (too many to even list), but the fact is that it is his opinion, nothing more. It's no secret that DO schools do an excellent job producing competent physicians, in fact, 99% of the arguments pre-meds make, of course while taking a break from WOW to comment on SDN, is that DOs have limited residency options and the general public isn't well informed about DOs. Neither of these situations apply to your doc - as he is in the medical profession and working in the same practice, so once again, it's just one opinion - and a pathetic ' I'm burned out on medicine ' one at that. The fact is that there are good and bad doctors on both the MD and DO side of the coin, and it has little to do with the letters on their white coat. DMU (as you said you interviewed there) is a fantastic institution, and you can become a great physician with the DO behind your name. Good luck.

 

[scpod]

.... The other DO, a female, one had just finished her family medicine residency and joined the group. She was incharge of a delivery and totally messed it up. After delivering she ignored the fact that the baby wasn't breathing properly and turning blue!!! Another doctor had to step in and helped the baby....

Don't know how many deliveries you've been in on, but once the baby is out someone else always takes care of the baby. The person delivering is responsible for the mother-- not the baby.

You really need to forget the crap about DOs living up to their philosophy. In reality, DOs are simply physicians. The "philosophy" stuff is virtually non-existant in actual practice. Remember when you talked about "many DOs" who are "equally skillful" as MDs? That kind of thinking shows me that you already have a bias, although it may be unconscious, against DOs. Just because you are an MD doesn't make you "skillful" at all.

There are systems in place to get rid of bad practitioners, whether they be DOs or MDs. I have no idea what you mean by a "stronger osteopathic physician." Actually, I'm not really sure what your post is even meant to do in the first place.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Anyways, I was shadowing an MD a couple of months ago. He was a very competent, skilled, and respected physician.

Except that he runs down his colleagues in front of presumed strangers. That "respect" probably won't last too long.

 

[J1515]

Actually, I'm not really sure what your post is even meant to do in the first place.

Do you really not know?

 

[zenlike]

We need to sticky this thread.

 

[BCLumas]

Except that he runs down his colleagues in front of presumed strangers. That "respect" probably won't last too long.

👎 That's what I wanted to say!!

 

[DrWBD]

My personal experience, with an admittedly limited sample size, is that DOs doing primary care are more likely to be incompetent if they come from AOA residencies.

(not trying to be inflammatory, just adding my POV)

 

[Limvostov]

All of the DO's I have met have told me to try my best for an MD residency. Sample size is small... as in 6 DO's total from pediatrics, family practice, emergency, and orthopedic surgery. However, I can understand why they say this because you will not be the only physician applying for your first position and if you have come from an AOA residency it may not carry the same weight as someone coming from an MD residency. It has less to do with competency than with hospital familiarity. Like any job, your scholastic background does matter (especially for the first job because scholastic background is all you have) and then your personality, references, and ability to interview comes into play.

I have been part of the interviewing panel for new members in my research department. I do play more of mild listeners role and don't have much to say about who does and does not get hired because of my limited experience and lack of PhD or MD, but I have seen the process. The last person we hired for further developing our lead drug compound had to compete against many people and we almost didn't even interview him because he obtained his medical education in India. He was even up against a guy from Stanford who turned out to be quite arrogant and subsequently had a short interview. The group I work with has members from Columbia, Hopkins, Emory, and Penn State. The best doctors from this group are the ones that are nice people as well as good doctors.

Being open-minded, working well with your coworkers, giving your best effort, consulting your colleagues for guidance, respecting those above and below you... there are so many things that are common sense to being a good physician and a good employee for that matter. You can be good at what you do and still be considered a poor physician if you can't respect or listen to others, but like anything in life credentials do matter to some degree.

 

[BCLumas]

Instead of worrying about residency programs and match day, why don't you first decide what is important to you. It is really annoying to read the generic "I'm not trying to start the MD v DO war" and the "I'm starting to like the DO approach" excuses. If you feel that only certain letters behind your name will make you a competent and respectable physician, then do not waste your time applying the Osteopathic route. Medical school is far too stressful on a daily basis to sit around and worry about what your reputation will be like if you graduate with a "DO" behind your name.

