Is affirmative action in the admission process about to end?

[surfstarj]

I do not understand what your argument is then. You are basically saying that you are against URM status because it does not solve anything in your eyes (which is definitely debatable). You have provided no other alternative, no other solution. If AA/URM status were removed and the racial demographics completely changed, you would say that this is a solution? Having only students of caucasian descent and asian descent is the likely outcome of such a situation. As I said before, unless society as a whole is willing to correct all of the injustices that are taking place at this point in time, you cannot expect an injustice that is helping those who have been at a social disadvantage to be rescinded.

I was countering your conjecture that URM/non-URM don't compete for seats.

Whether they do or not doesn't change my real stance on the program which is we need to change the root causes. When are we going to fix the schools? When are we going to push out the ****e role models and lift up the good?

as far as this

EDIT: AAHAHAHAHAHA @ the bold.

I do what I can.

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[flaahless]

D**n so many times I lost count but you know what a lot of that comes along with all the racial profiling going on in Arizona right this minute.

Wow G, that just ruined my whole mood right now. I get so frustrated everytime I think of it. That entire situation is effing ridiculous.

 

[BlackDr2b]

Schools could designate seats for individuals that agree to serve in poor communities if they truly wanted to.

They could do that. But then somebody would have a problem with that or somebody would agree to that, take the seat and then not go anywhere near the underserved. And I am sure that there are URM's who don't go back to the underserved but we know for the most part it is the URM's who do go back. So then it starts to look like schools are saving eats for URM's. This is a nasty little cycle, either way it goes, somebody is getting "cheated".

 

[BlackDr2b]

Wow G, that just ruined my whole mood right now. I get so frustrated everytime I think of it. That entire situation is effing ridiculous.

Wassup Flaahless. What is the deal in AZ?

 

[WinterLights]

I was countering your conjecture that URM/non-URM don't compete for seats.

Whether they do or not doesn't change my real stance on the program which is we need to change the root causes. When are we going to fix the schools? When are we going to push out the ****e role models and lift up the good?

as far as this

I do what I can.

If you accept the fact that URMs and non-URMs are accepted at roughly the same percentages every year (around 16% for URM, 80% non-URM), then how does it not follow that roughly a set amount of each demographic is going to be receiving seats? The only argument that you can make is that it is unfair for a greater percentage of (statistically) unqualified URM's to be taken. And if you want non-URM's to take more URM seats, then that is you own personal right. However I do not agree with this, nor do I believe that it is fair. I think that 80% for non-URM's and 16% for URM's is at least a reasonable amount. Once the social playing field is legitimately level between all people, then we can start making grievances when a certain group of people get in (on the average) with lower stats.

 

[parto123]

Check out the below quote which discusses the journal of blacks in higher education. Does anybody have access to these articles? I cant find the full articles online. The studies are from very strong supporters of AA.

The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education estimated that if the top 10 highest-ranking medical schools in the nation dismantled their affirmative action policies and replaced them with strict MCAT cut-off scores, only 7 Black students would meet entrance requirements.[4] Another study revealed that under admissions in which MCAT scores are of primary importance, the percentage of Blacks enrolled at the 25 most selective medical schools would drop from 10% to 1%.[5] Derek Bok, former president of Harvard University, cautioned against this phenomenon: "The most dramatic effects in eliminating affirmative action would be on medical and law schools because the more selective the institution, the greater the impact, and nothing is more selective than medical school and law schools."

4. "White Coats, White Faces: Calculating the Impact on Black Admissions to Medical School If Affirmative Action Were Eliminated." Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, Autumn 1997, pp. 15-17.
5. "Why a Nationwide Ban on Race-Conscious Admissions Will Sharply Curtail Black Enrollments at the Nation's Highest-Ranked Medical Schools." Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, Spring 1999, pp. 22-25.

 

[WinterLights]

They could do that. But then somebody would have a problem with that or somebody would agree to that, take the seat and then not go anywhere near the underserved. And I am sure that there are URM's who don't go back to the underserved but we know for the most part it is the URM's who do go back. So then it starts to look like schools are saving eats for URM's. This is a nasty little cycle, either way it goes, somebody is getting "cheated".

