Interesting facts about med school in Denmark

[StLaminated]

So i saw the thread about the Finnish medical schools, but felt some questions were not answered adequately/accurately. The Danish healthcare system is one of the best in the world, and is similar to the Finnish in many ways, but with a few important differences, especially when it comes to doctors' salaries. I'll try and make a similar overview:

1) Medical school is 100% free, no tuition fees. Goverment supports our costs of living by about 150-750$ a month. The amount is based on whether you live with your parents (and calculated based on their income) or you live alone (in which case you always receive 750$). A few factors can increase the suppport further, such as having children.

2) Admission into med school is based 80% on HS grades, 20% on admission test, although government is planning on bringing this to 50/50. We have no interviews or recommendation letters. You can choose to apply with either your HS grades or apply to the admission test/assessment. About 5-20% of the applicants are accepted depending on the university.

3) Physician salary is usually somewhere between 90k-130k ($), but with significant variations.

4) In case of medical error the compensation for the patient or patient's family is handles entirely by the hospital, which has its own insurance to cover all employees - potential "punishments" are then handled internally. In Denmark most physicians have no "workplace insurances" (not sure what the similar English/American term is).

5) Students are given a big responsibility. We can work in a hospital alone as a physician "subsitute" prescribing drugs etc. after 4th year (it's 6 years to graduate). Research and student teaching is also common. "Elite" students are actively promoted and granted greater responsibilities.

6) Top-quality healthcare is an ingrained part of Danish culture, and many people from Norway, Sweden and Finland to come to Denmark to study medicine. A large part of the population is involved in health/medicine in some way.

I'm sure i forgot something, but feel free to ask questions

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[bashwell]

So i saw the thread about the Finnish medical schools, but felt some questions were not answered adequately/accurately. The Danish healthcare system is one of the best in the world, and is similar to the Finnish in many ways, but with a few important differences, especially when it comes to doctors' salaries. I'll try and make a similar overview:

1) Medical school is 100% free, no tuition fees. Goverment supports our costs of living by about 150-750$ a month. The amount is based on whether you live with your parents (and calculated based on their income) or you live alone (in which case you always receive 750$). A few factors can increase the suppport further, such as having children.

2) Admission into med school is based 80% on HS grades, 20% on admission test, although government is planning on bringing this to 50/50. We have no interviews or recommendation letters. You can choose to apply with either your HS grades or apply to the admission test/assessment. About 5-20% of the applicants are accepted depending on the university.

3) Physician salary is usually somewhere between 90k-130k ($), but with significant variations.

4) In case of medical error the compensation for the patient or patient's family is handles entirely by the hospital, which has its own insurance to cover all employees - potential "punishments" are then handled internally. In Denmark most physicians have no "workplace insurances" (not sure what the similar English/American term is).

5) Students are given a big responsibility. We can work in a hospital alone as a physician "subsitute" prescribing drugs etc. after 4th year (it's 6 years to graduate). Research and student teaching is also common. "Elite" students are actively promoted and granted greater responsibilities.

6) Top-quality healthcare is an ingrained part of Danish culture, and many people from Norway, Sweden and Finland to come to Denmark to study medicine. A large part of the population is involved in health/medicine in some way.

I'm sure i forgot something, but feel free to ask questions

This isn't medicine-related, but any truth to this?

http://satwcomic.com/sweden-denmark-and-norway

 

[bashwell]

Also, as an Australian, thank you for welcoming Mary.

 

[StLaminated]

This isn't medicine-related, but any truth to this?

Yea, i guess it is kinda true

Flag in hand: we have a reputation of being somewhat nationalistic, and we use the Danish flag in most celebrations - mainly on birthdays though

Beer in hand: yup, we drink a lot in Denmark. Alcohol is a huge part of especially the youth social culture, and i do believe many of the exchange students + students from rest of Scandinavia are shocked by this at first. But the whole alcohol debate is a topic for a thread on its own...

