Interesting review of Sicko

[raidermedic]

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Based on the movie, you would not expect doctors to do much worse than in La France. After all, it was a middle class family the ones that were interviewed and were doing quite well. The Canadian doc looked happy. Perhaps the only place docs would not be doing as well would be Cuba, but that is another story all in itself with its reasons inherent to the economy of the island and a whole gamut of other politico-economic factors.

Most primary care docs would probably make the same perhaps even more. But people like Cardio would not be pulling in 500K.

 

[hilseb]

In my experience these inner city clinics whose design was to offer preventive care to the poor population often turn into places where people come to get disability and workmans compensation forms filled out.

I spent some time working in a clinic seeing dozens of patients per day.

Pregnancy tests, free prescription samples, disability paperwork and noncompliant patients were all I encountered. 8 weeks and I can only think of one person who I truly helped.

Worth it to that one patient? Definately.

Worth it to the taxpayers? Not a chance.

Forgive me for sounding callous and uncaring, but I think healthcare is a privelage not a right.

Why should you be able to take out of the system (office visits, surgery, meds, etc) if you dont put in to the system?

Universal healthcare would work just fine if the system held everyone accountable, but it doesnt.

The other day I saw a young woman who was on disability and couldnt afford to go see her doctor for a moderate reaction to poison ivy. She says she couldnt afford the prescription steroids or the topical cream. She says she is on disability and cant work...she needs to stay home with her 3 kids, all of which get free healthcare from one of the many state sponsored programs.

But she had the money to get breast implants.

Peculiar, isnt it?

Again, if you dont put into the system you shouldnt take out of the system. There are few exceptions.

Healthcare is a privelage, not a right.

Those who put the most in should get the most out.

Any public health research shows that this is not a typical case - people on disability and medicaid are not lining up for breast implants.

Health care is not a privilege, and if you are worried about people "getting out what they didn't put in" then more preventative care is the answer. That way we wouldn't be spending so much down the road on their chronic conditions out of the same taxpayer money.

I don't think rich society wives who do nothing for society deserve elective plastic surgery any more than poor women on disability, but that is really irrelevant to the health care crisis this country is in.

 

[hilseb]

I put children in the category of "mentally disabled" as thats how most kids act.

The younger members of our society will never have trouble getting healthcare or federal and state money.

Why do you think its so popular to have a baby at 16 years old?

Cash money.

What an offensive post.

Yeah, teen moms are getting pregnant because it's so lucrative.

Kids can always get the care they need, like these infants dying:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11158569

 

[medhacker]

Go and move there. I would see you back here in a few years. The basics are covered well there, but if you need any sort of specialty care it can take years before you can get the treatment necessary.

In the movie they had the guy who had his fingers reinserted and the happy doc who did them - that seemed pretty specialty medicine to me.

There are many Canadian doctors who come to the US and practice, but that side of the story wasn't shown. How many patients come to the US to get the best health care in the world, another part of the story that wasn't shown.

I think the part of best health care is more complex than what it may seem at first sight. You hear similar stuff depending on the country you are at.

Also do you think it is fair for a Canadian specialist who had more years of education to only make $10,000 more than someone in IM? I certainly don't.

If it will help ensure the kind of things we see happening in the movie don't happen anymore I think it would be ok with me.

 

[medhacker]

Most primary care docs would probably make the same perhaps even more. But people like Cardio would not be pulling in 500K.

Agreed

 

[Dr JPH]

I don't think rich society wives who do nothing for society deserve elective plastic surgery any more than poor women on disability

I disagree.

What an offensive post.

Yeah, teen moms are getting pregnant because it's so lucrative.

Then why else are they getting pregnant?

The checks on the first of the month are bigger if you have babies.

Kids can always get the care they need, like these infants dying:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11158569

Look at the two women featured in that article. Theyre HUGE. It even stated that they have problems with high blood pressure and thyroid issues.

The article also points out that the 3 leading causes of infant death, nearly 45% of all infant deaths, are caused by maternal smoking, drug and alcohol use.

Youre overweight, have high blood pressure, diabetes, thyroid disease, you smoke, drink alcohol, and occasionally smoke pot...and your baby is underweight or stillborn.