If you are seriously worried about getting THAT residency spot, whatever it may be, and truly do not care about the letters behind your name, then take my advice in this EXACT order:

1. Do well at your Undergraduate institution
2. Do well on your MCAT
3. Apply to Medical School
4. Get accepted
5. Attend a school that is the best fit for you
6. Study
7. Do well on your exams your first semester
8. Study
9. Do well on your exams your second semester
10. Study
11. Do well on your exams your third semester
12. Study
13. Do well on your exams your fourth semester
14. Study
15. Do well on your board exam
16. Study
17. Preform well on your third year rotations
18. Study
19. Do well on your board exams
20. Study
21. Preform well on your fourth year rotations

Simple, eh? That does not include any letters of recommendation and whatnot; it simply says to get your butt into school and worry about it later.

If you're that worried about being negatively thought of as a DO, don't apply to any DO schools. Best advice.

Good luck.

 

[ILikeFood]

I want a career in medicine and could care less about perception. If people are put off by the DO degree because of this thread, then all the better. More spots for me.

 

[igcgnerd]

:troll:

 

[J-Rad]

I recently graduated from a military pediatrics residency. In my program the only person not to complete the residency was an MD. The last person who failed to pass boards the first try out of residency was an MD (we had had a 100% pass rate for the previous 4-5 yrs). The only people I know of who repeated rotations were MDs. I know of one surgical specialty residency that had a 5th year who was not going to graduate-MD as well (the DOs in the program, one of who was this past year's chief were doing fine to my knowledge). Another residency that we work with a lot had one person put into probationary status for a while-another MD; DOs doing fine in that residency and I think a DO chosen for one the chief spots for this year. As a precepting resident the only med studs that I thought were possibly going to fail or who I thought had some major issues (usually presentation/organization skills) were MDs. The only residents in my program who were considered lazy or social ******s by the ancillary staff (and probably some of the other residents and attendings) were MDs. On the other hand, after my first year two of the three graduating 3rd yrs selected to go on to competetive fellowships were DOs. This past year our chief was a DO and was by all measures not only brilliant, but was an outstanding pediatrician-one of the best to graduate in recent years (he was also rumored to have gotten the highest COMLEX1 score in the country when he took it. And he was someone I trusted fully with my kids). I (also a DO) am starting my fellowship in a competetive specialty as well. So my N is as big as the other "N"s on this thread. What am I to make of it? That clearly DOs are superior and MDs are idiots? I make nothing of it but happenstance. In addition to the above (aside from this past year's chief) the resident who had the biggest influence on my practice of medicine (for teaching me great lessons of humility to go along with knowledge) was an MD. This past year's intern class was unusually strong, including the one DO. While the weakest member of that class was an MD, the most award winning was also an MD. And I liked this class of 9MDs and 1DO a lot. The one who is not only brilliant but is preternaturally kind and caring of her patients is-guess what-an MD. The majority of my mentors were MDs.
Frankly the OP is right. The perception exists in part because of our fewer numbers. If a black family of five move into BFE, Maine, population 900 (all white) and raise hell, do you think that the locals are gonna think they're douchebags, in part, because they're black. I'd bet so. If the Whites, white family of five move in and raise hell, do think people will think it's because they're white? But as someone who went through DO school and residency, I can tell you that I did not meet the "perception" often (really at all). I've been asked what a DO was, I think, twice-once by a nurse. Nobody ever had a problem with me treating their kids or their patients because DO was sewn on my jacket. The flip side of the original premise is also true: the DO resident in a program who is a superstar, or who is just a solid trustworthy resident who does right by their patients and by their colleagues will start to create a new perception. If a few more people who graduated from that DO school (or another DO school) come in and are solid performers, DOs get a reputation-and not a bad one. I do think that the osteopathic profession has some issues to deal with (discussed ad nauseum in other threads) but I've never gotten wrapped around the axle about perceptions.