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree that it should be a reason for accepting URM's into medical school. URM's should be accepted in order to make sure the profession some-what reflects the phenotypic make-up of the country. Do not confuse what I just said with a belief that medicine should have equivalent amounts of doctors from each culture. That is another discussion for another place and time.

 

[WinterLights]

Check out the below quote which discusses the journal of blacks in higher education. Does anybody have access to these articles? I cant find the full articles online. The studies are from very strong supporters of AA.

That is a very uncomfortable thought. And people say that this will somehow combat racism and prejudice? No it will not. It will only serve to further the disparity between the elite majority and a relatively non-elite minority.

 

[flaahless]

Wassup Flaahless. What is the deal in AZ?

A ton of racism against mexican americans.

 

[gabem480]

It was not too long ago I was coming home from a day of work and I was on the freeway when a cop who was behind me pulled up beside me then slowed down to get behind me and pulled me over he didnt even come over to the car till he made sure he had his weapon in his hand it is disgusting. I am a hard working Mexican-American I do nothing but go to work go to school and chill with my family but because the color of my skin I am constantly harassed.

 

[gabem480]

The above in my opinion goes to show oppression may never end.

 

[flaahless]

Check out the below quote which discusses the journal of blacks in higher education. Does anybody have access to these articles? I cant find the full articles online. The studies are from very strong supporters of AA.

Parto, G, forreal, please do research or take a logic course or do something where you have to critically analyze data.

The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education estimated that if the top 10 highest-ranking medical schools in the nation dismantled their affirmative action policies and replaced them with strict MCAT cut-off scores, only 7 Black students would meet entrance requirements.

Only 7, come on man. Something does NOT sound right. This leads me to ask how "strict" are the MCAT cutoffs? Are we talking 30s? because i'm sure that more than 7 African Americans scored higher than 30? Raise the number, 35s? I know more than 7 African americans scored higher than 35. Are we talking about a cutoffs in specific sections, like... an 11 in VR?

So another question is, why didn't they mention the MCAT cutoff they were talking about rather than vaguely saying strict MCAT cuttoffs. Probably because the raw numbers weren't as scary and they had to manipulate the language to get their publication? Maybe. Who knows.

 

[BlackDr2b]

It was not too long ago I was coming home from a day of work and I was on the freeway when a cop who was behind me pulled up beside me then slowed down to get behind me and pulled me over he didnt even come over to the car till he made sure he had his weapon in his hand it is disgusting. I am a hard working Mexican-American I do nothing but go to work go to school and chill with my family but because the color of my skin I am constantly harassed.

I understand what you are talking about gabem. When I was back at home in LA, I was stopped by two cars, guns drawn on me, put on the hood of the squad car, and my entire car searched for nothing. Of course they thought I was a gang member because of my tinted windows, that's what he told me. It is a constant struggle that is a long way from being over.

 

[gabem480]

Caucasians have had many advantages because of race so why is it one time that a urm has this advantage it's a problem? When it comes to the question of race on an amcas app what am I supposed to do leave it blank because other pre-meds might look at me different? I am proud of my race regardless what damage this country inflicts on it. It wouldn't make a difference anyway how is anybody going to know if I applied urm or not they will always assume which is judgemental anyways so what have I got to lose.

 

[flaahless]

It was not too long ago I was coming home from a day of work and I was on the freeway when a cop who was behind me pulled up beside me then slowed down to get behind me and pulled me over he didnt even come over to the car till he made sure he had his weapon in his hand it is disgusting. I am a hard working Mexican-American I do nothing but go to work go to school and chill with my family but because the color of my skin I am constantly harassed.

Ridiculous.

I was pulled over right in front of my college campus. Mind you, I was the passenger, the officer walked up, looked at the driver who was caucasian, drew his weapon and shouted, "Passenger put your hands where I can see them or you will be shot!" Threaten to shoot me if I finished robbing a Wal Mart, but don't threaten to shoot the PASSENGER, who is obviously a college student and not a criminal or anyone worthy of such treatment. Needless to say, that didn't go over too well with me. I got out the car pissed off, and then bam, barrel to my forehead. Crazy.

