Interesting case

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Sleeplessbordernights

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79 years old lady, 4’11, 200 lbs, recently diagnosed with DM, history of being around smokers all the time and using wood stove to cook. One week ago she fell from her height breaking her proximal humerus and is scheduled for humerus nail.

Her basal spo2 is 80-83% at best, which improves to 90% at best with simple facemask at 6 L. Lung auscultations gives us bilateral wheezing. She refers that over the last two months she is having trouble swallowing solids. Her labs are unremarkable other than glucose at 220. This is her chest x ray (which Im sharing with her permission).

What do you do?

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Uh, I see some mediastinal widening, not that I could necessarily tell for sure but looks like an ascending aortic aneurym. There's trachea deviation so question a medicinal mass? No pneumothorax, no rib fractures, no blunted costophrenic angles to suggest fluid overload.

Start with a CT chest and TTE. If she can't lie flat then at least a TTE. I'd do it quick too!
 
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Looks like a widened mediastinum and pretty severe tracheal deviation. I would assume that she has a large mediastinal mass. I guess it could be a thoracic aneurysm too, but that is not what I would put my money on. Trying to make the wood stove connection for some sort of zebra diagnosis but I can't get there. Maybe methemoglobinemia from the chronic indoor wood stove that accounts for the low SaO2?
I would see if she could lie supine and that would likely tell you if it is a mass.
 
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I would bet there are two likely problems going on here. A potential thoracic mass although I think it is likely the X-ray is just rotated making it look that way.

Otherwise there is thickened pulmonary vasculature. I bet a large sum she has secondary PHTN from either undiagnosed OSA or COPD.

CT chest, echo and do a gas to check for CO2 retention. And trial some inhalers. But most importantly turf it
 
Could be a mediastinal fat pad. For sats to be that low at rest in guessing she has pulmonary htn or an ild. Based on hx you provided could be a lipoid pneumonia or pneumoconiosis. Tracheal deviation evident so she probably has a mass but that probably wouldn't explain her sats unless it is choking a pulmonary artery and that high up in the chest seems unlikely. Cxr is lame post the CT scan.
 
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Postpone case. Medicine ->GI and pulm consults. CT chest w/wo and probably a CTA-PE as well. EKG. TTE. Full set of labs including an ABG and BNP.
 
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Any cowboys / cowgirls here would do the case with a block and and lma and let them work her up while she recovers in the icu? What could your anesthetic do that a fall bad enough to break a bone didn’t?

Im not saying that’s how I would play it but curious to get peoples thoughts…
 
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Any cowboys / cowgirls here would do the case with a block and and lma and let them work her up while she recovers in the icu? What could your anesthetic do that a fall bad enough to break a bone didn’t?

Im not saying that’s how I would play it but curious to get peoples thoughts…
Supress her respiratory drive enough that she stops breathing and never starts again as well as relaxing her tissue enough that whatever that mediastinal mass is compresses her airways to the point that you can't get a tube in her when she eventually desaturates...like as soon as you induce.
 
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Any cowboys / cowgirls here would do the case with a block and and lma and let them work her up while she recovers in the icu? What could your anesthetic do that a fall bad enough to break a bone didn’t?

Im not saying that’s how I would play it but curious to get peoples thoughts…
Lol, the only place she's recovering if you proceed without further w/u and optimization is the morgue. Especially if your plan is block + LMA on a fat lady with dysphagia, likely mediastinal mass, COPD, and interstitial lung disease.
 
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Any cowboys / cowgirls here would do the case with a block and and lma and let them work her up while she recovers in the icu? What could your anesthetic do that a fall bad enough to break a bone didn’t?

Im not saying that’s how I would play it but curious to get peoples thoughts…
Nah. Nothing urgent about the fracture. Put her in a sling for comfort while working up her other issues. Optimize her pulmonary issues and figure out wtf is causing her trachea to deviate so much.

After that nonsense gets sorted out, I would definitely tube her +/- a phrenic nerve sparing block (suprascapular block if it would cover the operative area), and wouldn’t hesitate to leave her intubated postoperatively if her pulmonary status remained garbage following her “medical optimization.”

