Is 450K or 500K worth it?

[hard08]

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Hi,

I got accepted to MSUCOM and the tuition is about 60K a year (for Canadians which I am).
Living expenses are around 20K.
80K per year X4 = 320K

with the ****ty CAD, it comes to a total of about 450K which I should probably overestimate to 500K to be honest (with interest and other costs I'm not considering).

I am Canadian so with residencies, I would be at a disadvantage and FM is most likely where I will end up.

Is 450K or 500K really worth it? I mean I want to be a doctor but I don't want to be a debt slave.

Thanks for your time
(I posted this on the pre-DO forums too but I wanted to get pre-MD students opinion as well)

 

[Ampharos]

That's a lot of money. Would you have to take out loans for all?

 

[hard08]

That's a lot of money. Would you have to take out loans for all?

Thanks for your response.

I would have to take out 275K line of credit (which I guess is private loan, I think this would be at prime=3%ish?)
The government would give me around 10-15Kish a year. So 40K in total.

The rest (around 150K+) would have to come from my parents.... I would ask them for around 40K+ a year

Hard to really think about it man..... I could keep trying in Canada but it's really competitive...... but I don't know if 500K debt is really worth it. Just looking for opinions from fellow pre-meds.

 

[Dr.hunk]

If you really want to be a doctor I would say yes! But personally I know I would want to do whatever it takes to make my dream come true you know? Also when you will be making 200k plus a year 500k isn't as terrible! Also msucom is a great school and you will be competitive by going there to get a good residency!

 

[StephenCurry1]

If you pick the right place to practice as a FM doc (midwest US), then it wouldn't be too bad to pay back with a couple frugal years as an attending.

 

[hard08]

If you really want to be a doctor I would say yes! But personally I know I would want to do whatever it takes to make my dream come true you know? Also when you will be making 200k plus a year 500k isn't as terrible! Also msucom is a great school and you will be competitive by going there to get a good residency!

Thanks for your response.

Do you know how easy it would be for a Canadian to get a residency? I know FM is reasonable but what about something else like ER on a H1B visa?

Yeah, I know MSUCOM is a great school. It's just the costs is getting me a bit concerned.

 

[Dinkin Flicka]

Thanks for your response.

Do you know how easy it would be for a Canadian to get a residency? I know FM is reasonable but what about something else like ER on a H1B visa?

Yeah, I know MSUCOM is a great school. It's just the costs is getting me a bit concerned.

Doesn't MSUCOM give scholarships to Canadians?

EM isn't too competitive of a speciality, at least for MDs.

 

[hard08]

If you pick the right place to practice as a FM doc (midwest US), then it wouldn't be too bad to pay back with a couple frugal years as an attending.

Is the midwest something that people don't want to go to? Sorry, I'm not really familiar with US geography. I googled and it seems to include Michigan, Minnesota, etc?

I also have a 3.97ish GPA so I could get into dental school in Canada which is what I'm considering

 

[hard08]

Doesn't MSUCOM give scholarships to Canadians?

EM isn't too competitive of a speciality, at least for MDs.

Yeah 20K scholarship. But normal OOS is 80K so for us it's 60K.

EM isn't competitive for MDs, but I think it may be out of reach for Canadian DOs?

 

[YouEverHadOurSausages?]

What are your other options? If you plan on waiting a year and reapplying, think of it as one year of a physician's salary that you would be giving up (~200k) during the waiting period. If you want to explore alternate career paths, then you would have to calculate the financial implications involved with those. I would say yes, it's always worth it. If you paid 50k a year for ten years post-residency, you're still making around 150k a year. There are also debt repayment programs with underserved/rural areas, scholarship opportunities, and some jobs allow you to negotiate some debt repayment during your initial contract signing. Also, I don't know if Canada has anything like it but the U.S. has repayment options in exchange for military service. Just my 2 cents, but I would say it's totally worth it unless you have a clear back-up plan that is more financially lucrative.

 

[hard08]

What are your other options? If you plan on waiting a year and reapplying, think of it as one year of a physician's salary that you would be giving up (~200k) during the waiting period. If you want to explore alternate career paths, then you would have to calculate the financial implications involved with those. I would say yes, it's always worth it. If you paid 50k a year for ten years post-residency, you're still making around 150k a year. There are also debt repayment programs with underserved/rural areas, scholarship opportunities, and some jobs allow you to negotiate some debt repayment during your initial contract signing. Also, I don't know if Canada has anything like it but the U.S. has repayment options in exchange for military service. Just my 2 cents, but I would say it's totally worth it unless you have a clear back-up plan that is more financially lucrative.