Funny thing is, 5 minutes earlier, a different police officer handcuffed me, searched me, threw my wallet on the ground because I "approached my friends in a threatening manner." In other words, he thought I was a thug.

I feel your struggle and truly sympathize with what you are dealing with. Hang in there.

 

[surfstarj]

Wassup Flaahless. What is the deal in AZ?

This is NOT a thread for that. Please and thank you.

 

[flaahless]

Caucasians have had many advantages because of race so why is it one time that a urm has this advantage it's a problem? When it comes to the question of race on an amcas app what am I supposed to do leave it blank because other pre-meds might look at me different? I am proud of my race regardless what damage this country inflicts on it. It wouldn't make a difference anyway how is anybody going to know if I applied urm or not they will always assume which is judgemental anyways so what have I got to lose.

That's real talk.

 

[gabem480]

I understand what you are talking about gabem. When I was back at home in LA, I was stopped by two cars, guns drawn on me, put on the hood of the squad car, and my entire car searched for nothing. Of course they thought I was a gang member because of my tinted windows, that's what he told me. It is a constant struggle that is a long way from being over.

It is what it is but my problem is that regardless what we go through its never enough. My car has been searched many times ripped apart a lot to the point where the damages came out of my pocket. We have police here who drive through neighborhoods looking for people of color when I talk about racial profiling it's in a major way here.

 

[BlackDr2b]

This is NOT a thread for that. Please and thank you.

Come on Surfstarj, it was just a question. He answered it and we moved on. Don't pull that homie.

 

[WinterLights]

It is what it is but my problem is that regardless what we go through its never enough. My car has been searched many times ripped apart a lot to the point where the damages came out of my pocket. We have police here who drive through neighborhoods looking for people of color when I talk about racial profiling it's in a major way here.

I am glad that I do not live in a place like this.

 

[parto123]

So another question is, why didn't they mention the MCAT cutoff they were talking about rather than vaguely saying strict MCAT cuttoffs. Probably because the raw numbers weren't as scary and they had to manipulate the language to get their publication? Maybe. Who knows.

Well, the article probably discusses it in more detail, but i dont have access to the article. But why would the journal of blacks in higher ed want to manipulate the language? They are very strong proponents of AA. If it was some article by a racist academic, I can see where the skepticism is coming from, but why would so many academics and professional organizations who support the cause be slanting their data?

 

[BlackDr2b]

It is what it is but my problem is that regardless what we go through its never enough. My car has been searched many times ripped apart a lot to the point where the damages came out of my pocket. We have police here who drive through neighborhoods looking for people of color when I talk about racial profiling it's in a major way here.

Wow! Just continue to keep our head up and stay strong and continue to stay in the fight!

 

[surfstarj]

The only argument that you can make is that it is unfair for a greater percentage of (statistically) unqualified URM's to be taken.

That IS the only argument I made.

And if you want non-URM's to take more URM seats, then that is you own personal right. However I do not agree with this, nor do I believe that it is fair.

I don't want that, I think you're trying to pin that on me and it's just not there. However, you have to acknowledge the above logic...without AA, fewer under-qualified URMs getting in = fewer URMs getting in overall.

I think that 80% for non-URM's and 16% for URM's is at least a reasonable amount. Once the social playing field is legitimately level between all people, then we can start making grievances when a certain group of people get in (on the average) with lower stats.

That's what I've been saying all along. My real question is when are we going to start moving in that direction instead of just bandaging it and pretending like we're fixing it with AA when we're not.

 

[flaahless]

Well, the article probably discusses it in more detail, but i dont have access to the article. But why would the journal of blacks in higher ed want to manipulate the language? They are very strong proponents of AA. If it was some article by a racist academic, I can see where the skepticism is coming from, but why would so many academics and professional organizations who support the cause be slanting their data?

