INTO St. George's London vs. Atlantic Bridge Ireland?

[Jloyay]

I graduated with a B.Sc. with a 3.56 GPA, I've done the MCAT twice and both times got 33 (33R first time with 13-10-10 in August 2012 and again in October 2014 with 11-9-13). Volunteering-wise I've volunteered at a street festival to raise money for epilepsy research, at a clinic at a children's hospital in my city for one year, did 2 research undergraduate projects (presented at a symposium for faculty for one of them), and went abroad to Latin America for medical volunteering at a clinic.

I tried applying to American schools 2 years ago in 2012 and I got shot down because I think I applied too late (my MCAT score came out in September) and things are really competitive because I am a Canadian and only a few American schools accept Canadians.

So, this year, I am applying to both INTO UK St. George's in London and for one Irish School via the Atlantic Bridge program.

Between these two, I was wondering if you guys can do a breakdown as to the pros and cons and which would be better in the long run? Also, do I have a shot at either of these programs with my stats and resume?

Thanks.

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[DublinDoctor]

INTO St George's looks like it is set up like one of the bad Caribbean medical schools (note: I'm not saying that all Caribbean schools are bad, my understanding is that there are about 5 pretty decent ones).

The Irish medical schools will give you a proper medical degree, that is fully accredited, and recognised all over Europe, and the rest of the world. You are unlikely to run into issues down the line when applying for licensure.

You definitely have a good shot at entry into just about every grad entry medical school in Ireland with a 33 MCAT and strong GPA. Well done. I would strongly advise Ireland over the INTO St George route. Does it have California approval? New York? My guess is probably not. But the Irish degree is recognised in all 50 states and worldwide, all of the training is in Ireland, and it's a great place to live!

 

[Mad Jack]

Ireland 1,000%

 

[Medstart108]

Leaning towards Ireland. St George's University of London is a great school, but the INTO program does leave some to be desired. You spend 2 years at SGUL and then 2 years in the US. Just checked the affiliated site is now the Joan C. Edwards School of Medicine, not the best school but at least an accredited LCME school.

In many ways it is similar to the Caribbean program even going as far as to share a similar name with SGU in Grenada. I believe that the Irish programs are better as they are accredited in the US whereas SGUL's INTO program would need to seek separate accreditation because the clinical years are spent in the US.

SGUL INTO will allow you to have more clinical experience in the US meaning hopefully better recommendations but I have my concerns about the quality of the program.

The one good aspect of the program is that you will be allowed to do your foundation years in the UK at least from the brochure. That would mean you could stay and practice in the UK. This is a major plus for the program.

Pros for SGUL INTO
2 years of US clinical experience (more US residencies will accept this)
Can practice in the UK

Cons for SGUL INTO
Concern with quality of clinical training
Will need separate accreditation for California + other states that follow California and possibly NY meaning you won't be able to get residency in those states if SGUL INTO doesn't get approval before you graduate (SGUL has approval but because the INTO program has a different curriculum it needs separate approval)
Program is new and hasn't been tested yet

The safest route would be Ireland, it doesn't need separate institution approval and its been tested, most applicants will match but the backup isn't there.

SGUL seems to have a backup in the form of foundation years in the UK, but it hasn't really been tested and there are concerns about the quality of clinical teaching you will get in the US. SGUL is a constituent college of the University of London and as such your degree is still a University of London degree. SGUL seems to be working hard at its clinical placements as when I first applied to the program its affiliated hospital was Jackson Park which is a horrible hospital in the south side of Chicago, a very dangerous place. It seems to be gone now which is a good sign and they mention that more clinical attachment sites will be negotiated in 2014 and 15 so hopefully something better comes along.

Note: The course at SGUL is a PBL course which means you will have some trouble with Step 1 prep, PBL is a really clinical oriented way of learning and it often means gaps in knowledge especially for Step 1 prep.

 

[gxb]

@Medstart108 Your points are spot on. However, what if someone chose to do all four years in the UK, which is a viable option as far as I know. In this case, the training becomes similar to the Irish schools, doesn't it?

 

[Medstart108]

@Medstart108 Your points are spot on. However, what if someone chose to do all four years in the UK, which is a viable option as far as I know. In this case, the training becomes similar to the Irish schools, doesn't it?

