MD Internal medicine categorical applicants- Match 2020 season

[medlove758]

are you a URM?

No, not URM

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[AlteredScale]

Anyone else get WL from SLU?

 

[sharpstickie]

Anyone else get WL from SLU?

Naw just that sweet rejection

 

[TheIllusionist]

No, not URM

Do you have some inspirational story about overcoming a disability, rising out of poverty, or war refugee status? Olympics medals? People forget the top tier of IM is like undergrad admissions. They love to be able to brag about the "rags to riches" and "world class at something other than school" types. Not a bad thing at all, just something to note.

 

[medlove758]

Do you have some inspirational story about overcoming a disability, rising out of poverty, or war refugee status? Olympics medals? People forget the top tier of IM is like undergrad admissions. They love to be able to brag about the "rags to riches" and "world class at something other than school" types. Not a bad thing at all, just something to note.

I wish. It was a pretty standard PS.

 

[MerYangBey]

how many interviews to feel comfortable at this point?
And how many is your goal number to go on?

 

[AlteredScale]

how many interviews to feel comfortable at this point?
And how many is your goal number to go on?

6-9 as there's still a ton of time this month for interviews to roll in.

Would like to go to 10.

 

[MerYangBey]

6-9 as there's still a ton of time this month for interviews to roll in.

Would like to go to 10.

Okay that actually makes me feel better. I think I would like to go to 12 so I’m hoping for a few more to roll in before the end of the month.

 

[studentdocftw]

how many interviews to feel comfortable at this point?
And how many is your goal number to go on?

6, 4, 2.
6 programs I feel like an average applicant for (target), 4 programs I feel like a below average applicant for (reach) and 2 programs I feel like an above applicant for (safety). I am shooting for this breakdown, so for me 12 interviews....but we'll see.

 

[Osteoth]

If I have 4 interview invites and 1 is my home program. Should I be freaking out?

 

[AlteredScale]

If I have 4 interview invites and 1 is my home program. Should I be freaking out?

Depends, are you wanting to go to that home program? Are the other 3 places you really want to go to?

Hard not to freak out but give it 1-2 more weeks before making any next steps (LOI, applying more programs).

 

[MerYangBey]

6, 4, 2.
6 programs I feel like an average applicant for (target), 4 programs I feel like a below average applicant for (reach) and 2 programs I feel like an above applicant for (safety). I am shooting for this breakdown, so for me 12 interviews....but we'll see.

Yeah at this point I’m wishing I applied to 5-6 more target programs. I overestimated my competitiveness a bit I think. But I’m hoping it all works out.

 

[AlteredScale]

Okay that actually makes me feel better. I think I would like to go to 12 so I’m hoping for a few more to roll in before the end of the month.

I would like 12 but trying to be realistic with how many more II I''ll be getting.

 

[studentdocftw]

If I have 4 interview invites and 1 is my home program. Should I be freaking out?

What specialty? Also, how competitive do you feel for each program? If you feel like a solid applicant for each, 4 isn't bad..but isn't exactly comforting. Getting to 6 would give you a 95% chance at match, assuming you are USMD.

 

[MerYangBey]

I would like 12 but trying to be realistic with how many more II I''ll be getting.

Maybe we can all agree not to panic until next week lol. But the spreadsheet shows that a lot places only have a few dates available so it’s a bit discouraging. But still I can hope for 2 more...

 

[Osteoth]

Depends, are you wanting to go to that home program? Are the other 3 places you really want to go to?

Hard not to freak out but give it 1-2 more weeks before making any next steps (LOI, applying more programs).

Would be stoked to stay at my home institution, the other 3 programs less so.

What specialty? Also, how competitive do you feel for each program? If you feel like a solid applicant for each, 4 isn't bad..but isn't exactly comforting. Getting to 6 would give you a 95% chance at match, assuming you are USMD.

Internal medicine. I feel somewhat underqualified for my home program but over qualified for the other 3 programs. Yeah I was looking at the match data from last year and it seems like even with only 4 interviews I have about a 90% chance of matching.

 

[studentdocftw]

Would be stoked to stay at my home institution, the other 3 programs less so.



Internal medicine. I feel somewhat underqualified for my home program but over qualified for the other 3 programs. Yeah I was looking at the match data from last year and it seems like even with only 4 interviews I have about a 90% chance of matching.