Maybe to make it more dramatic so people would vote for AA. Who knows. But that article is really sketchy man. I'm serious.

 

[surfstarj]

I am proud of my race regardless what damage this country inflicts on it. It

OK but when do we all start acknowledging the painful truths about our own people? There are people who are in your race, my race, every race that are still contributing to negative stereotypes. It's not solely put on them.

Do you think I'm proud of the white trash, ignorant people who create and sustain the trailer park, racist, wont-vote-for-obama-cuz-hes-black people? Sadly, there are usually a slim but noticeable slice of the demographic that prevents the ****ty stereotypes from being dispelled. In no way does that mean that any of us should be abused without cause because of skin color. That's fcuked up. But until we can all push out the negative by making it unacceptable, stereotypes will persist.

 

[gabem480]

I am glad that I do not live in a place like this.

I love Arizona just not the system that makes up its government or jails. I was thrown into county jail for a while because I questioned a cop on his reasoning for questioning me and I brought up the race issue he called it resisting arrest when in truth I was pretty calm thats how bad it is here not to mention sheriff joe arpaio look him up i'm sure you will see what I mean.

 

[WinterLights]

That IS the only argument I made.




I don't want that, I think you're trying to pin that on me and it's just not there. However, you have to acknowledge the above logic...without AA, fewer under-qualified URMs getting in = fewer URMs getting in overall.



That's what I've been saying all along. My real question is when are we going to start moving in that direction instead of just bandaging it and pretending like we're fixing it with AA when we're not.

So essentially we agree for the most part.

I think that very few people believe that AA is fixing that which was done in the past and is still being done today. That being said, it does help in someways; even if to a minimal degree. If you are against URM status, then what specifically do you propose? How do we maintain a representative picture of our society in all professions and fields? There are few practical ways to do this. People, for the most part, will be dissatisfied with any changes made to the social system--especially those in power. Many people would like to see the privileged remain that way; and the poor remain poor. Dramatic changes are necessary, but they are almost impossible to carry out in this world unfortunately.

 

[WinterLights]

OK but when do we all start acknowledging the painful truths about our own people? There are people who are in your race, my race, every race that are still contributing to negative stereotypes. It's not solely put on them.

Do you think I'm proud of the white trash, ignorant people who create and sustain the trailer park, racist, wont-vote-for-obama-cuz-hes-black people? Sadly, there are usually a slim but noticeable slice of the demographic that prevents the ****ty stereotypes from being dispelled. In no way does that mean that any of us should be abused without cause because of skin color. That's fcuked up. But until we can all push out the negative by making it unacceptable, stereotypes will persist.

I agree with what you said, but I do not think that gabem meant what you thought that he meant. He essentially meant that he is not ashamed to hide who he is; no one should be. However I do not think that he was saying that people who look like him or claim the same ancestry should all be proud of everything that they do or say. And also, no single individual can speak for everyone--although some ignorant people might like to think so.

 

[gabem480]

OK but when do we all start acknowledging the painful truths about our own people? There are people who are in your race, my race, every race that are still contributing to negative stereotypes. It's not solely put on them.

Do you think I'm proud of the white trash, ignorant people who create and sustain the trailer park, racist, wont-vote-for-obama-cuz-hes-black people? Sadly, there are usually a slim but noticeable slice of the demographic that prevents the ****ty stereotypes from being dispelled. In no way does that mean that any of us should be abused without cause because of skin color. That's fcuked up. But until we can all push out the negative by making it unacceptable, stereotypes will persist.

My point is all in all there is not even a close comparison of the injustices that we as minorities have had to accept and it is still the same today there is no way that if I am caucasian I get pulled over by a cop looking to pass or as a matter of fact most of the issues I have had with the system ever happen it just isnt feasible. All races do have their outcasts but no way have caucasians ever been persecuted like minorities. Truth be they never will be.

 

[TehDoc]

Wow, living a daily life in Socal/LA area sounds like you are in danger as a minority by the people who are there to protect. Can't say SF/Oakland is the same. Anyway living as a minority, there will never be equality among different ethnicities.