Hello??

Stop smoking and you have $1,500/year in your pocket
Stop drinking and smoking pot and that goes up more.

Now you have $2,000/year

A-HA! Thats the exact dollar amount the article quoted it costs to provide ongoing healthcare to a pregnant woman for a YEAR.

Problem solved.

I would have highlighted more from the article but I get nauseous spending that much time reading liberal gibberish.

 

[Doctor Peloncito]

During my ER rotation in February, I had two interesting medicaid cases that relate to this discussion. The first one was a woman who was too disinterested in looking up from her novel to talk to me directly. I had seen that her daughter's PCP was one of my professors and I tried to make small talk about it. She got angry at me and said, "oh I've never met the man. We always come here." I asked her what brought them in and she scoffed and said, "I already told two nurses, can't you read. She has a cold we need medicine." I was so pissed I politely excused myself and handed the chart to the attending. I told the attending to turf them. After examining the girl, she did. Sans medicine.

The other case was another one where the kid had a cold and needed a script for OTC cough syrup. The family was very nice and gracious, but the thing that got me was the fact that the kid had a $600 video ipod and her older sister had a portable DVD player. C'mon, if you are going to suck the government's resources, at least be conscious enough to leave the proof of your fraud at home! GRRRRR!

 

[GreenShirt]

Bottomline: Everybody wants health care, but nobody wants to pay for it.

Although, now that I'm quiting my job to start med school and have to pay for private insurance, I can see what a pain in the butt it is not to be covered by an employer. Not to mention all the things that don't get covered when you switch carriers if you loose your job or start a new one b/c they're "pre-exitsting" conditions.

 

[Dr JPH]

Bottomline: Everybody wants health care, but nobody wants to pay for it.

👍

Again, healthcare is a privelage, not a right.

Do you have a right to emergency care in an EMERGENCY? Yes.

Do you have a right to waste the ERs time with your cough and cold because you know its a free doctor visit? No.

Do you have a right to breast implants if you cant afford them? No.

Do you have a right to dictate your own care by demanding specialists and unecessary tests? No.

Do you have a right to demand brand name medication if you arent going to pay the difference? No.

Do you have a right to complain about waiting 8 hours in an ER waiting room when there are legitimately sick patients ahead of you? No.

Do you have a right to waste government resources that I pay for? No.

 

[sexyman]

Look at the two women featured in that article. Theyre HUGE. It even stated that they have problems with high blood pressure and thyroid issues.

The article also points out that the 3 leading causes of infant death, nearly 45% of all infant deaths, are caused by maternal smoking, drug and alcohol use.

To add onto what JP is already saying, I recently read about a medicaid program in Newark, New Jersey (ah so nice down there lol) where the government was supplying women with children formula and other protein drinks for their kids.

It turned out that more than half of them were selling their childrens food for drugs. Now we are supposed to feel sorry for them because their babies are dieing? Give me a break.

This type of aid has to end

 

[Kappy1]

In the movie they had the guy who had his fingers reinserted and the happy doc who did them - that seemed pretty specialty medicine to me.



I think the part of best health care is more complex than what it may seem at first sight. You hear similar stuff depending on the country you are at.




If it will help ensure the kind of things we see happening in the movie don't happen anymore I think it would be ok with me.

In the article brought down in the beginning of the thread as well as others show that many people have died waiting for certain tests in a socialized health care system. There are many of these patients coming over here to have surgery done because it would take years before they could have surgery done in their own system. If we did not give patients in the US top notch care we would not have foreign patients coming here for treatment.

I think if people make more money they are motivated to do their job better. Why do you think communism doesn't work. It doesn't work because you make the same money anyway so why should I bother working hard. If you become a specialist and put in the years of studying necessary you should be paid accordingly.

The system in London doesn't insure anything. Just because your patients are showing improvement doesn't have to do with the doctor it has to do with patient. In that system two doctors will give the same course of treatment and one will make more than the other. If the patient follows the treatment and is cured that doctor gets a bonus. But if your patient doesn't follow his treatment properly the second doctor won't make the money. Why should that be? Both did what they were supposed to do in terms of health care and should get paid equally for it. Also there are times when people who have the same symptoms follow the same course of treatment and for one it works and for the other it just doesn't work. Many times there is no medical reason why because we are still learning about how the body works. Reward the physician who had his treatment work. I don't see why?