I could apply to dentistry next year in Canada and I think I would most likely get in. I have a 3.97ish GPA.

With a 200K salary, after tax it would be around 150K right? 50K a year and I have 100K left. 50K a year is 4K a month. For 10 years.

 

[YouEverHadOurSausages?]

I could apply to dentistry next year in Canada and I think I would most likely get in. I have a 3.97ish GPA.

With a 200K salary, after tax it would be around 150K right? 50K a year and I have 100K left. 50K a year is 4K a month. For 10 years.

It seems like short-term (10-15 years), dentistry and medical school would probably result in similar financial outcomes. However, long-term medical school will most likely make you better off financially. Either way, you have to consider which profession you would rather go in to. You will be making good money with either one, but it's not worth it if you don't enjoy what you are doing.

 

[ChrisMack390]

*Obligatory "you knew the tuition before you applied here" post*

 

[Dr.hunk]

I could apply to dentistry next year in Canada and I think I would most likely get in. I have a 3.97ish GPA.

With a 200K salary, after tax it would be around 150K right? 50K a year and I have 100K left. 50K a year is 4K a month. For 10 years.

Clearly dentistry and medicine are different professions. I would suggest factoring more than just finance into your decision! What is your reason for medicine? Also I love living in the Midwest and MSUCOM is a beautiful campus you definitely won't be stuck with family medicine but clearly you know more about your situation than us!

 

[sleazye]

Hi,

I got accepted to MSUCOM and the tuition is about 60K a year (for Canadians which I am).
Living expenses are around 20K.
80K per year X4 = 320K

with the ****ty CAD, it comes to a total of about 450K which I should probably overestimate to 500K to be honest (with interest and other costs I'm not considering).

I am Canadian so with residencies, I would be at a disadvantage and FM is most likely where I will end up.

Is 450K or 500K really worth it? I mean I want to be a doctor but I don't want to be a debt slave.

Thanks for your time
(I posted this on the pre-DO forums too but I wanted to get pre-MD students opinion as well)

I'm having the same dilemma. I was accepted to MSU-CHM which as an OOS student costs 90k per year for tuition alone with an estimated COA of 120k per year. I have a family so I'd need to take out extra money for living expenses, insurance, etc putting me around 500-600k. I'm dead set on primary care so even with a potential income of ~200-220k that amount of debt will be a bear to contain before it compounds out of control. At this point I am trying to finagle ways to possibly defer for a year to get instate tuition, which is still hefty at 45k/year, or do the HPSP scholarship through the military. It makes me so mad that many of the schools that supposedly have a mission to train the much needed primary care doctors set us up for failure by charging ungodly amounts for tuition knowing full well that we won't come out making the big bucks like some specialties. As grateful as I am to have an acceptance, it has created a lot of stress after the fact when trying to figure out how I'm going to pay for it without enslaving myself for life. Criminal in my opinion.

 

[StephenCurry1]

Is the midwest something that people don't want to go to? Sorry, I'm not really familiar with US geography. I googled and it seems to include Michigan, Minnesota, etc?

I also have a 3.97ish GPA so I could get into dental school in Canada which is what I'm considering

I guess it is not preferred. A FM doc in Los Angeles makes significantly less than an FM doc in Iowa.

 

[hard08]

Clearly dentistry and medicine are different professions. I would suggest factoring more than just finance into your decision! What is your reason for medicine? Also I love living in the Midwest and MSUCOM is a beautiful campus you definitely won't be stuck with family medicine but clearly you know more about your situation than us!

Thanks for your input. Yeah, I could also just keep applying to Canada MD buts its really competitive and might take many cycles. I don't actually have a problem with FM, I actually think I would prefer it but..... the debt being 500K and going into primary care.... IDK.

Are you from the Michigan area? What does Midwest actually refer to?