 

[EastWestN2grt]

I recently graduated from a military pediatrics residency. In my program the only person not to complete the residency was an MD. The last person who failed to pass boards the first try out of residency was an MD (we had had a 100% pass rate for the previous 4-5 yrs). The only people I know of who repeated rotations were MDs. I know of one surgical specialty residency that had a 5th year who was not going to graduate-MD as well (the DOs in the program, one of who was this past year's chief were doing fine to my knowledge). Another residency that we work with a lot had one person put into probationary status for a while-another MD; DOs doing fine in that residency and I think a DO chosen for one the chief spots for this year. As a precepting resident the only med studs that I thought were possibly going to fail or who I thought had some major issues (usually presentation/organization skills) were MDs. The only residents in my program who were considered lazy or social ******s by the ancillary staff (and probably some of the other residents and attendings) were MDs. On the other hand, after my first year two of the three graduating 3rd yrs selected to go on to competetive fellowships were DOs. This past year our chief was a DO and was by all measures not only brilliant, but was an outstanding pediatrician-one of the best to graduate in recent years (he was also rumored to have gotten the highest COMLEX1 score in the country when he took it. And he was someone I trusted fully with my kids). I (also a DO) am starting my fellowship in a competetive specialty as well. So my N is as big as the other "N"s on this thread. What am I to make of it. That clearly DOs are superior and MDs are idiots? I make nothing of it but happenstance. In addition to the above (aside from this past year's chief) the resident who had the biggest influence on my practice on medicine (for teaching me great lessons of humility to go along with knowledge) was an MD. This past year's intern class was unusually strong, including the one DO. While the weakest member of that class was an MD, the most award winning was also an MD. And I liked this class of 9MDs and 1DO a lot. The one who is not only brilliant but is preternaturally kind and caring of her patients is-guess what-an MD. The majority of my mentors were MDs.
Frankly the OP is right. The perception exists in part because of our fewer numbers. If a black family of five move into BFE, Maine, population 900 (all white) and raise hell, do you think that the locals are gonna think they're douchebags, in part, because they're black. I'd bet so. If the Whites, white family of five move in and raise hell, do think people will think it's because they're white? But as someone who went through DO school and residency, I can tell you that I did not meet the "perception" often (really at all). I've been asked what a DO was, I think, twice-once by a nurse. Nobody ever had a problem with me treating their kids or their patients because DO was sewn on my jacket. The flip side of the original premise is also true: the DO resident in a program who is a superstar, or who is just a solid trustworthy resident who does right by their patients and by their colleagues will start to create a new perception. If a few more people who graduated from that DO school (or another DO school) come in and are solid performers, DOs get a reputation-and not a bad one. I do think that the osteopathic profession has some issues to deal with (discussed ad nauseum in other threads) but I've never gotten wrapped around the axle about perceptions.

👍👍nice!

 

[flumazenil]

okay as you can see its saturday night and i have a hell of a social life- that is why i am on this site..anyways...shelf exam monday havent started studying ( no really i am serious)

ANYWAYS... I am a MS IV MD student. I happened to see what the original poster had wrote and I was disgusted with the original poster here is why.

1) original poster should realize the difference between subjectiveness and objectiveness. It is common sense to most people, and the fact that the original poster asked such a question ,makes me question his/her thought processesing. A scientific mind such as an aspiring physician SHOULD seek to find the truth. What does he mean by "incompetent"? He heard this from 1 physician? can he give other examples?

This is what you said
"After talking to him and getting his opinion, he told me that DOs weren't that respected and I should attend an MD school if I can"

That one query was enough for you to start a thread?
I have a little pearl for you. As you go on through your medical training you will hear countless bogus and nonbogus claims from attendings, students, patients, profs etc. Every damn patient and doctor will want to throw their 2 cents at you.
You have to think first. What if that attending said " New York City hospitals are poorly run, and no one respects NYC hospitals"
would you 1) beleive it 2) deny it 3) question it, and try to gain more evidence based on OBJECTIVE evidence not comming from biases.

You also said " And what can be done to weed out these eccentric and/or incompetent physicians?"

What the hell kind of question is that? Incompetent/eccentric?
I think you should worry about yourself first. Based on the questions you are posting, I think you should look at yourself first.