Will she make it off the vent? Maybe, probably not. But this lady’s morbidity / mortality is ridiculously high, and she should probably be on hospice. I’m not going to try to be a ‘cowboy’ (at the expense of my sanity, my stress levels, and my license) in the one in a million chance that she makes a meaningful recovery. I’ll give her the safest anesthetic I can without trying to do “cowboy-esque” things, but won’t do anything that increases the chances of her kicking the bucket under my watch, even if it may lead to her potentially having a better outcome (ie: not being on the vent postop).
 
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Any cowboys / cowgirls here would do the case with a block and and lma and let them work her up while she recovers in the icu? What could your anesthetic do that a fall bad enough to break a bone didn’t?

Im not saying that’s how I would play it but curious to get peoples thoughts…



Tom Delonge Wtf GIF
 
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Supress her respiratory drive enough that she stops breathing and never starts again as well as relaxing her tissue enough that whatever that mediastinal mass is compresses her airways to the point that you can't get a tube in her when she eventually desaturates...like as soon as you induce.
Anesthesiology had an article a while back that sort of debunked the conventional wisdom of masses compressing or occluding the airway upon relaxation.
 
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Anesthesiology had an article a while back that sort of debunked the conventional wisdom of masses compressing or occluding the airway upon relaxation.
How recent? It's possible that got presented to us in residency (admittedly I have a tendency to drift off when people start talking about studies) but, as far as I can remember, as of two years ago that's still getting taught.
 
Well what actually happened was this:

I was pushing hard for my attending to postpone the case and actually work her up (other attendings passing by suggested the same), but he didn’t want to.

So we did a interescalene block (which I suggested was a bad idea) plus precedex.
The patient actually did well, her spo2 stayed around 85 all surgery. Still the whole thing left me kind of angry, the fact that everything went well doesn’t mean it was the right call and I didn’t like the attitude of my attending (kinda simping to orthobros).
 
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Well what actually happened was this:

I was pushing hard for my attending to postpone the case and actually work her up (other attendings passing by suggested the same), but he didn’t want to.

So we did a interescalene block (which I suggested was a bad idea) plus precedex.
The patient actually did well, her spo2 stayed around 85 all surgery. Still the whole thing left me kind of angry, the fact that everything went well doesn’t mean it was the right call and I didn’t like the attitude of my attending (kinda simping to orthobros).
God damn that was stupidly ballsy.
 
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Well what actually happened was this:

I was pushing hard for my attending to postpone the case and actually work her up (other attendings passing by suggested the same), but he didn’t want to.

So we did a interescalene block (which I suggested was a bad idea) plus precedex.
The patient actually did well, her spo2 stayed around 85 all surgery. Still the whole thing left me kind of angry, the fact that everything went well doesn’t mean it was the right call and I didn’t like the attitude of my attending (kinda simping to orthobros).
I think the fact that you realize "just because she made it through, does not mean it was the right option" is what's most important for you here.

This case is a slam dunk delay for further workup. IMO. No orthopod at my hospital would fight it if I said she's not going until we rule out some things and check out her heart/lungs better.
 