 

[hard08]

I'm having the same dilemma. I was accepted to MSU-CHM which as an OOS student costs 90k per year for tuition alone with an estimated COA of 120k per year. I have a family so I'd need to take out extra money for living expenses, insurance, etc putting me around 500-600k. I'm dead set on primary care so even with a potential income of ~200-220k that amount of debt will be a bear to contain before it compounds out of control. At this point I am trying to finagle ways to possibly defer for a year to get instate tuition, which is still hefty at 45k/year, or do the HPSP scholarship through the military. It makes me so mad that many of the schools that supposedly have a mission to train the much needed primary care doctors set us up for failure by charging ungodly amounts for tuition knowing full well that we won't come out making the big bucks like some specialties. As grateful as I am to have an acceptance, it has created a lot of stress after the fact when trying to figure out how I'm going to pay for it without enslaving myself for life. Criminal in my opinion.

500K-600K USD! Damn my 500K would atleast be in CAD and I would be making USD if I decided to stay in the US which I most likely would.

90K tuition is pretty insane......

 

[sleazye]

500K-600K USD! Damn my 500K would atleast be in CAD and I would be making USD if I decided to stay in the US which I most likely would.

90K tuition is pretty insane......

I agree. It sucks cause IMO everything about the program is perfect, except the cost.. My entire family is there and I have spent all of my life there save for the last three years so I was hoping I'd qualify for instate tuition. FYI generally the midwest is considered to be a huge area of the country roughly from North Dakota south to Oklahoma and Colorado east to Ohio.

 

[StephenCurry1]

Thanks for your input. Yeah, I could also just keep applying to Canada MD buts its really competitive and might take many cycles. I don't actually have a problem with FM, I actually think I would prefer it but..... the debt being 500K and going into primary care.... IDK.

Are you from the Michigan area? What does Midwest actually refer to?

I'm not but I know a doctor who flaunts her FM salary occasionally haha

 

[Dr.hunk]

Thanks for your input. Yeah, I could also just keep applying to Canada MD buts its really competitive and might take many cycles. I don't actually have a problem with FM, I actually think I would prefer it but..... the debt being 500K and going into primary care.... IDK.

Are you from the Michigan area? What does Midwest actually refer to?

Yes I'm from Michigan I did my undergrad at michigan state so I am familiar with the area! And the Midwest is like
Michigan Ohio Illinois all those states around the middle west of the United States! Some areas are known for farming but there are still a lot of big cities detroit, Grand Rapids, Lansing, Chicago where a lot of exciting living opportunities and also opportunities for medicine exist!

 

[Pusheen]

Would you be able to spend less than 20k for cost of living? You mentioned you have family in the area, can you live with them? 20k seems like a lot

 

[hard08]

I agree. It sucks cause IMO everything about the program is perfect, except the cost.. My entire family is there and I have spent all of my life there save for the last three years so I was hoping I'd qualify for instate tuition. FYI generally the midwest is considered to be a huge area of the country roughly from North Dakota south to Oklahoma and Colorado east to Ohio.

Oh that sucks. Hope you get in-state. Can't Americans just move to Texas for one year and get instate? Then they have a lot of options since Texas is one of the best states for medicine admissions? Or is it longer than one year there?

I know you said you were dead set on primary care, but you could always go into a more lucrative speciality since your MD+American. That's why I was thinking ER instead of FM if possible even though I think I would prefer FM.

I'm not but I know a doctor who flaunts her FM salary occasionally haha

You said if I practiced in the midwest, it wouldn't be so bad if I lived frugally. Do you know the salaries of FMs in the midwest. I assumed they would make around 200K.

Yes I'm from Michigan I did my undergrad at michigan state so I am familiar with the area! And the Midwest is like
Michigan Ohio Illinois all those states around the middle west of the United States! Some areas are known for farming but there are still a lot of big cities detroit, Grand Rapids, Lansing, Chicago where a lot of exciting living opportunities and also opportunities for medicine exist!

Oh ok. I'm getting a better understanding of the midwest. Doesn't seem so bad. I think if I was to stay in the US, I would most likely pick Michigan. I think the only place I wouldn't want to go is the South and the West.

 

[StephenCurry1]

You said if I practiced in the midwest, it wouldn't be so bad if I lived frugally. Do you know the salaries of FMs in the midwest. I assumed they would make around 200K.

She makes around 250k and works 4.5 days a week.

 

[hard08]

She makes around 250k and works 4.5 days a week.

Okay thank you. That seems quite good honestly. I think FM maybe worse paid in Canada because my FM works long hours and works Saturdays (half) and I think he makes 250-300Kish. But that's in Toronto.

