Is affirmative action in the admission process about to end?

[WinterLights]

I was not aware that certain seats were reserved for each demographic, nor have I ever seen proof of that. But again, it could be true, and if it is, then there IS no reason for anyone to complain if it isn't going to affect their chances.

As for what you said regarding my post being conjecture, did you not read the sentence right after? I said its purely opinion, and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Anyways, theres no point in arguing, but always good to have a healthy debate . In the end, all this is not going to matter. What's going to matter is how good of a doctor we are, and how much we helped served society.

Best of luck to all applicants.

Roughly the same number of URM and non-URM students are accepted every year. Does this not imply that the total number of seats for URM and non-URM students are roughly the same each year?

And in regards to the last part of your post: exactly.

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[parto123]

Roughly the same number of URM and non-URM students are accepted every year. Does this not imply that the total number of seats for URM and non-URM students are roughly the same each year?

And in regards to the last part of your post: exactly.

Youre right that schools probably do reserve spots for URMS, but these reserved spots dont serve as a cap on URM students. It isnt like the jewish quotas from several decades ago that put a limit on jewish students, despite them have higher scores than most admitted applicants.

The reason it can be said that URM students are at an advantage is because if a URM and non URM student both applied with the same exact numbers, the black student would be significantly more likely to be accepted. In the law school AA case, there was an admissions grid provided into evidence that showed how with a certain number combination (I think I was 157 LSAT/3.3 gpa) 48 of 49 black applicants were accepted while only 3 of 110 whites were accepted.

 

[surfstarj]

No, its not stereotypical to assume that most people who goto medical school are well off compared to the general population. It's true, and you can look it up.

true.

First, if you are white/asian/indian and disadvantaged, you do get an advantage because you can file for economically disadvantaged which colleges look at in a similar manner to URM.

My anecdotal evidence on this is no, it's not on par with urm. In fact, on the interviews I did receive, they were surprised that a "white" girl would be check disadvantaged, actually, before even hearing the circumstances. I had a 35R MCAT and a gpa probably a standard dev lower than average for the schools that I applied to (~3.4 cum) and got a large # of pre-interview rejections. Yes, stats are not the only things there are, but without meeting me, how would they know? URMs with similar stats would be more likely to be granted the interview and given the chance to show their personalities in an interview.


And no, I'm not trying to equate genocide with slavery but the world was and is full of atrocities still. We can't just continue to let the past dictate the future. I don't think racial equality is going to be "given" to any one group or another by any other group. I don't think African Americans would like for white people to "give" them equality. Same as rich people just giving money to poor people isn't going to end poverty.

So as Flaahless talked about putting oppressed people into positions of power, is that going to make a cultural change on its own? Power is not the answer here. It's irrelevant because without influence over the other people who are starting out like you did, power you have doesn't even make a ripple in the ocean of problems that we are talking about that have lead to the need for AA in the first place. When successful urm role models go back and live in the inner cities, countering negative examples in the community, we'll see change.

Is AA/disadvantaged status going to eliminate the gap in stats? Not at all because we're not doing ANYTHING to fix the schools that left them less prepared for college than their richer counterparts in the first place. Fixing this country's educational system aside for now because that, too, is a fruitless discussion. If the change doesn't come from the root of the problem, the cultural and economic reasons that urm cultures historically have produced fewer doctors, then AA is futile. Why do Asian students tend to outperform all other groups? They have a cultural expectation to perform in school regardless of obstacles. Why can't all groups develop this phenomenon from within?

 

[Lokhtar]

Is AA/disadvantaged status going to eliminate the gap in stats? Not at all because we're not doing ANYTHING to fix the schools that left them less prepared for college than their richer counterparts in the first place.

You're missing the point of medical schools and medical education. The point of medical schools is to improve healthcare access in all communities, and minorities are four times more likely to practice in communities which need better healthcare. The medical school's job is not to accept high GPAs - their job is to accept people who they think will do the most to improve the healthcare in this country. And the best way to do that is to accept a diverse enough class so that after they graduate, a wide variety of populations are served. It's that simple.

 

[WinterLights]

Youre right that schools probably do reserve spots for URMS, but these reserved spots dont serve as a cap on URM students. It isnt like the jewish quotas from several decades ago that put a limit on jewish students, despite them have higher scores than most admitted applicants.

