incompetent DOs

[gtleeee]

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There you go making assumptions, which is a very bad idea in medicine. You have turned your post into an MD vs. DO thing by repeating the words of someone else who, I am led to believe, has a questionable character. The big problem that I have with your post is that you have taken the words of a physician who publicly denigrates his colleagues (doesn't matter if they're MD or DO) and apparently hold his opinion in high esteem. Why else would you repeat it in this forum? The fact that this MD has a problem with a couple of DOs does not mean there is a problem with the system. It means there is a problem with a certain MD who should probably keep his mouth closed more often.

YOU can only make the profession better once you become a part of it and rally for changes with your colleagues. Bringing up this stuff in an anonymous forum, without some constructive idea or plan is just a big waste of time. It makes for a really good bitch session, but nothing good will ever come from it.

That for me was the most disturbing thing about the original post. As a Physician in practice for a quarter of a century (D.O.), in Emergency Medicine, I can think of few actions more reprehensible than an Attending Physician making such comments to anyone unless it were in the context of a strictly confidential conversation with a colleague as a prelude to formally requesting an investigative process via the Hospital Medical Staff at the next Staff meeting. This would be a prelude to possible disciplinary action by the Medical Staff Credentials and/or the Professional Conduct Committee. This would be justified if blatant examples of medical incompetence were observed.

If this "doc's" comments were verified (in the context this collegiate states they were), he himself might well find himself standing before this same committee. The fact he made such damming comments to a little college student he barely knew about other physicians in his own group is an act so appalling it staggers belief. Says a lot about that guy's professional ethics. It almost makes me incredulous that it really happened. Only mental illness or a flawed character devoid of any sense of professional ethics could explain this. And if that is the case, for me, it negates the comment out of hand as per serious factual consideration..

R.N.s (in an informal sense) make casual comments (ordinarily in discreet fashion) to one another concerning their perceptions of other nurses or medical staff. This will never change. And it is not really considered by anyone as that big a deal.

For an Attending Physician to utter what to me qualifies as a "rank obscenity" to this little student is an abomination. Of course, the student did not know this, and why should he. He is not in the medical profession and did not realize what a lowlife this doc was by virtue of his violating time honored ethical standards all of us as as physicians are expected to uphold.

 

[MaximusD]

So you once met an MD who advised PCOM over other MD schools.

Oh okay, obviously I'm wrong, and there is zero MD bias against DOs anywhere. My bad.

Haha that's not what I said at all. C'mon Tired.. I know we fight over this issue but we get along other than these DO/MD posts. Give me some credit and I'll try to return the favor.

What I'm conveying is that there are likely some biased MDs who are biased for the sake of it. You can't help ignorance, but it does exist.

If you want to become a DO, pre-osteos, do so. There will always be people in this world who are less-than-impressed by something about you. The most important thing is to have pride in yourself, your work, and be happy for what you've accomplished. I think that the osteopathic medical profession is an excellent entry point into the medical profession.

I also think that the argument which claims that because DO schools have lower averages in MCAT and GPA, their students and physicians are inferior. The fact is that the applicant pool is well-qualified FAR BEYOND those allowed into MD and DO schools. You don't need to be an A student with a 95th percentile score on the MCAT to be an outstanding physician. It doesn't take genius... it just takes a moderate amount of intelligence and some hard work.

So to come back to the point, it all comes down to confidence in yourself. If an MD gets to you because they scoff at your degree (THIS WOULD BE A RARITY), smile and shrug it off because they are ignorant to all that you and your profession has accomplished.

 

[JaggerPlate]

So you once met an MD who advised PCOM over other MD schools.

Oh okay, obviously I'm wrong, and there is zero MD bias against DOs anywhere. My bad.

So this example is absurd, but when the OP once met an MD who advised him not to attend a DO school, there is profound DO bias in the medical world???

I've always respected/enjoyed your posts Tired, but this just seems ironic to me.

 

[JaggerPlate]

That for me was the most disturbing thing about the original post. As a Physician in practice for a quarter of a century (D.O.), in Emergency Medicine, I can think of few actions more reprehensible than an Attending Physician making such comments to anyone unless it were in the context of a strictly confidential conversation with a colleague as a prelude to formally requesting an investigative process via the Hospital Medical Staff at the next Staff meeting. This would be a prelude to possible disciplinary action by the Medical Staff Credentials and/or the Professional Conduct Committee. This would be justified if blatant examples of medical incompetence were observed.

If this "doc's" comments were verified (in the context this collegiate states they were), he himself might well find himself standing before this same committee. The fact he made such damming comments to a little college student he barely knew about other physicians in his own group is an act so appalling it staggers belief. Says a lot about that guy's professional ethics. It almost makes me incredulous that it really happened. Only mental illness or a flawed character devoid of any sense of professional ethics could explain this. And if that is the case, for me, it negates the comment out of hand as per serious factual consideration..