Yeah, I think getting a couple more, particularly from "targets", or programs you feel adequately qualified for, would go a long way in securing a solid match for you. Still plenty of time for some invites to roll through, especially once applicants start shortening their list of interviews and cancelling.

 

[AlteredScale]

Would be stoked to stay at my home institution, the other 3 programs less so.



Internal medicine. I feel somewhat underqualified for my home program but over qualified for the other 3 programs. Yeah I was looking at the match data from last year and it seems like even with only 4 interviews I have about a 90% chance of matching.

You have a stronger chance especially if your home program really wants you. Just gotta feel it out.

The NRMP surveys regarding the match suggest creating as long of ROL as possible. Just keep going on interviews until you hit 10-12 even for programs that are really not your most sought after. Then you can stop. You never know what can happen even from your home program.

Interviews are still coming through so we just gotta hold it together for a little bit longer. It's hard not to send every single program an LOI though

 

[MNCASC]

I need some advice. I can do an away rotation next month in an IM subspecialty at a reach program that I am very interested in. They have not rejected me yet. But if they don't plan on interviewing me then I don't want to do the rotation (I already will have enough credits). My question is: should I email the PD and let him/her know that I can rotate with them next month and am wondering if I would still be under consideration for an interview at that time? I don't want to waste money and do the away if they won't consider me/reject me for an interview.

 

[AlteredScale]

I need some advice. I can do an away rotation next month in an IM subspecialty at a reach program that I am very interested in. They have not rejected me yet. But if they don't plan on interviewing me then I don't want to do the rotation (I already will have enough credits). My question is: should I email the PD and let him/her know that I can rotate with them next month and am wondering if I would still be under consideration for an interview at that time? I don't want to waste money and do the away if they won't consider me/reject me for an interview.

Do away students normally get interviews after completing Sub-I's at the program your rotating at?

Feels kinda weird sending a "interview me or I'm not rotating here" email to the PD.

 

[Osteoth]

Do most programs rank everyone they interview except those people who leave horrible impressions at the interview itself?

On average what percent of interviewees get ranked?

 

[MNCASC]

Do away students normally get interviews after completing Sub-I's at the program your rotating at?

Feels kinda weird sending a "interview me or I'm not rotating here" email to the PD.

Agreed it does seem weird for me to ask if they'd consider interviewing me. I did one other away and it was very beneficial and that program interviewed all students who do aways with them. I really want to do the rotation but if they've already sent out all interview invites then I don't want to do it. Kind of a tough spot to be in.

 

[whoknows2012]

Do most programs rank everyone they interview except those people who leave horrible impressions at the interview itself?

On average what percent of interviewees get ranked?

From my specific experience working on a recruitment committee we ranked nearly everyone (most were ranked pre-IV) and those with major red flags or disastrous IVs were removed post IV and then rank list re-arrangement began. Anyone we really really wanted we ranked in the top 50-100. Anyone we we’re happy to have fell thereafter.

Depending on the size of the program and how far down the rank list you routinely went year to year, this dictated how the bottom was ranked.

 

[IMApplicant37555]

From my specific experience working on a recruitment committee we ranked nearly everyone (most were ranked pre-IV) and those with major red flags or disastrous IVs were removed post IV and then rank list re-arrangement began. Anyone we really really wanted we ranked in the top 50-100. Anyone we we’re happy to have fell thereafter.

Depending on the size of the program and how far down the rank list you routinely went year to year, this dictated how the bottom was ranked.

oh wow, most are ranked pre-IV? What would you recommend to applicants who have lower stats, but still landed an interview, especially at competitive programs? Would a stellar interview override poor stats to get into the top 50-100?

 

[whoknows2012]

oh wow, most are ranked pre-IV? What would you recommend to applicants who have lower stats, but still landed an interview, especially at competitive programs? Would a stellar interview override poor stats to get into the top 50-100?

Make a good impression on your interview. It’s somewhat subjective but we went over each assessment the interviewer made for each applicant and that’s how we moved applicants up or down. Also if you made such a good impression then it probably made its way to the program leadership and if everybody agreed that was another way to move your way up the rank list.

If you get offered an interview you should presume that the program would be happy to have you. That means that assuming no red flags or a bad interview day you’ll be on their final rank list. The interview day is an opportunity for you both to see if you’d be happy at that program but also make a good impression to improve your standing on their rank list.