I think a future competent physician would ask the question " what I can do to make myself better so I can serve my patients to the best of my abilities?"

 

[mshheaddoc]

You really need to forget the crap about DOs living up to their philosophy. In reality, DOs are simply physicians. The "philosophy" stuff is virtually non-existant in actual practice.

Then maybe this needs to be addressed by the AOA and the medical schools that taut this as a key "difference". I happen to agree with just that one statement he said. It's a double edge sword for the "DO philosophy" either way and I personally think they are screwing themselves but that is for another thread.

I think everyone has their own views of what they have seen and experienced as pre-meds, med students, residents, physicians, and even non-students or a patient. I also don't think it should be automatically discounted because they aren't an attending. I have to say, what I've been told about some osteopathic residencies compared to allopathic residencies the quality of teaching and the residents themselves don't impress me. Remember, you can't always compare residencies apples to apples either because there are many different types of environments that might work better for you than for someone else. And I'm not bashing to all DO residencies, but a few extremely subpar ones that I have heard feedback from current/recent residents. Go into the medical student/residency forums and get feedback for yourself by reading (read: Don't bother PMing me for info - make you're own informed decision) ... but also, take what you read with a grain of salt because I don't believe everything I read on the internet.

Just like there are some dud MD residencies, there are some dud DO residencies. Only differences? The DO residencies can't fill their spots by taking foreign residents - so those "fill" stats are useless. So depending on career goals on where you want to practice (and the politics involved) some would take (and this has been discussed ad nausem in other forums) a MD residency over a DO residency any day since the "perceived" quality is better. Is it really? As I said, there is no ranking system for that in place so you can't really compare apples and oranges, especially with the state of osteopathic medicine today.

But anyway, I have to say to the OP's story, it's one doc's view and I can guarantee that its flawed. As with everything else in life, gossip rules all. Just like on this forum. Just arm yourself with information going in and you'll be fine in whatever decision you decide with your career. It's this type of misinformation that lead the pre-med in here absolutely bonkers. As I said, you can respect one's viewpoint, but that doesn't make it a truth. Much of what you hear from others on and off this forum might not be as objective as you think. Keep that in mind.

Oh and PS ... I agree with J-Rad that perception of "MD's are better" does exist due to skewed numbers of MDs vs DOs. And of course, many old school and foreign MD's/MBBS whatever they have will think this way too ...

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

The chairman of physical medicine at Harvard is a DO.

The chairman of orthopedic surgery at Dartmouth is a DO.

The chairman of radiation oncology at Toledo is a DO.

The co-director of the spine clinic at the University of Wisconsin is a DO.

If DO's are good enough for Harvard, Dartmouth, Toledo and Wisconsin that's good enough for me.👍

 

[Lokhtar]

There is certainly a perception that many AOA primary care residencies are subpar.

Whether that is true or not, I am not qualified to answer, but as with a lot of things on the internet, you take it with a grain of salt.

 

[adismo]

the first DO was doing the right thing. those nursing home patients spill over into the ER's and ICU's of residency programs, ensuring a constant flow of patients which get septic, fall, become full codes, and at 02:55 am go apneic. ensuring lots of cases for interns and residents to work on

as for the second DO, sounds like the MD is at fault for hiring a FP without solid obgyn /peds training. which casts more doubt on the MD as a employer and judge of medical ability.

also, who gives a f what you think?

 

[engineeredout]

Frankly the OP is right. The perception exists in part because of our fewer numbers. If a black family of five move into BFE, Maine, population 900 (all white) and raise hell, do you think that the locals are gonna think they're douchebags, in part, because they're black. I'd bet so. If the Whites, white family of five move in and raise hell, do think people will think it's because they're white? But as someone who went through DO school and residency, I can tell you that I did not meet the "perception" often (really at all). I've been asked what a DO was, I think, twice-once by a nurse. Nobody ever had a problem with me treating their kids or their patients because DO was sewn on my jacket. The flip side of the original premise is also true: the DO resident in a program who is a superstar, or who is just a solid trustworthy resident who does right by their patients and by their colleagues will start to create a new perception. If a few more people who graduated from that DO school (or another DO school) come in and are solid performers, DOs get a reputation-and not a bad one. I do think that the osteopathic profession has some issues to deal with (discussed ad nauseum in other threads) but I've never gotten wrapped around the axle about perceptions.

