Interested in derm

[CaffineDoc24]

Hi guys, I just started my first year at a top DO school. As a decade long acne patient, I have always wanted to be a dermatologist. I know this is really really hard as a DO, and even an MD. But is there anything you guys think I can start doing now to at least have a chance? I know connections help a lot, as well as research. Looking for any tips you guys can give, especially since step 1 will be P/F for me. Thank you!

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[AnatomyGrey12]

Start building connections now. Get research. Be at the top of your class.

That's what you should be doing right now if you want derm.

 

[Solodyn]

Hi guys, I just started my first year at a top DO school.

I wonder which DO school is the top DO school?

 

[Billroth_III]

I wonder which DO school is the top DO school?

The one with the least OMM

 

[MaynardSandwich11203]

I wonder which DO school is the top DO school?

Liberty. All tops, no bottoms

 

[Damson]

my money's on OU Heritage

 

[scoopdaboop]

Why is research so important in the eyes of these residencies? I get it, research helps drive medicine yadi yada. But, if you're not interested in research one bit, why should it hurt you? I mean, obviously the MD PhD's like research so they do it, but if you don't , why should it be held against you if you have no research? Seems silly to me.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

But, if you're not interested in research one bit, why should it hurt you? I mean, obviously the MD PhD's like research so they do it, but if you don't , why should it be held against you if you have no research? Seems silly to me.

Because at the end of the day residency is still an academic affair. And these elite specialties are largely at academic institutions.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Why is research so important in the eyes of these residencies? I get it, research helps drive medicine yadi yada. But, if you're not interested in research one bit, why should it hurt you? I mean, obviously the MD PhD's like research so they do it, but if you don't , why should it be held against you if you have no research? Seems silly to me.

Unfortunately a bunch of people overdid it in the past and did all the research and published to get it, over the past years... It later became a requirement.... Just like volunteering became a requirement now to get into med school. Life is tough, its only gonna get tougher, eventually you will need nobel prize in medicine to get into Derm... Crazy world indeed.

 

[Neopolymath]

Why is research so important in the eyes of these residencies? I get it, research helps drive medicine yadi yada. But, if you're not interested in research one bit, why should it hurt you? I mean, obviously the MD PhD's like research so they do it, but if you don't , why should it be held against you if you have no research? Seems silly to me.

Pragmatically, when you receive too many applications you will turn to any sorting variable to trim the list. Sure, research production is pillar of academic medicine while research awareness is a pillar of community programs, but the main utility for competitive specialties (not top academic programs producing research) is being able to get rid of a lot of applicants with just a few mouse clicks not that they actually care about the students actually producing research. An ortho program in the middle of nowhere at a community hospital would still use this metric if it got enough apps.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Pragmatically, when you receive too many applications you will turn to any sorting variable to trim the list. Sure, research production is pillar of academic medicine while research awareness is a pillar of community programs, but the main utility for competitive specialties (not top academic programs producing research) is being able to get rid of a lot of applicants with just a few mouse clicks not that they actually care about the students actually producing research. An ortho program in the middle of nowhere at a community hospital would still use this metric if it got enough apps.

There is no other way to put it than its just became a requirement inorder to stand out when the apps are screened.

People went into medicine not to produce research but actually to become a physician. I am not sure how much of the ability of doing shave biopsies, identifying rashes, botox injections, prescribing steroids have to do with publishing multiple research.

I cringe when i think of the idea of having introvert scientist/researcher playing the role of physician when I see majority of them cannot hold a proper conversation while looking in your face. Well just a world where people are willing to do whatever it takes. When one person was willing to jump off a bridge, the other one will be willing to jump off a plane, another one will jump from outer space to get into a specialty. In this example, which one would you pick to be your next dermatologist? Not that the jumping ability has anything to do with medicine. It is just a game where one candidate one up's the other. Next requirement will be Nobel prize winning.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

People went into medicine not to produce research but actually to become a physician. I am not sure how much of the ability of doing shave biopsies, identifying rashes, botox injections, prescribing steroids have to do with publishing multiple research.

Again, you forget that while for some derm graduates that is what ends up happening, you have to go through residency first. And derm residencies are largely at academic centers where part of their mission is to put out research. Residency is still academic, even if a lot of physicians don't practice in that setting.

I do agree completely with @Neopolymath that it has become a stupid arms race in residency applications, no you shouldn't need 20 "publications" to go into derm, but that isn't to say that research shouldn't be considered at all. It shows interest. It shows curiosity. If anything it shows that you want a specialty bad enough that you are willing to wade through the swamp of manuscript production in order to get there.

I cringe when i think of the idea of having introvert scientist/researcher playing the role of physician when I see majority of them cannot hold a proper conversation while looking in your face. Well just a world where people are willing to do whatever it takes. When one person was willing to jump off a bridge, the other one will be willing to jump off a plane, another one will jump from outer space to get into a specialty. In this example, which one would you pick to be your next dermatologist? Not that the jumping ability has anything to do with medicine. It is just a game where one candidate one up's the other. Next requirement will be Nobel prize winning.