There is essentially a cap on the number of URM students that can be admitted. If the number of an accepted demographic exceeds a certain percentage of the total matriculants, than the group would no longer be considered URM and they then become held to the same standards as non-URM's and compete against other non-URM's.

The reason it can be said that URM students are at an advantage is because if a URM and non URM student both applied with the same exact numbers, the black student would be significantly more likely to be accepted. In the law school AA case, there was an admissions grid provided into evidence that showed how with a certain number combination (I think I was 157 LSAT/3.3 gpa) 48 of 49 black applicants were accepted while only 3 of 110 whites were accepted.

While I understand this logic, I also understand the fact is that there are not a lot of URM students with stats that are high enough to compete with non-URM student stats. There are a number of social reasons for this. It is not merely a random occurrence. Would you prefer the alternative where everyone is held to the same standard and URM students would likely make up only around 5% of total matriculants. I would not. That seems like moving in the wrong direction. This is of course just my opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own.

 

[tiedyeddog]

So since AA exists, I should just get used to the prejudice and disrespectful views of my colleagues? Hahaha, right.

I've got to say I'm surprised this thread is not closed, yet. Flaahless, I've got to give you some respect for not going crazy and just attacking people over the course of this thread.

I don't think AA is anywhere near ending.

 

[WinterLights]

You're missing the point of medical schools and medical education. The point of medical schools is to improve healthcare access in all communities, and minorities are four times more likely to practice in communities which need better healthcare. The medical school's job is not to accept high GPAs - their job is to accept people who they think will do the most to improve the healthcare in this country. And the best way to do that is to accept a diverse enough class so that after they graduate, a wide variety of populations are served. It's that simple.

There are other ways to increase the number of doctors working in under served communities.

 

[surfstarj]

You're missing the point of medical schools and medical education. The point of medical schools is to improve healthcare access in all communities, and minorities are four times more likely to practice in communities which need better healthcare.

But you're missing my point. Just placing doctors to WORK in those communities isn't going to eliminate the disparities in healthcare. I'm talking about creating positive URM role models to live and inspire future generations to change their own cultures and get rid of the reasons these populations are having problems in the first place. By the time AA is a factor, it's almost too late because for every one URM/disadvataged applicant that gets in, even if they do go back, there are 1000's of their cohorts who are perpetuating characteristics of the poor and minorities for whom it is too late.

 

[parto123]

While I understand this logic, I also understand the fact is that there are not a lot of URM students with stats that are high enough to compete with non-URM student stats. There are a number of social reasons for this. It is not merely a random occurrence. Would you prefer the alternative where everyone is held to the same standard and URM students would likely make up only around 5% of total matriculants. I would not. That seems like moving in the wrong direction. This is of course just my opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own.

I don’t oppose AA, especially in medicine. I think its important that there be black doctors. People here have misconstrued my bringing up AAMCs argument (i.e. that without giving racial preferences in admissions most blacks wouldn’t be admitted to med school) to imply that I don’t think there should be blacks in med schools.

 

[WinterLights]

I don’t oppose AA, especially in medicine. I think its important that there be black doctors. People here have misconstrued my bringing up AAMCs argument (i.e. that without giving racial preferences in admissions most blacks wouldn’t be admitted to med school) to imply that I don’t think there should be blacks in med schools.

Also keep in mind that other demographics benefit from URM status, not just people of African descent. The reason that such a demographic is brought up most of the time is because of the fact that people of African descent are often seen as the most divergent minority in America.

 

[gabem480]

Blah Blah Blah this whole urm's are taking over the medical school world is getting old we fight just as hard for what we want that is why we are admitted not because we slacked off all undergrad and out of nowhere decided we want to be doctors there is the same hard work, dedication and passions as all other applicants.

 

[parto123]

You can say all you want about many urm's getting in with low numbers this and that but if you look carefully it's not only some urm's who get in with these numbers but majority applicants too which leads me to believe that the those who say minorities get in with low numbers because they are urm are misinformed. Many medical schools do want a diverse class but who can present proof that they are using AA to achieve this goal?

