Interesting hypothetical: What's your opinion?

[appleluver7]

The thread on misrepresentation on AMCAS is interesting and has provoked many responses. Most people including myself feel misrepresentation is unethical. However, consider this scenario, as I know a few people at Brown. Brown University, an Ivy League university, allows students to drop classes days before the end of the semester with no penalty and no record of having attempted the class. The University also permits students to fail courses without penalty.

How do you feel about Brown University, which allows students to fail classes without being recorded on the transcript? If you fail a class at Brown, the class is not recorded. In fact, there is no evidence the student even took the class. Do you think this is unethical of Brown? Students at Brown could effectively take orgo a couple of times, failing each time and then finally achieve that grade of A. Only of course the A would be recorded and it would only show that the student took the class once. Even if someone found out the student took orgo multiple times, how would this affect the student, since it wasn't the student's fault that Brown didn't release the previous failing grades? In other words, the student sent her transcript from Brown to AMCAS, but Brown was the one doing the concealing. Law2Doc: In a court case: who would be responsible for concealing? Brown or the student?

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[QuantumMechanic]

The thread on misrepresentation on AMCAS is interesting and has provoked many responses. Most people including myself feel misrepresentation is unethical. However, consider this scenario, as I know a few people at Brown. Brown University, an Ivy League university, allows students to drop classes days before the end of the semester with no penalty and no record of having attempted the class. The University also permits students to fail courses without penalty.

How do you feel about Brown University, which allows students to fail classes without being recorded on the transcript? If you fail a class at Brown, the class is not recorded. In fact, there is no evidence the student even took the class. Do you think this is unethical of Brown? Students at Brown could effectively take orgo a couple of times, failing each time and then finally achieve that grade of A. Only of course the A would be recorded and it would only show that the student took the class once. Even if someone found out the student took orgo multiple times, how would this affect the student, since it wasn't the student's fault that Brown didn't release the previous failing grades? In other words, the student sent her transcript from Brown to AMCAS, but Brown was the one doing the concealing. Law2Doc: In a court case: who would be responsible for concealing? Brown or the student?

The AMCAS doesnt require you to list courses which are "dropped." Brown just extends this drop period much much longer than other institutions which use a "withdraw" notation for this extended decision not to get credit for the course.

 

[silas2642]

The thread on misrepresentation on AMCAS is interesting and has provoked many responses. Most people including myself feel misrepresentation is unethical. However, consider this scenario, as I know a few people at Brown. Brown University, an Ivy League university, allows students to drop classes days before the end of the semester with no penalty and no record of having attempted the class. The University also permits students to fail courses without penalty.

How do you feel about Brown University, which allows students to fail classes without being recorded on the transcript? If you fail a class at Brown, the class is not recorded. In fact, there is no evidence the student even took the class. Do you think this is unethical of Brown? Students at Brown could effectively take orgo a couple of times, failing each time and then finally achieve that grade of A. Only of course the A would be recorded and it would only show that the student took the class once. Even if someone found out the student took orgo multiple times, how would this affect the student, since it wasn't the student's fault that Brown didn't release the previous failing grades? In other words, the student sent her transcript from Brown to AMCAS, but Brown was the one doing the concealing. Law2Doc: In a court case: who would be responsible for concealing? Brown or the student?

But isn't this playing fair? I mean, it's not as if Brown tries to keep it a secret that their policy is to not show any failures of a student on their transcript-- apparently this is common knowledge; you knew it, and I'm sure most adcoms are pretty aware of this policy.

 

[appleluver7]

The AMCAS doesnt require you to list courses which are "dropped." Brown just extends this drop period much much longer than other institutions which use a "withdraw" notation for this extended decision not to get credit for the course.

But if you fail the course it is as though you've never taken it...it doesn't even appear as a dropped course or as a withdraw.

 

[jackieMD2007]

You already asked this question in the other thread.
BTW, I don't think Brown is part of some Ivy League conspiracy or anything...if that really, truly is their policy, and they aren't trying to hide it, then wouldn't schools know that the GPAS from Brown are going to be inflated? In theory? But lets not turn this into an Ivy League GPA pissing contest, okay!

 

[QuantumMechanic]

You already asked this question in the other thread.
BTW, I don't think Brown is part of some Ivy League conspiracy or anything...if that really, truly is their policy, and they aren't trying to hide it, then wouldn't schools know that the GPAS from Brown are going to be inflated? In theory? But lets not turn this into an Ivy League GPA pissing contest, okay!

the gpa isn't inflated unless the student wouldve failed the course. I assume most premeds don't perform that poorly.

 

[appleluver7]

You already asked this question in the other thread.
BTW, I don't think Brown is part of some Ivy League conspiracy or anything...if that really, truly is their policy, and they aren't trying to hide it, then wouldn't schools know that the GPAS from Brown are going to be inflated? In theory? But lets not turn this into an Ivy League GPA pissing contest, okay!

http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Dean_of_the_College/documents/GPA_Statement.pdf

This is what Brown says. Brown students are at no disadvantage in applying to medical school due to this policy. In fact, Brown is in the top 5 institutions in the country for admission to medical school with 95% of those applying for admission to medical school gaining entrance.

 

[xanthomondo]

thats quite an arrogant thread title, PM him if you want his opinion rather than publicly challenging him

 

[relentless11]

thats quite an arrogant thread title, PM him if you want his opinion rather than publicly challenging him

I agree, and I also think this topic is moot. There are many schools out there that have various kinds of grading systems, and when publically known such as in the case of Brown, then med schools will adjust accordingly. The equalizer in this case would be the MCAT. As we all know, the MCAT provides a standardized medium for which adcoms can compare student A to student B, while GPA and the classes you take serves as a metric for gauging workload, breadth and diversity. Ultimately a student from Brown will have to stay full-time. If they fail a class, and it is dropped, then he/she would have one less class, and this would show up on the AMCAS. A 4.0 with just a mere 2 classes is not impressive.