Yes in that case its a good option, because you can additionally stay in the UK.

 

[Mad Jack]

Yes in that case its a good option, because you can additionally stay in the UK.

With current EU regulations, that is very difficult, as foundation positions are handed out to EU citizens first. Plenty of people are trying to get into the British system from Eastern Europe, so there's very rarely any positions available for qualified applicants without EU citizenship.

 

[Medstart108]

With current EU regulations, that is very difficult, as foundation positions are handed out to EU citizens first. Plenty of people are trying to get into the British system from Eastern Europe, so there's very rarely any positions available for qualified applicants without EU citizenship.

If you do medical school in the UK you are allowed to stay in the UK, you are given top priority. All graduates of UK medical schools have 1st priority with foundation spots no matter their citizenship. All graduates of EU medical schools must be EU citizens to have 1st priority. This is the way the British system works, which is why I think SGUL does have something to offer providing they allow you to do all 4 years in the UK.

Read this carefully
http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explor.../education-and-training-routes-(tier-1-to-5)/

"To obtain a Foundation Year 1 post you
would need to apply during the final year
of your undergraduate course through the
UK Foundation Programme Office selection
scheme, which allocates these posts to
graduates on a competitive basis. To date, all
suitably qualified UK graduates have found a
place on the Foundation Year 1 programme,
but this cannot be guaranteed, for instance
if there were to be an increased number
of competitive applications from
non-UK graduates."

http://www.sgul.ac.uk/international/into/into-sgul-international-brochure-2015-16.pdf/view

This is the little paragraph on every uk medical school's website. In reality every uk medical student has been able to get a foundation spot, they will expand foundation spots if there are too many graduates.

 

[Mad Jack]

Damn, makes me wish I'd gone to a UK school. I don't particularly want to practice in the US long-term. Oh well, what's done is done.

 

[gxb]

I am currently torn between Irish schools and the INTO SGUL in the UK. As many people here have mentioned, Irish medical schools have well-established programs and are relatively well known in the U.S. whereas the SGUL program is fairly new and they've changed their clinical rotation sites three times over the past several years. I really like the idea of studying in the U.K and being able to complete rotations in the U.S. However, the future of their program seems uncertain--at least in the short run--and given the career risk and large debt, I would rather attend a more established program. What do you guys think? I know that no international program guarantees spots for its graduates but we're talking in relative terms here.

I have read many posts by current and/or former medical students in Ireland but there does not seem to be anyone from the INTO SGUL yet. I have asked the representative of the program here in the U.S about the possibility of talking with current student ambassadors or really anyone from North America who can answer my questions but her response was obscure and not very helpful. Are there any current INTO SGUL students willing to share their experience? Do you know anyone in the program who can give us an insight to it?

 

[Jloyay]

I got an interview for SGUL's London program and I will be visiting London for one week in early March for some touristing and getting a feel for the school.

Anyone applying to the program too and got an interview invite?

Right now, my preferences are:
Irish UCC>Pharmacy at University of Toronto> SGUL.

 

[gxb]

I got an interview for SGUL's London program and I will be visiting London for one week in early March for some touristing and getting a feel for the school.

Anyone applying to the program too and got an interview invite?

Right now, my preferences are:
Irish UCC>Pharmacy at University of Toronto> SGUL.

Congrats on the interview! I heard that they just added a new rotation site at SKMC. When did you submit your application and is there a reason why you list SGUL last?

 

[Medstart108]

I got an interview for SGUL's London program and I will be visiting London for one week in early March for some touristing and getting a feel for the school.

Anyone applying to the program too and got an interview invite?

Right now, my preferences are:
Irish UCC>Pharmacy at University of Toronto> SGUL.

Congrats on the interview

 

[Jloyay]

Congrats on the interview! I heard that they just added a new rotation site at SKMC. When did you submit your application and is there a reason why you list SGUL last?

It's because it's a new program and I can't see how competitive the graduates are in getting residency spots. I don't mind doing family medicine in a rural location for residency so long as I know I have a shot as a graduate.

 

[Jloyay]

Lol, I got my acceptance mail to University College Cork right when I came home from the airport after my SGUL interview in London. Looks like I have decisions to make now. There doesn't seem to be a lot of information on SGUL on the forums (this or valuemd or premed101).

