Is a Funded PsyD Still Stigmatized?

[PsyDuck90]

Hello all,

I know there are always a million debates on here regarding the PhD vs PsyD issue. I did a search, and I couldn't find anything directly discussing fully funded PsyD programs.

Essentially, I applied to multiple clinical psych PhD programs this cycle, and 1 PsyD. The PsyD is the only place where I got an interview (I was waitlisted for interview at my top choice program). So, this PsyD has full funding options with a stipend, as well as a pretty heavy research focus (my POI is currently working on a project funded by a government grant and several RAs are funded through the lab grant). The program is housed in a well-established university and only takes cohorts of max 10.

My question is, does the PsyD after someone's name immediately close doors, regardless of the type of program? I know PsyDs have a bad reputation overall, but if the program itself is structured in a way that seems to be very similar to PhDs in its academic and research rigor, would that still be an issue for someone throughout his/her career? I know there isn't necessarily a "right" answer, but I'm curious to see what many of you think in regards to how strong the stigma of a PsyD actually is when working in VAs, AMCs, or any other more coveted setting.

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[psych.meout]

So, this PsyD has full funding options with a stipend

What's a "full funding option?" Do all students receive full coverage of their tuition and fees or do they not?

As to your larger question, I wouldn't say that all PsyDs have bad reputations or that psychologists with PsyDs are inferior to those with PhDs or even that it's impossible to get good training at a PsyD program. The problems with many (but not all, e.g., Rutgers and Baylor) PsyD programs is that they are expensive and that the admissions standards and training outcomes are inconsistent and heterogeneous. It's not the case that there are no good or even great psychologists with PsyDs. The issue is that there's less quality control and wider diversity in the quality of psychologists from a given PsyD program. Those great psychologists from PsyD programs are not great because of their programs, they are great in spite of them. These people would be great psychologists probably regardless of which program they attended.

So, it's not that you can't become a great psychologist with a PsyD or that you're going to be blackballed from job opportunities. It's just that, depending on which PsyD program you attend and what specific training experiences you receive, you may have to spend more of your time proving yourself to get equivalent opportunities for which someone from high quality PhD program (there are some absolutely atrocious PhD programs) gets accepted mostly at face value.

 

[PsyDuck90]

This particular program provides full tuition coverage and a stipend to approximately half of incoming students, depending on funding from year to year. For those that don't get that stipend, they also offer another option of adjuncting for undergrad classes which gives 50% tuition remission and a salary (as long as you already have a masters).

 

[PsyDr]

Short answer: yes

 

[psych.meout]

This particular program provides full tuition coverage and a stipend to approximately half of incoming students, depending on funding from year to year. For those that don't get that stipend, they also offer another option of adjuncting for undergrad classes which gives 50% tuition remission and a salary (as long as you already have a masters).

Then this program is not really fully funded.

Short answer: yes

You pithy bastard!

 

[CatsFan]

No, having PsyD after your name won't immediately close doors. I know of a number of people with PsyDs with good jobs in both VA and AMC settings. PsyD programs, like PhD programs, vary widely in terms of quality and outcomes. There may be more low quality PsyD programs than PhD programs, but what you're describing (small cohorts, heavy research focus, decent funding options) sounds not bad to me. Definitely look into their APPIC (and APA-accredited) internship match rate.

 

[Justanothergrad]

I'm always amazed at how many times we can answer the question about fully funded programs for it to be asked again and again in different ways

No, having PsyD after your name won't immediately close doors. I know of a number of people with PsyDs with good jobs in both VA and AMC settings. PsyD programs, like PhD programs, vary widely in terms of quality and outcomes. There may be more low quality PsyD programs than PhD programs, but what you're describing (small cohorts, heavy research focus, decent funding options) sounds not bad to me. Definitely look into their APPIC (and APA-accredited) internship match rate.

It may not close doors, but people will respond differently to it immediately because so many are utter trash. Good programs / good candidates Can overcome this but it's a real thing

 

[CatsFan]

It may not close doors, but people will respond differently to it immediately because so many are utter trash. Good programs / good candidates Can overcome this but it's a real thing

Possibly. But I still think it depends more on the individual program's reputation.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Possibly. But I still think it depends more on the individual program's reputation.

You have to get past psyD to look that up. And people care more to look that up for psyD than with phd.

So yes, it's stigmatized

 

[CatsFan]

You have to get past psyD to look that up. And people care more to look that up for psyD than with phd.

So yes, it's stigmatized

True, but...

If you're talking about the public's perceptions, they definitely don't know the difference. And if you're talking about people in the field, trashing an application simply because someone has a PsyD without even taking two seconds to look at what program they're coming from is pure laziness and prejudiced. I'm sure you're right that it still happens sometimes, but ugh.