 

[gabem480]

I agree with what you said, but I do not think that gabem meant what you thought that he meant. He essentially meant that he is not ashamed to hide who he is; no one should be. However I do not think that he was saying that people who look like him or claim the same ancestry should all be proud of everything that they do or say. And also, no single individual can speak for everyone--although some ignorant people might like to think so.

No way am I saying that there are not any minorities who have shamed themselves but that being said they will not persuade my decision to be proud of my race. I myself do things that I am not always proud of but I dont expect my decisions to change another Mexican-American persons feelings of the race.

 

[surfstarj]

So essentially we agree for the most part.

I think that very few people believe that AA is fixing that which was done in the past and is still being done today. That being said, it does help in someways; even if to a minimal degree. If you are against URM status, then what specifically do you propose? How do we maintain a representative picture of our society in all professions and fields? There are few practical ways to do this. People, for the most part, will be dissatisfied with any changes made to the social system--especially those in power. Many people would like to see the privileged remain that way; and the poor remain poor. Dramatic changes are necessary, but they are almost impossible to carry out in this world unfortunately.

I'm not against URM status. I just wish we were at a point where we didn't need to have it. I have a better vision of/for this country. Let me tell you, speaking of Barack, I need him to be elected. I need him to be able to make people believe that change is coming. I think most people see too many obstacles to fixing this country and so they don't even try. This, itself is the biggest obstacle! We need into elementary, middle and high schools to show kids it's possible no matter what you have to face. We need to make sure there are enough capable teachers for everyone, not just the people who can afford it, for starters. I personally know I'm going to work in public health to try to eliminate as many of the disparities there as I humanly am humanly able.

 

[WinterLights]

Wow, living a daily life in Socal/LA area sounds like you are in danger as a minority by the people who are there to protect. Can't say SF/Oakland is the same. Anyway living as a minority, there will never be equality among different ethnicities.

I doubt that what you said is true. There will come a time where human beings will either accept that they are all the same; or a major conflict will arise and result in our extinction. I believe that logic will eventually prevail over stupidity, misinformation, and a general lack of intelligence.

 

[WinterLights]

I'm not against URM status. I just wish we were at a point where we didn't need to have it. I have a better vision of/for this country. Let me tell you, speaking of Barack, I need him to be elected. I need him to be able to make people believe that change is coming. I think most people see too many obstacles to fixing this country and so they don't even try. This, itself is the biggest obstacle! We need into elementary, middle and high schools to show kids it's possible no matter what you have to face. We need to make sure there are enough capable teachers for everyone, not just the people who can afford it, for starters. I personally know I'm going to work in public health to try to eliminate as many of the disparities there as I humanly am humanly able.

You and I share the same vision. I have that vision for the world, for humanity. Not just for the United States. Unfortunately, we are not living in a time where such idealizations are a reality. I am one that clearly believes that we should pursue other means for arriving at the desired goal, but we cannot ignore the immediate effects that removing certain policies would have. A ground-up approach honestly must be used. Removing AA would be one of the last things that I believe will and should be addressed.

 

[surfstarj]

My point is all in all there is not even a close comparison of the injustices that we as minorities have had to accept and it is still the same today there is no way that if I am caucasian I get pulled over by a cop looking to pass or as a matter of fact most of the issues I have had with the system ever happen it just isnt feasible. All races do have their outcasts but no way have caucasians ever been persecuted like minorities. Truth be they never will be.

But i never disagreed with you on that point. Racial profiling is out of control! But I don't agree with you about no caucasians ever being persecuted...it's only true if you don't include all the "wops" "guineas" "kikes" "micks," to name a few, that have suffered in the past here. Not even to mention religious persecution (to use your word) that all races face. For whatever reason, it seems like a demented human need to target one group or another at all times.

 

[gabem480]

The URM thing will be an issue to many majority students for time to come until they accept that we have dealt with the injustice the persecution the struggle that comes along with the race that we represent and there is no way we will ever be ashamed to represent it. Peace I'm out.