Shirt: the red shirt with 3 yellow circles/suns is a "Bevar Christiania" shirt, meaning "Preserve Christiania". Christiania is an infamous "autonomous" part of Copenhagen, where hashish/marijuana is sold in booths in plain sight at broad daylight. Some years ago, police started raiding christiania regularily in an attempt to restore "order" in the area, which infuriated all the hippies & leftists in town, so they started selling this shirt. It became extremely popular very quickly, as a cheap way to brand yourself "alternative" or "non-conformist". A counter-shirt was also made, where one of the suns was replaced by a bulldozer, and the back of the shirt saying "Remove Christiania".
- the support for Christiania has vained a bit in recent years though, especially after it came to light that the trade of cannabis was tightly regulated/controlled by MC-gangs such as Hells Angels.. not a paticularily popular group among far leftists.. So you won't see a lot of people wearing these anymore

As for the Swede and Norwegian, i'm not really sure. But they do fish a lot in Norway

Also, as an Australian, thank you for welcoming Mary.

We are very happy with her here - she's immensely popular

 

[nonick123]

Can you give some more info about the residency programs( for a EU student)

 

[Stagg737]

Can patients choose which physician they see or do they have to go to whoever the government tells them? Example, can a patient choose or pay to see a more experienced, better physician than a 4th or 5th year medical student or do they just go to a hospital and receive care from whoever the hospital chooses?

 

[Señor S]

How do medical students select their specialty? Are some specialties (which ones?) more competitive than others, and if so what must one do as a student to get into those specialties?

 

[StLaminated]

Can patients choose which physician they see or do they have to go to whoever the government tells them? Example, can a patient choose or pay to see a more experienced, better physician than a 4th or 5th year medical student or do they just go to a hospital and receive care from whoever the hospital chooses?

In a hospital setting, a patient is free to choose which hospital he/she wants to be treated at, but cannot choose a specific doctor at the ward or hospital he/she chooses. Realistically though, a patient with a complicated condition/major trauma would never be treated by a 4'th or 5'th year student. I believe the role which students have at hospitals here is comparable to the role PA's have in the US, with some freedom to prescribe medicine and treat, but always under supervision by a consultant.

In regards to general practioners, people are free to choose any doctor they want - however, there may be a waiting list for some of the absolutely most popular ones (rare).

There are a few privately owned hospitals, but they mostly do outpatient surgery, plastics/cosmetics, derma, gynaecology and a few others. Most patients at these private hospitals have some kind of advanced insurance, and don't pay the hospitals directly. Also, 80% of the private doctors have it as sideline job while still working public hospitals/clinics.

 

[StLaminated]

How do medical students select their specialty? Are some specialties (which ones?) more competitive than others, and if so what must one do as a student to get into those specialties?

Every year, the ministry of health decides a set number of residency openings for each speciality, based on the (projected) national needs. These numbers tend to be pretty much constant every year though, and are spread across various hospitals in the country. Medical students can apply to as many as they want. Applicants are then selected based primarily on classical factors: grades (particularily in the subjects relating to the speciality that is being applited to), research and personal statement/motivation.

Obviously, some specialites are more popular and thus more competitive than others. The easiest way to see which specialities are the most competitive is simply to divide the amount of applicants with the amount of openings. The consistently top 5 are:

1) Plastics
2) Thoracic surgery
3) OB/GYN
4) Neurosurgery
5) Anaesthesia

Interestingly, one of the least popular specialites is family/general practioner, even though this is the speciality with the 2'nd highest average salary.

 

[Señor S]

Every year, the ministry of health decides a set number of residency openings for each speciality, based on the (projected) national needs. These numbers tend to be pretty much constant every year though, and are spread across various hospitals in the country. Medical students can apply to as many as they want. Applicants are then selected based primarily on classical factors: grades (particularily in the subjects relating to the speciality that is being applited to), research and personal statement/motivation.