 

[ianturner0429]

I agree. I’m from a low/mid-tier school, have 230s/240s, some posters, no AOA, but strong clinical/LOR and commitment to medicine (or niche in it). Have received 3 interview invites from those so-called “top 25” programs so far. It’s a myth that top programs screen out applicants who DO NOT have 250s or AOA. I know some people who had 220s Steps in top programs. Surely, an AOA and 250s would help if you’re already a well-rounded applicant. At this point, though, my spouse and I are deciding mostly where we’ll be happy. I also know I can still receive great training at my home institution. At the end of the day, it’s me and the patient.

+2 more invites from those "top" programs! It's a myth that they only interview applicants with >250s and/or AOA from other "top" schools. Glad I didn't listen to bad advice

 

[throwaway1000000]

+2 more invites from those "top" programs! It's a myth that they only interview applicants with >250s and/or AOA from other "top" schools. Glad I didn't listen to bad advice

It is not bad advice when that's happening to us.
I go to a low-tier school with 250+ on step 1, 260+ on step 2, not AOA but mostly honors, research and good LORs.Didn't get any of those programs.
Same with my friends.
People with AOA at my school are getting few of those interviews but no where near where people with the same stats at mid-tier and above schools would be getting.
I am sure it is worse for DO students.
If you are from a low-tier school and getting those "top" programs, congrats to you because you are among the minority.

 

[medlove758]

It is not bad advice when that's happening to us.
I go to a low-tier school with 250+ on step 1, 260+ on step 2, not AOA but mostly honors, research and good LORs.Didn't get any of those programs.
Same with my friends.
People with AOA at my school are getting few of those interviews but no where near where people with the same stats at mid-tier and above schools would be getting.
I am sure it is worse for DO students.
If you are from a low-tier school and getting those "top" programs, congrats to you because you are among the minority.

We all understand and try to empathize that this application cycle isn't going well for you, but more than 3 of us have proven that your comments are unfounded. It seems you have good board scores, but there are many other more important aspects (besides school name). It may be more beneficial to spend some time identifying gaps in your own application and sending LOIs instead of sending unhelpful negative comments. Best of luck.

 

[studentdocftw]

One must factor in away rotations, LORs from known faculty, as well as exceptional ECs. At the top, it isn't as simple as AOA + 250 = invite (outside of WashU)....you really have to be well rounded, or know somebody. Also, there is significant regional bias as well...so if you happen to be near a state with top programs, it is certainly helpful.

 

[throwaway1000000]

We all understand and try to empathize that this application cycle isn't going well for you, but more than 3 of us have proven that your comments are unfounded. It seems you have good board scores, but there are many other more important aspects (besides school name). It may be more beneficial to spend some time identifying gaps in your own application and sending LOIs instead of sending unhelpful negative comments. Best of luck.

Are you guys all from low-tier MD schools without AOA?
There are no gaps on my application.
It is the same situation for others at my school with very competitive applications. I can understand if I am the only person from my school with this problem.
Low-tier schools are not equal to mid-tier schools.

 

[throwaway1000000]

One must factor in away rotations, LORs from known faculty, as well as exceptional ECs. At the top, it isn't as simple as AOA + 250 = invite (outside of WashU)....you really have to be well rounded, or know somebody. Also, there is significant regional bias as well...so if you happen to be near a state with top programs, it is certainly helpful.

I have letters from senior physicians who graduated from stanford, WashU, and Baylor. All well known in the field. Read the letters they gave, pretty good. One of them even contacted the PD to put in a word for me, but no response.
If you all are really from low-tier schools and just students from my school are not getting those interviews without having AOA, we are truly unlucky. But I don't think that's the case. Even going to a mid-tier school plays a huge role in IM match like I am finding out.

 

[studentdocftw]

I have letters from senior physicians who graduated from stanford, WashU, and Baylor. All well known in the field. Read the letters they gave, pretty good. One of them even contacted the PD to put in a word for me, but no response.
If you all are really from low-tier schools and just students from my school are not getting those interviews without having AOA, we are truly unlucky. But I don't think that's the case. Even going to a mid-tier school plays a huge role in IM match like I am finding out.

What state is your school in? Are there any top programs within your state? Do those programs typically accept your students?