 

[68PGunner]

Yes I'm from Michigan I did my undergrad at michigan state so I am familiar with the area! And the Midwest is like
Michigan Ohio Illinois all those states around the middle west of the United States! Some areas are known for farming but there are still a lot of big cities detroit, Grand Rapids, Lansing, Chicago where a lot of exciting living opportunities and also opportunities for medicine exist!

Might as well sign up for the military and get an actual deployment instead of a fake deployment like the above cities.

 

[sleazye]

Oh that sucks. Hope you get in-state. Can't Americans just move to Texas for one year and get instate? Then they have a lot of options since Texas is one of the best states for medicine admissions? Or is it longer than one year there?

I know you said you were dead set on primary care, but you could always go into a more lucrative speciality since your MD+American. That's why I was thinking ER instead of FM if possible even though I think I would prefer FM.

Yeah, TX is an great option and one that we had considered but in order to be successful in school I will need to be near family to help with the baby.

You're right about lucrative specialties as a viable option as an MD but for me the point of going back to school to study medicine is mainly to do with working in a field that interests me. Unfortunately my interests are all low paying haha. I already make a lot of money so it doesn't really make sense to do it for that reason if I'm not enjoying my work.

 

[Pablo94]

i am in the same situation man I just got into MSUCOM as an OOS applicant

 

[Papa Oso]

*Obligatory "you knew the tuition before you applied here" post*

\
This +1000000.

It's like people will never be happy. Be depressed and sad when you don't gen in anywhere, and then complain about the tuition when you do get accepted. If it is your only acceptance, holy moley, RUN WITH IT. If you reapply for next year, not only will you spend more money and blow the difference in cost by losing a year of physician salary down the road, but you also might get blacklisted from US schools for declining an acceptance. If the tuition is really something you can't stomach, hope that you get in elsewhere. Otherwise, stop complaining. You are very lucky.

 

[hard08]

\
This +1000000.

It's like people will never be happy. Be depressed and sad when you don't gen in anywhere, and then complain about the tuition when you do get accepted. If it is your only acceptance, holy moley, RUN WITH IT. If you reapply for next year, not only will you spend more money and blow the difference in cost by losing a year of physician salary down the road, but you also might get blacklisted from US schools for declining an acceptance. If the tuition is really something you can't stomach, hope that you get in elsewhere. Otherwise, stop complaining. You are very lucky.

For some people, tuition is pretty big. Loans would not cover all of my tuition+expenses like most students... Plus I would be mostly restricted to primary care which I'm totally fine with but that added to that tuition is pretty scary.

I would graduate in 7 years. The USD:CAD might be totally different....

 

[ChrisMack390]

For some people, tuition is pretty big. Loans would not cover all of my tuition+expenses like most students... Plus I would be mostly restricted to primary care which I'm totally fine with but that added to that tuition is pretty scary.

I would graduate in 7 years. The USD:CAD might be totally different....

Med school tuition is massive. Tuition at MSU is even more massive. I'm confused as to why you applied specifically to MSU or to any school that you would not attend if it was your only acceptance.

 

[hard08]

Med school tuition is massive. Tuition at MSU is even more massive. I'm confused as to why you applied specifically to MSU or to any school that you would not attend if it was your only acceptance.

They accept like 25 Canadians. I think they are friendliest DO school for us.

I would possibly accept it.... I honestly think I would've had more regrets if I hadn't applied to MSU.

I'm just thinking through the costs and debt before making a decision. And I'm looking at feedback from others.

 

[efle]

Are Canadians eligible for the loan forgiveness program for practicing in underserved areas?

Half a million + interest to pay back on a primary care income is going to be brutal, especially if you've grown up in cities and are not likely to be happy and comfortable in low population areas

For a little bit of comparison (albeit to MD numbers), keep in mind that you're looking at ~260% of the typical debt load and even borrowing 300k is almost enough to put you in the most indebted tenth...

 

[efle]

Also might want to check out this paper.

Look for example at their models for repayment in this table:

Scenario 18 there has someone only taking 300k for school, and trying to pay that back over 10 years leaves you with only $400/mo discretionary in a major city , a couple years into your career (post-residency). And that is with assumptions like zero college debt, a spouse with a college degree making decent money, a few years of renting after residency before trying to start paying down a house, and saving enough to send a single kid to state college...