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“The existing evidence does not indicate that operative man- agement produces superior outcomes. The significant complication rate associated with operative treatment (as high as 70%) may explain the overall lack of superiority with regards to outcome measures.
Large studies have attempted to settle such controversy with little success. The most high profile of these studies is the PROFHER trial.19 In this pragmatic, multicenter, parallel-group, randomised clinical trial 250 patients (aged 24e92) were randomised between surgical and non-surgical intervention. The trial demonstrated that there were no significant differences in Oxford shoulder scores at 2 years between the groups. A follow up study was carried out on 149 of these patients at 5 years.4 It confirmed the original findings of the PROFHER trial. Other studies, such as the meta-analysis on 3 and 4-part fractures by Li et al. (2013),40 also found that the fixation of these fractures was not superior to conservative management.
The question for orthopaedic surgeons is therefore whether or not surgical fixation has any role in the management of these fractures. Scrutiny is therefore required of the above studies. Although the PROFHER trial has various strengths it is also a fundamentally flawed trial with several weaknesses. The hetero- genicity of the selected patients in terms of age and fracture pattern alone may have clouded the conclusions drawn by the authors. The fact that the trial was carried out across 30 different centres and by 66 different surgeons raises questions about the consistency of the treatment. Perhaps the most significant factor is the exclusion of patients “with a clear indication for surgery”. Finally, the inclusion of all surgically treated patients into one category would appear to be erroneous as it has been shown that patients with different forms of surgical treatment have different outcomes.41e44
A Cochrane review by Handoll and Brorson18 suggested that “there is high or moderate quality evidence that, compared with non-surgical treatment, surgery does not result in a better out- comes at one and two years after injury for people with displaced proximal humeral fractures involving the humeral neck”. It is important to note however, that the evidence did not cover the treatment of two-part tuberosity fractures, fractures in young people, high energy trauma, or less common fractures such as fracture dislocations and head splitting fractures.
In conclusion, it is clear that the majority of minimally displaced and simple proximal humeral fractures can be safely managed non- operatively. What is also clear is that large, well designed trials are needed comparing non-operative management with specific operative techniques in specific patient groups with 3 or 4-part fractures, before significant conclusions can be drawn with regards to management of these fractures. One such trial is un- derway comparing 3 and 4-part fractures in the proximal Humerus, specifically in elderly patients.45 The authors also keenly await the release of the findings of the PROFHER 2 trial.”
 
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How recent? It's possible that got presented to us in residency (admittedly I have a tendency to drift off when people start talking about studies) but, as far as I can remember, as of two years ago that's still getting taught.
Jan 2022. Google it.
 
Well what actually happened was this:

I was pushing hard for my attending to postpone the case and actually work her up (other attendings passing by suggested the same), but he didn’t want to.

So we did a interescalene block (which I suggested was a bad idea) plus precedex.
The patient actually did well, her spo2 stayed around 85 all surgery. Still the whole thing left me kind of angry, the fact that everything went well doesn’t mean it was the right call and I didn’t like the attitude of my attending (kinda simping to orthobros).

Damn bro. Anything goes in Mexico, huh? After seeing that X-ray I’d have sent that patient straight to ‘further workup city’. No passing go and no collecting $200. Your attending has a set of steel cajones on him. But he may not be the wisest guy in el ciudad.
 
Well what actually happened was this:

I was pushing hard for my attending to postpone the case and actually work her up (other attendings passing by suggested the same), but he didn’t want to.

So we did a interescalene block (which I suggested was a bad idea) plus precedex.
The patient actually did well, her spo2 stayed around 85 all surgery. Still the whole thing left me kind of angry, the fact that everything went well doesn’t mean it was the right call and I didn’t like the attitude of my attending (kinda simping to orthobros).
Good for your attending.. as others have stated her chances of making it out of the hospital are probably pretty slim but at least he gave her a shot and didn’t leave her to rot on the floor with a broken arm. Having the skill, knowledge and confidence to get a sick patient through surgery is just as much art as it is science. This is also what sets an anesthesiologist apart from an anesthetist.

Also the “simping to orthopods” thing makes you sound insecure and childish.. put that nonsense aside and worry about taking the best care of the patient you can.
 
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.. put that nonsense aside and worry about taking the best care of the patient you can.

The best care for the patient (without the benefit of hindsight) was not proceeding with the case, imo.
 
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So what did the work up reveal?

I’d be very surprised if the cause of the hypoxia was a mediastinal mass tbh. By the time they get hypoxic they’re usually dying on you, and not someone whose able to get through a surgery with a block and sedation. There’s something going on in the lung parenchyma
 
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Good for your attending.. as others have stated her chances of making it out of the hospital are probably pretty slim but at least he gave her a shot and didn’t leave her to rot on the floor with a broken arm. Having the skill, knowledge and confidence to get a sick patient through surgery is just as much art as it is science. This is also what sets an anesthesiologist apart from an anesthetist.