 

[throwaway1000000]

What state is your school in? Are there any top programs within your state? Do those programs typically accept your students?

There are, but you need AOA. If you don't have AOA, you are pretty much out of luck.
Which was my point initially. If you are from a low-tier school and you want to break into a t-25 program, AOA is pretty much a deal breaker.
Sure, there are always exceptions but this is the case for the students in my school. AOA vs not having AOA determines the tier of your interviews.
If you are from a better tier of school than mine, then AOA plays less of a role.

 

[Osteoth]

Make a good impression on your interview. It’s somewhat subjective but we went over each assessment the interviewer made for each applicant and that’s how we moved applicants up or down. Also if you made such a good impression then it probably made its way to the program leadership and if everybody agreed that was another way to move your way up the rank list.

If you get offered an interview you should presume that the program would be happy to have you. That means that assuming no red flags or a bad interview day you’ll be on their final rank list. The interview day is an opportunity for you both to see if you’d be happy at that program but also make a good impression to improve your standing on their rank list.

What if you were invited to interview with red flags? Do these red flags not matter to the program or are will they just "kick the tires" and if you sufficiently answer what happened then rank you anyway?

 

[whoknows2012]

What if you were invited to interview with red flags? Do these red flags not matter to the program or are will they just "kick the tires" and if you sufficiently answer what happened then rank you anyway?

what I meant was more in regards to red flags during the interview ie being rude to administrative staff, being weird at a pre/post IV get together, making a poor impression during your interview etc. once you get offered an IV I can’t say for certainty that your red flags from your app will be ignored but what I can say is the program thinks highly enough of you to offer you an IV and thus the possibility of joining their program.

 

[ianturner0429]

It is not bad advice when that's happening to us.
I go to a low-tier school with 250+ on step 1, 260+ on step 2, not AOA but mostly honors, research and good LORs.Didn't get any of those programs.
Same with my friends.
People with AOA at my school are getting few of those interviews but no where near where people with the same stats at mid-tier and above schools would be getting.
I am sure it is worse for DO students.
If you are from a low-tier school and getting those "top" programs, congrats to you because you are among the minority.

We were told that, at times, your app isn’t seen by program if there is some kind of glitch in the system. Do you know if your home program received your app?

I also did NOT do an away and my LORs were from local, non-famous docs, but they could comment on how I did clinically. I had sorta well-known letter writers but I felt they wouldn’t have the time to write a strong letter, so I didn’t assign any of those letters. One of my writer is also a Fam Med doc; another is a foreigner attending.

Good luck to you! I’d recommend doing LOIs including why each of the school’s mission fits with yours.

 

[throwaway1000000]

We were told that, at times, your app isn’t seen by program if there is some kind of glitch in the system. Do you know if your home program received your app?

I also did NOT do an away and my LORs were from local, non-famous docs, but they could comment on how I did clinically. I had sorta well-known letter writers but I felt they wouldn’t have the time to write a strong letter, so I didn’t assign any of those letters. One of my writer is also a Fam Med doc; another is a foreigner attending.

Good luck to you! I’d recommend doing LOIs including why each of the school’s mission fits with yours.

Thank you.
I received decent interviews, but based on my scores, grades and good LORs I thought I would get them at better programs. After talking to my classmates, it seems most of them had a similar experience even with competitive scores if they did not have AOA like me.
Either way, it will all work out if you are willing to work hard during residency. It is disappointing but it is ok.

 

[IMApplicant37555]

One must factor in away rotations, LORs from known faculty, as well as exceptional ECs. At the top, it isn't as simple as AOA + 250 = invite (outside of WashU)....you really have to be well rounded, or know somebody. Also, there is significant regional bias as well...so if you happen to be near a state with top programs, it is certainly helpful.

why outside of WashU? Do they do more thorough screening?