 

[Justanothergrad]

True, but...

If you're talking about the public's perceptions, they definitely don't know the difference. And if you're talking about people in the field, trashing an application simply because someone has a PsyD without even taking two seconds to look at what program they're coming from is pure laziness and prejudiced. I'm sure you're right that it still happens sometimes, but ugh.

Qualified any way you like, the answer is still "yes, as a degree it is stigmatized and for good reason"

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It may not close doors, but people will respond differently to it immediately because so many are utter trash. Good programs / good candidates Can overcome this but it's a real thing

Agreed.

If you have a strong CV it won’t matter a couple/few years out...but expect questions/doubts if you apply to competitive training placements for internship/post-doc and likely for your first job or two out.

I tried to combat the questions/doubts through publishing, being active in APA divisions, and working towards leadership positions. Once out and working it was much less of an issue, but it’s something I was asked about throughout training and my first faculty job.

 

[PhDToBe]

I think it would matter less if your ultimate goal is clinical work, but may matter more if you're interested in a research job (e.g., at a university or AMC). Hopefully your CV would help to overcome that...and there are likely other factors involved, like if the job/internship/postdoc has PsyDs on the hiring committee or previous positive experiences with them.

 

[DSMX]

I agree with PhDToBe... think about your long term career goals. If you hope to work clinically in any setting (even VA or other medical center), a PsyD is fine. But if you want to work in research, or get a job at an academically affiliated medical center, the PsyD might hold you back.

 

[ToneTone]

Some internships have not taken a Psyd student in the past 3 years (maybe ever). So be careful of that, I haven’t gone through postdoc and beyond yet so I can’t speak beyond internship applications. I am a Psyd student and I diversified my site list widely, but got a fair number of interviews and matched to my first choice. However, I had to work pretty hard to get research experience and the training I wanted outside of my school. If I could do it again, I’d go the funded route as now that I’m towards the end I am really sick of being broke.

 

[Sendtrees]

Is it Rutgers? If so, no, not stigmatized.

Look at their APA-approved internship match rates and the post-graduation job stats. That information is more important than the degree--in this case.

 

[CatsFan]

Curious about something related to PsyD stigma—can having a rec letter from a supervisor with a PsyD hurt you for post-docs and jobs? What if the person is boarded?

 

[WisNeuro]

Curious about something related to PsyD stigma—can having a rec letter from a supervisor with a PsyD hurt you for post-docs and jobs? What if the person is boarded?

Depends on where the letter comes from. There are two practices in town, where if a prac student has only done assessment work with them, gets them rejected from interview. ABPP boarding definitely helps for LORs, regardless of whether or not it's a PsyD or PhD.

 

[WisNeuro]

Dude, do you want the PhD or not? Are you stoked about research? If yes, then go with PhD. If not, then maybe a PsyD is a better fit. You are probably way to young to compromise on what you want.

This is not accurate. Hasn't been for quite some time.

 

[Pragma]

This is not accurate. Hasn't been for quite some time.

Yeah isn’t it 75% of PhDs= clinicians or something like that? Been a bit since I’ve looked at the data.

 

[WisNeuro]

Yeah isn’t it 75% of PhDs= clinicians or something like that? Been a bit since I’ve looked at the data.

Something like that. And, I can only imagine that number creeping up as faculty salaries and benefits keep getting gutted in some states. Looking at you, Wisconsin. I would never leave clinical work for academia at this point, it'd be like taking a 25-50% pay cut.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Dude, do you want the PhD or not? Are you stoked about research? If yes, then go with PhD. If not, then maybe a PsyD is a better fit. You are probably way to young to compromise on what you want.

I have two immediate thoughts- one confuses me and the other frustrates me.

1. Is there a right age to compromise on what you value?
2. Why do people keep making this ill-informed statement about PsyD/PhD?

 

[WisNeuro]

2. Why do people keep making this ill-informed statement about PsyD/PhD?

Cognitive dissonance?

 

[RejectClinical]

Hello all,

I know there are always a million debates on here regarding the PhD vs PsyD issue. I did a search, and I couldn't find anything directly discussing fully funded PsyD programs.

Essentially, I applied to multiple clinical psych PhD programs this cycle, and 1 PsyD. The PsyD is the only place where I got an interview (I was waitlisted for interview at my top choice program). So, this PsyD has full funding options with a stipend, as well as a pretty heavy research focus (my POI is currently working on a project funded by a government grant and several RAs are funded through the lab grant). The program is housed in a well-established university and only takes cohorts of max 10.