R.N.s (in an informal sense) make casual comments (ordinarily in discreet fashion) to one another concerning their perceptions of other nurses or medical staff. This will never change. And it is not really considered by anyone as that big a deal.

For an Attending Physician to utter what to me qualifies as a "rank obscenity" to this little student is an abomination. Of course, the student did not know this, and why should he. He is not in the medical profession and did not realize what a lowlife this doc was by virtue of his violating time honored ethical standards all of us as as physicians are expected to uphold.

👍

 

[UCFMOP]

That for me was the most disturbing thing about the original post. As a Physician in practice for a quarter of a century (D.O.), in Emergency Medicine, I can think of few actions more reprehensible than an Attending Physician making such comments to anyone unless it were in the context of a strictly confidential conversation with a colleague as a prelude to formally requesting an investigative process via the Hospital Medical Staff at the next Staff meeting. This would be a prelude to possible disciplinary action by the Medical Staff Credentials and/or the Professional Conduct Committee. This would be justified if blatant examples of medical incompetence were observed.

If this "doc's" comments were verified (in the context this collegiate states they were), he himself might well find himself standing before this same committee. The fact he made such damming comments to a little college student he barely knew about other physicians in his own group is an act so appalling it staggers belief. Says a lot about that guy's professional ethics. It almost makes me incredulous that it really happened. Only mental illness or a flawed character devoid of any sense of professional ethics could explain this. And if that is the case, for me, it negates the comment out of hand as per serious factual consideration..

R.N.s (in an informal sense) make casual comments (ordinarily in discreet fashion) to one another concerning their perceptions of other nurses or medical staff. This will never change. And it is not really considered by anyone as that big a deal.

For an Attending Physician to utter what to me qualifies as a "rank obscenity" to this little student is an abomination. Of course, the student did not know this, and why should he. He is not in the medical profession and did not realize what a lowlife this doc was by virtue of his violating time honored ethical standards all of us as as physicians are expected to uphold.

This is the kind of doctor I want to be.

P.S I am not trying to suck up.

 

[J1515]

And I agree with your point.

My problem is that this forum is rife with threads that go like this. (1) Premed relates story of MD who says DOs suck, and wants to know if that opinion is common.

You know as well as I do that most of the time the OP of threads like that are trolling and already have their preconceived biases. That is what ruffles feathers around here. Someone who is open minded asking for an honest opinion will get one.

 

[AliveNkickin]

At the ER where I worked, which is the nation's busiest Level II trauma center, soon to make the move to Level I, nobody gave a **** who was an MD and who was a DO.

We were the site for the ER residents from BAMC and Darnell to do their trauma stuff, and probably half of them are DO's. We also have IM and FM residents in and out of there who are DO's. And we have several attendings who are DO's. One of them is amazingly bad, but nobody attributes it to being a DO. The rest of them are outstanding.

There are a lot of places in this world where nobody gives a ****.

Thanks for the real-life example and perspective. 👍

 

[ayushman80]

You know as well as I do that most of the time the OP of threads like that are trolling and already have their preconceived biases. That is what ruffles feathers around here. Someone who is open minded asking for an honest opinion will get one.

I have no preconceived biases, sir. And the fact that many people automatically considered me a troll shows that they are the ones with the preconceived biases about people. This decision is going to affect the rest of my life, as well as many others, and I have to make an informed decision. How many pre-med students at a university can I actually talk to who would have any clue about this? ZERO!!! Like Tired said above, most of the comments saying that there is no baised against DOs come from settings where DOs are larger in numbers. This isn't the case everywhere. I have no idea where I am going to practice. It simply behooves me to get a larger sample of opinion, from pre-meds as well as residents/attendings, before I make any decision.

Again, thank you to the fellows/residents/sdners who gave your honest opinion. I appreciate it.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Coming onto the PRE-OSTEO forum on SDN is not going to help you make an INFORMED DECISION about whether or not DO's are competent in their fields of medicine. Granted, this forum provides a wealth of information that is mostly based on opinions with some facts through in the mix. Think about it you are asking a question to individuals who have little or no exposure to what its like in a real practice setting. If you are truely interested in making an INFORMED DECISION then how about you research hospitals where DO's are the minority of practicing physicians in a particular hospital. IMHO, this is the only way YOU are going to make an informed decision about your path to medicine. Personally, I believe choosing to go the DO route is for people who really don't care about what initials are behind their name. And that includes everything DO's may or may not face in their careers.

 

[spicedmanna]

Well, I doubt you are trolling, since I've seen and dealt with my share here. However, whatever your original intentions, the overall tone of your original and subsequent posts on this thread lead me to think that you are unaware of the biases that you are coming to the table with, which as I stated earlier, are perfectly understandable, given the conflict between what is and the propaganda perpetuated by certain parties. Until there is a consensus about the group and the majority has moved past their ego to come to terms with what is, this sticking point will continue to drive confusion and bias. I think that this is indeed one of the take home points of the thread, so I thank you for drawing it out.