 

[gabem480]

But i never disagreed with you on that point. Racial profiling is out of control! But I don't agree with you about no caucasians ever being persecuted...it's only true if you don't include all the "wops" "guineas" "kikes" "micks," to name a few, that have suffered in the past here. Not even to mention religious persecution (to use your word) that all races face. For whatever reason, it seems like a demented human need to target one group or another at all times.

What I said the injustice caucasians have been through is no where near the injustice or persecution we as minorities have had to deal with for centuries.

 

[BlackDr2b]

I doubt that what you said is true. There will come a time where human beings will either accept that they are all the same; or a major conflict will arise and result in our extinction. I believe that logic will eventually prevail over stupidity, misinformation, and a general lack of intelligence.

I hope for change to happen. But I don't know, there a bunch of silly people in the world who refuse to change and they give it to their kids and so on and so on.

 

[flaahless]

Wow, living a daily life in Socal/LA area sounds like you are in danger as a minority by the people who are there to protect. Can't say SF/Oakland is the same. Anyway living as a minority, there will never be equality among different ethnicities.

Man, real talk. That's why I decided to leave. The danger is ubiquitous. The police profile way too much. Haha, my suitemate freshman year joined the LBPD 2 years ago. We went out with a group of friends and hit up Dennys afterwards. He tells me, "Yo Bob, I saw you driving by Poly the other day. No offense, but I would have pulled you over if I didn't recognize you."

And the police really aren't the worst part of it. The worst part is when I get asked the deadly, unanswerable question, "You bang?" You can't answer that. If you say yes it's curtains. You say no, well you'll be robbed and possibly left alive if they like you. All you can do is swing, run and pray.

Hopefully AA will help to reecruit more physicians and show these kids that there are more opportunities out there. Hopefully, more kids will follow their dreams and inspire others to curtail the negative perceptions that fuel racial profiling. Maybe I'm too idealistic, but dammit man, the alternative is hell.

 

[surfstarj]

Perhaps more interracial dating is called for. Produce good looking offspring while confusing admissions committees everywhere!

 

[surfstarj]

What I said the injustice caucasians have been through is no where near the injustice or persecution we as minorities have had to deal with for centuries.

World history is your friend. Oppressed peoples come in every color. And have you been alive, personally, for centuries? We do not belong to our race's past if we are to have any future at all.

 

[tncekm]

But i never disagreed with you on that point. Racial profiling is out of control! But I don't agree with you about no caucasians ever being persecuted...it's only true if you don't include all the "wops" "guineas" "kikes" "micks," to name a few, that have suffered in the past here. Not even to mention religious persecution (to use your word) that all races face. For whatever reason, it seems like a demented human need to target one group or another at all times.

Yeah, that's a totally ridiculous statement that person made. Whites of all kinds have been persecuted. This ranges from a global to a regional level, within any and all civilizations past and present. White have even been part of the slave trade. The irish were used as well as the africans in sugar plantations, unfortunately they didn't have the disease resistance that the africans did so the africans were preferred. So, to say whites have never been persecuted is total ignorance. Whites are fleeing south africa right now to save their lives.

I unsubscribed from this thread for a reason, so I'll do it again. I just can't stand these conversations. They're so unproductive. All that ends up happening is people sling mud, say ignorant and uninformed things, and when a sensitive subject is touched, the "racism" word is thrown around.

*sigh*

And sadly, I don't see this changing anytime in the future. In the US we praise our "multiculturalism". Its great, to an extent, but in reality I think we've got too much of a good thing right now, b/c we've got major culture clash going on and people just aren't understanding each other.

Okay, unsubscribed again.

 

[WinterLights]

Yeah, that's a totally ridiculous statement that person made. Whites of all kinds have been persecuted. This ranges from a global to a regional level, within any and all civilizations past and present. White have even been part of the slave trade. The irish were used before the africans, unfortunately they didn't have the disease resistance that the africans did so the africans were preferred. To say otherwise is total ignorance.

