Is 450K or 500K worth it?

[thepoopologist]

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$450,000/year is an enormous debt to be carrying before you even start residency, and leaves zero room for error for the things you can control, and zero room for error for the things you can't control (i.e. all that is going on with DO schools, the merger, the match).

If your goal is to have a happy life in a tolerable to enjoyable profession of high income, I wouldn't do it until you can get into a lower cost school or if dentistry and such is more readily available in Canada and you could see yourself being happy as a dentist.

If your goal is to be a physician, with the possibility in the distant future of having a happy life, I would still hold out until there are cheaper options and they are MD options. Even if the odds stack in your favor in that preclinicals go well, Comlex and USMLE go well, the attendings liked you enough during your clinicals and a couple even write you stellar letters, you are still faced with the uncertainty of how well DO's will match after the merger.

I realize I am saying this as a DO however there was no flux with this merger business, Aacomas, etc when I was in school. I can also say as someone who interviews MD and DO candidates for arguably one of the least competitive specialties, psychiatry, that my podunk program gets thousand of applications, 1% of them get a face to face with us, and 10% of that 1% match with us. Also, my student loan debt definitely affected my job decisions. Will I qualify for PSLF? Can I moonlight? Does this pay enough? >>> "This will be fun" "Wow this is right by the city! Right by the ocean!" Yes, I can still buy a nice house however because of my student loan debt, my options are wait until my debt is paid off + %10-20 down payment is available, which may take another 7-10 years, or take out a physician loan at a higher rate.

So yes, things can definitely "work out" and you may find yourself matched into a hugely desirable specialty where a $500k debt is "no problem at all!" but you need a lot of things to go your way, and you need to make it to the end - some DO NOT - for this to all pay off. More debt leaves more stress, less room for error, less viable options as you start off your career. Frankly going to an outrageously expensive medical school to do FM is like going to New York University to get a literature degree to become a teacher (the problem isn't the degree or the profession, but the choice of taking the most expensive route to get there).

My 2 cents.

 

[hard08]

$450,000/year is an enormous debt to be carrying before you even start residency, and leaves zero room for error for the things you can control, and zero room for error for the things you can't control (i.e. all that is going on with DO schools, the merger, the match).

If your goal is to have a happy life in a tolerable to enjoyable profession of high income, I wouldn't do it until you can get into a lower cost school or if dentistry and such is more readily available in Canada and you could see yourself being happy as a dentist.

If your goal is to be a physician, with the possibility in the distant future of having a happy life, I would still hold out until there are cheaper options and they are MD options. Even if the odds stack in your favor in that preclinicals go well, Comlex and USMLE go well, the attendings liked you enough during your clinicals and a couple even write you stellar letters, you are still faced with the uncertainty of how well DO's will match after the merger.

I realize I am saying this as a DO however there was no flux with this merger business, Aacomas, etc when I was in school. I can also say as someone who interviews MD and DO candidates for arguably one of the least competitive specialties, psychiatry, that my podunk program gets thousand of applications, 1% of them get a face to face with us, and 10% of that 1% match with us. Also, my student loan debt definitely affected my job decisions. Will I qualify for PSLF? Can I moonlight? Does this pay enough? >>> "This will be fun" "Wow this is right by the city! Right by the ocean!" Yes, I can still buy a nice house however because of my student loan debt, my options are wait until my debt is paid off + %10-20 down payment is available, which may take another 7-10 years, or take out a physician loan at a higher rate.

So yes, things can definitely "work out" and you may find yourself matched into a hugely desirable specialty where a $500k debt is "no problem at all!" but you need a lot of things to go your way, and you need to make it to the end - some DO NOT - for this to all pay off. More debt leaves more stress, less room for error, less viable options as you start off your career. Frankly going to an outrageously expensive medical school to do FM is like going to New York University to get a literature degree to become a teacher (the problem isn't the degree or the profession, but the choice of taking the most expensive route to get there).

My 2 cents.

Thanks for this information.

Yeah the uncertainty of DOs and even the CAD:USD is making me hesitant.

Also, I would be carrying around 275K debt at 3% interest. And then 40K at a higher interest rate from the government.
The rest would be from my parents.

 

[efle]

I would be carrying around 275K debt at 3% interest. And then 40K at a higher interest rate from the government.

Is that in USD? 275 low interest CAD + small gov at higher is much, much more reasonable.