Also, you seem, to me, to be suspiciously "innocent" in all this. Look at the result of your original post; it is actually quite telling. You had a hand in creating the result and thus cannot claim that you are not responsible, in some way, for it. Yes, it would behoove you to exam, if it interests you, how you created this result. It could be useful in future endeavors, professional and personal. It is not useful to claim that you didn't play a hand in the result. You learn nothing from that. Instead, my recommendation is that you open your mind and get curious about what unconscious attitudes you might be harboring and try to get to the root of them. It seems to me that you unconciously view DO's as being unequal to MD's. Again, I think that's perfectly fine. I'm sure there are a myriad of reasons to think that way, including the crap that the particular medical doctor you shadowed spewed onto you. What's important to me is that you get conscious of your underlying attitudes and either confirm them as true for you, or shift yourself into other ones which may be more true to you, but don't sit here and deny that you don't think that you share some of the attitudes and biases that you revealed through the medical doctor you shadowed, or that you have no preconceived biases.

There is of course bias and prejudice in the medical profession and, yes, there is certainly bias and prejudice against DO's. There are several reasons for this, some of which we, as a group can work to resolve, and others that we have little to no control over. One clear reason is that DO's represent, at this time, a minority of physicians. Being the minority group lends itself to attitudes such as you have described and alluded to. There is usually that risk associated with being in a minority group. Nevertheless, I can tell you that I have encountered very little of this bias, particularly to the extent where it has impacted me in some significant way. Most everyone I've worked with has been exceedingly professional and we all tend to focus on the very critical task at hand, that is, managing patients. Of course, I am not privvy to what is being said behind my back, but I also don't give a damn, as long as it doesn't interfere with my ability to do my job. However, it is probably good to note that my skin is probably a bit thicker for such things than some people's might be, since I grew up having to deal with real issues of bias and discrimination.

Anyway, you have to decide whether it's worth it for you to be a part of this minority group and all of the stuff that comes with it. Obviously, I decided it was the right move for me, but it's not for everyone. People will always try to judge you; they'll pick out one thing or another, depending on what they come to the table with. If it's not the letters after your name, it'll be something else. That being the case, I decided long ago that I wouldn't allow my fears of people's perception of me, especially irrational ones, determine my choices. They may influence my choices, but I don't allow them to decide what I eventually do.

Good luck with your decision and education process. I wish you clear vision and much success in whatever you do.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Well, I doubt you are trolling, since I've seen and dealt with my share here. However, whatever your original intentions, the overall tone of your original and subsequent posts on this thread lead me to think that you are unaware of the biases that you are coming to the table with, which as I stated earlier, are perfectly understandable, given the conflict between what is and the propaganda perpetuated by certain parties. Until there is a consensus about the group and the majority has moved past their ego to come to terms with what is, this sticking point will continue to drive confusion and bias. I think that this is indeed one of the take home points of the thread, so I thank you for drawing it out.

Also, you seem, to me, to be suspiciously "innocent" in all this. Look at the result of your original post; it is actually quite telling. You had a hand in creating the result and thus cannot claim that you are not responsible, in some way, for it. Yes, it would behoove you to exam, if it interests you, how you created this result. It could be useful in future endeavors, professional and personal. It is not useful to claim that you didn't play a hand in the result. You learn nothing from that. Instead, my recommendation is that you open your mind and get curious about what unconscious attitudes you might be harboring and try to get to the root of them. It seems to me that you unconciously view DO's as being unequal to MD's. Again, I think that's perfectly fine. I'm sure there are a myriad of reasons to think that way, including the crap that the particular medical doctor you shadowed spewed onto you. What's important to me is that you get conscious of your underlying attitudes and either confirm them as true for you, or shift yourself into other ones which may be more true to you, but don't sit here and deny that you don't think that you share some of the attitudes and biases that you revealed through the medical doctor you shadowed, or that you have no preconceived biases.

There is of course bias and prejudice in the medical profession and, yes, there is certainly bias and prejudice against DO's. There are several reasons for this, some of which we, as a group can work to resolve, and others that we have little to no control over. One clear reason is that DO's represent, at this time, a minority of physicians. Being the minority group lends itself to attitudes such as you have described and alluded to. There is usually that risk associated with being in a minority group. Nevertheless, I can tell you that I have encountered very little of this bias, particularly to the extent where it has impacted me in some significant way. Most everyone I've worked with has been exceedingly professional and we all tend to focus on the very critical task at hand, that is, managing patients. Of course, I am not privvy to what is being said behind my back, but I also don't give a damn, as long as it doesn't interfere with my ability to do my job. However, it is probably good to note that my skin is probably a bit thicker for such things than some people, since I grew up having to deal with real issues of bias and discrimination.

Anyway, you have to decide whether it's worth it for you to be a part of this minority group and all of the stuff that comes with it. Obviously, I decided it was the right move for me, but it's not for everyone. People will always try to judge you; they'll pick out one thing or another, depending on what they come to the table with. That being the case, I decided long ago that I wouldn't allow my fears of people's perception of me, especially irrational ones, determine my choices. They may influence my choices, but I don't allow them to decide what I eventually do.