Obviously, some specialites are more popular and thus more competitive than others. The easiest way to see which specialities are the most competitive is simply to divide the amount of applicants with the amount of openings. The consistently top 5 are:

1) Plastics
2) Thoracic surgery
3) OB/GYN
4) Neurosurgery
5) Anaesthesia

Interestingly, one of the least popular specialites is family/general practioner, even though this is the speciality with the 2'nd highest average salary.

Interesting. The popular specialties are similar to the USA with the notable exceptions of OB/Gyn and Anesthesia (the list here would probably be something like Plastics, Derm, ENT, Ortho, Neurosurg). General practitioner is also quite unpopular here although it's also one of the lowest-paying. Process sounds pretty similar to our residency "match."

Thanks for the response.

 

[PhillyMed777]

I really hope neurosurgeons don't make between your quoted 90-130k...

 

[StLaminated]

I really hope neurosurgeons don't make between your quoted 90-130k...

How come?

 

[bashwell]

How come?

Just guessing but maybe Tri723 means because neurosurgeons make a lot more than that in the States/USA (probably more like $500k+ per year)?

 

[PhillyMed777]

How come?

Mostly because it's a really difficult job that requires a lot of dedication
...neurosurgery here in the US is a competitive speciality with 7 difficult years in post graduate training.

 

[libraryismyhome]

Danish women are the most beautiful ones in the world. They chase you though you don't make as much as US physicians.
therefore, much more bang for the buck.

 

[PhillyMed777]

Danish women are the most beautiful ones in the world. They chase you though you don't make as much as US physicians.
therefore, much more bang for the buck.

lol, was that intentional?

also forgetting about the women for a second,
what about exotic cars? not happening. I also have a Danish friend and he says cars are mad expensive in Denmark

 

[StLaminated]

Just guessing but maybe Tri723 means because neurosurgeons make a lot more than that in the States/USA (probably more like $500k+ per year)?

Mostly because it's a really difficult job that requires a lot of dedication
...neurosurgery here in the US is a competitive speciality with 7 difficult years in post graduate training.

Yea, i think salary of Scandinavian doctors is the factor that US doctors/students almost always mention, and consider subpar in comparison to the US. While there are obviously some doctors who make a lot more in the US than what is possible in Denmark, the wage gap between specialities is much bigger in the us. It's also hard to compare salaries between US and DK directly, mainly due to the fact that many of the expenses US doctors have, we simply don't have. Some examples i think even the gap between the countries a bit:

- No student debt
- No health insurance needed (free healthcare)
- No malpractice insurance needed
- Schools, gymnasiums (sort of like HS), and all universities are public = free, so no need to save up for kids education
- An extra 18% is added to your salary and put in a seperate pension fond that you get access to once you retire (not sure if you have a similar system in the US)
- You get compensation for all travel expenses to and from work

I'm conflicted as to whether i prefer this system or a more liberal/privatized system like the one in the US. Pros and cons with both. Just wanted to say that direct salary comparisons can be misleading

lol, was that intentional?

also forgetting about the women for a second,
what about exotic cars? not happening. I also have a Danish friend and he says cars are mad expensive in Denmark

Yes, cars are horribly expensive. This is because there are no Danish car producers, so it's a major flow of money going out the country whenever people buy a car. To counter this, government simply added a 100% tax to the smallest cars, 180% on the largest. This means that cars in Denmark are at least twice as expensive as in most other countries.

Ironically/absurdly, the social democratic party (in power 2011-2015) decided to remove the tax on all elecric cars, which has made a brand new Tesla S the cheapest luxury/sports-car you can get.

 

[deleted480308]

Do your salary numbers reflect pre or post the ~60% income tax?

 

[StLaminated]

Do your salary numbers reflect pre or post the ~60% income tax?

Pre - but the income tax is probably closer to 48-50%. Still a high number though.