 

[hard08]

Is that in USD? 275 low interest CAD + small gov at higher is much, much more reasonable.

275K is CAD and the interest rate is prime which I believe is 3%.
The government interest I think is prime + something. Maybe 5%?

The rest which I think would be around 200K would come from my parents...

 

[efle]

We can't really answer for you what it means to get that from your parents. That's between you and them. A career as a primary care DO with ~235K USD in debt, most at 3%, is very doable however.

 

[hard08]

We can't really answer for you what it means to get that from your parents. That's between you and them. A career as a primary care DO with ~235K USD in debt, most at 3%, is very doable however.

How about the uncertainty of DO residency and matching for Canadians? We are not treated as Americans. And with the merge... IDK

I also don't know if I want to stay in the US to work which I probably would need to do.

Thanks for your responses.

 

[efle]

How about the uncertainty of DO residency and matching for Canadians? We are not treated as Americans. And with the merge... IDK

I also don't know if I want to stay in the US to work which I probably would need to do.

Thanks for your responses.

Again can't answer for you! It's up to you to decide where you might be happy. Do you feel you need to go back to the city you were from? Would you be happy in a very northern bordering US city? How about a northern bordering smaller city out in the northwest? Your answers to these things can drastically change how sensible (financially and otherwise) it will be to pursue this route.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Canadian makes substantially less than US primaries I believe, pretty sure he'd have to practice in the states. And adjusting to USD helps a lot, brings it to ~375k USD...and still leaves it way past the point where it should become concerning. The path to MD, the work hours of the job, etc really stop making sense for most people at that kind of debt level.

There are of course exceptions. Some people are happy with military, or small rural town work, etc. But for most people it isn't worth it when you end up in your 30s busting your ass after a dozen prior years of busting your ass, just to live like you'd taken a halfway decent 9-5 job with your bachelors.

Okay so we will say you make 200k a year post tax as a primary care doc
You are 400k in debt
All you have to do is live off 100k a year and you could pay your debt of in 4 years dude
And dude, 100k is a very very comfortable living! It is beyond a half way decent 9-5 job...
I think the debt would be unreasonable only if it was like 700k and you went into FM
700k and you go into surgery it isn't bad at all
A million in debt while in surgery is still reasonable in my opinion

But I have to ask, what the hell someone would be doing to get into a million in debt during med school???

 

[efle]

Okay so we will say you make 200k a year post tax as a primary care doc

They don't

the debt would be unreasonable only if it was like 700k and you went into FM

This is nonsense read the paper earlier in the thread

 

[hard08]

Again can't answer for you! It's up to you to decide where you might be happy. Do you feel you need to go back to the city you were from? Would you be happy in a very northern bordering US city? How about a northern bordering smaller city out in the northwest? Your answers to these things can drastically change how sensible (financially and otherwise) it will be to pursue this route.

I think coming back to Canada is kind of important to me. Spending 7 years in the US for school +residency and then a number of years working to pay off the debt, before going back home is depressing.

And the 200K I ask from my parents is a bit steep. I think I would honestly be stressed the whole time. I honestly think I'd rather do dentistry in Canada....

Thanks again, you were very helpful. You gave me a lot to think about.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

They don't


This is nonsense read the paper earlier in the thread

This is from the BLS a government source

 

[Dr.Sticks]

I think coming back to Canada is kind of important to me. Spending 7 years in the US for school +residency and then a number of years working to pay off the debt, before going back home is depressing.

And the 200K I ask from my parents is a bit steep. I think I would honestly be stressed the whole time. I honestly think I'd rather do dentistry in Canada....

Thanks again, you were very helpful. You gave me a lot to think about.

You could always live in the Upper Penninsula of Michigan
That is basically Canada
Lol sorry

You are from Ontario?

 

[hard08]

Okay so we will say you make 200k a year post tax as a primary care doc
You are 400k in debt
All you have to do is live off 100k a year and you could pay your debt of in 4 years dude
And dude, 100k is a very very comfortable living! It is beyond a half way decent 9-5 job...
I think the debt would be unreasonable only if it was like 700k and you went into FM
700k and you go into surgery it isn't bad at all
A million in debt while in surgery is still reasonable in my opinion

But I have to ask, what the hell someone would be doing to get into a million in debt during med school???

..... 200K post tax? Is that even possible for a FM not working long hours. IDK what the tax rate in the US is but wouldn't that require an income of around 300K+ before tax?