 

[medhacker]

In the article brought down in the beginning of the thread as well as others show that many people have died waiting for certain tests in a socialized health care system. There are many of these patients coming over here to have surgery done because it would take years before they could have surgery done in their own system. If we did not give patients in the US top notch care we would not have foreign patients coming here for treatment.

I haven't read the article, although, I think, someone discredited the article somewhere back in the thread. Furthermore, no one is debating our top-notch healthcare.

I think if people make more money they are motivated to do their job better. Why do you think communism doesn't work. It doesn't work because you make the same money anyway so why should I bother working hard. If you become a specialist and put in the years of studying necessary you should be paid accordingly.

I don't agree true communism is what we often refer to as communism (contrary to what the the members of the primitive christian church had) , nonetheless, money can be a motivator but not the only one nor the best one in my opinion.

The system in London doesn't insure anything. Just because your patients are showing improvement doesn't have to do with the doctor it has to do with patient. In that system two doctors will give the same course of treatment and one will make more than the other. If the patient follows the treatment and is cured that doctor gets a bonus. But if your patient doesn't follow his treatment properly the second doctor won't make the money. Why should that be? Both did what they were supposed to do in terms of health care and should get paid equally for it.

Your argument has some wide assumptions. You are assuming both doctors would do exactly the same. I think the british system rewards the doc who goes the extramile with those typical low-compliance patients (high blood pressure, diabetes, etc) - you will be surprised how much of a difference "knowing" how to deal with these patients makes in their final treatment outcome. In that case, the british system is indeed rewarding she/he [doc] who works "more".

Also there are times when people who have the same symptoms follow the same course of treatment and for one it works and for the other it just doesn't work. Many times there is no medical reason why because we are still learning about how the body works. Reward the physician who had his treatment work. I don't see why?

See above

 

[Kappy1]

I haven't read the article, although, I think, someone discredited the article somewhere back in the thread. Furthermore, no one is debating our top-notch healthcare.



I don't agree true communism is what we often refer to as communism (contrary to what the the members of the primitive christian church had) , nonetheless, money can be a motivator but not the only one nor the best one in my opinion.



Your argument has some wide assumptions. You are assuming both doctors would do exactly the same. I think the british system rewards the doc who goes the extramile with those typical low-compliance patients (high blood pressure, diabetes, etc) - you will be surprised how much of a difference "knowing" how to deal with these patients makes in their final treatment outcome. In that case, the british system is indeed rewarding she/he [doc] who works "more".





See above

There are other articles that mention the same ideas brought down by this one.

In the movie the British system gave a bonus to doctors based on results not just going the extra mile. A doctor who goes the extra mile but the treatment doesn't work won't get the bonus.

 

[medhacker]

There are other articles that mention the same ideas brought down by this one.

In the movie the British system gave a bonus to doctors based on results not just going the extra mile. A doctor who goes the extra mile but the treatment doesn't work won't get the bonus.

And going the extra mile will more likely produce results than not. Not bad to get a bonus for results you can have a substantial influence in.

I have heard various kinds of stories regarding the issue of waiting for specialized care in the existing models of universal health care. As such, I am not sure what to think, you will find as many sources saying that some pts. die waiting, as you will saying the wait is not that bad.


Here is some "hard" data of waiting times in Canada for breast excision surgery

http://www.gnb.ca/0217/NBSCN-RSCNB/pdf/Breast_Excision_Surgery_April_2005_March_2006.pdf

Not too shabby for a socialized system.

 

[Kappy1]

And going the extra mile will more likely produce results than not. Not bad to get a bonus for results you can have a substantial influence in.

I have heard various kinds of stories regarding the issue of waiting for specialized care in the existing models of universal health care. As such, I am not sure what to think, you will find as many sources saying that some pts. die waiting, as you will saying the wait is not that bad.


Here is some "hard" data of waiting times in Canada for breast excision surgery

http://www.gnb.ca/0217/NBSCN-RSCNB/pdf/Breast_Excision_Surgery_April_2005_March_2006.pdf

Not too shabby for a socialized system.