Medicine is a field of science. Physicians are practitioners of that science and are by definitions, scientists. If you cannot read a study and accurately interpret what it's saying, then you will be a bad doctor. This is why even at the most community of community programs they still have ACGME research requirements and typically hold monthly journal clubs. Research will be a component of any physician's practice even if they aren't actively. doing it themselves.

I find the bolded to be pretty ignorant and cringeworthy.

 

[gyngyn]

Let us remember to disagree with civility.

 

[Neopolymath]

There is no other way to put it than its just became a requirement inorder to stand out when the apps are screened.

People went into medicine not to produce research but actually to become a physician. I am not sure how much of the ability of doing shave biopsies, identifying rashes, botox injections, prescribing steroids have to do with publishing multiple research.

I cringe when i think of the idea of having introvert scientist/researcher playing the role of physician when I see majority of them cannot hold a proper conversation while looking in your face. Well just a world where people are willing to do whatever it takes. When one person was willing to jump off a bridge, the other one will be willing to jump off a plane, another one will jump from outer space to get into a specialty. In this example, which one would you pick to be your next dermatologist? Not that the jumping ability has anything to do with medicine. It is just a game where one candidate one up's the other. Next requirement will be Nobel prize winning.

This is an inaccurate and tired trope that detracts from the rest of your point. Smart people are not less socially skilled. In fact, I have found the opposite to be true.

 

[Damson]

@AnatomyGrey12 I think it's more likely we change people's minds if we don't insult them though.

 

[Sardonix]

This is an inaccurate and tired trope that detracts from the rest of your point. Smart people are not less socially skilled. In fact, I have found the opposite to be true.

To be honest, one of the biggest things that med school teaches you is that there truly are people who are handsome/beautiful, socially outgoing, in shape, have amazing life experiences, and are wicked smart on top of it all. They're not necessarily rich--they can be from all kinds of backgrounds. And they undoubtedly have their own unique, very human flaws that they hide behind apparently mastering everything they attempt.

But rest assured, they're all united by the fact that none of them are me.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

@AnatomyGrey12 I think it's more likely we change people's minds if we don't insult them though.

I did not insult them.

 

[Neopolymath]

To be honest, one of the biggest things that med school teaches you is that there truly are people who are handsome/beautiful, socially outgoing, in shape, have amazing life experiences, and are wicked smart on top of it all. They're not necessarily rich--they can be from all kinds of backgrounds. And they undoubtedly have their own unique, very human flaws that they hide behind apparently mastering everything they attempt.

But rest assured, they're all united by the fact that none of them are me.

You crack me up every time you post. Never change.

 

[Kardio]

People went into medicine not to produce research but actually to become a physician. I am not sure how much of the ability of doing shave biopsies, identifying rashes, botox injections, prescribing steroids have to do with publishing multiple research.

There is intrinsic good in just writing the paper. It doesn’t have to be impactful for the author themself to learn something while writing it and to speak more coherently on the subject (and tangentially related topics) in the future.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Let me just answer everyone at once this time. The topic I was trying to address was, why "research" when you are trying to go into a specific field... Do not mean to be bashing on a specific field.

If you have not figured out that it is used purely as a screening criteria for applicants, then sorry you just do not understand how things work. The amount of research required to get into lesser sought out specialties is not the same. For example: This same amount of research is not required for family medicine. Have you thought about it??? Does family medicine require less of a scientist or a researcher???

Just to be a little more sensitive to "researchers", I apologize, we are all geeks to some extent while we are in this field.

Now I am not saying that research is a bad thing to have, but having multiple research publications just to fulfill a "requirement" to show that you are fit for a specialty has now become a requirement. Now its an arms race and research is used to differentiate between multiple applicant. Yeah academic institutions now require students doing a bunch of research for them to get them money... Where did this requirement come from? They should hire more phd's to do research and not medical doctors. Just my take.

 

[Damson]

Derm must be a fun specialty

 

[Neopolymath]

Let me just answer everyone at once this time. The topic I was trying to address was, why "research" when you are trying to go into a specific field... Do not mean to be bashing on a specific field.

If you have not figured out that it is used purely as a screening criteria for applicants, then sorry you just do not understand how things work. The amount of research required to get into lesser sought out specialties is not the same. For example: This same amount of research is not required for family medicine. Have you thought about it??? Does family medicine require less of a scientist or a researcher???

Just to be a little more sensitive to "researchers", I apologize, we are all geeks to some extent while we are in this field.

Now I am not saying that research is a bad thing to have, but having multiple research publications just to fulfill a "requirement" to show that you are fit for a specialty has now become a requirement. Now its an arms race and research is used to differentiate between multiple applicant. Yeah academic institutions now require students doing a bunch of research for them to get them money... Where did this requirement come from? They should hire more phd's to do research and not medical doctors. Just my take.