I want to be really conservative in my estimates for income. The highest estimate I would do is 200K pre-tax and 150K post tax. Even then, I think a bit lower is more realistic.

This is my life. It's real money. I don't want to go in all super optimistic like I'm gonna be one of those FMs pulling in 300K or 400K.

 

[hard08]

You could always live in the Upper Penninsula of Michigan
That is basically Canada
Lol sorry

You are from Ontario?

Yeah. Toronto. Are you from Michigan?

 

[Dr.Sticks]

..... 200K post tax? Is that even possible for a FM not working long hours. IDK what the tax rate in the US is but wouldn't that require an income of around 300K+ before tax?

I want to be really conservative in my estimates for income. The highest estimate I would do is 200K pre-tax and 150K post tax. Even then, I think a bit lower is more realistic.

This is my life. It's real money. I don't want to go in all super optimistic like I'm gonna be one of those FMs pulling in 300K or 400K.

Depends where you live, some states do not have an income tax..
Like Alaska
You could probably do FM in Alaska and make that.
See my BLS chart
Mean Alaska pay is 235k
https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291062.htm
No state income
You would owe federal though
And Medicare and s.s
Unless something changes

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Yeah. Toronto. Are you from Michigan?

Nope
I live below the mason Dixon line but I am not in a CSA state.

 

[efle]

This is from the BLS a government source

Those are pre tax...

Depends where you live, some states do not have an income tax

The federal income tax is the big one...

@hard08 please stick to the models in papers like what I linked and/or sites like whitecoatinvestor as you research this, not random SDN advice, mine included. It should be fairly easy to figure out what the math looks like once you've decided if you are comfortable practicing in the US and/or outside of major cities. Even sticking to a big northern city, ~240k USD debt at low interest works out nicely, if your parents are not horribly burdened by providing so much help.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Those are pre tax...



The federal income tax is the big one...

@hard08 please stick to the models in papers like what I linked and/or sites like whitecoatinvestor as you research this, not random SDN advice, mine included. It should be fairly easy to figure out what the math looks like once you've decided if you are comfortable practicing in the US and/or outside of major cities. Even sticking to a big northern city, ~240k debt at low interest works out nicely, if your parents are not horribly burdened by providing so much help.

I agree; I was just pointing out the pay range by state.
Alaska pays FM docs the most money..
In the Bush of Northern Alaska though, that is a tough life..

Btw did we cover loan assistance? Do Canadians get it?
In rural areas they will pay some of your debt off with a certain number of years of service
Loan repayment helps justify FM more

 

[hard08]

Those are pre tax...



The federal income tax is the big one...

@hard08 please stick to the models in papers like what I linked and/or sites like whitecoatinvestor as you research this, not random SDN advice, mine included. It should be fairly easy to figure out what the math looks like once you've decided if you are comfortable practicing in the US and/or outside of major cities. Even sticking to a big northern city, ~240k USD debt at low interest works out nicely, if your parents are not horribly burdened by providing so much help.

Ok thanks. The amount they give me though, I would have to pay some back because I have siblings.

And also, for the chart you posted, if one borrows 250K, pays $4100 monthly for 10 years. That means I'll have 1300 to use for whatever after tax and expenses? And once the debt has been cleared at age 40, I'll have $3200?

 

[efle]

Ok thanks. The amount they give me though, I would have to pay some back because I have siblings.

And also, for the chart you posted, if one borrows 250K, pays $4100 monthly for 10 years. That means I'll have 1300 to use for whatever after tax and expenses? And once the debt has been cleared at age 40, I'll have $3200?

Right, assuming a typical US MD major city primary care income and cost of living, as well as a lot of other things (working spouse with college degree, etc). You'd be living very reasonable with only 250k debt, paying it all off in 10 years with over a grand in disposable income per month, and then that tripling after you finish paying off.

It would also be about a 1.8 Ed Debt : Income ratio, which the whitecoatinvestor article goes through the math to show is sensible. It's when you get up towards 3x that you start having major issues figuring out a reasonable lifestyle and repayment plan.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Right, assuming a typical US MD major city primary care income and cost of living, as well as a lot of other things (working spouse with college degree, etc). You'd be living very reasonable with only 250k debt, paying it all off in 10 years with over a grand in disposable income per month, and then that tripling after you finish paying off.