 

[deleted480308]

Pre - but the income tax is probably closer to 48-50%. Still a high number though.

8%general, ~24% state, ~24% municipal, 8% health at the higher brackets....they take more than half your money

 

[wjs010]

Yea, i think salary of Scandinavian doctors is the factor that US doctors/students almost always mention, and consider subpar in comparison to the US. While there are obviously some doctors who make a lot more in the US than what is possible in Denmark, the wage gap between specialities is much bigger in the us. It's also hard to compare salaries between US and DK directly, mainly due to the fact that many of the expenses US doctors have, we simply don't have. Some examples i think even the gap between the countries a bit:

- No student debt
- No health insurance needed (free healthcare)
- No malpractice insurance needed
- Schools, gymnasiums (sort of like HS), and all universities are public = free, so no need to save up for kids education
- An extra 18% is added to your salary and put in a seperate pension fond that you get access to once you retire (not sure if you have a similar system in the US)
- You get compensation for all travel expenses to and from work

I'm conflicted as to whether i prefer this system or a more liberal/privatized system like the one in the US. Pros and cons with both. Just wanted to say that direct salary comparisons can be misleading



Yes, cars are horribly expensive. This is because there are no Danish car producers, so it's a major flow of money going out the country whenever people buy a car. To counter this, government simply added a 100% tax to the smallest cars, 180% on the largest. This means that cars in Denmark are at least twice as expensive as in most other countries.

Ironically/absurdly, the social democratic party (in power 2011-2015) decided to remove the tax on all elecric cars, which has made a brand new Tesla S the cheapest luxury/sports-car you can get.

Curious... Why don't you need malpractice insurance there?

 

[StLaminated]

8%general, ~24% state, ~24% municipal, 8% health at the higher brackets....they take more than half your money

Nah, it really is closer to 50%, especially when taking into account the many tax-free allowances we have. But i still agree that it's too high.

Curious... Why don't you need malpractice insurance there?

Hospitals have their own insurance which covers all employees. There's also not a strong law-suit culture in Denmark, and it's hard to get economical compensation the same way as in the US.

 

[wjs010]

Nah, it really is closer to 50%, especially when taking into account the many tax-free allowances we have. But i still agree that it's too high.



Hospitals have their own insurance which covers all employees. There's also not a strong law-suit culture in Denmark, and it's hard to get economical compensation the same way as in the US.

Ahh I wish it was like that here. Not the salaries though. Salaries in Denmark suck. After you get done paying off your loans here you can make quite a bit. Can't imagine going to school that long and making 90k

 

[wjs010]

Nah, it really is closer to 50%, especially when taking into account the many tax-free allowances we have. But i still agree that it's too high.



Hospitals have their own insurance which covers all employees. There's also not a strong law-suit culture in Denmark, and it's hard to get economical compensation the same way as in the US.

But yea I totally get the culture is probably more sophisticated and educated there. USA is not the sharpest bunch. I wish we were more Scandinavian.

 

[W19]

Can a physician have a nice lifestyle with 90-130k/year?

For instance, physicians here are on the spectrum of upper-middle-class to wealthy... They (or most) can afford to live in 4,000+ sqft home in a nice neighborhood, send their kids to private school, have a couple a vacations per year, drive a nice car etc... Can a Danish physician afford these stuff?

 

[hossle12]

Can a physician have a nice lifestyle with 90-130k/year?

For instance, physicians here are on the spectrum of upper-middle-class to wealthy... They (or most) can afford to live in 4,000+ sqft home in a nice neighborhood, send their kids to private school, have a couple a vacations per year, drive a nice car etc... Can a Danish physician afford these stuff?

I think they probably don't care as much about material things like that as much as we do. Money runs everything in American. The idea of what's important in life and how life is enjoyed is very different from Americans and the Scandinavians (and almost any other culture).