 

[doctorgator]

Lol, I got my acceptance mail to University College Cork right when I came home from the airport after my SGUL interview in London. Looks like I have decisions to make now. There doesn't seem to be a lot of information on SGUL on the forums (this or valuemd or premed101).

What was your impression of SGUL? Thoughts on the facilities? staff? interview? Would you consider it over Cork?

 

[Medstart108]

INTO SGUL started in 2012 so there aren't any graduates of the program yet I believe. I think you won't find too many people who have experienced the program. Its a bit of a risk but just from the recent updates its looking better and better with an affiliation with Thomas Jefferson University added.

 

[Jloyay]

What was your impression of SGUL? Thoughts on the facilities? staff? interview? Would you consider it over Cork?

I thought it was a pretty tight-knit program with small class sizes. However it seemed a tad disorganized with a certain cohort studying in Cyprus, some in London, etc etc. The staff were nice but there were a few people during the interview that I would say were intimidating but I guess that's to be expected.

Facilities are average I'd say. The hospital is big but I notice some of the equipment seemed dated.

 

[gxb]

I thought it was a pretty tight-knit program with small class sizes. However it seemed a tad disorganized with a certain cohort studying in Cyprus, some in London, etc etc. The staff were nice but there were a few people during the interview that I would say were intimidating but I guess that's to be expected.

Facilities are average I'd say. The hospital is big but I notice some of the equipment seemed dated.

Were you able to get any information on match results and STEP 1 scores?

 

[UBC2014]

The SGUL-N( in cyprus) and SGUL proper(in london), while they share the same curriculum and such, are not the same programs. The Cyprus one licenses' out the SGUL name, and runs the program at the Nicolisa(spelling) university there. They've had a lot of issues, and one being not having enough US clinical rotations for all the students they had recruited and told they would be in Chicago for 3rd/4th year.

The SGUL proper in London seems to be fine, and has at least 2 clinical affiliations in the US.

 

[Jloyay]

OK, so from what I understand the SGUL program is not accredited in all 50 states including NY and CA BUT the clinical rotations are done in the United States. For the Irish schools, they are accredited in all 50 states but the rotations are done primarily in Ireland but you could pursue electives in North America.

Any feedback as to which would be better?

 

[doctorgator]

OK, so from what I understand the SGUL program is not accredited in all 50 states including NY and CA BUT the clinical rotations are done in the United States. For the Irish schools, they are accredited in all 50 states but the rotations are done primarily in Ireland but you could pursue electives in North America.

Any feedback as to which would be better?

Where did you gleam this information? I have looked into myself and though SGUL mentions USA accredit ion anywhere on the websites. And APB does mention it. I did read that all 50 states give the MBBS degree equivalence to the MD. Going as far as to allow an MBBS degree holder to use the MD initials after their name. Even a USA DO can't do that.

 

[Jloyay]

Where did you gleam this information? I have looked into myself and though SGUL mentions USA accredit ion anywhere on the websites. And APB does mention it. I did read that all 50 states give the MBBS degree equivalence to the MD. Going as far as to allow an MBBS degree holder to use the MD initials after their name. Even a USA DO can't do that.

http://www.valuemd.com/st-georges-u...ternational-graduate-medicine-mbbs-4-a-3.html

Shannon's post on March 26, 2015 says that the program is accredited in 35 states (with DC) and is not accredited in NY nor CA.

"At this time our program at INTO St George's is only approved in 35 states (including DC), and at this time we're not approved in CA or NY. We do have an application in with the California Medical Board for approval and are hopeful for it to be successful as St George's, UoL is already CA approved. We just have to get separate approval for the INTO St George's program as we have clinical rotations in the US and this is different than the program that's already approved. There are also 9 states which follow the California Med Board's approved list for residency and those are: Alaska, Arkansas, Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, New Mexico, Tennessee, Vermont. Additionally we're checking with the following states to make sure that we're approved there: Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, North Dakota, Oklahoma."

I will be interested to see how well the 2016 match goes for the inaugural class.

 

[doctorgator]

http://www.valuemd.com/st-georges-u...ternational-graduate-medicine-mbbs-4-a-3.html

Shannon's post on March 26, 2015 says that the program is accredited in 35 states (with DC) and is not accredited in NY nor CA.