It would also be about a 1.8 Ed Debt : Income ratio, which the whitecoatinvestor article goes through the math to show is sensible. It's when you get up towards 3x that you start having major issues figuring out a reasonable lifestyle and repayment plan.

The white coat investor lives too lavishly in my opinion
Then again I am so frugal I think going without indoor plumbing and grid electric is a great idea. (Legal in most of the U.S)

I could easily live off 10k a year

I guess you could say my views align more with money moustache man. (Who lives off 30k and makes well into six figures)

 

[hard08]

Right, assuming a typical US MD major city primary care income and cost of living, as well as a lot of other things (working spouse with college degree, etc). You'd be living very reasonable with only 250k debt, paying it all off in 10 years with over a grand in disposable income per month, and then that tripling after you finish paying off.

It would also be about a 1.8 Ed Debt : Income ratio, which the whitecoatinvestor article goes through the math to show is sensible. It's when you get up towards 3x that you start having major issues figuring out a reasonable lifestyle and repayment plan.

A grand of disposable income after graduating isn't much is it? You won't really start saving for retirement until age 40 right? They said they included expenses. How much did they estimate the expenses to be?

And federal loan forgiveness is if you go work in some area the government wants you to right? Would this apply to Canadians?

 

[Dr.Sticks]

A grand of disposable income after graduating isn't much is it? You won't really start saving for retirement until age 40 right? They said they included expenses. How much did they estimate the expenses to be?

And federal loan forgiveness is if you go work in some area the government wants you to right? Would this apply to Canadians?

Don't know but there were talks about scrapping the whole loan forgiveness program. It might happen with a republican dominant government.

 

[efle]

A grand of disposable income after graduating isn't much is it? You won't really start saving for retirement until age 40 right? They said they included expenses. How much did they estimate the expenses to be?

Read the paper!

It is a lot, and it isn't a lot, at the same time. For the typical person making 40 or 50 grand a year, $16k/year disposable sounds awesome. For the typical person of physician caliber intelligence and work ethic, being at that level in your 30s after a decade of brutal preparation, it's not very attractive. For many people business, engineering, coding routes might make a lot more sense.

You'd definitely still be living well from 40 on though.

 

[efle]

And federal loan forgiveness is if you go work in some area the government wants you to right? Would this apply to Canadians?

No idea, but the information can surely be found with Google and maybe some phone calls. Even if loan forgiveness is not an option, the pay increase you can get from working in low population northern areas would make the loans a lot more manageable.

 

[hard08]

Read the paper!

It is a lot, and it isn't a lot, at the same time. For the typical person making 40 or 50 grand a year, $16k/year disposable sounds awesome. For the typical person of physician caliber intelligence and work ethic, being at that level in your 30s after a decade of brutal preparation, it's not very attractive. For many people business, engineering, coding routes might make a lot more sense.

You'd definitely still be living well from 40 on though.

Yeah I read the paper in more depth now. 3% of salary goes to retirement.

The chart you linked assumes 195k salary right (Table 3)? I also looked at the 145k salary table and they say that the doctor would probably have to do 25 year repayment or do loan forgiveness/repayment.

Isn't that part concerning?

 

[efle]

Yeah I read the paper in more depth now. 3% of salary goes to retirement.

The chart you linked assumes 195k salary right (Table 3)? I also looked at the 145k salary table and they say that the doctor would probably have to do 25 year repayment or do loan forgiveness/repayment.

Isn't that part concerning?

You can easily expect 195+ if you're not picky about where you practice, so how concerning it is depends on your desire to stay in a big popular city. 25 year repayment means living a little easier, but not getting the jump to living extremely well until your late 50s, so that's also a preference choice. Mathematically the net cost of the 25 year repay is astronomical for high interest plans, but at 3% not as brutal

 

[hard08]

You can easily expect 195+ if you're not picky about where you practice, so how concerning it is depends on your desire to stay in a big popular city. 25 year repayment means living a little easier, but not getting the jump to living extremely well until your late 50s, so that's also a preference choice. Mathematically the net cost of the 25 year repay is astronomical for high interest plans, but at 3% not as brutal

Yeah I think 200K is not unreasonable. It would probably have to be at least an hour from the city though right?

Do you know what % interest they assumed in their estimates? I think Americans usually have 6 or 7% loans. 3% is not that bad. That's around 8K (CAD) interest every year on a 275K CAD loan.

But I'm also thinking about the 200K my parents would be giving to me instead of investing and that rate of return. What do you think about that factor?