Again, variations in grading methodology among schools is moot. There are some schools that don't even provide a letter grade, yet med schools are still able to deal with this in some form or another. QofQuimica can no doubt vouch for this. Off the top of my head, at least at one time, UC Santa Cruz, by default, graded by evaluation. If you wanted a letter grade, you had to submit a petition for each class you take.

In the end, GPA/MCAT serve a single variable among a complex multivariate equation. So the extent at which this topic has expanded too appears to be more of something which should be taken to PMs rather than a public scene.

 

[QofQuimica]

Again, variations in grading methodology among schools is moot. There are some schools that don't even provide a letter grade, yet med schools are still able to deal with this in some form or another. QofQuimica can no doubt vouch for this. Off the top of my head, at least at one time, UC Santa Cruz, by default, graded by evaluation. If you wanted a letter grade, you had to submit a petition for each class you take.

Not only did I not have grades, but my college does not list any courses dropped or failed on our transcripts. Our transcript is merely a list of courses passed. It's hard enough getting AMCAS to verify you under the best of circumstances. So, OP, if you're a student at Brown and this is their policy, my advice to you is to obtain an unofficial copy of your transcript, and list whatever is on your transcript, no more and no less, on your AMCAS *exactly* as it is listed on your transcript. Brown is a pretty well-known school, so I doubt you'll get much hassle coming from there.

 

[kypdurron5]

The thread on misrepresentation on AMCAS is interesting and has provoked many responses. Most people including myself feel misrepresentation is unethical. However, consider this scenario, as I know a few people at Brown. Brown University, an Ivy League university, allows students to drop classes days before the end of the semester with no penalty and no record of having attempted the class. The University also permits students to fail courses without penalty.

How do you feel about Brown University, which allows students to fail classes without being recorded on the transcript? If you fail a class at Brown, the class is not recorded. In fact, there is no evidence the student even took the class. Do you think this is unethical of Brown? Students at Brown could effectively take orgo a couple of times, failing each time and then finally achieve that grade of A. Only of course the A would be recorded and it would only show that the student took the class once. Even if someone found out the student took orgo multiple times, how would this affect the student, since it wasn't the student's fault that Brown didn't release the previous failing grades? In other words, the student sent her transcript from Brown to AMCAS, but Brown was the one doing the concealing. Law2Doc: In a court case: who would be responsible for concealing? Brown or the student?

I agree with what's been said here. Different schools have different policies, it's their right to do that. My school only gives you x number of retakes, but it still lists the course on the transcript, it just doesn't count it in the GPA. I've heard that next year they're going to stop listing it all together, but they're also going to lower the number retakes you're allowed. I think to balance this out AMCAS should stop counting course that were retaken for a higher grade if the school doesn't count it. I'm not certain they do this, but it's what I read in the AMCAS materials- we'll see when my application is verified. Anyway, it's really not misrepresentation any more than hating kids and not mentioning that during an interview. Or, what about that joint you smoked in 10th grade...is it misrepresentation not to volunteer that fact? I'm sure they'd like to know (whether they ask or not). AMCAS wants an "official" transcript from the school...therefore if the school chooses not to count retakes they are within their right to do so.

 

[cbennett]

During the summer sessions at UCLA you can drop courses after the class AS LONG AS YOU DID NOT TAKE THE FINAL(either before or after if you skip it, not sure how many days after but you are def allowed after) and nothing shows up on your transcript. The only thing you need to do is get some form that basicaly states that you did not take the final. It realy is "getting permision to drop but they will sign it if you have not taken the final

 

[mvenus929]

On a related note, how do you all feel about a college that grades something like 80% on effort alone, rather than performance? This was a big debate in our high school, and basically everyone in classes with me disagreed with the policy.

 

[kypdurron5]

On a related note, how do you all feel about a college that grades something like 80% on effort alone, rather than performance? This was a big debate in our high school, and basically everyone in classes with me disagreed with the policy.

You mean individual classes, or the university as a whole? I would disagree with it being university-wide. I mean, let's face it, do you want a doctor who performed well in his classes, or one who "tried hard?" I realize we're probably talking undergraduate, but still. On the individual class level I completely agree that it should be an option. For instance, French. It is unrealistic to expect that every student is going to reach the same level of learnedness in a language after taking a language class. Thus, I could see a teacher taking "effort" into consideration much more than in say, a math class. On the other hand, one could argue that if the expectation is that you must work hard to get a good grade, then performance will automatically follow. Still, I think that having such a policy university-wide is a bad idea.

 

[Carmenita79]

I thought this thread was "whats your opinion of Law2Doc".... I guess I have nothing to add.

 

[defrunner]

Saying that someone "tried" hard is just a nice way of saying they failed. In an athletic competition, you never see someone finishing first and then saying afterwards, "I tried hard!"

Effort is great (I hate seeing loads of potential going to waste because they didn't put the time and effort in), but ultimately results are what matters. A good work ethic will take you very far, but it won't put you over the hump if you're just not that naturally gifted in that area.

Just a realistic view. I hate the word "try".

 

[defrunner]

By the way, not listing courses dropped or failed is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. That's just amazing to me that someone can take a class all semester and find out that if they're going to fail anyway, not to show up for the final and not have it count at all. I mean, it isn't like I'm a gunner at all (trust me on this), but I just think that people should be held accountable for whatever they do, no matter how well or poorly they do.

Edit to my previous post: "trying" is acceptable up until like high school or something; of course I don't want to make kids feel bad about themselves. But at some point, we all need to grow up and say that ultimately, the results are what matters, not the effort put in.

Not to get back into sports, but nobody remembers the losers of championship games.

 

[riceman04]

The thread on misrepresentation on AMCAS is interesting and has provoked many responses. Most people including myself feel misrepresentation is unethical. However, consider this scenario, as I know a few people at Brown. Brown University, an Ivy League university, allows students to drop classes days before the end of the semester with no penalty and no record of having attempted the class. The University also permits students to fail courses without penalty.