Also the “simping to orthopods” thing makes you sound insecure and childish.. put that nonsense aside and worry about taking the best care of the patient you can.
I might have a chip on my shoulder lately tbh not so good
 
Damn bro. Anything goes in Mexico, huh? After seeing that X-ray I’d have sent that patient straight to ‘further workup city’. No passing go and no collecting $200. Your attending has a set of steel cajones on him. But he may not be the wisest guy in el ciudad.
Well not really, most Anesthesiologists here are pretty conservative but this one in particular takes pride in never cancelling cases
 
So what did the work up reveal?

I’d be very surprised if the cause of the hypoxia was a mediastinal mass tbh. By the time they get hypoxic they’re usually dying on you, and not someone whose able to get through a surgery with a block and sedation. There’s something going on in the lung parenchyma
Im waiting on it. Medicine is still at it
 
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How recent? It's possible that got presented to us in residency (admittedly I have a tendency to drift off when people start talking about studies) but, as far as I can remember, as of two years ago that's still getting taught.
I am sure it is still getting taught. Old habits die hard. Nobody wants a clean kill.
 
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Sounds like totally none emergent case. Who would willingly do this case? Although we like to joke that ortho will do surgery on anyone, it really does appear so. My goodness. Talk about playing with fire.

Appears to be some mediastinal mass/large aneurysm, symptomatic as well. The hypoxia at baseline is probably pulm htn, COPD. CT chest should be done pretty quick to see what’s going on.

If you were gonna do this case, at least do an infraclav or Supraclav instead of interscalene since this is humerus and avoid phrenic nerve paralysis as much as possible. Maybe people feeling 80% sat is the new 90 since Covid lol
 
Good for your attending.. as others have stated her chances of making it out of the hospital are probably pretty slim but at least he gave her a shot and didn’t leave her to rot on the floor with a broken arm. Having the skill, knowledge and confidence to get a sick patient through surgery is just as much art as it is science. This is also what sets an anesthesiologist apart from an anesthetist.

Also the “simping to orthopods” thing makes you sound insecure and childish.. put that nonsense aside and worry about taking the best care of the patient you can.
The attending did an interscalene block on a COPD patient with a sat in the 80s, and a large unidentified mediastinal mass…and he “prides himself” in not cancelling cases.

He chose a sloppy anesthetic in an unoptimized patient who needed more work up and got lucky, plain and simple. That shouldn’t be lauded. Do the same thing in next 9 patients with a similar presentation and you’re bound to put one (if not more) in the dirt because you are too egotistical/ignorant to cancel a case.

It also sets an awful precedent that a surgeon can put any garbage on the board in totally unoptimized patients and this sucker who practices bad medicine will always be willing to bend over and do it, even if every other partner would rightfully cancel or delay it.
 
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Imagine unironically doing an interscalene on bricks-for-lungs over here.
 
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Well what actually happened was this:

I was pushing hard for my attending to postpone the case and actually work her up (other attendings passing by suggested the same), but he didn’t want to.

So we did a interescalene block (which I suggested was a bad idea) plus precedex.
The patient actually did well, her spo2 stayed around 85 all surgery. Still the whole thing left me kind of angry, the fact that everything went well doesn’t mean it was the right call and I didn’t like the attitude of my attending (kinda simping to orthobros).

Good for your attending.. as others have stated her chances of making it out of the hospital are probably pretty slim but at least he gave her a shot and didn’t leave her to rot on the floor with a broken arm. Having the skill, knowledge and confidence to get a sick patient through surgery is just as much art as it is science. This is also what sets an anesthesiologist apart from an anesthetist.

Also the “simping to orthopods” thing makes you sound insecure and childish.. put that nonsense aside and worry about taking the best care of the patient you can.

Her likelihood of making it out of the hospital alive has little if anything to do with her fracture. Proceeding with this case in any fashion is reckless. Proceeding in the manner described is some Dr. Death level incompetence. There’s no possible way to know if she was going to tolerate hemi-diaphragm paralysis. And what’s plan B if she doesn’t? I’m guessing something like 99/100 anesthesiologists polled would say an Inter-scalene is a bad idea in this patient and has a high probability of resulting in an emergent airway management situation in a patient with zero physiologic reserve and an uncharacterized mediastinal mass.