 

[efle]

Yeah I think 200K is not unreasonable. It would probably have to be at least an hour from the city though right?

Do you know what % interest they assumed in their estimates? I think Americans usually have 6 or 7% loans. 3% is not that bad. That's around 8K (CAD) interest every year on a 275K CAD loan.

But I'm also thinking about the 200K my parents would be giving to me instead of investing and that rate of return. What do you think about that factor?

It will depend on location in the country and what you consider a "city" ! There are probably some nice isolated pockets of a few hundred thousand that would not feel too much of a shock to someone raised in a big city.

I believe 7%, a lot worse.

If your parents can get more than a 3% return it makes more sense to invest it. For example if they can get 6% return, they could give you 3% to essentially keep that part of your debt interest free, as if they'd loaned it to you, while getting the other 3% as well.

 

[hard08]

It will depend on location in the country and what you consider a "city" ! There are probably some nice isolated pockets of a few hundred thousand that would not feel too much of a shock to someone raised in a big city.

I believe 7%, a lot worse.

If your parents can get more than a 3% return it makes more sense to invest it. For example if they can get 6% return, they could give you 3% to essentially keep that part of your debt interest free, as if they'd loaned it to you, while getting the other 3% as well.

Yeah but my parents would be giving me all of that 200K for med school (around 50K CAD a year). So I was trying to say that they wouldn't be able to invest it which is their plan. I would be using it all up to pay the 450K CAD cost of attendance (275K loan + 200K from my parents)

Yeah, the city thing is subjective. I drive 1 hour outside of Toronto, and it's pretty depressing for me honestly... and that's not even rural areas yet.

 

[efle]

Yeah but my parents would be giving me all of that 200K for med school (around 50K CAD a year). So I was trying to say that they wouldn't be able to invest it which is their plan. I would be using it all up to pay the 450K CAD cost of attendance (275K loan + 200K from my parents)

Yeah, the city thing is subjective. I drive 1 hour outside of Toronto, and it's pretty depressing for me honestly... and that's not even rural areas yet.

Right, so first option is you get 200k less MD debt but owe them 200k. Still same overall debt amount, but 200k of it is now interest free thanks to Bank of the Parents.

Second option is you take 200k more MD debt at 3%, while they invest their 200k at say ~6% return. They can send you half their return to effectively make your 200k extra MD debt interest-free, while still getting another 3% return for them.

In both cases you owe the same amount and pay interest on the same amount, the latter just has an extra 3% on 200k for your parents.

You don't necessarily have to live in farmland or anything! I don't know what it looks like an hour outside Toronto, but I'm thinking a small city of like 100,000-250,000 or so. Not gonna have skyscrapers but also not gonna be devoid of college educations and good places to eat.

 

[hard08]

Right, so first option is you get 200k less MD debt but owe them 200k. Still same overall debt amount, but 200k of it is now interest free thanks to Bank of the Parents.

Second option is you take 200k more MD debt at 3%, while they invest their 200k at say ~6% return. They can send you half their return to effectively make your 200k extra MD debt interest-free, while still getting another 3% return for them.

In both cases you owe the same amount and pay interest on the same amount, the latter just has an extra 3% on 200k for your parents.

You don't necessarily have to live in farmland or anything! I don't know what it looks like an hour outside Toronto, but I'm thinking a small city of like 100,000-250,000 or so. Not gonna have skyscrapers but also not gonna be devoid of college educations and good places to eat.

Actually I can't do the second option because the max loans given by banks is 275K CAD. IDK how America works but that's it. Everything else has to be from outside sources.

You can't get multiple loans in Canada. You can only get one loan from one bank and the maximum that bank will currently loan is 275K.
I think maybe you Americans can take multiple loans or something?

So my parents would not be able to invest 200K, and give me 3%. I would need it to pay for school.

 

[efle]

I think maybe you Americans can take multiple loans or something?

We use gov loans at 7% I believe, which can cover all the way up into the 300s and 400s USD.

It sounds like you only have one option then, 275k CAD loan and the rest from parents?

What a bizarre system, by the way. If you didn't have parents that could give you anything, how would you be supposed to pay for school?

 

[hard08]

We use gov loans at 7% I believe, which can cover all the way up into the 300s and 400s USD.

It sounds like you only have one option then, 275k CAD loan and the rest from parents?

What a bizarre system, by the way. If you didn't have parents that could give you anything, how would you be supposed to pay for school?