University admissions officers themselves openly admit using AA to achieve racial diversity. In fact, they fought all the way to the supreme court (or signed briefs) to maintain the right to use racial preferences in admissions. UTexas stated that their black enrollment went down 88% specifically because they were no longer allowed to use AA (state law).

 

[gabem480]

D**N Texas so close to the Mexican border they are some what obligated to practice AA to diversify a class of physicians to care for the Mexicans that enter the country shame on them. NO. O.K. I will open my eyes and see that there are few who do utilize AA to diversify but as I previously stated are you telling me that urm med students only get into med school because of race? Do they not work as hard as the majority? If so what was I wasting my time in class for I could have been home posted up in front of the TV with a cold one. Obviously this is not the case yeah some urm's get in with lower stats but who's to say they will not make as good a physician as the next which points to what I said about just being minority will not get you into school. It's about the whole package if you dont fight for it it won't happen same for me as it is for you.

 

[gabem480]

There were little over 400 Mexican American matriculants out of close to 18,000 matriculants in 07' wheres AA when you need it

 

[bj02454]

I'm a fan of AA. Part of the issue of race and gender discrimination is that throughout history, a psychology of apathy and victimization has set in, which undermines efforts at self-betterment (the idea that "It doesn't matter what I try to do, because those in power will still keep me down"). Until there are role-models showing it is possible to succeed (in terms of equal pay and equal power to the historically dominant population), this sense of victimization will be perpetuated. Once the psychological and race barriers are genuinely down, then there isn't a need. Until that point, there is.

Thats a great sentiment. But, everyone I know who got in who belongs to a minority race was the child of wealthy doctors. Who were immigrants post-slavery in the US. I'm pretty sure that kids who went to private school with private tutors and lives in the suburbs with 1-2 doc or other professional parents weren't held down by the system. All the people I know who deserved AA (single parent, poor, disadvantaged etc) either didn't get in or probably weren't considered since they were white or asian.

 

[LostLost]

If AA is abnegated, there will be 99.9999% asians in med school and some white people

 

[flaahless]

Thats a great sentiment. But, everyone I know who got in who belongs to a minority race was the child of wealthy doctors. Who were immigrants post-slavery in the US. I'm pretty sure that kids who went to private school with private tutors and lives in the suburbs with 1-2 doc or other professional parents weren't held down by the system. All the people I know who deserved AA (single parent, poor, disadvantaged etc) either didn't get in or probably weren't considered since they were white or asian.

Maybe they were considered and still didn't get in. Just becaues they didn't get in, doesn't mean they weren't considered. Maybe the extent of their consideration wasn't enough to get them over the hump.

 

[surfstarj]

There were little over 400 Mexican American matriculants out of close to 18,000 matriculants in 07' wheres AA when you need it

Curious how many Mexican American applicants there were. Maybe a large % of them did get in and there just needs to be more a push for them to get to the point where they can apply.

 

[flaahless]

No one should be disrespectful or prejudiced towards you. That is obviously wrong. And happytograduate did not say that. What he said was that maybe you should understand that some, and only some, people possibly benefited from affirmative action and got accepted at a medical school where they might not have gotten into without the help of AA. How is someone wrong to just question that? You know how cut-throat most med school applicants are.

That's ridiculous. Why should I assume that an urm student got in becaue of AA just because some do? That's like me accusing random caucasian med students of benefitting from legacy status even though it may not apply to them. Both are wrong. I choose to informate before I speculate ~ Lil Wayne. Meaning, unless I have concrete evidence or proof, I won't assume anything of anyone. It's a respect thing. Some people have it, some don't.

 

[surfstarj]

Maybe they were considered and still didn't get in.

OK fine. Again we arrive to the "not just stats" argument but if asian/white applicants with a 3.4/27 are NOT getting interview invitations while a minority with equal stats are, it gives little chance for the things other than stats to be considered. If stats aren't everything than non-urms with what is considered low stats among white/asians should be given equal consideration as urms with what is typically considered average for urm interviewees...because it's not just stats, right? How are we going to know WHICH applicants' stats we can "forgive" in favor of their other attributes if schools interview mostly URMs with low stats and very very very few non-urms with low stats.

 

[surfstarj]

I choose to informate before I speculate ~ Lil Wayne.

Dude, when did Lil Wayne become a model of how we should conduct our lives?