 

[datpremedgirl]

Thank you.
I received decent interviews, but based on my scores, grades and good LORs I thought I would get them at better programs. After talking to my classmates, it seems most of them had a similar experience even with competitive scores if they did not have AOA like me.
Either way, it will all work out if you are willing to work hard during residency. It is disappointing but it is ok.

no offense dude, but I’ve seen your numerous amount of posts saying the same thing over and over again....enough with the AOA and school tier obsession. Those can not be the only dealbreakers. You may think you are a “stellar” applicant, but perhaps within the thousands of applications these top programs get flooded with, you may not be as special as you think you are. Maybe your letters aren’t as “exceptional” as you thought them to be? unless you have read a ton of letters, most letters will sound pretty good to the naive med student. PD’s know how to read in between the lines. There are so many things that go into selecting an applicant for an interview, so please stop pinpointing it on the fact that you do not have AOA or school tier to help you. You may not be as “perfect” of an applicant as you make yourself out to be.

Also, have you seen the applications/letters of the classmates you’re talking about that don’t have AOA? Just because they’re not getting interviews from top tier places doesn’t mean it’s because of AOA. There may be things in the app that are just not that strong.

 

[studentdocftw]

why outside of WashU? Do they do more thorough screening?

Opposite in my opinion. Vast majority of invites are pre MSPE..and largely sent to AOA with 240+ boards. Makes sense though..its harder to sell St. Louis than it is to sell SF, Boston, etc..

 

[mangobrz]

Are there certain programs that send rejections vs just never inform about application status (aka ghost)? Asking mainly about the NYC programs

 

[Welp38]

Do you have some inspirational story about overcoming a disability, rising out of poverty, or war refugee status? Olympics medals? People forget the top tier of IM is like undergrad admissions. They love to be able to brag about the "rags to riches" and "world class at something other than school" types. Not a bad thing at all, just something to note.

Do you have some inspirational story about overcoming a disability, rising out of poverty, or war refugee status? Olympics medals? People forget the top tier of IM is like undergrad admissions. They love to be able to brag about the "rags to riches" and "world class at something other than school" types. Not a bad thing at all, just something to note.

I assume you're not an URM who thinks they get passed over bc someone else "rose out of poverty". It's still harder for black applicants to get in, every step of the way. We still get told by our own program directors to be as not black as possible in every way on interviews. At the end of the day, top tier programs aren't going to pick someone with an Oprah story just cause. Reconsider giving advice about the experiences of URMs.

 

[studentdocftw]

Can any IM Program Director comment on the IM match this year? How is it going? Similar to previous matches? Significant uptick in the number of apps you received? In general, it seems like IM has gotten very competitive this year..curious if this is a real thing or not.

 

[coldcase331]

Can any IM Program Director comment on the IM match this year? How is it going? Similar to previous matches? Significant uptick in the number of apps you received? In general, it seems like IM has gotten very competitive this year..curious if this is a real thing or not.

I wonder if it has to do with the DO merger

 

[Dwan]

Can any IM Program Director comment on the IM match this year? How is it going? Similar to previous matches? Significant uptick in the number of apps you received? In general, it seems like IM has gotten very competitive this year..curious if this is a real thing or not.

Not a PD, but people say this every year, including my cycle last year. People just underestimate the competitiveness of top IM, and overestimate the value of going to a top IM.

 

[Hatfield0429]

Can any IM Program Director comment on the IM match this year? How is it going? Similar to previous matches? Significant uptick in the number of apps you received? In general, it seems like IM has gotten very competitive this year..curious if this is a real thing or not.

Did you apply last year? Just wondering why you feel it is more competitive this year.

 

[TheIllusionist]

I assume you're not an URM who thinks they get passed over bc someone else "rose out of poverty". It's still harder for black applicants to get in, every step of the way. We still get told by our own program directors to be as not black as possible in every way on interviews. At the end of the day, top tier programs aren't going to pick someone with an Oprah story just cause. Reconsider giving advice about the experiences of URMs.

Facts don't care about feelings black applicants need lower scores every step of the way that includes people from the ghetto and also children of Nigerian oil barons the system is broken yes being black as a disadvantage but a lot of that comes from socio economics racism is real but it's not as big of a confounder as people make it out to be and certainly not a reason to limit meritocracy

 

[seeinghowitgoes]

Facts don't care about feelings black applicants need lower scores every step of the way that includes people from the ghetto and also children of Nigerian oil barons the system is broken yes being black as a disadvantage but a lot of that comes from socio economics racism is real but it's not as big of a confounder as people make it out to be and certainly not a reason to limit meritocracy

Don’t get involved with how demographics should be taken into account for med school/residency selections, but the bolded goes above that. Sorry this is a bad take.