It's not really bizarre actually, med or dental school should not cost anywhere near 275K for a Canadian.

Med schools tuition here is $20,000-$25,000. Dental school is $40,000-$50,000. So actually needing a full 275K is unrealistic here. A 275K loan should cover everything (tuition+expenses).

I think we just spend less money on tuition than you guys. Undergrad here costed me 7k a year (in tuition) and I never took out any loans for it.

It doesn't make sense to be handing out multiple loans to students. Canada probably has better/ more conservative financial practices and banking institutions.

Here the government only gives you max 13k a year (7k loan, 7k grant, in Ontario specifically, it differs by province). The 7k is interest free until you graduate (after graduation, it's I think it's 5-7%). This is usually enough for undergraduate students. If you go to med or dental school, you usually get a loan (at prime which is 3% now I believe) from a bank.

The government gives loans of 300-400k in the US??? At 7%?? Holy ****..... I thought banks gave the loans? Do most American medical students take out loans from the government? Or from banks?

 

[efle]

It's not really bizarre actually, med or dental school should not cost anywhere near 275K for a Canadian.

Med schools tuition here is $20,000-$25,000. Dental school is $40,000-$50,000. So actually needing a full 275K is unrealistic here. A 275K loan should cover everything (tuition+expenses).

I think we just spend less money on tuition than you guys. Undergrad here costed me 7k a year (in tuition) and I never took out any loans for it.

It doesn't make sense to be handing out multiple loans to students. Canada probably has better/ more conservative financial practices and banking institutions.

Here the government only gives you max 13k a year (7k loan, 7k grant, in Ontario specifically, it differs by province). The 7k is interest free until you graduate (after graduation, it's I think it's 5-7%). This is usually enough for undergraduate students. If you go to med or dental school, you usually get a loan (at prime which is 3% now I believe) from a bank.

The government gives loans of 300-400k in the US??? At 7%?? Holy ****..... I thought banks gave the loans? Do most American medical students take out loans from the government? Or from banks?

Most from government. And yeah, high percent. This is why the debt is the first thing docs will bring up whenever you mention how big the paychecks are - it's often not until your 40s you actually get to live like you're making two hundred grand a year.

So what is the actual choice you're looking at? Reapplying to Canadian schools next year, vs taking a US DO with maxed loan, huge parental aid, and then needing to practice here?

 

[Dr.Sticks]

It's not really bizarre actually, med or dental school should not cost anywhere near 275K for a Canadian.

Med schools tuition here is $20,000-$25,000. Dental school is $40,000-$50,000. So actually needing a full 275K is unrealistic here. A 275K loan should cover everything (tuition+expenses).

I think we just spend less money on tuition than you guys. Undergrad here costed me 7k a year (in tuition) and I never took out any loans for it.

It doesn't make sense to be handing out multiple loans to students. Canada probably has better/ more conservative financial practices and banking institutions.

Here the government only gives you max 13k a year (7k loan, 7k grant, in Ontario specifically, it differs by province). The 7k is interest free until you graduate (after graduation, it's I think it's 5-7%). This is usually enough for undergraduate students. If you go to med or dental school, you usually get a loan (at prime which is 3% now I believe) from a bank.

The government gives loans of 300-400k in the US??? At 7%?? Holy ****..... I thought banks gave the loans? Do most American medical students take out loans from the government? Or from banks?

The American student loan debt is I think a trillion dollars
That is the U.S government loaned 1 trillion dollars to students so far in total

Also here college varies..
Some private schools have like 50k a year tuition, others are cheapest like 30k a year.
State schools are all over, in my state Maryland it is 10k I believe
In Pennsylvania instate students pay 16k..

I think the cheapest school in the U.S is Brgham Young and that is a Mormon dominant school.

Yeah it is 5k a year at Brigham(tuition)
Wowwww lol

Oh and our government will loan you money for anything in college..
You could literally declare your major as Yoga or something stupid go to a 50k a year private school and pretty much borrow it all...

 

[efle]

You could literally declare your major as Yoga or something stupid go to a 50k a year private school and pretty much borrow it all...

Which isn't even financially stupid on the lender's part, like it should be, because these loans cannot be erased. They remain even after declaring bankruptcy. The loans will keep coming until people start dying before they can finish paying.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Which isn't even financially stupid on the lender's part, like it should be, because these loans cannot be erased. They remain even after declaring bankruptcy. The loans will keep coming until people start dying before they can finish paying.