It’s not like it’s a hip fracture where significant delay/failure to perform surgery contributes significantly to morbidity/mortality. It’s her arm, she can wear a sling and still get around, perform ADLs, etc.

Did this attending have skill? How much skill does it take to supervise a resident doing a block? Knowledge is clearly completely absent. And confidence? More like ego. Nevermind that the patient didn’t die in the OR. That’s meaningless. This anesthesiologist was being a total cowboy to cow tow to surgeons. They’re incredibly lucky the patient didn’t die, that’s all. No skill, no knowledge, no confidence. Just ego and luck.
 
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i dont think the anesthesiologist was a cowboy for proceeding. i think the plan is wrong (from the info provided) and he/she simply got lucky that nothing bad happened. interscalene block? why? proceed? why? can the attending even answer these questions?
 
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Even without the imaging, I think I would postpone for cardiopulmonary workup just from the SpO2 alone. I don’t think I’ve ever had a patient not in the ICU with that kind of baseline. Is that a reasonable position?

Of note, I think ortho is especially prone to taking anesthesia risks lightly. The last time I had a questionably “urgent” case in a sick guy they were certain that it couldn’t wait a day. The guy had a DNAR and refused to adjust it at all. Said he would do the surgery but if he coded to just let him die. 90 year old dude, pretty reasonable logic. Suddenly when faced with the prospect of an intra op death they reconsidered.
 
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With dysphagia to solids and bilateral wheezing, got to think of a right aortic arch/vascular ring as well.
 
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Nah. Nothing urgent about the fracture. Put her in a sling for comfort while working up her other issues. Optimize her pulmonary issues and figure out wtf is causing her trachea to deviate so much.

After that nonsense gets sorted out, I would definitely tube her +/- a phrenic nerve sparing block (suprascapular block if it would cover the operative area), and wouldn’t hesitate to leave her intubated postoperatively if her pulmonary status remained garbage following her “medical optimization.”

Will she make it off the vent? Maybe, probably not. But this lady’s morbidity / mortality is ridiculously high, and she should probably be on hospice. I’m not going to try to be a ‘cowboy’ (at the expense of my sanity, my stress levels, and my license) in the one in a million chance that she makes a meaningful recovery. I’ll give her the safest anesthetic I can without trying to do “cowboy-esque” things, but won’t do anything that increases the chances of her kicking the bucket under my watch, even if it may lead to her potentially having a better outcome (ie: not being on the vent postop).
Hold on a second. She should be in a hospice based on what? Being obese, with low sats and an abnormal cxr but no diagnosis of anything as yet other than dm?

Sure she may go that way, but good lord youre a bit of a grim reaper eh?

Meaningful recovery? Shes not had a stroke, and weve not been told anything of heart failure or renal failure? So far shes broken her arm. Shes 200lbs so likely nourished too.

When we talk about Meaningful recovery our patients likely have had multiple strokes on ecmo, crrt...
 
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Last week while I was board runner, I got a call from one of our orthopods who is not a cowboy. Patient was a 96 yo with a hip fracture. His initial question to me was how long the patient needed to be off eliquis for a spinal since that is what the IM doctor recommended. It had been 3 days so that was not an issue. But the patient had CHF/COPD and was DNR. She was on HFNC with O2 sat 85-90%, this was after a couple days diuresis. I told him it wasn’t a good idea to do surgery under spinal on somebody with no pulmonary reserve, that there was a real possibility that they would need ventilatory support intraop. I also added that while we would probably have no problem getting her through surgery under GA/ETT, she would need ICU monitoring postop and possibly require postop ventilation. The orthopedist relayed this to the patient and the family. The family said they’d be willing to accept postop ventilation for up to 24hrs, but not longer. The orthopedist told them he cannot guarantee that. At that point the patient and the family opted for comfort care.
 