My question is, does the PsyD after someone's name immediately close doors, regardless of the type of program? I know PsyDs have a bad reputation overall, but if the program itself is structured in a way that seems to be very similar to PhDs in its academic and research rigor, would that still be an issue for someone throughout his/her career? I know there isn't necessarily a "right" answer, but I'm curious to see what many of you think in regards to how strong the stigma of a PsyD actually is when working in VAs, AMCs, or any other more coveted setting.

In short, I feel like you'll always be trying to "prove" yourself (at least in the beginning of your career). Furthermore, as someone who came from a very well-respected PhD program, I think I've been given the benefit of the doubt a lot--which other people from my program echo (so that's the flip-side to the PsyD). Our intern class (though i won't say I'm proud of this) didn't speak too highly of PsyDs. My program frequently bashed the PsyD programs. It isn't to say that all are bad (they're not) or that all psychologists who come from them are bad (they're not). I've met tons of really qualified PsyDs. The problem is that a lot of people's baseline in this field is to initially assume that PsyDs aren't as well trained as PhDs because of a lot of the problems with these programs (high admission rates, low admission standards, less emphasis on research, etc). That, combined with the debt, would make it a no-go for me. EVEN in this terribly competitive climate.

 

[dynamicdog]

I have a Psy.D. from a reputable university based Psy.D. program that is not Rutgers or Baylor. Besides a few internship sites in the area I was applying (yes, I geographically limited myself for internship and it worked out fine) who either explicitly did not take Psy.Ds or just did not in practice, I have not personally felt the degree has closed any doors in terms of career/job opportunities. This may be in part that the area I live has a couple of well established university based Psy.D programs with good local reputations (there are no FSPSs in the area) AND due to the fact that I am not seeking out academic or research based jobs.

You might want to do a little research on the geographical area(s) you might wish to practice. I imagine some areas might be more biased, but in my experience this is not the case, for myself or my Psy.D peers (many of whom have gone into highly competitive sub fields like neuro, forensics, etc.)

 

[PsyDr]

2. Why do people keep making this ill-informed statement about PsyD/PhD?

IMO: Because the system is designed to require it. And it’s a stupid system.

What do you think an interviewer at a fully funded PhD program wants to hear: "Like over 50% of PhD psychology graduates, I'm not going to do research at all once I graduate." ?

They require you to say you're interested in research, regardless of the truth.

 

[Pragma]

I would never leave clinical work for academia at this point, it'd be like taking a 25-50% pay cut.

I could say the inverse! Muhahahahaha!

 

[Justanothergrad]

IMO: Because the system is designed to require it. And it’s a stupid system.

What do you think an interviewer at a fully funded PhD program wants to hear: "Like over 50% of PhD psychology graduates, I'm not going to do research at all once I graduate." ?

They require you to say you're interested in research, regardless of the truth.

Eh, I don't know. I'm not sure the system is designed for it so much as people are choosing to include something into the system that is not required and trying to pretend it is.

I think its how you frame it. If a student tells me "I don't think psychology should ever involve research" I'm going to inform them they should find something that isn't a science to study. If they tell me they don't want to be part of conducting research in their careers, I'm fine with that. Research is still going to be part of their careers by informing practice- it doesn't mean they have to do it. I'm very clear about that in my recruitment efforts / lab website.I am a fairly productive researcher at an R1, but perhaps I'm naive and overly optimistic (I frequently am about people).

I could say the inverse! Muhahahahaha!

Same here. All I can say to no more academia is...."Enjoy working during the summers, suckas" I love the flexibility all around.

 

[Sanman]

I agree with some of what has been said here. It really depends on the program and the goals. I came from a fully funded PsyD program that I chose over a PhD program. I chose it because my career is not academically/university oriented and my funding at the PsyD program was gauranteed for all years whereas the PhD was not. You need to weigh what is important for you. I work at a VAMC in a clinical position and enjoy supervising/ adjunct teaching. The economics and my professional happiness have worked out fine. If you want to work at an R1 or have a top forensic practice, it will affect you. However, these are the edges and program mission and lack of fit affect this as much as PsyD/PhD. Other choices I made in the process affect my life much more than the letters behind my name. This will be true of most people.

My suggestion, figure out the likelihood of funding for the program (how often are students left without funding, how long is your grant funded, etc. ) and outcomes. If they haven't had a grad at a VA or academic institution job, you aren't going to be the exception most likely.

Most of the grads in my cohort and surrounding work at the VA and I see the names floating around on the national listservs. I know a few on staff in medical centers as clinical staff. Programs keep grad info, I get emails annually.