I think we should have major restrictions on loans honestly..
So yes loan the Engineer that, but not the yoga major...

 

[efle]

I think we should have major restrictions on loans honestly..
So yes loan the Engineer that, but not the yoga major...

That's a tough one because people differ in their success with certain degrees. A lot of people that graduate with an art degree, for example, will fail to find any kind of employment using their degree at all. Others land jobs paying 40k+ straight out of school, better than many science majors can even do (look at all the Bio majors that scribe for their gap years for example). How can you tell which art students will be which? Is it really a good solution to say only the children of rich parents can get an education in art?

 

[Dr.Sticks]

That's a tough one because people differ in their success with certain degrees. A lot of people that graduate with an art degree, for example, will fail to find any kind of employment using their degree at all. Others land jobs paying 40k+ straight out of school, better than many science majors can even do (look at all the Bio majors that scribe for their gap years for example). How can you tell which art students will be which? Is it really a good solution to say only the children of rich parents can get an education in art?

Good point; But we could at least put restriction on how much we will give.
I think it is a bad idea to let some 18 year old kid go six figure in debt for an art degree.
Also yes my bio degree major is worthless. That is why I am thinking of a 2nd major...
I have no chance to get a fed job in the national parks since I am not a vet.. So yeah worthless lol

 

[hard08]

Most from government. And yeah, high percent. This is why the debt is the first thing docs will bring up whenever you mention how big the paychecks are - it's often not until your 40s you actually get to live like you're making two hundred grand a year.

So what is the actual choice you're looking at? Reapplying to Canadian schools next year, vs taking a US DO with maxed loan, huge parental aid, and then needing to practice here?

Yes basically. 275K loan at 3% + 200k from parents + 40K from government (interest free until graduation where it goes to 5%).
To go to USDO school.
As a Canadian I would have low chance at non-primary care. I would have to live the next 17 years of my life in the US which no offense to Americans but to me that is a huge downgrade and depressing thought.

I would reapply to Canadian med (which is super tough to get into) multiple times or maybe just go to dental school which I am really competitive for (I think I would get in with 80% certainty unless I bomb the interview). Or I could get a decent paying job with my masters that I'm currently working on.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Yes basically. 275K loan at 3% + 200k from parents + 40K from government (interest free until graduation where it goes to 5%).
To go to USDO school.
As a Canadian I would have low chance at non-primary care. I would have to live the next 17 years of my life in the US which no offense to Americans but to me that is a huge downgrade and depressing thought.

I would reapply to Canadian med (which is super tough to get into) multiple times or maybe just go to dental school which I am really competitive for (I think I would get in with 80% certainty unless I bomb the interview). Or I could get a decent paying job with my masters that I'm currently working on.

Or you could do it my way
Say you make 100k after tax
Live off 50k a year(invest, save, live) and put 50k into loans.
You won't have to spend 17 years in the U.S

 

[hard08]

Good point; But we could at least put restriction on how much we will give.
I think it is a bad idea to let some 18 year old kid go six figure in debt for an art degree.
Also yes my bio degree major is worthless. That is why I am thinking of a 2nd major...
I have no chance to get a fed job in the national parks since I am not a vet.. So yeah worthless lol

The possibility of going into six figure debt for dumb degrees like art...... Wow. I can't believe America lets people do that.

In Canada you literally have to be a complete idiot to rack up debt like that. Like the government will actually not let you be that stupid because we have a limit. Our tuition is way cheaper so it's reasonable to put a limit. People here still go and do stupid degrees but the government protects them from their stupidity by letting them be in debt by like max 30-40K. That's still insane for a art degree or whatever but at least the person's life isn't ruined.

People can still get high interest private loans but only really desperate people go for them.

 

[hard08]

Or you could do it my way
Say you make 100k after tax
Live off 50k a year(invest, save, live) and put 50k into loans.
You won't have to spend 17 years in the U.S

Yeah but I'd still have to ask my parents for 200K.

 

[efle]

Yes basically. 275K loan at 3% + 200k from parents + 40K from government (interest free until graduation where it goes to 5%).
To go to USDO school.
As a Canadian I would have low chance at non-primary care. I would have to live the next 17 years of my life in the US which no offense to Americans but to me that is a huge downgrade and depressing thought.