Here are "hard numbers" for wait times for different procedures and tests in different provinces in Canada. For the province of Saskatchewan wait times for eye surgeries from October 2006- March 2007 show that 43% eye surgery has a wait time of 4-12 months. I hope no one there gets a cataract.
http://www.sasksurgery.ca/specialty/ophthalmology/ophthalmology.htm#table
click on eye surgery in red and see for yourself. In the US you could definitely get eye surgery faster.
A tonsillectomy in Alberta has the average wait time of ten weeks until surgery. I don't believe you need to wait 2 1/2 months for this surgery in the US.
http://www.ahw.gov.ab.ca/waitlist/CategorySummary.jsp?rcatID=31&levelOfCare=All
It also takes on average about 10 and half weeks to get an MRI in Alberta.
http://www.ahw.gov.ab.ca/waitlist/CategorySummary.jsp?rcatID=18&levelOfCare=All
I don't know about you but I don't want to wait that long. There are plenty of other examples.

 

[MaximusD]

Here are "hard numbers" for wait times for different procedures and tests in different provinces in Canada. For the province of Saskatchewan wait times for eye surgeries from October 2006- March 2007 show that 43% eye surgery has a wait time of 4-12 months. I hope no one there gets a cataract.
http://www.sasksurgery.ca/specialty/ophthalmology/ophthalmology.htm#table
click on eye surgery in red and see for yourself. In the US you could definitely get eye surgery faster.
A tonsillectomy in Alberta has the average wait time of ten weeks until surgery. I don't believe you need to wait 2 1/2 months for this surgery in the US.
http://www.ahw.gov.ab.ca/waitlist/CategorySummary.jsp?rcatID=31&levelOfCare=All
It also takes on average about 10 and half weeks to get an MRI in Alberta.
http://www.ahw.gov.ab.ca/waitlist/CategorySummary.jsp?rcatID=18&levelOfCare=All
I don't know about you but I don't want to wait that long. There are plenty of other examples.

I honestly think that there are probably more hospitals in Pennsylvania and New York than in all of Canada. We have far more resources and infrastructure than Canada. It stands to reason that our system could support socialized medicine far better than Canada's.

 

[Dr JPH]

I honestly think that there are probably more hospitals in Pennsylvania and New York than in all of Canada.

There are more hospitals in Philadelphia than in all of West Virginia.

I still dont think a socialized medicine infrastructure would work well in this country.

And I dont think anything like that will happen in the near future. If it does, my specialty choice will be made for me. Plastics.

 

[JonnyG]

I honestly think that there are probably more hospitals in Pennsylvania and New York than in all of Canada. We have far more resources and infrastructure than Canada. It stands to reason that our system could support socialized medicine far better than Canada's.

We also have more people

 

[eon462]

We also have more people

and unhealthier people

 

[Kappy1]

We definitely have more unhealthy people in the US. If we had socialized medicine here wait times would be crazy and doctors salaries would be less. A lose lose situation for patients and doctors alike. MaximusD you want socialized medicine go to Canada or England. When you come back to the US when things don't work out there I'll still welcome you back.

 

[Kappy1]

And going the extra mile will more likely produce results than not. Not bad to get a bonus for results you can have a substantial influence in.

I have heard various kinds of stories regarding the issue of waiting for specialized care in the existing models of universal health care. As such, I am not sure what to think, you will find as many sources saying that some pts. die waiting, as you will saying the wait is not that bad.


Here is some "hard" data of waiting times in Canada for breast excision surgery

http://www.gnb.ca/0217/NBSCN-RSCNB/pdf/Breast_Excision_Surgery_April_2005_March_2006.pdf

Not too shabby for a socialized system.

What is the wait time for a mammogram or for other diagnostic tests necessary before surgery. Add that to any wait time that currently exists. It would probably take a few months until the patient could even have the surgery in some provinces of Canada.

 

[misparas]

A quick personal story.