How do you feel about Brown University, which allows students to fail classes without being recorded on the transcript? If you fail a class at Brown, the class is not recorded. In fact, there is no evidence the student even took the class. Do you think this is unethical of Brown? Students at Brown could effectively take orgo a couple of times, failing each time and then finally achieve that grade of A. Only of course the A would be recorded and it would only show that the student took the class once. Even if someone found out the student took orgo multiple times, how would this affect the student, since it wasn't the student's fault that Brown didn't release the previous failing grades? In other words, the student sent her transcript from Brown to AMCAS, but Brown was the one doing the concealing. Law2Doc: In a court case: who would be responsible for concealing? Brown or the student?

Adcom members are quite aware of their grading scheme...

Now that is severe inflation...I should have applied there for undergrad.

 

[notdeadyet]

This is a nonissue. There are several schools that I know of that have this policy. If you fail a class, it is dropped from your transcript.

Are adcoms dumb? No. If you go to one of these schools, and they notice a light course load a semester or two, they'll know exactly what's happening.

Why do so many have this obsession with how the next guy has it easier? No one is prohibiting anyone on this med school from getting in. Work hard and achieve it. Complaining about why this group or that group, this college or that college, has it easier just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[jackieMD2007]

Anyone else find it amusing that Law2Doc is not on this thread at all?

 

[kypdurron5]

This is a nonissue. There are several schools that I know of that have this policy. If you fail a class, it is dropped from your transcript.

Are adcoms dumb? No. If you go to one of these schools, and they notice a light course load a semester or two, they'll know exactly what's happening.

Why do so many have this obsession with how the next guy has it easier? No one is prohibiting anyone on this med school from getting in. Work hard and achieve it. Complaining about why this group or that group, this college or that college, has it easier just doesn't make sense to me.

That's very true...plus, when they see that sudden light course-load they also may simply ask during an interview what's going on.

 

[zbruinz]

well, Brown is very funky. It's a school that lets rich kids (and other kids) do whatever they want.

 

[DoctorPardi]

Anyone else find it amusing that Law2Doc is not on this thread at all?

Law2Doc can not just be summoned to a thread like some legal servent of us simple premeds!

 

[mvenus929]

You mean individual classes, or the university as a whole? I would disagree with it being university-wide. I mean, let's face it, do you want a doctor who performed well in his classes, or one who "tried hard?"

I'm pretty sure it's the university as a whole, and if I remember correctly, it was on a stepped system, so as a Freshman, you got like 95% of the grade through effort, and by the time you were a senior, you got 80% through effort. I don't think it's wrong to have a portion of the grade for effort... my geography classes and English class all gave some sort of 'reward' for effort... extra points if you were there every day, or a grade devoted to participation. Now, I would think that people from this particular school wouldn't go to med school, but I've seen a few of them admitted into certain schools...

 

[Zuerst]

Funny you should mention what you did about Brown.

Last time I dropped off a package at Brown's facility, it just disappeared. No record whatsoever. It just went poof, gone, nowhere to be found.

I knew I should of went with Fedex or DHL or even the post office...

 

[tncekm]

Sorry, I know I'm now law2doc, but I have to chime in.

How do you feel about Brown University, which allows students to fail classes without being recorded on the transcript? If you fail a class at Brown, the class is not recorded. In fact, there is no evidence the student even took the class. Do you think this is unethical of Brown?

Of course that's unethical of brown. they're intentionally giving their students a horrendously unfair advantage.

This is one of those issues where I don't even understand as to how it is even being debated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[tncekm]

I agree, and I also think this topic is moot. There are many schools out there that have various kinds of grading systems, and when publically known such as in the case of Brown, then med schools will adjust accordingly.

They "can't" adjust accordingly because they don't have any idea who may have failed and who may not have failed. Its an impossibility!

The equalizer in this case would be the MCAT.

Not the equalizer, just the momentum shifter. ADCOM will make decisions based on factors including both MCAT and GPA so when a GPA is calculated in an unfair and DISHONEST fashion it is impossible to equalize anything. If they made any assumptions, they could hard students who really earned their grades.

This entire subject can drive me insane. In an effort (a politically correct / nonesense effort) to make accomplishment an "individual" event where no two people can be compared and where nobody is a loser it has become increasingly difficult for excellent people to shine and that is a travesty. Excellence should be celebrated not rejected.

 

[tncekm]

On a related note, how do you all feel about a college that grades something like 80% on effort alone, rather than performance? This was a big debate in our high school, and basically everyone in classes with me disagreed with the policy.

Its a stupid policy, period. I swear to God this world has gone mad. Imagine professional sports filled with people who had no talent, but got "an A for effort" hahaa.

 

[appleluver7]

Sorry, I know I'm now law2doc, but I have to chime in.
"Misrepresentation" in regards to acceptance into medical schools is (excuse the lame pun) a "misrepresentation" of the problem in itself.

There is no misrepresentation because, students admitted are representative of their academic achievements! Isn't that the way it should be? I, for one, HATE the idea that my academic achievements are worth less than other peoples achievements in certain institutions. It is entirely unethical and unfair.


Of course that's unethical of brown. they're intentionally giving their students a horrendously unfair advantage.

This is one of those issues where I don't even understand as to how it is even being debated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brown is not being "unethical" in my opinion. Brown exists as an institution not to cater to what AMCAS would like...Brown exists for itself as an Ivy League institution with a multibillion dollar endowment to serve its students and its community. Brown doesn't really give a flying **** what others want them to do. In the future, I think we will see more institutions move toward the Brown system where the student is at the center of the curriculum. Harvard is already considering major liberalizations to its curriculum and Yale is even closer than Harvard on this point.

Many people have suggested that AMCAS can "know" if a student failed a class because the schedule would only show 3 courses instead of 4 at Brown. This is not actually true, since brown requires 30 credits to graduate, AMCAS is aware that students will have at least two semesters in which they will have taken 3 courses--not 4. As a result, it would be impossible for AMCAS to infer if a student failed orgo for instance during the semester in which he took 3 classes. Finally, I'm sure Brown students could circumvent that problem simply by taking 5 classes in a semester and failing one would result in 4 total credits...