Lastly, weigh closely the opportunity cost of passing on acceptance with likely debt(remember moving/living expenses and factor in tuition and fees for any year that is not a guarantee.) might be worth it and might not depending on the economics.

 

[Parabolas]

As a PsyD student who is currently completing an APA-accredited internship, my experience has been that my degree has not resulted in any noticeable barriers to my success. However, my experience has been somewhat unique.

I attend a program that has a spotty reputation at best. Most people on this forum would call it a "diploma mill," and that would seem to be quite an accurate descriptor based on its stats alone. However, its reputation within the region where it's located is slightly better than its reputation across the country, although it gets complicated. Suffice it to say that it isn't considered a strong program, even among other PsyD programs.

I would say, without a doubt, that most of my PhD peers (who hail from programs all across the country) have received a better education than I did (in terms of coursework). I was not academically challenged by my program and did not learn nearly as much as I should have, and this has necessitated a lot of independent gap-filling. With that said, I had wonderful practicum experiences and nearly all of my clinical supervisors were excellent. The rest of this is basically horn tooting, but I'm trying to illustrate my point here. One of my practica was at an Ivy League-affiliated teaching hospital and the others were at well-respected institutions with high name recognition as well. My internship is at a well-respected site, and in the fall I'll be starting a very competitive postdoc at a second Ivy League-affiliated teaching hospital. It was my dream postdoc, and it's likely to lead to a full-time position (crossing fingers). In total, I received four interview invites from two different Ivy League hospitals and several more from other high quality sites. Not once has my degree ever come up in any interview, and I have never experienced an interviewer as being wary as a result of my degree. So, it certainly is possible to make it to even the most historically "snooty" hospitals with a PsyD, and even with a PsyD from a less-than-reputable program.

With that said, it's important to note that my cohort is absolutely ginormous, and that I've been at the top in terms of how well I've done as an applicant. Many/most of my peers completed each of their clinical placements at institutions with virtually no name recognition, some of which were quite poor training sites. Some/many of them did not match to an accredited internship and are not finding postdocs. They will graduate from an institution with a generally poor reputation and with relatively unknown training sites on their CV, and this will be a big problem for them. To be perfectly honest, all else being equal, I would be less likely to refer a patient or friend to a clinician who went to my program than to one who did not, and that makes me sad. The point I'm trying to make here is that my experience has been unusual, and that most of my PsyD comrades are having a hard time.

So, what I want to leave you with is this: although, in general, people will judge you more favorably if you have a PhD, you are not fully excluded from much of anything solely because you have a PsyD (the most notable exception being academic/research positions). While it's likely that, at some point, you will indeed encounter a prospective employer/field placement supervisor who will make a negative judgment about you because of your degree (and that this may very well cost you an interview), you're far more likely to encounter people who will judge you based only on your clinical experiences, references, interviewing skills, etc. In fact, I had a supervisor once tell me that when they received my application, they were impressed by the fact that I had managed to get myself into all of these great training opportunities despite not going to a strong program. So, if a particular PsyD program has a good reputation and has connections to quality practica/externships, and you feel that you will be able to push yourself to the top of your cohort, then you'll be just fine.

 

[PsychedUp313]

Do you mind saying which PsyD program?

 

[Parabolas]

Do you mind saying which PsyD program?

I'm hesitant to reveal it publicly since someone who knows me would likely be able to make the connection, but I will PM it to you and others who are interested.

 

[qwerty729]

I'm hesitant to reveal it publicly since someone who knows me would likely be able to make the connection, but I will PM it to you and others who are interested.

I would be interested in knowing what school that is too, not sure how to PM on here tho..

 

[memiller]

I have a Psy.D. from a reputable university based Psy.D. program that is not Rutgers or Baylor. Besides a few internship sites in the area I was applying (yes, I geographically limited myself for internship and it worked out fine) who either explicitly did not take Psy.Ds or just did not in practice, I have not personally felt the degree has closed any doors in terms of career/job opportunities. This may be in part that the area I live has a couple of well established university based Psy.D programs with good local reputations (there are no FSPSs in the area) AND due to the fact that I am not seeking out academic or research based jobs.

You might want to do a little research on the geographical area(s) you might wish to practice. I imagine some areas might be more biased, but in my experience this is not the case, for myself or my Psy.D peers (many of whom have gone into highly competitive sub fields like neuro, forensics, etc.)

Where do you attend? I am applying to PsyD programs currently and could use some advice for quality programs!

 

[Mama Bear]

I can only imagine that number creeping up as faculty salaries and benefits keep getting gutted in some states. Looking at you, Wisconsin.

Preach.

 

[Sanman]

Holy zombie thread, Batman!