Good luck with your decision and education process. I wish you clear vision and much success in whatever you do.

Well said👍👍

 

[J1515]

I have no preconceived biases, sir. And the fact that many people automatically considered me a troll shows that they are the ones with the preconceived biases about people. This decision is going to affect the rest of my life, as well as many others, and I have to make an informed decision. How many pre-med students at a university can I actually talk to who would have any clue about this? ZERO!!! Like Tired said above, most of the comments saying that there is no baised against DOs come from settings where DOs are larger in numbers. This isn't the case everywhere. I have no idea where I am going to practice. It simply behooves me to get a larger sample of opinion, from pre-meds as well as residents/attendings, before I make any decision.

Again, thank you to the fellows/residents/sdners who gave your honest opinion. I appreciate it.

So then your best bet is to talk to DO residents and DO attendings who have actually experienced this stuff first hand. Not an MD resident who only goes by what he hears, not a bunch of pre-meds who just repeat what the other one tells them.

 

[firecoins]

. You can be a lousy doctor with both an MD or DO behind your name!

Wow! You can be a lousy doctor after attending medical school...twice. Probably should have learned the first time through.

 

[DannMann99]

Leave him along guys

I wanted to be a doctor... but i've decided a long time ago that I did not want to be competent at my life's work... Therefore, I'm attending a Osteopathic school... Woo PCOM 2012!

 

[JaggerPlate]

Leave him along guys

I wanted to be a doctor... but i've decided a long time ago that I did not want to be competent at my life's work... Therefore, I'm attending a Osteopathic school... Woo PCOM 2012!

ROFLMAO 👍

 

[MaximusD]

Well, I doubt you are trolling, since I've seen and dealt with my share here. However, whatever your original intentions, the overall tone of your original and subsequent posts on this thread lead me to think that you are unaware of the biases that you are coming to the table with, which as I stated earlier, are perfectly understandable, given the conflict between what is and the propaganda perpetuated by certain parties. Until there is a consensus about the group and the majority has moved past their ego to come to terms with what is, this sticking point will continue to drive confusion and bias. I think that this is indeed one of the take home points of the thread, so I thank you for drawing it out.

Also, you seem, to me, to be suspiciously "innocent" in all this. Look at the result of your original post; it is actually quite telling. You had a hand in creating the result and thus cannot claim that you are not responsible, in some way, for it. Yes, it would behoove you to exam, if it interests you, how you created this result. It could be useful in future endeavors, professional and personal. It is not useful to claim that you didn't play a hand in the result. You learn nothing from that. Instead, my recommendation is that you open your mind and get curious about what unconscious attitudes you might be harboring and try to get to the root of them. It seems to me that you unconciously view DO's as being unequal to MD's. Again, I think that's perfectly fine. I'm sure there are a myriad of reasons to think that way, including the crap that the particular medical doctor you shadowed spewed onto you. What's important to me is that you get conscious of your underlying attitudes and either confirm them as true for you, or shift yourself into other ones which may be more true to you, but don't sit here and deny that you don't think that you share some of the attitudes and biases that you revealed through the medical doctor you shadowed, or that you have no preconceived biases.

There is of course bias and prejudice in the medical profession and, yes, there is certainly bias and prejudice against DO's. There are several reasons for this, some of which we, as a group can work to resolve, and others that we have little to no control over. One clear reason is that DO's represent, at this time, a minority of physicians. Being the minority group lends itself to attitudes such as you have described and alluded to. There is usually that risk associated with being in a minority group. Nevertheless, I can tell you that I have encountered very little of this bias, particularly to the extent where it has impacted me in some significant way. Most everyone I've worked with has been exceedingly professional and we all tend to focus on the very critical task at hand, that is, managing patients. Of course, I am not privvy to what is being said behind my back, but I also don't give a damn, as long as it doesn't interfere with my ability to do my job. However, it is probably good to note that my skin is probably a bit thicker for such things than some people's might be, since I grew up having to deal with real issues of bias and discrimination.

Anyway, you have to decide whether it's worth it for you to be a part of this minority group and all of the stuff that comes with it. Obviously, I decided it was the right move for me, but it's not for everyone. People will always try to judge you; they'll pick out one thing or another, depending on what they come to the table with. If it's not the letters after your name, it'll be something else. That being the case, I decided long ago that I wouldn't allow my fears of people's perception of me, especially irrational ones, determine my choices. They may influence my choices, but I don't allow them to decide what I eventually do.

Good luck with your decision and education process. I wish you clear vision and much success in whatever you do.

Are you my even-tempered SDN twin?

 

[MaximusD]

Leave him along guys

I wanted to be a doctor... but i've decided a long time ago that I did not want to be competent at my life's work... Therefore, I'm attending a Osteopathic school... Woo PCOM 2012!

Dann... I think I know who you are

 

[Bleurberry]

Stop you from getting in?