 

[deleted480308]

I think they probably don't care as much about material things like that as much as we do. Money runs everything in American. The idea of what's important in life and how life is enjoyed is very different from Americans and the Scandinavians (and almost any other culture).

That's a very long "no"

 

[Señor S]

That's a very long "no"

A big house filled with junk isn't the ideal in most places outside the US. I think I'd be a lot happier without having to structure my life around avoiding the favela-like conditions that exist in a large and growing part of this country.

 

[hossle12]

That's a very long "no"

Yea, but "nice lifestyle" has a very different meaning depending on who you ask that brings in other factors besides money.

 

[Psai]

Danish women are the most beautiful ones in the world. They chase you though you don't make as much as US physicians.
therefore, much more bang for the buck.

Hm how hard is it to become a citizen...

 

[libraryismyhome]

Hm how hard is it to become a citizen...

You can be a doc and marry one of hot danish girls?

 

[deleted716403]

Can a physician have a nice lifestyle with 90-130k/year?

For instance, physicians here are on the spectrum of upper-middle-class to wealthy... They (or most) can afford to live in 4,000+ sqft home in a nice neighborhood, send their kids to private school, have a couple a vacations per year, drive a nice car etc... Can a Danish physician afford these stuff?

Note: med school is 100% free over there + monthly stipend. No absurd malpractice insurance, either.
Germany, France, Austria, Switzerland + other Scandinavian countries are similar to Denmark in this regard.
I would take 90-130k/year without debt/nuisances over 200-300k year + 300k debt + malpractice.

 

[deleted480308]

Note: med school is 100% free over there + monthly stipend. No absurd malpractice insurance, either.
Germany, France, Austria, Switzerland + other Scandinavian countries are similar to Denmark in this regard.
I would take 90-130k/year without debt/nuisances over 200-300k year + 300k debt + malpractice.

then you aren't good at math

 

[deleted716403]

then you aren't good at math

It's not all about numbers for me.

 

[deleted480308]

It's not all about numbers for me.

you compared two sets of numbers and chose one to be preferable...feel free to point out the things that would make you choose a worse set of numbers

 

[Doudline]

you compared two sets of numbers and chose one to be preferable...feel free to point out the things that would make you choose a worse set of numbers

Long term financial prospects are not everything.

It's virtually impossible to leave the medical profession in the USA unless your debt is paid off. Debt is a stressful situation that impacts life quality for many physicians. Having to worry constantly about malpractice lawsuits and all the trigger-happy lawyer stuff in America impacts your freedom and satisfaction as a provider.

And needless to say, the social security net is miles ahead in Denmark. Physicians benefit from that too.

 

[deleted716403]

I think there are some values that are lost in the American society today: health, family, safety, quality of life. EU health insurance is non-profit. There are no investors demanding a big dividend or stock that grows in value every quarter. Drug prices are controlled, instead of the "monopoly pricing" US drug companies charge here. Malpractice is a headache in the US.
It isn't just health care that is different, it's a whole lot of things. In our system, we can't always do what is best for the patients. 90-130k seems low to us but in Europe where the average income is about 35k, earning 90k puts you in the top 1% no question. In the US, you're not the only one living on that 200-300k pre-tax - you'll have to pay off your loan AND your children's loans, too. Money aside, I am more surprised at physicians' reluctance to react to loss of autonomy on so many levels. From agreeing to work for corp med, to the generations ago shift of physicians billing the insurance company directly, doctors have not been effective at advocating for themselves or their patients for generations. Mid-levels (PA, NP, CRNA) are taking over in some specialties (some happen to be the specialties that I love). I remain steadfast in my desire to be independent and do what I think is best for my patients, even at a significant cut in pay. But I fail to understand why we don't have the desire to unionize. I have to admit though when I do I remind myself to consider moving overseas to practice medicine. With college shootings, police brutality, and tuition increasing at unbelievable rates and more colleges becoming for-profit entities, I'll most likely send my future children to European universities.