Basically to make this sane you need to plan to go somewhere like the Midwest outside cities, where you can make a ton, live for cheap, and/or do loan forgiveness.

 

[nomoreequationsplease]

So I've never particularly understood why people are so concerned with a high amount of debt? Once in medical school, completion rates are extremely high. Physicians salaries are generally at min around 200k+ now I believe. Even after taxes youll be taking homes over 100k+ a year. Just live like youre on resident salary for a few years and you can knock down a ton of that debt very quickly.
I will be paying for everything by loans and will be looking at around the same amount of debt as you.

 

[efle]

So I've never particularly understood why people are so concerned with a high amount of debt? Once in medical school, completion rates are extremely high. Physicians salaries are generally at min around 200k+ now I believe. Even after taxes youll be taking homes over 100k+ a year. Just live like youre on resident salary for a few years and you can knock down a ton of that debt very quickly.
I will be paying for everything by loans and will be looking at around the same amount of debt as you.

You should read the paper I just linked above if 500k in debt on a primary care salary seems like something that should not concern you

 

[nomoreequationsplease]

You should read the paper I just linked above if 500k in debt on a primary care salary seems like something that should not concern you

I just read it over and I have to say that I disagree with some of its points. If you're single just entering youll have 98k or so to play around with. Subtract 60K for loans and you have 38k to play with. I grew up in Mass on less than this in a family of four. It might not be easy, but its definitely doable.

 

[sleazye]

So I've never particularly understood why people are so concerned with a high amount of debt? Once in medical school, completion rates are extremely high. Physicians salaries are generally at min around 200k+ now I believe. Even after taxes youll be taking homes over 100k+ a year. Just live like youre on resident salary for a few years and you can knock down a ton of that debt very quickly.
I will be paying for everything by loans and will be looking at around the same amount of debt as you.

This is an excellent and highly relevant article from the White Coat Investor site that was brought to my attention in a different thread: http://whitecoatinvestor.com/maximum-student-loan-debt-to-salary-ratio/

 

[efle]

I just read it over and I have to say that I disagree with some of its points. If you're single just entering youll have 98k or so to play around with. Subtract 60K for loans and you have 38k to play with. I grew up in Mass on less than this in a family of four. It might not be easy, but its definitely doable.

Most people don't want to live on a few hundred in discretionary per month after ~11 years of education and (very difficult) training though. Would love to hear the exact things in the model you think they did wrong that would let numbers 70% worse than their worst scenarios come out favorably

 

[Pusheen]

Also might want to check out this paper.

Look for example at their models for repayment in this table:

Scenario 18 there has someone only taking 300k for school, and trying to pay that back over 10 years leaves you with only $400/mo discretionary in a major city , a couple years into your career (post-residency). And that is with assumptions like zero college debt, a spouse with a college degree making decent money, a few years of renting after residency before trying to start paying down a house, and saving enough to send a single kid to state college...

Basically to make this sane you need to plan to go somewhere like the Midwest outside cities, where you can make a ton, live for cheap, and/or do loan forgiveness.

Damn, this is depressing. This is assuming a 150k salary, right?

 

[efle]

Damn, this is depressing. This is assuming a 150k salary, right?

yep

 

[Pusheen]

yep

I feel like someone paying expenses/living in Boston should be making more than that in primary care, especially over time. But this is a really good worse-case scenario case to keep in mind

 

[efle]

I feel like someone paying expenses/living in Boston should be making more than that in primary care, especially over time. But this is a really good worse-case scenario case to keep in mind

Unfortunately there is not a huge demand for a primary care doc in a city as attractive as Boston. The model also included income growth over time. They also plotted out for Denver, which was better, but still tough with 300k and still impossible if you extrapolate to 500k. Outside of 25+ year income based plans, military service, practicing in the rural underserved etc it's not feasible. Best case scenario you'd be living like a resident until your 40s with no real room for house, family, etc.

 

[Pusheen]

Unfortunately there is not a huge demand for a primary care doc in a city as attractive as Boston. The model also included income growth over time. They also plotted out for Denver, which was better, but still tough with 300k and still impossible if you extrapolate to 500k. Outside of 25+ year income based plans, military service, practicing in the rural underserved etc it's not feasible. Best case scenario you'd be living like a resident until your 40s with no real room for house, family, etc.