You’re in medicine so I assume you like being evidenced based, so please don’t use random hypothetical situations to inform your opinions of how impactful racism is. Time and time again rigorously conducted studies show high income minorities have health outcomes like poor white folks (so no, it’s not all SES racism is alive and playing a role in people’s lives) and having even just a black-sounding name and identical credentials leads to fewer job interviews (so yes, racism is very much real and as big a problem as people make it out to be in the job market too). Spend literally 10 minutes on google scholar and even if you limit your search to top journals you’d see it’s a pretty clear-cut story that extends far beyond the two examples I describe.

Also, really how many oil barons do you think are infiltrating the US medical system? I’d advise them against it - seems like they could have a better life doing something else with their time and millions.

Does SES also matter? Of course. Should demographic characteristics play as big a part in residency interview selections? I have no idea how they’re truly currently used (none of use non-PDs do, and even they only know how their institution uses it) so it would be ignorant to give a hardline prescription but I suspect that part of the process is quite fair. Does any of this make racism (within and outside) of medicine any less prevalent - no.

 

[TheIllusionist]

Don’t get involved with how demographics should be taken into account for med school/residency selections, but the bolded goes above that. Sorry this is a bad take.

You’re in medicine so I assume you like being evidenced based, so please don’t use random hypothetical situations to inform your opinions of how impactful racism is. Time and time again rigorously conducted studies show high income minorities have health outcomes like poor white folks (so no, it’s not all SES racism is alive and playing a role in people’s lives) and having even just a black-sounding name and identical credentials leads to fewer job interviews (so yes, racism is very much real and as big a problem as people make it out to be in the job market too). Spend literally 10 minutes on google scholar and even if you limit your search to top journals you’d see it’s a pretty clear-cut story that extends far beyond the two examples I describe.

Also, really how many oil barons do you think are infiltrating the US medical system? I’d advise them against it - seems like they could have a better life doing something else with their time and millions.

Does SES also matter? Of course. Should demographic characteristics play as big a part in residency interview selections? I have no idea how they’re truly currently used (none of use non-PDs do, and even they only know how their institution uses it) so it would be ignorant to give a hardline prescription but I suspect that part of the process is quite fair. Does any of this make racism (within and outside) of medicine any less prevalent - no.

many confounders for rich blacks vs. poor whites for health outcomes than just racism. it is unfair to extrapolate that to educational requirement. and make names blind on apps. also, asians get told enough not to "look or act too nerdy" or do ECs that are less streotypical just like Blacks are told to be "less urban." There is a reason you see children of Vietnam war refugees becoming valedictorians in Houston and Socal. Culture matters a lot. Removing meritocracy lessens to incentives to reform poor cultural practices because it takes away the onus from the individual and instead assigns it to a highly contentious boogeyman known as "system racism," one with more confounders than ants on this planet.

Discrimination and Disparities Amazon product

I recommend the book by renowned economist and public intellectual, Thomas Sowell. Oh and for all the SJWs that say you need to be part of the in group to be able to have a say, he also happens to be a black man.

Also, got my first high tier program interview (nice top 10 on Dox) and about 5 top 50 ones. Not AOA, from a low-mid tier MD school.

 

[seeinghowitgoes]

many confounders for rich blacks vs. poor whites for health outcomes than just racism. it is unfair to extrapolate that to educational requirement. and make names blind on apps. also, asians get told enough not to "look or act too nerdy" or do ECs that are less streotypical just like Blacks are told to be "less urban." There is a reason you see children of Vietnam war refugees becoming valedictorians in Houston and Socal. Culture matters a lot. Removing meritocracy lessens to incentives to reform poor cultural practices because it takes away the onus from the individual and instead assigns it to a highly contentious boogeyman known as "system racism," one with more confounders than ants on this planet.

Discrimination and Disparities Amazon product

I recommend the book by renowned economist and public intellectual, Thomas Sowell. Oh and for all the SJWs that say you need to be part of the in group to be able to have a say, he also happens to be a black man.

This is like a resident saying “well in my limited experience this treatment works best” when well run trials exist to inform the decision. On this topic, you don’t need to cherry pick anecdotes to make an argument, great population level and even experimental trial data exists. Use that instead to inform your opinion. Works in medicine and for this example.

Anyway I’ve said my two cents, I’m done derailing the thread I promise.