 

[appleluver7]

I agree, and I also think this topic is moot. There are many schools out there that have various kinds of grading systems, and when publically known such as in the case of Brown, then med schools will adjust accordingly. The equalizer in this case would be the MCAT. As we all know, the MCAT provides a standardized medium for which adcoms can compare student A to student B, while GPA and the classes you take serves as a metric for gauging workload, breadth and diversity. Ultimately a student from Brown will have to stay full-time. If they fail a class, and it is dropped, then he/she would have one less class, and this would show up on the AMCAS. A 4.0 with just a mere 2 classes is not impressive.

Again, variations in grading methodology among schools is moot. There are some schools that don't even provide a letter grade, yet med schools are still able to deal with this in some form or another. QofQuimica can no doubt vouch for this. Off the top of my head, at least at one time, UC Santa Cruz, by default, graded by evaluation. If you wanted a letter grade, you had to submit a petition for each class you take.

In the end, GPA/MCAT serve a single variable among a complex multivariate equation. So the extent at which this topic has expanded too appears to be more of something which should be taken to PMs rather than a public scene.

Full time at every school is variable. At Brown, there would be at least two semesters in which the student would be taking 3 courses. As a result, for AMCAS to infer a 3 course load was indicative of a failure would be an inappropriate jump in logic, something I don't forsee them doing. Therefore, it would be impossible for AMCAS to tell if a 3 course semester was a semester in which a student failed organic or simply a semester in which the student elected to do 3.

 

[relentless11]

They "can't" adjust accordingly because they don't have any idea who may have failed and who may not have failed. Its an impossibility!

Actually they can, as I pointed out, if they failed a class, they would have one less class taken during their semester. Given a lesser workload, the effect would be similar to students who received A's by taken 2-3 classes rather than the usual 4-6. Seriously though, if a person dropped 1 class (via failing) every now and then, yet maintaining a full-time courseload, who really cares? We've all waited till the last minute to drop a class before, and really as someone suggested above, if you are already doomed to fail, why would you still be registered for the class after the first or second midterm anyway?
Besides, if a person failed GChem, Physics, or whatever else, they would also have a hard time on the MCAT. It takes a lot to get an F in a class.

Not the equalizer, just the momentum shifter. ADCOM will make decisions based on factors including both MCAT and GPA so when a GPA is calculated in an unfair and DISHONEST fashion it is impossible to equalize anything. If they made any assumptions, they could hard students who really earned their grades.

Depends, I personally don't think Brown grades in an unfair and/or dishonest fashion. Its their school, and it is their prerogative to grade in the manner which best suits them, since not everyone at Brown intends to go to med school. This would be similar to the situation with graduate GPA vs. undergraduate GPA. Graduate level courses can be many times harder than undergrad courses, or sometimes easier. The grading scale is skewed due to higher standards, and more motivated students. Often times a B-/C+ (79%) is considered failing in grad level courses, and thus our students perform far better in both the grad and med level courses. Adcoms have a harder time comparing graduate GPA vs. conventional undergrad GPA due to these reasons, and thus as stated by many med schools including my own, MCAT will play an "equalizing" role.

You can search various SDN threads where PhD students who are going pre-med are advised to score in the 34+. Again, QofQuimica can probably chime in. She didn't even have grades as an undergrad, but her graduate GPA combined with an insane MCAT score got her into med school.

Full time at every school is variable. At Brown, there would be at least two semesters in which the student would be taking 3 courses. As a result, for AMCAS to infer a 3 course load was indicative of a failure would be an inappropriate jump in logic, something I don't forsee them doing. Therefore, it would be impossible for AMCAS to tell if a 3 course semester was a semester in which a student failed organic or simply a semester in which the student elected to do 3.

But we aren't talking about AMCAS here. AMCAS reports and confirms grades via transcripts. It is up to the adcoms to do indepth critique of your coursework, and I can guarantee that adcoms are well aware of the various kinds of courseload each school has. Our adcoms at UC Davis are quite aware of what you mentioned about Brown. I'm sure the rest of the UC med schools along with every other med school in the nation are quite aware of this as well. Regardless, this variability as you mentioned would favor the use of the MCAT once again.

 

[DoctorPardi]

On a related note, how do you all feel about a college that grades something like 80% on effort alone, rather than performance? This was a big debate in our high school, and basically everyone in classes with me disagreed with the policy.

It depends on how effort is addressed. If a school were able to truly grade "effort" I believe the score distributions would be similar to what they are now. Most people who are making C's and D's in college are really not trying, and generally the people making B's and A's are doing more work, much more for the latter. Of course, there are special circumstances where in a genius student needs to put forth very little effort to make an A and should not be penalized for this.

The thing is, there is no good way to test effort. If you take an English class that is largely baed on discussion instead of lecture then a professor could make your grade very involved with how prepared you are for class. This is reasonable and to a degree this is done at my university. Another thing is, generally the essays I had to write for my English classes were not something you could write over night and get an A on. The professor knew how much effort would need to be put into a compelling essay explaining a new theory about a particular book that the professor himself had not already considered (this was the criteria for an A paper at my school).

So in certain classes effort can be graded and in some cases is graded. For a class like gen chem, it wouldn't make much sense for you to grade on effort, some people just get how to work these problems and some people need to hundreds of them to get it down. So effort doesn't seem like it would be the appropriate means by which to score a student for that type of class.

 

[appleluver7]

Actually they can, as I pointed out, if they failed a class, they would have one less class taken during their semester. Given a lesser workload, the effect would be similar to students who received A's by taken 2-3 classes rather than the usual 4-6. Seriously though, if a person dropped 1 class (via failing) every now and then, yet maintaining a full-time courseload, who really cares? We've all waited till the last minute to drop a class before, and really as someone suggested above, if you are already doomed to fail, why would you still be registered for the class after the first or second midterm anyway?
Besides, if a person failed GChem, Physics, or whatever else, they would also have a hard time on the MCAT. It takes a lot to get an F in a class.