Makes sense. So pretty much the combination of <250k debt + popular city + primary care is a lethal one. Pick 2 out of 3

 

[nomoreequationsplease]

Most people don't want to live on a few hundred in discretionary per month after ~11 years of education and (very difficult) training though. Would love to hear the exact things in the model you think they did wrong that would let numbers 70% worse than their worst scenarios come out favorably

I was unable to find an accurate source for physician pay in Canada, so I cannot comment on how the transition over will affect him. I am also unable to comment on any matters of cost of living in Canada. That being said the 500k number is coming from a conversion to canadian dollars. He is prediciting 20k more than the current model in USD. The model at its worst predicts a 400 dollar discretionary income after a standard household spending module, which I assume includes food and rent. If they want more, they shouldnt live in Boston. I'm sure they can find a job that pays the same in a cheaper place to live, or commute from farther out of the city. I have friends that commute from Worcester to Boston for work and they say its not that bad.

 

[efle]

I was unable to find an accurate source for physician pay in Canada, so I cannot comment on how the transition over will affect him. I am also unable to comment on any matters of cost of living in Canada. That being said the 500k number is coming from a conversion to canadian dollars. He is prediciting 20k more than the current model in USD. The model at its worst predicts a 400 dollar discretionary income after a standard household spending module, which I assume includes food and rent. If they want more, they shouldnt live in Boston. I'm sure they can find a job that pays the same in a cheaper place to live, or commute from farther out of the city. I have friends that commute from Worcester to Boston for work and they say its not that bad.

Canadian makes substantially less than US primaries I believe, pretty sure he'd have to practice in the states. And adjusting to USD helps a lot, brings it to ~375k USD...and still leaves it way past the point where it should become concerning. The path to MD, the work hours of the job, etc really stop making sense for most people at that kind of debt level.

There are of course exceptions. Some people are happy with military, or small rural town work, etc. But for most people it isn't worth it when you end up in your 30s busting your ass after a dozen prior years of busting your ass, just to live like you'd taken a halfway decent 9-5 job with your bachelors.

 

[nomoreequationsplease]

This is an excellent and highly relevant article from the White Coat Investor site that was brought to my attention in a different thread: http://whitecoatinvestor.com/maximum-student-loan-debt-to-salary-ratio/

I'm assuming that 120k is post tax while he says its pretax. This would result in two very different models. That being said, I do concede that I can see how the money is a deterrent to some people.

 

[efle]

I'm assuming that 120k is post tax while he says its pretax. This would result in two very different models. That being said, I do concede that I can see how the money is a deterrent to some people.

It's pre-tax, she's a dentist.

Article: Look, see, you'd have to be insane to take on educational debt at a 3x ratio to your income. Literally. Insane.
Nomo: Ehh, I guess I can see how it might deter some people.

You are an optimistic dude !

 

[Lannister]

So I've never particularly understood why people are so concerned with a high amount of debt? Once in medical school, completion rates are extremely high. Physicians salaries are generally at min around 200k+ now I believe. Even after taxes youll be taking homes over 100k+ a year. Just live like youre on resident salary for a few years and you can knock down a ton of that debt very quickly.
I will be paying for everything by loans and will be looking at around the same amount of debt as you.

I generally agree that for most med students, debt isn't really something that's worth worrying about...to a point. But if I had to go into >300k in debt for med school, I'd really started questioning if it was worth it.

 

[nomoreequationsplease]

It's pre-tax, she's a dentist.

Article: Look, see, you'd have to be insane to take on educational debt at a 3x ratio to your income. Literally. Insane.
Nomo: Ehh, I guess I can see how it might deter some people.

You are an optimistic dude !

Woops didnt read it all the way through! My bad. And optimism got me through my youth! Always been weirdly optimistic... No idea why.
Anyway, with prior planning and a understanding of how you are comfortable living, most things mentioned here can either be a deterrent or seen as unimportant. I've personally planned out all of my expenses from college and hopefully have my medical school expenses planned out as well. Is it hard to stick to a budget and go without? Yes. Can it be done? Yes.
I never really pictured myself having a ton of money after medical school, so I guess thats probably why I dont see eye to eye on this with a bunch of people.

Edit: I do see where a lot of you are coming from. It's really up to the individual to decide if this is worth it to them.