I unsubscribed from this thread for a reason, so I'll do it again. I just can't stand these conversations. They're so unproductive. All that ends up happening is people sling mud, and when a sensitive subject is touched, the "racism" word is thrown around.

*sigh*

And sadly, I don't see this changing anytime in the future. In the US we praise our "multiculturalism". Its great, to an extent, but in reality I think we've got too much of a good thing right now, b/c we've got major culture clash going on and people just aren't understanding each other.

Okay, unsubscribed again.

Did you even read the last two pages of this thread? This has certainly been a productive discussion for the most part. I suppose that generalizations only give rise to more generalizations though.

 

[flaahless]

World history is your friend. Oppressed peoples come in every color. And have you been alive, personally, for centuries? We do not belong to our race's past if we are to have any future at all.

Word. Though racism is oppressive, oppression isn't racist.

 

[tncekm]

Did you even read the last two pages of this thread? This has certainly been a productive discussion for the most part. I suppose that generalizations only give rise to more generalizations though.

No, I forgot which thread I was viewing (saw it in the "New Posts" section), just saw a post and responded to it. I have no intentions of reading the last two pages.

I'm sure its been more productive than normal, but forgive me for not having high hopes I'm actually embarrassed to think that I"ve probably participated in hundreds of these threads across various boards only to ALWAYS come to the same conclusion: zip is accomplished (although the mud slinging stops, everyone agrees to disagree, and the thread goes away until another like it is born).

 

[flaahless]

Yeah, that's a totally ridiculous statement that person made. Whites of all kinds have been persecuted. This ranges from a global to a regional level, within any and all civilizations past and present. White have even been part of the slave trade. The irish were used as well as the africans in sugar plantations, unfortunately they didn't have the disease resistance that the africans did so the africans were preferred. So, to say whites have never been persecuted is total ignorance. Whites are fleeing south africa right now to save their lives.

I unsubscribed from this thread for a reason, so I'll do it again. I just can't stand these conversations. They're so unproductive. All that ends up happening is people sling mud, say ignorant and uninformed things, and when a sensitive subject is touched, the "racism" word is thrown around.

*sigh*

And sadly, I don't see this changing anytime in the future. In the US we praise our "multiculturalism". Its great, to an extent, but in reality I think we've got too much of a good thing right now, b/c we've got major culture clash going on and people just aren't understanding each other.

Okay, unsubscribed again.

This has actually been a really good thread. Honestly, I'm impressed. Of course there is going to be dumb stuff said by everyone, we're all human. But the mudslinging has been kept to a minimum and the debating has really shined. Kudos to all involved.

 

[WinterLights]

No, I forgot which thread I was viewing (saw it in the "New Posts" section), just saw a post and responded to it. I have no intentions of reading the last two pages.

that is fine, I just do not know why you would come into this thread and call this discussion unproductive if you haven't even read much of what has been discussed. That seems to be unproductive.

EDIT: I just saw what you wrote in your edit. Something is only accomplished when you come into the discussion with an open mind. If you just come in here in hopes of presenting your points and leaving, then that is your loss. I personally have listened to what people have said, and I take their perspectives and try to see things as they do. I never claim to be correct on anything, and I am constantly refining my perceptions based on discussions like the one seen in this thread.

 

[tncekm]

This has actually been a really good thread. Honestly, I'm impressed. Of course there is going to be dumb stuff said by everyone, we're all human. But the mudslinging has been kept to a minimum and the debating has really shined. Kudos to all involved.

Well then, hopefully we'll all run for political office and someone can finally get something done then

/official unsubscribe "now"

 

[surfstarj]

Word. Though racism is oppressive, oppression isn't racist.

Did you take that from somewhere or should i quote YOU on it.

 

[tncekm]

that is fine, I just do not know why you would come into this thread and call this discussion unproductive if you haven't even read much of what has been discussed. That seems to be unproductive.

I didn't say "this thread specifically" was unproductive. I didn't read the last few pages. I saw "these threads" (generalizing given my experience with countless threads just like it) are "always so unproductive".