Depends, I personally don't think Brown grades in an unfair and/or dishonest fashion. Its their school, and it is their prerogative to grade in the manner which best suits them, since not everyone at Brown intends to go to med school. This would be similar to the situation with graduate GPA vs. undergraduate GPA. Graduate level courses can be many times harder than undergrad courses, or sometimes easier. The grading scale is skewed due to higher standards, and more motivated students. Often times a B-/C+ (79%) is considered failing in grad level courses, and thus our students perform far better in both the grad and med level courses. Adcoms have a harder time comparing graduate GPA vs. conventional undergrad GPA due to these reasons, and thus as stated by many med schools including my own, MCAT will play an "equalizing" role.

You can search various SDN threads where PhD students who are going pre-med are advised to score in the 34+. Again, QofQuimica can probably chime in. She didn't even have grades as an undergrad, but her graduate GPA combined with an insane MCAT score got her into med school.



But we aren't talking about AMCAS here. AMCAS reports and confirms grades via transcripts. It is up to the adcoms to do indepth critique of your coursework, and I can guarantee that adcoms are well aware of the various kinds of courseload each school has. Our adcoms at UC Davis are quite aware of what you mentioned about Brown. I'm sure the rest of the UC med schools along with every other med school in the nation are quite aware of this as well. Regardless, this variability as you mentioned would favor the use of the MCAT once again.

Of course Brown can do what they want, and they do. Again, your reasoning doesn't make complete sense. A student could technically fail orgo at least twice if he were taking 4 classes initially at Brown. Again, since this would still be considered full time, it would be noticeable to adcoms. It's unclear to me how Brown has a 95% acceptance rate into med school if the grades the school provides are meaningless. I suppose the med schools only rely on the student's MCAT scores. However, if this is true, then that means most applicants from Brown must have really high MCAT scores of 35+ since their transcripts don't mean anything.

 

[tncekm]

Actually they can, as I pointed out, if they failed a class, they would have one less class taken during their semester.

No, that would basically mean they officially put the ass in assumption. I've had a semester where I had way too much going on to keep one of my normal loads. By the statement you made, if I were a brown student I would have recieved an F because I didn't keep my normal load of units during that semester.

Given a lesser workload, the effect would be similar to students who received A's by taken 2-3 classes rather than the usual 4-6.

I agree this should be taken into consideration, but you've got a legitimate point here. if there is a continuous trend of low unit semesters that's one thing. but to assume a person at brown would have failed because they too, for example, 9 units instead of 12 is dangerously presumptious.

Seriously though, if a person dropped 1 class (via failing) every now and then, yet maintaining a full-time courseload, who really cares? We've all waited till the last minute to drop a class before, and really as someone suggested above, if you are already doomed to fail, why would you still be registered for the class after the first or second midterm anyway?

Sometimes people start off strong and finish horribly. Who knows what everybody's reasoning is? But, that's irrelevant. We're taking part in a huge filtration campaign. There are tons of people who would love to be doctors, yet, only so many people can be doctors. If we are looking for the best of the best, knowing a person's entire academic record is extremely important. You can have a brilliant person who would make for a horrible medical student because they've got no drive or you can have someone, maybe a bit duller than average, who would make an incredible doctor because they have it in them to do what it takes to make it to that point and to be the best. Usually, that all can be identified in a persons record.

Depends, I personally don't think Brown grades in an unfair and/or dishonest fashion.

Fair can be debated, dishonest can be proven. Hiding someones academic failures is, plain and simple, dishonest. If you broke your moms favorite piece of china and hid it from her, is that an honest thing to do? NO!

Its their school, and it is their prerogative to grade in the manner which best suits them, since not everyone at Brown intends to go to med school.

Sure...as long as everyone feels "equal" that's all that matters, right? Its unfair to medical students from other schools who have to try harder to get the same GPA.

This would be similar to the situation with graduate GPA vs. undergraduate GPA. Graduate level courses can be many times harder than undergrad courses, or sometimes easier. The grading scale is skewed due to higher standards, and more motivated students. Often times a B-/C+ (79%) is considered failing in grad level courses, and thus our students perform far better in both the grad and med level courses. Adcoms have a harder time comparing graduate GPA vs. conventional undergrad GPA due to these reasons, and thus as stated by many med schools including my own, MCAT will play an "equalizing" role.

I've already explained, equalizing is impossible. All it can do is shift momentum. One dishonest move (or if you prefer, a piece of neglected information) and a person is permanently advantaged. Please don't make me start using simple math to prove this point. Its painfully obvious.

You can search various SDN threads where PhD students who are going pre-med are advised to score in the 34+. Again, QofQuimica can probably chime in. She didn't even have grades as an undergrad, but her graduate GPA combined with an insane MCAT score got her into med school.

That's great for her, but, if you know anything about statistics a population size of "one" should never be considered representative (again, for obvious reasons).

 

[tncekm]

Of course Brown can do what they want, and they do. Again, your reasoning doesn't make complete sense. A student could technically fail orgo at least twice if he were taking 4 classes initially at Brown. Again, since this would still be considered full time, it would be noticeable to adcoms. It's unclear to me how Brown has a 95% acceptance rate into med school if the grades the school provides are meaningless. I suppose the med schools only rely on the student's MCAT scores. However, if this is true, then that means most applicants from Brown must have really high MCAT scores of 35+ since their transcripts don't mean anything.

Not necessarily. Unfortunatley in addition to skewed GPAs we're still competing with the imaginary monster we know as "under-representation". This combination can easily make the acceptance rate ridiculously high.

Luckily, being the most intelligent person isn't the most important factor when it comes to being a doctor. So, in the end, I'm sure every person who may have come into medical school in a fashion I would personally view as "unfair" will have a great chance of being a wonderful doctor. My complaint is that we're supposed to be selected based off of our academic performance, mcat scores, and recs. So, when academic performance is altered and when uncontrollable factors such as ethnic/racial/cultural background are introduced into the playing field I get pissy.