I shouldn't laugh but that was funny!
Simple-minded questions beget simple-minded answers, no?

 

[JaggerPlate]

This thread blew a month ago ... no bumping.

 

[The Letter J]

Bad docs are bad docs. DO or MD. Anyone, especially a physician, who is going generalize a whole group of people based on the actions of a couple of people is a total tool.

 

[johnniewalker11]

.

 

[yaba]

After talking to him and getting his opinion, he told me that DOs weren't that respected and I should attend an MD school if I can.

What a douche bag

 

[bigyihoroi]

I am shadowing a D.O. now and, seriously, she's smart and possibly better than many M.D. that I have worked with. She works in a clinic that specializes in OMT and patients who visit her regularly had been working with her for at least couple years and some over 10 years or 20 years (and Yes, I am not making this up). And I didn't say this - the patients were telling me that this D.O. really know her ****.

And this was what one of the many patients told me, " I don't care whether the doctor is an MD or DO cuz it makes no difference to me. When I walk into the hospital or clinic, I don't care what da heck kinda degree you are holding or whether you graduate from Harvard or not. I am sure that all doctors whether MD or DO knows what they need to treat my symptoms. All I care is whether you show real care and concern about my health." And yes, I did not say that, it's truly said by the patients (and not just one that I talked to) from the clinic that I shadowed at.

For those D.O. that ppl refer to as incompetent, they either really sux or they just don't have very good residency program. But seriously, there are a lot of MD that are also incompetent, irresponsible, and providing poor quality of care.

 

[ILikeFood]

I am shadowing a D.O. now and, seriously, she's smart and possibly better than many M.D. that I have worked with. She works in a clinic that specializes in OMT and patients who visit her regularly had been working with her for at least couple years and some over 10 years or 20 years (and Yes, I am not making this up). And I didn't say this - the patients were telling me that this D.O. really know her ****.

And this was what one of the many patients told me, " I don't care whether the doctor is an MD or DO cuz it makes no difference to me. When I walk into the hospital or clinic, I don't care what da heck kinda degree you are holding or whether you graduate from Harvard or not. I am sure that all doctors whether MD or DO knows what they need to treat my symptoms. All I care is whether you show real care and concern about my health." And yes, I did not say that, it's truly said by the patients (and not just one that I talked to) from the clinic that I shadowed at.

For those D.O. that ppl refer to as incompetent, they either really sux or they just don't have very good residency program. But seriously, there are a lot of MD that are also incompetent, irresponsible, and providing poor quality of care.

I don't believe you.

DO's are incompetent! You hear that, you premeds with the ridiculous stats! Don't apply DO!

Leave the spots for me.

 

[NPEMTIV]

I asked him why he thought what he did? We talked about the performance of the two DOs. One had been working there for several years and was disliked by EVERYONE in the office.

So he's a tool? Have you never met an MD tool? I have! Personality is unrelated to profession. Proves nothing.....

For example, one of his patients was a terminally ill comatose patient with no family. He insisted on putting her on multiple medications to prolong her life (btw. she was 94 years old).

Everyone deserves to live, regardless of their family situation. He following that 'Do no harm' principle. Should he have let her die?

The other DO, a female, one had just finished her family medicine residency and joined the group. She was incharge of a delivery and totally messed it up. After delivering she ignored the fact that the baby wasn't breathing properly and turning blue!!! Another doctor had to step in and helped the baby.

Now I do see a fault here on the doctor's side. Why as a family practitioner was she performing the job of an OB? That isn't the wisest decision; however, I also question the validity of her 'ignoring' cyanosis of the neonate. Most neonates are cyanotic for a few minutes as their ductus arterosis closes and the new circulation pattern begins.

That was just one of many incidents. The other physicians went to the hospital board and had her banned from deliveries due to her inability to do her job.

Again, I have to question the validity of this statement. If every board banned a physician from practice because of an error then there wouldn't be any practicing physicians. Plus, it usually has to be proven that there was harm done to the patient. Cyanosis probably wouldn't count.

On a similar topic he told me that DO residency programs in general were not viewed to be as rigorous as MD programs.

This seems like his (or the OPS) opinion to me. I've yet to meet anyone who has expressed this belief. There ARE physicians (both MD/DO) that find particular residencies inadequate, etc...but it's typically deeper than whether its ACGME or OGME certified.

He also said that DOs not practicing OMM further discredits their philosophy.

This seals the deal!! It's obvious to me with this statement that this particular physician doesn't understand the tenants of osteopathic medicine.

What do you guys think that the AOA, medical schools, and residency programs need to do to make stronger osteopathic physicians? And what can be done to weed out these eccentric and/or incompetent physicians?

There is always room for improvement; however, no methodology will be able to eliminate all 'incompetent' persons within a profession. This is true regardless of what profession you are in (MD/DO/PA/NP/RN/McDonalds/Etc...)

 

[NPEMTIV]

Are you competing to replace my sig line?

HAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!! Funniest post I've seen in a long time!