I think this needs to be stickied at the top of the forum, and anyone else who brings up the topic again should be shot.

 

[J-Rad]

as for the second DO, sounds like the MD is at fault for hiring a FP without solid obgyn /peds training. which casts more doubt on the MD as a employer and judge of medical ability.

This is a good point. Many FP programs, regardless of ACGME, AOA, or dual status have high variability in the amount of peds training especially (not as sure about the variability of OB training). This physician's performance may be more a comment on that. If you are hiring for an FP position requiring a high facility with OB and peds (esp. identifying and stabilizing a critically ill neonate) your selectivity should extend to things more important to your practice than whether it was a DO residency.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

James Weinstein, Dartmouth

http://dms.dartmouth.edu/faculty/facultydb/view.php?uid=220

Ross Zafonte, Harvard

http://spauldingrehab.org/staffprofile,uid=444

John Feldmeier, Toledo

http://hsc.utoledo.edu/depts/radther/feld.html

James Leonard, Wisconsin

http://findadoctor.uwhealth.org/findadoctor/Provider.action?_sourcePage=/results.jsp&id=6698

 

[ayushman80]

I think this needs to be stickied at the top of the forum, and anyone else who brings up the topic again should be shot.

Holy cow people??! This wasn't an MD vs DO topic at all! People are disgusted because I asked a question?? WTF!!!??? This is a public forum people. That means that new people are going to be coming up and asking the same types of questions in a different way over and over again. That is how people learn. If you got flamed by your instructors or peers every single time you asked a legit question, pretty soon you would be disillusioned by the whole medical system. If this topic has been discussed to darn much, why aren't people just ignoring the thread?
If someone had brought up a topic about another type of discrimination or preception of another kind, I bet it would not have received the same type of negative response.

As for some of the other posters who have commented about my experience:
1) My parents are FMGs and my sister is a DO. And I know that they all faced some diffculties when obtaining a residency. I am neither right now, but I want to have lots of information so that I can make a decision as to where I want to go.
2) I am not basing my question on the one MDs opinion. I have talked to several and I am well aware that many DOs are respected. I simply asked a question about preception. Many MDs that I have talked to (in wisconsin, Georgia, south carolina) have expressed negative views about DOs. I am not saying that their views are valid. As a matter of fact I know they are wrong. However, I simply asked what you think can be done to change a preception.
3) I am not the one who called the two DOs eccentric/incompetent. It was the other physicians. As with any profession there are going to be these discussions in the office. I simply overheard and talked to people becuase I am going to shortly have to make a decision that will effect my entire life.
4) If this topic is not an issue anymore, why did the JAOA recently have an article for changing the DO degree's name to MD, DO? Yes, the argument is old, but it is still a problem that needs to be delt with. Until DOs are 15-40%+ of the physician population I think this debate will remain.
5) To the gentleman who thinks that I need to look at myself first. I already have and I know where I stand and what my work ethic is. Maybe you should read the post, and understand that I wasn't degrading anyone. It was about making a profession better. I doubt you would have had such a strong reaction if I would have been talking about MDs.
6) Preception is reality people. As soon to be physicians I would hope that some of you people who've been so negative have realized this. Controlling preception is almost as important as doing your job.

I want to thank those posters who actually understood my argument and gave a thoughtful response. I hope that I get to work with people like you in the future (wheather I am a DO, MD).

 

[iluvmed&ba6eekh]

I can't say that I completely disagree with his assessment. There are many many wonderful DOs out there who are equally skillful as their MD counterparts. However, there are soooo few DOs out there that even the one or two incompetent ones make the whole philosophy look bad. It seems to me that DOs really have to work twice as hard in order to further that philosophy. What do you guys think that the AOA, medical schools, and residency programs need to do to make stronger osteopathic physicians? And what can be done to weed out these eccentric and/or incompetent physicians?