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Even without the imaging, I think I would postpone for cardiopulmonary workup just from the SpO2 alone. I don’t think I’ve ever had a patient not in the ICU with that kind of baseline. Is that a reasonable position?

Of note, I think ortho is especially prone to taking anesthesia risks lightly. The last time I had a questionably “urgent” case in a sick guy they were certain that it couldn’t wait a day. The guy had a DNAR and refused to adjust it at all. Said he would do the surgery but if he coded to just let him die. 90 year old dude, pretty reasonable logic. Suddenly when faced with the prospect of an intra op death they reconsidered.
I personally have never understood the logic of reversing DNR for a procedure. If something about your value calculation has decided that all of the sequelae of cpr is not appropriate why does that magically have to change in the OR? Why not offer an intervention and if the unlikely scenario if death occurs accept it if the pt understands?
 
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As much as the term 'pre-load dependent' makes my skin crawl...by that xray, the *potential* for a perioperative arrest from the slightest induced reduction in venous return is breathtaking...
 
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I personally have never understood the logic of reversing DNR for a procedure. If something about your value calculation has decided that all of the sequelae of cpr is not appropriate why does that magically have to change in the OR? Why not offer an intervention and if the unlikely scenario if death occurs accept it if the pt understands?

Sometimes DNR patients arrest for easily reversible, iatrogenic reasons unique to the OR, eg acute blood loss, too much propofol, etc, and not from progression of their terminal disease process. It’s nice to have permission to bring them back when that happens. Resuscitation can mean 20 mcg epi and 10 chest compressions.
 
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Hold on a second. She should be in a hospice based on what? Being obese, with low sats and an abnormal cxr but no diagnosis of anything as yet other than dm?

Sure she may go that way, but good lord youre a bit of a grim reaper eh?

Meaningful recovery? Shes not had a stroke, and weve not been told anything of heart failure or renal failure? So far shes broken her arm. Shes 200lbs so likely nourished too.

When we talk about Meaningful recovery our patients likely have had multiple strokes on ecmo, crrt...
Gomers go to hospice all the time. Don’t need to have a terminal disease.
 
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Sometimes DNR patients arrest for easily reversible, iatrogenic reasons unique to the OR, eg acute blood loss, too much propofol, etc, and not from progression of their terminal disease process. It’s nice to have permission to bring them back when that happens. Resuscitation can mean 20 mcg epi and 10 chest compressions.
And what if the outcome of epi and 20 compressions isn't as rosy as that sounds and they'd rather just die, why not allow them that autonomy? What if the cause isn't that reversible and they don't want to go through that? I just don't understand why the unassailable position is that one cannot receive surgical care as a DNR patient
 
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I don’t think doing the case is necessarily incorrect. But doing a case without any workup tk explain the CXR and hypoxia is reckless. Need a CT chest. Humerus fracture is not an emergency, can be fixed electively in several days.
 
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And what if the outcome of epi and 20 compressions isn't as rosy as that sounds and they'd rather just die, why not allow them that autonomy? What if the cause isn't that reversible and they don't want to go through that? I just don't understand why the unassailable position is that one cannot receive surgical care as a DNR patient

We have three options on the DNR form: rescind and do everything possible, don’t do anything at all no matter what, or leave it up to the physicians to decide whether to resuscitate or not. 99% of my patients have chosen the last option.
 
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And what if the outcome of epi and 20 compressions isn't as rosy as that sounds and they'd rather just die, why not allow them that autonomy? What if the cause isn't that reversible and they don't want to go through that? I just don't understand why the unassailable position is that one cannot receive surgical care as a DNR patient
Shouldn't DNR and surgical intervention be mutually exclusive? DNR's are suspended for surgery for very good reason...putting anesthesiologists in a 'shoot, don't shoot' situation is criminal, IMHO. Everyone want's the patient to do 'well'. Allowing the patient to choose to be allowed to die does not include providing surgery and anesthesia to someone that wants it unless they don't...I have to look at myself in the mirror years after someone decides they want me to take them to surgery and then allow them to die in my hands....
 
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