For example. If people from Planet X had 90% of the total Planet X population yet a 0% acceptance rate I wouldn't give a crap as long as the acceptance was based off of merit.

 

[appleluver7]

No, that would basically mean they officially put the ass in assumption. I've had a semester where I had way too much going on to keep one of my normal loads. By the statement you made, if I were a brown student I would have recieved an F because I didn't keep my normal load of units during that semester.

I agree this should be taken into consideration, but you've got a legitimate point here. if there is a continuous trend of low unit semesters that's one thing. but to assume a person at brown would have failed because they too, for example, 9 units instead of 12 is dangerously presumptious.

Sometimes people start off strong and finish horribly. Who knows what everybody's reasoning is? But, that's irrelevant. We're taking part in a huge filtration campaign. There are tons of people who would love to be doctors, yet, only so many people can be doctors. If we are looking for the best of the best, knowing a person's entire academic record is extremely important. You can have a brilliant person who would make for a horrible medical student because they've got no drive or you can have someone, maybe a bit duller than average, who would make an incredible doctor because they have it in them to do what it takes to make it to that point and to be the best. Usually, that all can be identified in a persons record.
Fair can be debated, dishonest can be proven. Hiding someones academic failures is, plain and simple, dishonest. If you broke your moms favorite piece of china and hid it from her, is that an honest thing to do? NO!

Sure...as long as everyone feels "equal" that's all that matters, right? Its unfair to medical students from other schools who have to try harder to get the same GPA.

I've already explained, equalizing is impossible. All it can do is shift momentum. One dishonest move (or if you prefer, a piece of neglected information) and a person is permanently advantaged. Please don't make me start using simple math to prove this point. Its painfully obvious.

That's great for her, but, if you know anything about statistics a population size of "one" should never be considered representative (again, for obvious reasons).

Wow, I had no idea this thread would attract so many adamant responses. It's clear that there is both a lot of anxiety on this board and a lot of anger. From reading the posts, it's clear a lot of people on here are "jealous" of Brown because of its policy, which by the way, has nothing to do with med school in the first place. It just happens that it affects applicants to med school. The hatred for Brown is unwarranted. Brown's policy existed long before most students were applying to med school in this manner. I also think it's really interesting that people are trying to suggest that by going to Brown, your chances for med school will somehow be limited. In fact, med schools love Brown just as much or more than any other undergrad institution. There are 3,000 colleges in the US and Brown is among the top 5 universities and Ivys with placement into med school with 95% of those Brown students applying to med school gaining admission. Most of these placements are to the most elite med schools to boot, including Yale, Harvard, Stanford, and others. Stop worrying about Brown students and worry more about your own prospects. This was more food for thought...I think students are also failing to realize that a lot of this has to do with the students these schools admit in the first place...people talk about grade inflation at Harvard, which clearly exists, but it exists at all colleges. We single out Harvard because of our jealousy that these people might get one more privilege. To get into Harvard is an enormous task and so while some students might get the "benefit" of grade inflation, students at a lot of other lower tier universities are getting that benefit too and we never have discussions about grade inflations at those schools. It's clear there is a lot of envy here.

 

[appleluver7]

Not necessarily. Unfortunatley in addition to skewed GPAs we're still competing with the imaginary monster we know as "under-representation". This combination can easily make the acceptance rate ridiculously high.

Luckily, being the most intelligent person isn't the most important factor when it comes to being a doctor. So, in the end, I'm sure every person who may have come into medical school in a fashion I would personally view as "unfair" will have a great chance of being a wonderful doctor. My complaint is that we're supposed to be selected based off of our academic performance, mcat scores, and recs. So, when academic performance is altered and when uncontrollable factors such as ethnic/racial/cultural background are introduced into the playing field I get pissy.

For example. If people from Planet X had 90% of the total Planet X population yet a 0% acceptance rate I wouldn't give a crap as long as the acceptance was based off of merit.

I don't understand what you mean by "underrepresentation" and "this can make the acceptance rate ridicululously high"? Brown actually has a huge number of premeds. If you check AMCAS or whatever, you'll find out they are in the top 20-30 schools nationally with students applying to med school. Most of these applicants are white. Among these "white" applicants, 95% are admitted to med school...

 

[defrunner]

Apple luver, I wasn't talking about Brown myself; I was talking about the system in general. I don't hate Brown at all and it is a terrific institution, but it is a dangerous precedent to set, in my humble opinion. Like you so ardently say, Brown is full of intelligent and self-motivated kids so this system can work there (and other similar institutions like Harvard, Yale, etc), but it may not work at other institutions that try to implement this.

I've never dropped a class (sometimes to my detriment), but if my undergrad institution had a policy like that, it would be awfully hard for me not to consider taking a class like Orgo in addition to my normal courseload just to see what it was like and to get the materials/tests/etc (kind of like auditing a class; I wouldn't care about it gradewise cuz I know I could easily fail it with no repercussions).

Brown's students should not, and are not, punished for this and I say, good for them. However, this comes with the caveat that they most likely would already get into med school anyway, regardless of the policy. Yes, Brown does have those types of students; shocking as it may be. That means that all the statistics posted in favor of Brown really doesn't mean much to me, other than the fact that Brown is a great college (which has been reiterated over and over by me).

Also, people are making erroneous assumptions in saying that 3 classes or something would be noticed by ad-coms as a sign of failing classes. I seriously doubt that they would care if someone took 3 classes in a semester, but it may become questionable if this is a continuous pattern, leading someone to graduate in like 6 years or something. As long as a student has done well in class and graduates within a normal and reasonable time frame, I doubt that this is much of an issue (at least from my perspective; I don't know how deeply ad-coms really delve into this).

My point is, this is really a non-issue. What works at one place may not necessarily translate successfully into another place. I don't disagree with Brown in particular, just the general idea. Grading is already subjective enough. A's for effort and no penalties for failing classes are just ludicrous to me and it shelters students that are already sheltered enough even more from the real world.