No one disagreed with you about this.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

If you have not figured out that it is used purely as a screening criteria for applicants, then sorry you just do not understand how things work.

No one said it wasn't used as a screening criteria, but to claim that is its sole purpose at every program for every specialty is disingenuous.

The amount of research required to get into lesser sought out specialties is not the same. For example: This same amount of research is not required for family medicine. Have you thought about it??? Does family medicine require less of a scientist or a researcher??

How many residency spots are there for FM compared to plastic surgery? Where are pretty much all of the plastic surgery spots located? Major, research driven university academic centers. How about family med? I guarantee you that if you apply to the UCSF FM without any research on your app you're going to have a hard time, it just happens most of family med programs are not at academic places. The majority of all super competitive specialties are isolated at academic centers with the notable exception of ortho, which I agree is probably the biggest offender of the whole "do research for the sake of getting a residency spot" game.

Now its an arms race and research is used to differentiate between multiple applicant.

Yes and no one said that wasn't a problem. However, to claim that is its sole purpose is completely missing the point. Take Mayo Clinic general surgery for example. Their graduates frequently put out 10+ publications during their time in residency, it's expected for you to be actively involved in research their during your entire training period, so why would they want to take someone who hasn't been actively involved in research already and knows what they are getting into? It's far more nuanced than you are making it out to be.

Yeah academic institutions now require students doing a bunch of research for them to get them money... Where did this requirement come from? They should hire more phd's to do research and not medical doctors. Just my take.

Do you really not understand the history of medicine? Research is foundational to medicine. It's not some requirement that just popped up. It's always been there. Research has ALWAYS been performed by medical students and physicians, because, like I said before, physicians are scientists at their core. We are not just technicians that input symptoms and diseases into some algorithm that spits out how we should approach that patient. It's not about getting money, it truly is about trying to advance knowledge and improving how we deliver medicine. Yes

I do not disagree with you that research has become this untenable arms race that will likely get significantly worse with a P/F Step 1, but I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that being active in research and understanding research isn't a core, foundational principle of medicine. The last two centuries of medical advancement by physicians say that it is.

 

[Sardonix]

You crack me up every time you post. Never change.

*Pushes up glasses

Oh yeah. It's HVLA time.

 

[DameJulie]

Because at the end of the day residency is still an academic affair. And these elite specialties are largely at academic institutions.

This +1. Also research at these places brings in grant ($$$), pubs, prestige and fame.

 

[Solodyn]

There is a simpler explanation for why derm residencies use research experience and board scores to screen applicants. It is all about ACGME accreditation.

ACGME requires all derm residency programs to have "scholarly activity" in order to maintain accreditation. The scholarly activity requirement is split up into 5 different categories with PubMed indexed publications being most prestigious. The Scholarly activity is not only expected by the residents but also the attendings. In academic institutions, chairman and core faculty members depend on publication for academic rank advancement, prestige amongst pharmaceutical companies, and political influence within the AAD. Having residents with a proven record in getting published makes it easier for the department to have an apparatus to crank out papers for all members of the department. This way everybody wins. But the bottom line is that without scholarly activity, the residency will have a hard time during the annual accreditation review. Therefore picking a resident with the ability to write papers will give the department chair less headache when it comes to keeping the program accredited.

For the very similar reason, derm residencies pick candidates with the best board scores. USLME score is a good indicator of future board passage. The ACGME outcome is tied to the first time board passage rate. If that falls below 80% within a 5 year period, the program may be re-evaluated by the RC or even possibly given a warning.

So in summary, having a resident with a high board score with more pubs will give the department less headache during accreditation evaluation. That is all there is to it.

 

[CaffineDoc24]

Soo..... do research. Got it

 

[Lexdiamondz]

There is no other way to put it than its just became a requirement inorder to stand out when the apps are screened.

People went into medicine not to produce research but actually to become a physician. I am not sure how much of the ability of doing shave biopsies, identifying rashes, botox injections, prescribing steroids have to do with publishing multiple research.

I cringe when i think of the idea of having introvert scientist/researcher playing the role of physician when I see majority of them cannot hold a proper conversation while looking in your face. Well just a world where people are willing to do whatever it takes. When one person was willing to jump off a bridge, the other one will be willing to jump off a plane, another one will jump from outer space to get into a specialty. In this example, which one would you pick to be your next dermatologist? Not that the jumping ability has anything to do with medicine. It is just a game where one candidate one up's the other. Next requirement will be Nobel prize winning.

Jokes on you.

A large %-age of the matches in competitive fields like derm, ortho and plastics are attractive, sociable people. Good luck matching well as an awkward, obese introverted nontrad.

 

[Goro]

I wonder which DO school is the top DO school?

Ask five people, you'll get six answers.

 

[ritts]

I knew a lot of students interested in derm and ortho before getting their board scores back