 

[ph34r]

When I was about 8 years old, my father was diagnosed with cancer. However, it was by a doctor (M.D.) that had waited a year to do any tests prior to my father's frequent complaints of pain in his abdomen and leg. His only advice was to take tylenol. By the way, he was under an HMO at the time. One year later, he passed away. We did try to sue the HMO, as well as the physician, but back in '92, it was extremely difficult to win such cases. Now, I'm not putting down M.D.'s, because I still really admire and respect them. What I am saying, just like everyone has been saying, is that whether a person has an M.D. or a D.O. behind his name will not make him a good physician. It is ultimately up to the person. In addition, the business side of medicine also has a big influence on decisions that some physicians make. Incentives can play a big role on how physicians treat their patients. There is a lot more to it than just the degree a person has.

 

[DannMann99]

I think it depends on the physician really.

I when I first got accepted to PCOM i was seeing a neurologist, my parents had no idea what a DO was and were very skeptical about me getting into it.

My neuro went to haneman (sp) which is also in philly. She completely validated the degree and said it was a very good school.

I told her i got a 27 on my MCATs too and she had no idea what that even meant.

the physician was middle aged too. But then again, I've heard numerous times that PCOM students do as good or better then the other med students in philly (temple, drexel, jeff)

 

[JaggerPlate]

When I was about 8 years old, my father was diagnosed with cancer. However, it was by a doctor (M.D.) that had waited a year to do any tests prior to my father's frequent complaints of pain in his abdomen and leg. His only advice was to take tylenol. By the way, he was under an HMO at the time. One year later, he passed away. We did try to sue the HMO, as well as the physician, but back in '92, it was extremely difficult to win such cases. Now, I'm not putting down M.D.'s, because I still really admire and respect them. What I am saying, just like everyone has been saying, is that whether a person has an M.D. or a D.O. behind his name will not make him a good physician. It is ultimately up to the person. In addition, the business side of medicine also has a big influence on decisions that some physicians make. Incentives can play a big role on how physicians treat their patients. There is a lot more to it than just the degree a person has.

Sorry for your loss, and you make a very good point.

 

[tncekm]

Funny, I was just talking to an MD radiologist about MD/DO and he said his DO counterparts are generally very competent. The OP's experience was probably an "n=2" issue compounded by personal bias on the part of the MD.

HOWEVER, I do have to say I find it very strange the way I get bombarded with mail by DO schools looking to "recruit". Reminds me of an ITT Tech type business when they do that and its a major turn-off.

 

[Cp22kjer]

HOWEVER, I do have to say I find it very strange the way I get bombarded in the mail by DO schools looking to "recruit". Reminds me of an ITT Tech type business when they do that and its a major turn-off.

I'm not sure how you're being recruited but I know after getting my MCAT scores back that I received emails from 3 DO schools and like 4 MD schools encouraging me to apply. Interestingly enough all of these institutions were relatively close...............someone is selling us out! 😉

 

[RySerr21]

Funny, I was just talking to an MD radiologist about MD/DO and he said his DO counterparts are generally very competent. The OP's experience was probably an "n=2" issue compounded by personal bias on the part of the MD.

HOWEVER, I do have to say I find it very strange the way I get bombarded with mail by DO schools looking to "recruit". Reminds me of an ITT Tech type business when they do that and its a major turn-off.

A lot of schools do that, DO and MD. I have received recruitment emails from Duke, Harvard, University of Chicago, and Unviersity of Iowa. They all are talking about diversity and encouraging me to apply. I just ignore them. You are mistaken if you think its unique to DO schools... it reminds you of a business because it IS a business.

 

[DannMann99]

Dann... I think I know who you are

Well i'm sure as hell not Batman.

 

[Saregamapadanis]

To the MD who thinks DOs are not competent: This is great, the more you mock my profession, the more I would want to work hard and prove you wrong and finally there will come a point in time when you realize that I have clearly far surpassed you in ability, and that sadly you have wasted all your time mocking me.

 

[DannMann99]

To the MD who thinks DOs are not competent: This is great, the more you mock my profession, the more I would want to work hard and prove you wrong and finally there will come a point in time when you realize that I have clearly far surpassed you in ability, and that sadly you have wasted all your time mocking me.

and since when have you become obi-wan-****ing-kenobi

 

[Saregamapadanis]

and since when have you become obi-wan-****ing-kenobi

May the OMM be with you. 😀👍

 

[badabg286]

I interviewed today with a D.O. that turned out to be the medical consultant for the New York Mets.... in the 1980's. He said that primarily he was there to work with drug addiction. If that turnout (Strawberry, Doc, etc.) wasn't due to incompetence, I don't know what would be!

 

[BruceBanner]

I think it depends on the physician really.

I concur. This is really the crux of the whole argument. The reason why people hate these threads is because they always deteriorate into insufferable p!ssing matches.

"MD's have the biggest balls!!!"
"No, DO's have the biggest balls!!"
"Well I met this one MD who said..."
"Well I knew this one DO who said...."
"Look at these match rates!!!"