What if this was applied to the justice system? "Oh, you robbed that liquor store and shot the clerk? Well, I can see that you tried not to but circumstances forced the issue. That's ok then; feel free to go. On your way out, please accept some money from us so that you can buy some narcotics for your own personal satisfaction. In the future, if you do something like this again, don't worry about it. All I care about is that you tried not to do it so that in the end, you will be a more well-rounded citizen since you didn't have to worry about little things like suffering the consequences of the law. Godspeed!"

 

[defrunner]

Anyone else find it amusing that Law2Doc is not on this thread at all?

Yes, the irony is not lost on me either

 

[trustwomen]

The hatred for Brown is unwarranted. Brown's policy existed long before most students were applying to med school in this manner. I also think it's really interesting that people are trying to suggest that by going to Brown, your chances for med school will somehow be limited. In fact, med schools love Brown just as much or more than any other undergrad institution. There are 3,000 colleges in the US and Brown is among the top 5 universities and Ivys with placement into med school with 95% of those Brown students applying to med school gaining admission. Most of these placements are to the most elite med schools to boot, including Yale, Harvard, Stanford, and others. Stop worrying about Brown students and worry more about your own prospects. This was more food for thought...I think students are also failing to realize that a lot of this has to do with the students these schools admit in the first place...people talk about grade inflation at Harvard, which clearly exists, but it exists at all colleges. We single out Harvard because of our jealousy that these people might get one more privilege. To get into Harvard is an enormous task and so while some students might get the "benefit" of grade inflation, students at a lot of other lower tier universities are getting that benefit too and we never have discussions about grade inflations at those schools. It's clear there is a lot of envy here.

Huh. There is a stereotype up here in Canada, that American schools are "easy" on their students, and the most expensive schools even more so. Sounds like there is some truth to it... My SO went to university in NYC and he was allowed to retake classes and have the "retook" grade replace the old one on his transcript (AACOMAS-style), and I thought THAT was overly generous. But this just takes the cake!

Not putting failing grades on a transcript is unheard of here, and if you drop a course any later than two weeks after classes start, you get an irreversible W (or DR) on your transcript. And you cannot drop a class, even with a W, any later than midway through the session (sometimes, maddeningly, this winds up being before the midterm). Being allowed to drop a class anytime before the final and having it go "poof" would not only allow failing students to mask their failure, it would allow C and B students to "try again" for their A, unhindered. Now, yes, all schools have some grade inflation (we call it a "curve"), but it's not systemic like this example. Weeder courses don't even curve - nearly half my class outright failed OrgChem 2.

Why do med schools even look at GPA from these kinds of American schools? No wonder the MCAT is so much more important there. Some Canadian schools just use GPA, because it's more standardized (and "honest") up here.

Unbelievable. But thanks for the fuel for what will certainly be some interesting discussions with my classmates this fall.

 

[notdeadyet]

Can the ability to fail a class and not have it show on your transcript be an advantage? Yes. Can good pre-med counselling? Yes. Can small classes in which your professor gets to know you well enough to write a strong LOR? Yes. Damn private school kids have an advantage!

Can going to a school with huge classes and therefore an emphasis on basic multiple choice testing an advantage? Yes. Can attending schools that have state mandate to accept a certain number of state students and therefore have lower standards or competition than elite schools? Yes. Damn public school kids have an advantage!

Can MCAT prep classes be an advantage? Yes. Can having lot sof family friends as doctors to hook you up with LORs and good internships? Yes. Can not having to work through college to focus on your studies? Yes. Damn rich kids have an advantage!

Can special scholarships for those of disadvantaged backgrounds be an advantage? Yes. Can coming from a struggling background give you great fodder for your personal statement? Yes. Damn poor kids have an advantage!

Some people will have it better than you and you will have it better than some other people. This is not med school, this is life. Any arguments about what is more Fair in the Big Scheme of Things is just nonsensical.

 

[defrunner]

Which is my point exactly, as I've previously posted about.

Just because it 'might' work at Brown doesn't mean it is a good idea. Also, I'd like to think that Brown's students are smart enough and the quality of the education receieved there is high enough that this type of policy is unnecessary. It's a dangerous precedent to set.

 

[trustwomen]

Some people will have it better than you and you will have it better than some other people. This is not med school, this is life. Any arguments about what is more Fair in the Big Scheme of Things is just nonsensical.

I understand your point, but let's face it - the rich kids' advantages, in reality, far outweigh the poor kids' advantages.

Massive Ivy inflation is therefore no surprise. And don't say "oh, but they do the weeding out at admissions" - that may be true for some, but not for legacies who get in regardless. My grandfather, for example, "ensured" that my hippie druggie aunt graduated, forty years ago. Money and influence talks.

 

[chewsnuffles]

Can the ability to fail a class and not have it show on your transcript be an advantage? Yes. Can good pre-med counselling? Yes. Can small classes in which your professor gets to know you well enough to write a strong LOR? Yes. Damn private school kids have an advantage!

Can going to a school with huge classes and therefore an emphasis on basic multiple choice testing an advantage? Yes. Can attending schools that have state mandate to accept a certain number of state students and therefore have lower standards or competition than elite schools? Yes. Damn public school kids have an advantage!

Can MCAT prep classes be an advantage? Yes. Can having lot sof family friends as doctors to hook you up with LORs and good internships? Yes. Can not having to work through college to focus on your studies? Yes. Damn rich kids have an advantage!

Can special scholarships for those of disadvantaged backgrounds be an advantage? Yes. Can coming from a struggling background give you great fodder for your personal statement? Yes. Damn poor kids have an advantage!

Some people will have it better than you and you will have it better than some other people. This is not med school, this is life. Any arguments about what is more Fair in the Big Scheme of Things is just nonsensical.

Perfectly said.

 

[ND2005]

Can the ability to fail a class and not have it show on your transcript be an advantage? Yes. Can good pre-med counselling? Yes. Can small classes in which your professor gets to know you well enough to write a strong LOR? Yes. Damn private school kids have an advantage!