"At this time our program at INTO St George's is only approved in 35 states (including DC), and at this time we're not approved in CA or NY. We do have an application in with the California Medical Board for approval and are hopeful for it to be successful as St George's, UoL is already CA approved. We just have to get separate approval for the INTO St George's program as we have clinical rotations in the US and this is different than the program that's already approved. There are also 9 states which follow the California Med Board's approved list for residency and those are: Alaska, Arkansas, Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, New Mexico, Tennessee, Vermont. Additionally we're checking with the following states to make sure that we're approved there: Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, North Dakota, Oklahoma."

I will be interested to see how well the 2016 match goes for the inaugural class.

Yeah I am interested in how their students match as well. It is very discouraging to learn that they are not Yet accredited in all states. Though it seems like to might just be a formality?
California being the bureaucratic mess that it is.

 

[Medstart108]

Yeah I am interested in how their students match as well. It is very discouraging to learn that they are not Yet accredited in all states. Though it seems like to might just be a formality?
California being the bureaucratic mess that it is.

Most likely, but its not 100%, the reason being that while the first 2 years are most likely approved the last 2 years are going to have to be double checked. However, I think SGUL is pulling a UQ-O and so it will be approved in the end.

The clinical rotations are I believe at 2 low tier US MD schools so that should mean they will be approved.

 

[doctorgator]

Most likely, but its not 100%, the reason being that while the first 2 years are most likely approved the last 2 years are going to have to be double checked. However, I think SGUL is pulling a UQ-O and so it will be approved in the end.

The clinical rotations are I believe at 2 low tier US MD schools so that should mean they will be approved.

What do you mean by a UQ-O? I am considering SGUL as maybe my best option at the moment. Though I am trying to learn as much as possible that being it feels like the information out there is less than the APB?
My thoughts are that doing 3rd and 4th years in the states at USA medical schools is an advantage to APB. Allowing you to make solid connections over several years to the people that may be looking at your residency applications?

 

[Medstart108]

What do you mean by a UQ-O? I am considering SGUL as maybe my best option at the moment. Though I am trying to learn as much as possible that being it feels like the information out there is less than the APB?
My thoughts are that doing 3rd and 4th years in the states at USA medical schools is an advantage to APB. Allowing you to make solid connections over several years to the people that may be looking at your residency applications?

UQ-O is a program run by University of Queensland in Australia thats really similar, its 2 years in the US at Ochsner healthcare system. In the beginning they were seeking approval by California as well and they got approval but it took a few years. Its the same with SGUL imo.

 

[doctorgator]

UQ-O is a program run by University of Queensland in Australia thats really similar, its 2 years in the US at Ochsner healthcare system. In the beginning they were seeking approval by California as well and they got approval but it took a few years. Its the same with SGUL imo.

Do you think that Into SGUL and UQ-O are the same? My reaction would be that SGUL being part of the UoLondon system is better known school system?

 

[Medstart108]

Do you think that Into SGUL and UQ-O are the same? My reaction would be that SGUL being part of the UoLondon system is better known school system?

I would personally take UQ-O over SGUL. The main reasons is that UQ-O is more established, having matched their first class already 100%. The schools that SGUL has affiliated itself with aren't horrible but they are low tiered MD schools. I think the key thing is it hasn't been tested. That doesn't mean I wouldn't take a SGUL offer it just means if I had the option of both I would take UQ-O for now.


Addressing the issue of name recognition (which let me preface this is not very important at all but may be slightly important for the US):
The other reason is that while both schools aren't really well known internationally UQ is ranked higher.

The University of London isn't a real uni in the traditional sense (its as much of a uni as the University of California is) and the universities in that system are highly variable, you have the flagships like UCL and LSE and then you have schools like Birkbeck that benefit a lot from the UoL name. In UK medical school circles SGUL isn't seen in that good of a light. Obviously, in reality this doesn't mean a thing but SGUL generally tends to the bottom when it comes to MRCP pass rates, UK rankings etc.

https://reports.gmc-uk.org/views/Ex...DashMedSchool?:tabs=no&:toolbar=no&:embed=y#1

Both schools use PBL which means that you'll need to do a lot of individual study to prep for the USMLE Step 1.