Last summer my wife's grandfather had a heart attack. Being Canadian, they were very grateful for their free health care. He was admitted to a hospital in a decent sized city. It was there that he waited for more than 2 weeks to get an angiogram to see what was going on. You see, the equipment he needed was in Calgary (hours away) and there was a waiting list. In those 2+ weeks my wife's grandfather had several other heart attacks and died.

My father actually had a heart attack just one month before this happened. He was in Dayton,Ohio (a similar sized city to the one in Canada) at the time. He was admitted, had his angiogram, and 2 stents were surgically placed within 5 HOURS!!! He's fine.

I would rather pay for the 2nd scenario myself!!

All of the Canadian relatives on my wife's side are looking into US insurance and are planing on crossing the boarder if anything happens. This is not as uncommon as one may think.

Socialized medicine is NOT the answer!!!!

 

[Sartre79]

Bottomline: Everybody wants health care, but nobody wants to pay for it.

Although, now that I'm quiting my job to start med school and have to pay for private insurance, I can see what a pain in the butt it is not to be covered by an employer. Not to mention all the things that don't get covered when you switch carriers if you loose your job or start a new one b/c they're "pre-exitsting" conditions.

Ditto. I'm paying about $120+ for a $1500 Deductable plan when I return to Medical School. I also currently work for one of the big Insurance companies, and our previous CEO received over 60 Bill (with a B) in Stock Options (he is being investigated currently). That kind of money is gross, and there really is no reason that someone should make that kind of money. I'm not advocating for Socialized Medicine, because frankly I don't know of a silver bullet to make the system better. But there really is something disgusting about the previous scenario.

 

[Kappy1]

As I've mentioned before, both systems (US and Socialized medicine) have their problems. From a patients perspective in the US, many people are uninsured and for socialized medicine patients have wait times that are not normal. I would like to see something like this. Just a suggestion no need to jump down my throat. I think there should be a basic level of care that every person in this country should have. Make a new tax to cover it. What that level is up for debate. Anything above that will require private insurance. Just an idea. What do you think? That would solve the problem of turning patients away who are uninsured for a basic level of care. What do you think the basic level care should include?

 

[MaximusD]

We definitely have more unhealthy people in the US. If we had socialized medicine here wait times would be crazy and doctors salaries would be less. A lose lose situation for patients and doctors alike. MaximusD you want socialized medicine go to Canada or England. When you come back to the US when things don't work out there I'll still welcome you back.

What the ****?

This is a democracy I'm allowed to have my opinions.

Why would I go to Canada or England where it hasn't worked?

Then again, why would I stay in America when our private-insurance-based system is failing? Well, I guess it's not failing if you have stock in an insurance company.

It's easy to be comfortable with the system when you aren't one of the 40 million uninsured or many others who are underinsured...

 

[The_Sensei]

It's easy to be comfortable with the system when you aren't one of the 40 million uninsured or many others who are underinsured...

Okay, Mr. Moore......okay🙄

 

[Sartre79]

What the ****?

This is a democracy I'm allowed to have my opinions.

Why would I go to Canada or England where it hasn't worked?

Then again, why would I stay in America when our private-insurance-based system is failing? Well, I guess it's not failing if you have stock in an insurance company.

It's easy to be comfortable with the system when you aren't one of the 40 million uninsured or many others who are underinsured...

It is getting scary out there for the middle class. Here's a story. My father in law spent most of his life caring for his mother b/c his father died when he was nine, so on etc. My wife's parents have worked hard their entire life and still do at 55 and 68. They are unskilled labor, but mostly because they live in rural South Dakota, etc. They pay over $500 a month in health insurance, which probably takes most of their discretionary income.

Second Story. A guy I know lost his 6 figure job and could not afford COBRA with his other expenses, etc. He didn't have Ins for about a year. Luckily, he found a new job right before he found out he had bone cancer.

The moral of the story....the uninsured include a lot of everyday people, and it is not just people who can't hold a job, so on etc.

 

[eon462]

The moral of the story....the uninsured include a lot of everyday people, and it is not just people who can't hold a job, so on etc.

True. 30% of the uninsured are young adults (who don't typically have the experience to get the best jobs). This includes nearly 40% of all recent college graduates. Also, going off welfare currently puts families at risk of losing health insurance they have through Medicaid... so the current system actually deters people from getting a job and getting off welfare.