 

[flaahless]

Think of all of the non-anglo (aka not from england circa colonial times in this case) immigrants that have arrived to this country fairly recently in its history. This country IS NOT the country that originated slavery, caused the civil war (which, I'll remind you, half the country fought vehemently to end. GO YANKEES).

Man, AA is not a program designed for the sole purpose to counteracting the negative effects of slavery.

I agree, the country has changed, however, there is still oppression and social, economic, educational and health disparities between the various groups of people in the US. As long as that remains, policies like AA should remain to counteract them.

And I'm not even trying to get into the gritty details of it all, but let me ask you this, how many times have you been handcuffed? Or better yet, how many times have you had a standard issued beretta pressed against your forehead?

Slavery is over, oppression isn't.

 

[flaahless]

Dude, when did Lil Wayne become a model of how we should conduct our lives?

Don't hate on Wayne. He's nice.

Lil Wayne >>> James Watson >>> Dubya

 

[surfstarj]

Don't hate on Wayne. He's nice.

Lil Wayne >>> James Watson >>> Dubya

Well I agree with you there.

 

[flaahless]

OK fine. Again we arrive to the "not just stats" argument but if asian/white applicants with a 3.4/27 are NOT getting interview invitations while a minority with equal stats are, it gives little chance for the things other than stats to be considered. If stats aren't everything than non-urms with what is considered low stats among white/asians should be given equal consideration as urms with what is typically considered average for urm interviewees...because it's not just stats, right? How are we going to know WHICH applicants' stats we can "forgive" in favor of their other attributes if schools interview mostly URMs with low stats and very very very few non-urms with low stats.

Anecdotal conjecture. If the avg. is 3.5/30... And I'll even call it a 3.6/32 for the pundits out there, that means half the people had higher numbers, half had lower. The lower half is not made up entirely of urms. There are some caucaisians and asians in there too believe it or not, and quite a few since they represent probably 75% of the applicant pool. I don't feel like checking AAMC.

And that's matriculant data, the numbers for interviews are even higher.

 

[flaahless]

Even though they have a lower rate of acceptance than non-URM's, many people have posted the AAMC source saying the average GPA and MCAT of matriculants is lower than the national average. I'm not saying I am anything special, because believe me, I'm not, but doesn't this stat sort of show the advantage?

As for the non-URM economic background also taken into account, I'm pretty sure it's not as much as the advantage a URM would have. Again, I have no sources, this is just my opinion. So take it with a grain of salt.

For the record, believe it or not, I am for AA. I think it's important to have diversity in the medical field.

Informate before you speculate!

 

[surfstarj]

Man, AA is not a program designed for the sole purpose to counteracting the negative effects of slavery.

I agree, the country has changed, however, there is still oppression and social, economic, educational and health disparities between the various groups of people in the US. As long as that remains, policies like AA should remain to counteract them.

But AA is not going to help end oppression and may perpetuate it e.g. people will continue to assume minority doctors/lawyers etc are undeserving, no EFFECTIVE measure at ending the factors that necessitate AA need to be taken while we have AA and can still pretend like it's working. See my other 10 or so posts. And no I have never had a Beretta pressed against my forehead but how is AA going to eliminate racial profiling?

 

[WinterLights]

OK fine. Again we arrive to the "not just stats" argument but if asian/white applicants with a 3.4/27 are NOT getting interview invitations while a minority with equal stats are, it gives little chance for the things other than stats to be considered. If stats aren't everything than non-urms with what is considered low stats among white/asians should be given equal consideration as urms with what is typically considered average for urm interviewees...because it's not just stats, right? How are we going to know WHICH applicants' stats we can "forgive" in favor of their other attributes if schools interview mostly URMs with low stats and very very very few non-urms with low stats.

Once again, you are trying to compare URM students to non-URM students. They are not really competing against each other since there is essentially a fixed amount of how many people (URM and non-URM) are accepted into medical school. Now if you are saying that roughly 80% of 17,000 seats are not good enough, then maybe you should be advocating for more seats in medical school. If you are complaining that your stats are just as good as someone else's stats who you honestly aren't competing against (a URM); your argument really gets you nowhere. You are competing against other non-URM's for a spot in medical school, and if you can not live up to the standards, then that is your own problem. Keep in mind that if you are non-URM but disadvantaged, you are given an advantage over other advantaged non-URM's. Do you want every seat to be given based blindly on statistics. Are you so naive that you do not realize so many social injustices are still plaguing America? Until the underlying issues are fixed, there really is no better alternative to URM status.