A good doctor is a good doctor, and incompetence is incompetence regardless of the degree. The problem is that because of D.O.'s smaller percentage in the physician workforce, and the existing perceptions some MD's have, when a D.O. eff's up it tends to sour the perception much more so in the minds of those who already have a negative bias, and in the minds of those with no professional frame of reference to D.O.'s.

If you're an MD with no prior professional experience with D.O.'s, and you met two bad apples who happened to be D.O.'s, then your opinion is going to reflect your negative experiences when asked about them. If the same MD met two bad MD's, then they just happened to be bad apples or made bad clinical judgments.

As trite and annoying as these threads are, the OP's question is still a valid concern and he/she is just looking for some solid corroboration or refutation of his experience. That is why people come to this site; they dont know about the endless, bitter, fruitless debates that happen day in and day out.

To add my own little name-drop, my boss is an Harvard service chief, and he emphatically told me to apply to D.O. schools in addition to all my MD apps. It all comes down to individual perception. Unfortunately, there is the possibility that you may come across ignorance or some negativity towards D.O.'s (especially in academics), because of their numbers, and, frankly, some residual "good-ole-boy" elitism. Just accept it and get on with your life. It is so unlikely that this will ever be an issue in your career that it is stupid to sweat over it. Talk to almost any clinician and you will find that this issue is largely a phenomenon of the pre-med mind.

 

[Jamers]

Just wanted to start off by saying that this thread/post isn't a generalization of all DOs. As a matter of fact, I just got done interviewing at DMU and I really think that I may pursue the DO option. I have also seen a lot of DOs that are excellent. Anyways, I was shadowing an MD a couple of months ago. He was a very competent, skilled, and respected physician. There were also 2 DOs in the same office. After talking to him and getting his opinion, he told me that DOs weren't that respected and I should attend an MD school if I can.

I asked him why he thought what he did? We talked about the performance of the two DOs. One had been working there for several years and was disliked by EVERYONE in the office. For example, one of his patients was a terminally ill comatose patient with no family. He insisted on putting her on multiple medications to prolong her life (btw. she was 94 years old).

The other DO, a female, one had just finished her family medicine residency and joined the group. She was incharge of a delivery and totally messed it up. After delivering she ignored the fact that the baby wasn't breathing properly and turning blue!!! Another doctor had to step in and helped the baby. That was just one of many incidents. The other physicians went to the hospital board and had her banned from deliveries due to her inability to do her job.

On a similar topic he told me that DO residency programs in general were not viewed to be as rigorous as MD programs. He also said that DOs not practicing OMM further discredits their philosophy.

I can't say that I completely disagree with his assessment. There are many many wonderful DOs out there who are equally skillful as their MD counterparts. However, there are soooo few DOs out there that even the one or two incompetent ones make the whole philosophy look bad. It seems to me that DOs really have to work twice as hard in order to further that philosophy. What do you guys think that the AOA, medical schools, and residency programs need to do to make stronger osteopathic physicians? And what can be done to weed out these eccentric and/or incompetent physicians?

Everyone...really? You took a poll? Awesome.

 

[DrMattOglesby]

there are some threads that just plain out make me upset...this is one of them. 👎 👎

 

[RUc10]

Haven't read this whole thread but I figured it would be better to post this here instead of making another thread...

Twice now since the beginning of this week something has happened that has made me question how much DO's are truly respected.

First, I was talking to a another pre-med kid and he told me how both of his grandparents are MD's. He said he told them about possibly applying to osteopathic school and they told him don't because DO's are a joke... I wasn't too worried when he told me this because I think it's pretty obvious that older MDs aren't going to have the same views on DOs because the requirements for both aren't the same as they were 40 years ago.

But what really made me think... yesterday at work a nurse was looking at the computer when she said (out loud) "what is a DO?" No hint in her voice that she had even heard of a DO before and just wanted a clarification. She had no clue what a DO was. Seriously... how is the respect level for DOs going to be the same as MDs when things like this happen. I work at RWJ also so it's a decent sized hospital and I'm assuming we get some of the better nurses that are around so that definitely surprised me.

 

[Chocolate Bear]

Haven't read this whole thread but I figured it would be better to post this here instead of making another thread...

Twice now since the beginning of this week something has happened that has made me question how much DO's are truly respected.

First, I was talking to a another pre-med kid and he told me how both of his grandparents are MD's. He said he told them about possibly applying to osteopathic school and they told him don't because DO's are a joke... I wasn't too worried when he told me this because I think it's pretty obvious that older MDs aren't going to have the same views on DOs because the requirements for both aren't the same as they were 40 years ago.

Another pre-med's grandparents?? Come on...you really gotta filter out useless opinions, if you're gonna live in this world. Food for thought.