 

[Sartre79]

True. 30% of the uninsured are young adults (who don't typically have the experience to get the best jobs). This includes nearly 40% of all recent college graduates. Also, going off welfare currently puts families at risk of losing health insurance they have through Medicaid... so the current system actually deters people from getting a job and getting off welfare.

Well, the purpose of my post was to identify that health costs have, and are increasingly putting a burden/strain on those who are not fortunate enough to have group coverage through their employer, or cannot afford the premiums of an individual policy b/c they have been rated up for health problems etc. I don't know the Ins and outs of Medicaid so I cannot comment.

 

[pguin]

True. 30% of the uninsured are young adults (who don't typically have the experience to get the best jobs). This includes nearly 40% of all recent college graduates. Also, going off welfare currently puts families at risk of losing health insurance they have through Medicaid... so the current system actually deters people from getting a job and getting off welfare.

thats true but as a young adult with a low paying entry level job, ive been paying for my own private insurance at a rate of 160 dollars a month. This definately is a hit to my pocketbook but im pretty sure that the extra taxation that ill have to pay with socialized medicine will be at least 5 percent which is pretty much what im paying now with private insurance. The only difference is that I will be unable to choose if and which insurance i want.

 

[Dr JPH]

A U.S. family with 2 kids whose income is near the mean for the country pays roughly $5,500/year in taxes.

A Canadian family with 2 kids whose income is near the mean for the country pays roughly $9,100/year in taxes.

A basic health plan costs around $4,000 annually for a family of 4.

Seems to me paying the extra cost out of pocket and having healthcare CHOICE would be the better of the two options.

Im not ready to drop the stars & stripes for the maple leaf system just yet.

 

[MaximusD]

A U.S. family with 2 kids whose income is near the mean for the country pays roughly $5,500/year in taxes.

A Canadian family with 2 kids whose income is near the mean for the country pays roughly $9,100/year in taxes.

A basic health plan costs around $4,000 annually for a family of 4.

Seems to me paying the extra cost out of pocket and having healthcare CHOICE would be the better of the two options.

Im not ready to drop the stars & stripes for the maple leaf system just yet.

A basic health plan for 4k for 4 people? That's impressive. I need to find that insurer.

That's interesting, JP... hadn't thought about it that way.

Another way to think about it is those of us who can't pay for our taxes on time would still be insured under a socialized program. If you can't pay your insurance on time, you lose coverage.

The PCOM insurance is 2k for the high deductible insurance 😛 and over 2600 for the high option. blah...

 

[white_n_nerdy]

Hey,
I saw the movie Red Dawn with Patrick Swayze. Screw socialism.

 

[pguin]

Another way to think about it is those of us who can't pay for our taxes on time would still be insured under a socialized program. If you can't pay your insurance on time, you lose coverage.

of course if you dont pay your taxes they'll be taken from you or you'll end up in jail...but you'll still get free healthcare in jail so thats a positive!

 

[Dr JPH]

A basic health plan for 4k for 4 people? That's impressive. I need to find that insurer.

Look online for quotes.

Married couple with 2 kids: I got quotes from $200.08/month ($2400.96/year) all the way to over $1,000/month. In fact, I found 12 different large company plans for under $400/month.

Sure, there might be copays and deductibles but as I said above, at least you will be able to see the doctors you need to see within a reasonable amount of time.

And chances are if the family of 4 is making near the national salary mean then they would qualify for state and federal assistance for their kids.

Another way to think about it is those of us who can't pay for our taxes on time would still be insured under a socialized program.

Yeah, you would be in jail. All the free rectal exams you want.

If the government wants to excuse me from my $300,000 student loan debt then perhaps I would give this socialized medicine BS a second thought.

Until then, I gotta get my Benjamins.

 

[eon462]

A U.S. family with 2 kids whose income is near the mean for the country pays roughly $5,500/year in taxes.

A Canadian family with 2 kids whose income is near the mean for the country pays roughly $9,100/year in taxes.

A basic health plan costs around $4,000 annually for a family of 4.

Seems to me paying the extra cost out of pocket and having healthcare CHOICE would be the better of the two options.