Being a better physician is up to the student. You can put someone through the best med school program on this earth, and it still really doesn't ensure that he/she will be a strong physician. If the student can't do his/her part, that's where the problem lies.

It's been pointed out earlier--just do your part (for instance, STUDY) to make sure that you become the best doctor you can be, and you'll find that all of what you're worrying about right now won't really be that much of a concern anymore, in regards to residencies and the like.

As for weeding out incompetent physicians, this shouldn't be directed just at DO programs. There are incompetent MD's out there, too. It's been said a zillion times, a physician's competency has nothing to do with the letters that follow his/her name. A physician's competency has to do with what's explained above.

Plus, make sure you have your priorities straight. You motivation to work "twice as hard" (doesn't make sense anyway...in this profession, you have to always work your hardest, no excuses) shouldn't be to better people's perception of the degree you earned, it should be because their lives depend on how competent you will be as their doctor.

If you really truly want to be a doctor, you shouldn't be concerned about this issue as much as you are. Or maybe you should stick to the MD path.

Otherwise, I think you're asking a question which really can't be answered.

 

[spicedmanna]

Many MDs that I have talked to (in wisconsin, Georgia, south carolina) have expressed negative views about DOs. I am not saying that their views are valid. As a matter of fact I know they are wrong. However, I simply asked what you think can be done to change a preception.

Yes. The most local change (and where you should start) is by being the best damn DO you can be. DO's have minority representation in the world of physicians, as we well know. Therefore, it is even more critical that we be the best examples possible. That's a good and powerful place to start. After that, if you have the inclination, be a big player in the AOA and start making radical changes.

Preception is reality people. As soon to be physicians I would hope that some of you people who've been so negative have realized this. Controlling preception is almost as important as doing your job.

I respectfully disagree with you, Sir. Perception is not objective reality; it is subjective and therefore depends on the perceiver and the lens through which he or she views the world (and we all view the world through certain inherent biases; it's unavoidable, whether we are aware of it or not). If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's that nobody has a lock on the truth. I won't deny that there is something to be learned from these negative perceptions (although much of it is probably simply due to baseless judgment), but it's important to realize that how someone perceives you can be, and is indeed more often, about them than about you. Therefore, while someone's perception may provide lessions for me, they are not necessarily what's real or true for me.

To the gentleman who thinks that I need to look at myself first. I already have and I know where I stand and what my work ethic is. Maybe you should read the post, and understand that I wasn't degrading anyone. It was about making a profession better. I doubt you would have had such a strong reaction if I would have been talking about MDs.

Perhaps not. However, it is evident that you have an unconscious belief that DO's are not equal to MD's. That's fine, actually. I have no judgment about that. I think it is natural to make this assumption in the light of the "separate, but equal" party-line. That's why I don't support that line of thinking. In practice, DO's are no different than MD's, except that we receive training in OMM, which most of us do not end up using. There is no different philosophy that isn't common sense principle, which all physicians acknowledge at this point in time.

My opinion is that the only remaining distinction is OMM, which receives a lot of criticism because modern medicine is firmly rooted in evidence at this point in time. This allows critics to view OMM as something akin to witchcraft. Indeed, as a scientist, I can't help but think of some of the practices that way, too. For example, I'm quite dubious about cranial OMM. I am open to checking it out, nevertheless. On the other hand, a lot of OMM is also common sense and I can see it's utility as adjunctive therapy.

Anyway, for what it's worth, I do think the AOA needs to address the GME issue and stop opening up new schools, so that the focus can go into improving what we already have. I also think that the whole degree-change thing is a trap, or at the very best, a boobie-prize. There are more radical and influential changes we can make.

 

[scpod]

....Maybe you should read the post, and understand that I wasn't degrading anyone. It was about making a profession better. I doubt you would have had such a strong reaction if I would have been talking about MDs....

There you go making assumptions, which is a very bad idea in medicine. You have turned your post into an MD vs. DO thing by repeating the words of someone else who, I am led to believe, has a questionable character. The big problem that I have with your post is that you have taken the words of a physician who publicly denigrates his colleagues (doesn't matter if they're MD or DO) and apparently hold his opinion in high esteem. Why else would you repeat it in this forum? The fact that this MD has a problem with a couple of DOs does not mean there is a problem with the system. It means there is a problem with a certain MD who should probably keep his mouth closed more often.