But what really made me think... yesterday at work a nurse was looking at the computer when she said (out loud) "what is a DO?" No hint in her voice that she had even heard of a DO before and just wanted a clarification. She had no clue what a DO was. Seriously... how is the respect level for DOs going to be the same as MDs when things like this happen. I work at RWJ also so it's a decent sized hospital and I'm assuming we get some of the better nurses that are around so that definitely surprised me.

You think all doctors know the difference between an RN/LVN/LPN/BSN/whateverN?? They don't. We all just work together, fulfilling our duties, and if one of us happens to see the unknown initials of someone we work with, we inquire or we ignore. No big deal. Why would she know what a DO is? The average healthcare worker may have never worked with one, or if they have, they didn't realize it.

Are you really questioning the respect of a profession based on two biased old people and one acceptably naive nurse? Gimme a break.

 

[Chocolate Bear]

there are some threads that just plain out make me upset...this is one of them. 👎 👎

Agreed. I hate how it gets bumped once a week or so...just when you thought it was dead. *sigh*

 

[RySerr21]

Another pre-med's grandparents?? Come on...you really gotta filter out useless opinions, if you're gonna live in this world. Food for thought.



You think all doctors know the difference between an RN/LVN/LPN/BSN/whateverN?? They don't. We all just work together, fulfilling our duties, and if one of us happens to see the unknown initials of someone we work with, we inquire or we ignore. No big deal. Why would she know what a DO is? The average healthcare worker may have never worked with one, or if they have, they didn't realize it.

Are you really questioning the respect of a profession based on two biased old people and one acceptably naive nurse? Gimme a break.

Thats my DAWG. Great post! 👍

 

[clc8503]

Actually I have been around medicine pretty much my whole life. My parents are physicians and so is my sister (a DO). I have also worked with many military physicians. So my sample size is a little bigger than n=1. I also haven't drawn any conclusions, I was simply asking for opinions. I am also well aware of the fact, and stated so in my original post, that there are many excellent DO and MD physicians out there.

So let me get this straight. Your sister is a DO and yet you come onto the pre-osteo forum and ask fundamental questions about the profession, rather than just going to her and asking about her level of training? Why do you accept the opinions of a doc that you barely know when you should have some idea of the competency level of your sister in practice? Is she making mistakes left and right? Is she incompetent? You mean to tell me you were not offended by what the doc said when he more or less said that your sister was not as competent as an MD and that her training was not as adequate?

Why are you shadowing a doc that is basically ignorant on the topic of Osteopathic medicine if both of your parents are physicians? Why not shadow them? Why not ask their opinion? Why not shadow your sister? This doesn't make any since to me. To be honest, I have found so many holes in your posts that you basically just sound like you are full of ****. It sounds like you just made up this story about coming from a family of docs and having a sister that is a DO in an attempt to save face after creating a flame war in the pre DO forum by indirectly bashing the profession. Why ask such fundamental questions about Osteopathic Medicine when you have a DO, that is an immediate family member, on speed dial?

This forum seems trollish and should be shut down.

 

[TRN1983]

To hit the other side of the coin, I had a genetics professor give me grief over not applying D.O. She said she only visits D.O.'s.

Moral of the story: can't let this kind of stuff bug ya! People have their opinions on things, they usually differ, and they're almost always uninformed🙂 So, "meh", that's life, right?

 

[gasapple]

There is a high number of socialist hippies and liberal *****s who go DO... I'm worried I'll have to take my DO Magic Eightball with me on rounds to get respect.

"Differential? Wait, let me consult my Magic Eight Ball" *shake*

Munchies anyone?

 

[GoBuckeyes913]

To be fair, since the majority of you have verbally executed the OP (seriously, not necessary, and I'm a DO student), the OP really doesn't know any better. Cut him/her a little slack before you get all DO-vigilante and have word vomit.

The OP obviously has zero clinical experience and is naive to the medical community (I'm not taking a shot, OP, just stating the obvious meant with good intentions). When you really don't know how things are, you believe what people that are supposed to be "superior mentors" tell you, and don't pretend that none of you have ever had this experience on clinical rotations. Now, in time the OP will form his own opinion on the matter.....If all you've seen is shatty DO's, then of course you're going to question their competency. The reverse would be the same (crappy MDs). You just need more experience. Your education is what you make of it, no matter where you go. The point is OP, it doesn't matter where you go to med school in this country. It matters where you go to residency 😉 (at least for me, it will)

 

[gasapple]

It's not that I've seen shotty necessarily...just too much incense and magic crystals.😀

I'm just joking - previous poster is correct!

 

[escabatum_rip3]

Just to provide a counter-example, I work at a lab (at Kaiser Perm.) and occasionally I draw blood from Kaiser Doctors - I shadowed a D.O. breast cancer surgeon who worked for Kaiser and he was actually famous throughout the hospital. I asked a couple doctors about their opinion of Osteopathic Medicine and both said 1.) They're very skilled, they just have a different philosophy behind it is all, and 2.) Dr. (X) is a D.O. and he is one of the best breast cancer surgeons in the hospital. So, in the same way that one D.O. can condemn the field, a good D.O. can vindicate it 🙂