Im not ready to drop the stars & stripes for the maple leaf system just yet.

what happens to the people who can't afford a basic health plan?

 

[inthe415]

of course if you dont pay your taxes they'll be taken from you or you'll end up in jail...but you'll still get free healthcare in jail so thats a positive!

Jail is no joke. I just saw a guy who had an ongoing Staph infection that San Quentin refused to treat for 6 months. Lucky for him he got out of jail and is trying to get it back together.

As for socialized medicine. I'm seriously thinking about moving to Canada after my residency.

 

[Sartre79]

A U.S. family with 2 kids whose income is near the mean for the country pays roughly $5,500/year in taxes.

A Canadian family with 2 kids whose income is near the mean for the country pays roughly $9,100/year in taxes.

A basic health plan costs around $4,000 annually for a family of 4.

Seems to me paying the extra cost out of pocket and having healthcare CHOICE would be the better of the two options.

Im not ready to drop the stars & stripes for the maple leaf system just yet.

Is that 4K difference attributed solely to Healthcare, or are there a host of other reasons? Other social programs, so on etc.

 

[Sartre79]

Look online for quotes.

Married couple with 2 kids: I got quotes from $200.08/month ($2400.96/year) all the way to over $1,000/month. In fact, I found 12 different large company plans for under $400/month.

Sure, there might be copays and deductibles but as I said above, at least you will be able to see the doctors you need to see within a reasonable amount of time.

And chances are if the family of 4 is making near the national salary mean then they would qualify for state and federal assistance for their kids.



Yeah, you would be in jail. All the free rectal exams you want.

If the government wants to excuse me from my $300,000 student loan debt then perhaps I would give this socialized medicine BS a second thought.

Until then, I gotta get my Benjamins.

Those quotes are also before they are underwritten (assuming you are quoting an ind. family policy). my quote was originally $90, then shot up to $140 due to my med history, etc after it went through medical underwriting.

 

[misparas]

As for socialized medicine. I'm seriously thinking about moving to Canada after my residency.

Be sure to live close to the border in case you come down with something.

 

[Sartre79]

what happens to the people who can't afford a basic health plan?

They typically wait until their illness gets so bad that they are forced to clog up the ER and incur more cost than if they had dealt with the problem earlier. Then, when they get their medical bill that is significantly more expensive than those of us who get the contracted cost through our insurance, they file bankruptcy (the current #1 cause of bankruptcy is due to medical bills).

 

[pguin]

I dont understand how there can be such a call for socialized medicine in this country. I fully support trying to make changes to provide healthcare to more citizens even if its costs us more in taxes. However, the two programs we have right now that are closest to socialized medicine are the military and medicare/medicaid. I really dont know anyone who would possibly say that that is the type of care they would like to receive. It justs completely implausible to me that socialized medicine in America would be anything less than a complete disaster.

 

[eon462]

I dont understand how there can be such a call for socialized medicine in this country. I fully support trying to make changes to provide healthcare to more citizens even if its costs us more in taxes. However, the two programs we have right now that are closest to socialized medicine are the military and medicare/medicaid. I really dont know anyone who would possibly say that that is the type of care they would like to receive. It justs completely implausible to me that socialized medicine in America would be anything less than a complete disaster.

aren't most of the problems with these institutions due to a lack of funding? With proper funding universal health care might work.

 

[Sartre79]

I dont understand how there can be such a call for socialized medicine in this country. I fully support trying to make changes to provide healthcare to more citizens even if its costs us more in taxes. However, the two programs we have right now that are closest to socialized medicine are the military and medicare/medicaid. I really dont know anyone who would possibly say that that is the type of care they would like to receive. It justs completely implausible to me that socialized medicine in America would be anything less than a complete disaster.

Did you know that approximately 51% of Healthcare costs are already subsidized by the Gov't? I'm not nec. advocating for a system like Canada, but the market system is not delivering those things which make capitalism so great such as Efficiencies, so on etc. The question becomes whether Healthcare dollars can be treated as a commodity. Health economists start with the presumption that Healthcare is a finite resource, which I agree with, but our resources are not being used efficiently (I'm not talking about just healthcare dollars, I'm talking about Gov't dollars as an aggregate).