YOU can only make the profession better once you become a part of it and rally for changes with your colleagues. Bringing up this stuff in an anonymous forum, without some constructive idea or plan is just a big waste of time. It makes for a really good bitch session, but nothing good will ever come from it.

 

[Dakayus]

I wish I could flame, but it's been done already so I'll just answer your questions as trite as possible.

What do you guys think that the AOA, medical schools, and residency programs need to do to make stronger osteopathic physicians?

They're doing fine (some tweaking happens here and there).

And what can be done to weed out these eccentric and/or incompetent physicians?

Some people fake their intentions very well in interviews as well as PS. They're in MD and DO.

Honestly I think you're the stereotypical pre-med with a bunch of ideas, but are not into medicine enough to fully know what you're getting into.

Just do this. If you love people and think medicine is the appropriate job for you, then by all means pursue it.

 

[J1515]

Believe it or not, the opinion expressed by this un-named MD is quite a bit more prevalent than you want to believe.

Perhaps at your hospital. It depends where you go, as you well know.

 

[MaximusD]

And that's precisely my point. Most hospitals do not have a DO majority, but they do usually have a handful. So it's not uncommon at all to hear anti-DO comments from random MDs, especially if the few representatives from the DO community are less-than-stellar.

I'm not agreeing with the sentiment, I'm just tired of hearing the naive comments from the OMS set about how everyone loves DOs and agrees that they are equivalent to MDs. Flaming the premed who repeats what an MD told him doesn't do anything to counteract the stereotypes; it just tells the premed that Osteopath students are out of touch with reality.

How has that reality effected DOs? The truth is that there is not a single competent DO that I've met who has trouble getting patients or with referrals. The reality is actually much to the contrary, in my experience.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I'm not agreeing with the sentiment, I'm just tired of hearing the naive comments from the OMS set about how everyone loves DOs and agrees that they are equivalent to MDs. Flaming the premed who repeats what an MD told him doesn't do anything to counteract the stereotypes; it just tells the premed that Osteopath students are out of touch with reality.

I think the point is that one comment from one MD shouldn't be the end all ... especially when numerous people on this board have brought into question the complaints and questionable professional attitude the doctor had. This question was also raised on the Osteopathic boards, a pro-DO response (and a true one at that) is not shocking, nor should it bother you. If you have personal experience with incompetent DOs, I think sharing the experience would give more weight to any form of argument.

 

[MaximusD]

You all should probably avoid flaming the premeds who come in here with questions like this. After all, according to your logic, he's not "into medicine enough" to really get it. So he got it from someone else, who is. And what he got was a trashing of the DO community. But mixed in with the reasonable counterpoints, is the typical flaming from the overzealous osteopath students who just can't believe that anyone short of Satan himself would have anything negative to say about their degree.

Also, let me suggest that you as a DO student working in (presumably) predominantly-DO hospitals don't really have a whole hell of a lot more street cred than this premed. Believe it or not, the opinion expressed by this un-named MD is quite a bit more prevalent than you want to believe.

How would you explain the fact that a prominent (read: HUGE in the field) MD Radiation Oncologist in Philly suggested PCOM to me over other (unnamed) MD schools in the area?

He's not young either... not by a long shot.

I am done feeding into this argument. It is ridiculous and it is based on a non-issue. As I've said there are NO DOs that I know of who have trouble finding case-load. I'm not in this for the prestige, nor should anyone who is entering the medical profession.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

At the ER where I worked, which is the nation's busiest Level II trauma center, soon to make the move to Level I, nobody gave a **** who was an MD and who was a DO.

We were the site for the ER residents from BAMC and Darnell to do their trauma stuff, and probably half of them are DO's. We also have IM and FM residents in and out of there who are DO's. And we have several attendings who are DO's. One of them is amazingly bad, but nobody attributes it to being a DO. The rest of them are outstanding.

There are a lot of places in this world where nobody gives a ****.