I would reapply to Canadian med (which is super tough to get into) multiple times or maybe just go to dental school which I am really competitive for (I think I would get in with 80% certainty unless I bomb the interview). Or I could get a decent paying job with my masters that I'm currently working on.

No offense taken, I'm born and raised here and my country regularly makes me say "what the hell are you even doing, America??" It varies a lot by region though. Life in a liberal northern bubble like Ann Arbor, Michigan would keep you sane I think.

Do you essentially use the same application for dental? In the US you take a different entrance exam and still need solid grades. And would you be happy with life as a dentist (maybe doing something like oral/maxillo surg?) Does Canada have the equivalent of PA/Physician Assistant degrees?

 

[hard08]

No offense taken, I'm born and raised here and my country regularly makes me say "what the hell are you even doing, America??" It varies a lot by region though. Life in a liberal northern bubble like Ann Arbor, Michigan would keep you sane I think.

Do you essentially use the same application for dental? In the US you take a different entrance exam and still need solid grades. And would you be happy with life as a dentist (maybe doing something like oral/maxillo surg?) Does Canada have the equivalent of PA/Physician Assistant degrees?

Haha. Yeah but I love Toronto and this area. Michigan is a nice state though.

Dental we just need the DAT (Canadian version which is super easy, I wrote it with 1 week studying and did well enough) and high grades like 3.9+ which I have.
Yeah I think I would be fine as a dentist. It would be 160K debt (I would probably be able to live at home if I got into my nearest university).

Canada does have PA degrees but I'm not interested in that as I would feel inferior to doctors. (Just a feeling I know I wouldn't be able to get over).

Just the issue of asking my parents for so much money is making me hesitate on DO school.

 

[Frogger27]

The possibility of going into six figure debt for dumb degrees like art...... Wow. I can't believe America lets people do that.

In Canada you literally have to be a complete idiot to rack up debt like that. Like the government will actually not let you be that stupid because we have a limit. Our tuition is way cheaper so it's reasonable to put a limit. People here still go and do stupid degrees but the government protects them from their stupidity by letting them be in debt by like max 30-40K. That's still insane for a art degree or whatever but at least the person's life isn't ruined.

People can still get high interest private loans but only really desperate people go for them.

America has no limits on the stupidity of our citizens

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Yeah but I'd still have to ask my parents for 200K.

What do your parents do?

 

[efle]

Haha. Yeah but I love Toronto and this area. Michigan is a nice state though.

Dental we just need the DAT (Canadian version which is super easy, I wrote it with 1 week studying and did well enough) and high grades like 3.9+ which I have.
Yeah I think I would be fine as a dentist. It would be 160K debt (I would probably be able to live at home if I got into my nearest university).

Canada does have PA degrees but I'm not interested in that as I would feel inferior to doctors. (Just a feeling I know I wouldn't be able to get over).

Just the issue of asking my parents for so much money is making me hesitate on DO school.

If you have a 3.9+ what is keeping you out of the Canadian MD system? Too low of an MCAT? Did you study enough for it?

It's a lot to ask and even if they can provide it, you'd have to find a place you wanted to live in America, and even if you did you'd still be burdened by debt levels a lot higher than most. This is the kind of situation where you really have to feel like it's a calling and a lot of sacrifice is worthwhile, which may not be the case if you'd be very happy as a comfortably Canadian dentist/orthodontist/oral surg

 

[hsmooth]

Canada does have PA degrees but I'm not interested in that as I would feel inferior to doctors. (Just a feeling I know I wouldn't be able to get over).
It sounds like you're actually not very interested in medicine itself and moreso into the 'prestige' or 'label' of being a doctorate or professional. If that is the case, there's a good chance you'll never be fully satisfied as a physician and may burn out early in your medical career. So it would not make sense to take on such a huge debt load. Go dental if the DAT was that easy, you've got the grades, and tuition is that much cheaper -- and become some sort of oral surgeon and call it good.

Haha. Yeah but I love Toronto and this area. Michigan is a nice state though.

Dental we just need the DAT (Canadian version which is super easy, I wrote it with 1 week studying and did well enough) and high grades like 3.9+ which I have.
Yeah I think I would be fine as a dentist. It would be 160K debt (I would probably be able to live at home if I got into my nearest university).

Canada does have PA degrees but I'm not interested in that as I would feel inferior to doctors. (Just a feeling I know I wouldn't be able to get over).

Just the issue of asking my parents for so much money is making me hesitate on DO school.