 

[Terpskins99]

I honestly think that there are probably more hospitals in Pennsylvania and New York than in all of Canada. We have far more resources and infrastructure than Canada. It stands to reason that our system could support socialized medicine far better than Canada's.

Just a quick FYI...

Pennsylvania (12.4 million) and New York (19.3 million) also have a larger combined population (31.7 mil) than all of Canada (31.6 million). 😱

http://quickfacts.census.gov

 

[Dr JPH]

what happens to the people who can't afford a basic health plan?

Like who?

The couple who both work minimum wage jobs (or dont work) and have 4 kids?

Here is an easy way:

1. Stop having babies.
2. Stop smoking.
3. Work your way up the fast food ladder.


Or they can just do what they do now and rely on taxpayers to take care of them.

 

[eon462]

Like who?

The couple who both work minimum wage jobs (or dont work) and have 4 kids?

Here is an easy way:

1. Stop having babies.
2. Stop smoking.
3. Work your way up the fast food ladder.


Or they can just do what they do now and rely on taxpayers to take care of them.

what about the nearly 40% of all college graduates who don't have health insurance after they graduate?

 

[Dr JPH]

what about the nearly 40% of all college graduates who don't have health insurance after they graduate?

You have the intellectual insight and financial means to attend a university of higher education but NOT the insight and financial means to get health insurance?

Do you drive and have car insurance? Probably.

Do you have an apartment and have renters insurance? Probably.

What about these people? What about getting a job with that high falootin' college education and getting some health insurance?

I dont really know where youre going with this one.

The US medical world is not falling apart because college educated 20-somethings are abusing the system. Most of them will have some form of insurance within a few months either through their employer or private means.

Its the UNeducated 20-somethings with a half dozen kids who are screwing it up.

 

[Sartre79]

You have the intellectual insight and financial means to attend a university of higher education but NOT the insight and financial means to get health insurance?

Do you drive and have car insurance? Probably.

Do you have an apartment and have renters insurance? Probably.

What about these people? What about getting a job with that high falootin' college education and getting some health insurance?

I dont really know where youre going with this one.

The US medical world is not falling apart because college educated 20-somethings are abusing the system. Most of them will have some form of insurance within a few months either through their employer or private means.

Its the UNeducated 20-somethings with a half dozen kids who are screwing it up.

Your view of the world is shockingly black and white, and somewhat cold and indifferent to some degree. Both my wife and I have Masters level education, she is working on her doctorate and I will be returning to medical school...so were aren't slouches. However, despite our education and income, money is an issue and I can understand/empathize with those who don't have the opportunities that we were fortunate enough to have received (life is hard). Things happen, and people who have a finite income have to make choices every month. Health Ins v. food may be one of those choices, and what percentage of the people you lament (the uneducated, pregnant, abusers of the system) actually account for the money spent in the system? I'd be interested in knowing your background to shed some light on where you're coming from.

 

[pguin]

Your view of the world is shockingly black and white, and somewhat cold and indifferent to some degree. Both my wife and I have Masters level education, she is working on her doctorate and I will be returning to medical school...so were aren't slouches. However, despite our education and income, money is an issue and I can understand/empathize with those who don't have the opportunities that we were fortunate enough to have received (life is hard). Things happen, and people who have a finite income have to make choices every month. Health Ins v. food may be one of those choices, and what percentage of the people you lament (the uneducated, pregnant, abusers of the system) actually account for the money spent in the system? I'd be interested in knowing your background to shed some light on where you're coming from.

I definately agree that the current health system needs some dramatic changes to incorporate healthcare to these people, especially so that ALL children have coverage (though I believe some states have this already). However, I would be much more comfortable with an increase in medicaid coverage rather than the government assuming control of healthcare for everyone.

I will also say that from my experience working in a pharmacy the a large and disproportionate number of the customers were in fact on medicaid, and pretty much every lortab/oxycontin/methadone prescription that was filled was for someone on medicaid (though they sometimes paid cash...i wonder why). However, despite the large number of abusers of the system there is not much you can do about it and these people will be present in all healthcare systems no matter what they are.