Can going to a school with huge classes and therefore an emphasis on basic multiple choice testing an advantage? Yes. Can attending schools that have state mandate to accept a certain number of state students and therefore have lower standards or competition than elite schools? Yes. Damn public school kids have an advantage!

Can MCAT prep classes be an advantage? Yes. Can having lot sof family friends as doctors to hook you up with LORs and good internships? Yes. Can not having to work through college to focus on your studies? Yes. Damn rich kids have an advantage!

Can special scholarships for those of disadvantaged backgrounds be an advantage? Yes. Can coming from a struggling background give you great fodder for your personal statement? Yes. Damn poor kids have an advantage!

Some people will have it better than you and you will have it better than some other people. This is not med school, this is life. Any arguments about what is more Fair in the Big Scheme of Things is just nonsensical.

This is the first time I've ever wanted to save someone's post.

 

[riceman04]

Apple luver, I wasn't talking about Brown myself; I was talking about the system in general. I don't hate Brown at all and it is a terrific institution, but it is a dangerous precedent to set, in my humble opinion. Like you so ardently say, Brown is full of intelligent and self-motivated kids so this system can work there (and other similar institutions like Harvard, Yale, etc), but it may not work at other institutions that try to implement this.

I've never dropped a class (sometimes to my detriment), but if my undergrad institution had a policy like that, it would be awfully hard for me not to consider taking a class like Orgo in addition to my normal courseload just to see what it was like and to get the materials/tests/etc (kind of like auditing a class; I wouldn't care about it gradewise cuz I know I could easily fail it with no repercussions).

Brown's students should not, and are not, punished for this and I say, good for them. However, this comes with the caveat that they most likely would already get into med school anyway, regardless of the policy. Yes, Brown does have those types of students; shocking as it may be. That means that all the statistics posted in favor of Brown really doesn't mean much to me, other than the fact that Brown is a great college (which has been reiterated over and over by me).

Also, people are making erroneous assumptions in saying that 3 classes or something would be noticed by ad-coms as a sign of failing classes. I seriously doubt that they would care if someone took 3 classes in a semester, but it may become questionable if this is a continuous pattern, leading someone to graduate in like 6 years or something. As long as a student has done well in class and graduates within a normal and reasonable time frame, I doubt that this is much of an issue (at least from my perspective; I don't know how deeply ad-coms really delve into this).

My point is, this is really a non-issue. What works at one place may not necessarily translate successfully into another place. I don't disagree with Brown in particular, just the general idea. Grading is already subjective enough. A's for effort and no penalties for failing classes are just ludicrous to me and it shelters students that are already sheltered enough even more from the real world.

What if this was applied to the justice system? "Oh, you robbed that liquor store and shot the clerk? Well, I can see that you tried not to but circumstances forced the issue. That's ok then; feel free to go. On your way out, please accept some money from us so that you can buy some narcotics for your own personal satisfaction. In the future, if you do something like this again, don't worry about it. All I care about is that you tried not to do it so that in the end, you will be a more well-rounded citizen since you didn't have to worry about little things like suffering the consequences of the law. Godspeed!"

my point also

 

[trustwomen]

Some people will have it better than you and you will have it better than some other people. This is not med school, this is life. Any arguments about what is more Fair in the Big Scheme of Things is just nonsensical.

Does this mean that "Justice" is a ridiculous concept that is not worth striving for?

Just because life isn't fair (and will almost certainly never become fair) doesn't mean that we can't try to make it a little more fair when we're able to, or be willing to point out its injustices, does it? You seem to be saying that we can't even judge what is fair and what isn't; I think that's a bit naive.

 

[defrunner]

Some people will have it better than you and you will have it better than some other people. This is not med school, this is life. Any arguments about what is more Fair in the Big Scheme of Things is just nonsensical.

That made no sense. It's the equivalent of responding to an argument by saying, "You're being defensive; what are your parameters?" What you said confuses the issue. Obviously some people have it better in some ways than other people and vice versa. But please do not tell any of us that you would rather be poor and go to a less reputable state school than be rich and go to a prestigious private institution all in the name of having multiple choice tests and fodder for your personal statement. Comparing different situations and saying that sort of thing is ludicrous.

Focus on the argument itself and try to repudiate it. Normally I wouldn't even dignify that sort of post with a response but since you muddied the waters by posting that, I feel the need to clear the air and boil it down to the issue of whether this type of policy serves as a consequence-free easy way out for students at inarguably one of the finest higher education institutions nationally and even worldwide. There is no question that it does and arguing otherwise is quite frankly, stupid. The whole point of my postings are that not only is this unnecessary at Brown, but also that it serves as a dangerous precedent, since many institutions look to the Ivies and copy the way they do things in terms of curriculum and academics in an effort to 'better' themselves. Thus, at institutions where the students are not quite as intelligent or self-motivated, this type of policy will be a massive failure.

Furthermore, I do not argue about what is more "fair" in the grand scheme of things because it goes without question that people will have it easier than others, due to luck, circumstance, hard work, whatever you call it. I am arguing that students, especially at the more prestigious institutions, are already sheltered enough and that this type of policy only serves to decrease their preparation for the real world while being very condescending at the same time.

I don't know why people are making arguments for this, to be honest. I am not attacking Brown or their students at all (as I repeatedly say); I am just attacking the policy.

 

[riceman04]

Some people will have it better than you and you will have it better than some other people. This is not med school, this is life. Any arguments about what is more Fair in the Big Scheme of Things is just nonsensical.

So then that means that you dont have a prob w/ aa either, right (had to bring it up)?

 

[trustwomen]

So then that means that you dont have a prob w/ aa either, right (had to bring it up)?

C'mon, you know that whatever privilege you get is either fair or "not worth even thinking about because of the sheer quantity of injustice in the world", but whatever privilege somebody else gets is just WRONG and must be abolished. (Especially if that privilege is granted by society, in lieu of the rich parents they don't have - man, that's a privilege that's got to go.)