 

[batm0nque]

That's ridiculous. Why should I assume that an urm student got in becaue of AA just because some do? That's like me accusing random caucasian med students of benefitting from legacy status even though it may not apply to them. Both are wrong. I choose to informate before I speculate ~ Lil Wayne. Meaning, unless I have concrete evidence or proof, I won't assume anything of anyone. It's a respect thing. Some people have it, some don't.

legacy status thumbdown)...thats something people should get riled up about...

 

[flaahless]

Youre right that schools probably do reserve spots for URMS, but these reserved spots dont serve as a cap on URM students. It isnt like the jewish quotas from several decades ago that put a limit on jewish students, despite them have higher scores than most admitted applicants.

The reason it can be said that URM students are at an advantage is because if a URM and non URM student both applied with the same exact numbers, the black student would be significantly more likely to be accepted. In the law school AA case, there was an admissions grid provided into evidence that showed how with a certain number combination (I think I was 157 LSAT/3.3 gpa) 48 of 49 black applicants were accepted while only 3 of 110 whites were accepted.

Haha URM=black. Bogus dawg, just bogus.

 

[surfstarj]

Anecdotal conjecture. If the avg. is 3.5/30... And I'll even call it a 3.6/32 for the pundits out there, that means half the people had higher numbers, half had lower. The lower half is not made up entirely of urms. There are some caucaisians and asians in there too believe it or not, and quite a few since they represent probably 75% of the applicant pool. I don't feel like checking AAMC.

And that's matriculant data, the numbers for interviews are even higher.

Actually average doesn't mean half were lower. Median would mean that. An average can be skewed by outliers like a few really low scores. Everyone knows a URM with a 26-27 MCAT acceptance, I'd be willing to be everyone does not know a non-urm with the same.

 

[BlackDr2b]

There are other ways to increase the number of doctors working in under served communities.

How?

 

[WinterLights]

Anecdotal conjecture. If the avg. is 3.5/30... And I'll even call it a 3.6/32 for the pundits out there, that means half the people had higher numbers, half had lower. The lower half is not made up entirely of urms. There are some caucaisians and asians in there too believe it or not, and quite a few since they represent probably 75% of the applicant pool. I don't feel like checking AAMC.

And that's matriculant data, the numbers for interviews are even higher.

Even if every single URM accepted was below the average (3.6/32), there would still be some 34% of those below average who are non-URM. And we all know that all URMs are not below this statistical line. So by that fact alone you see that significantly more non-URM's are accepted with lower stats than URM's. What was surfstar's argument again? That non-URM's with lower stats do not get a fair shake? Hmm.

 

[Cp22kjer]

We can only hope for a million reasons. Sadly it will be prevalent as long as America promotes how "great" diversity is.

 

[atalkinghead]

Everyone knows a URM with a 26-27 MCAT acceptance, I'd be willing to be everyone does not know a non-urm with the same.

Really?

 

[flaahless]

But AA is not going to help end oppression and may perpetuate it e.g. people will continue to assume minority doctors/lawyers etc are undeserving, no EFFECTIVE measure at ending the factors that necessitate AA need to be taken while we have AA and can still pretend like it's working. See my other 10 or so posts. And no I have never had a Beretta pressed against my forehead but how is AA going to eliminate racial profiling?

Of course AA won't end oppression, but it can help to soften it's sting. And I don't think AA perpetuates negative perceptions of urms, rather stupid, ignorant and prejudiced people perpetuate the negative perceptions of urms..

And the racial profiling scenario was an example of modern day oppression to counteract your "slavery is over we must move beyond it" statement.

 

[WinterLights]

How?

How about establishing incentives for those who make a commitment to working in an underserved area. How about bringing in more students with a distinct desire to pursue medicine in poverty stricken areas? How about geniunely educating your students on the importance of working in underserved areas. Oh wait, that actually takes money and time. I guess the easier alternative is recruit URM's instead. . .

 

[flaahless]

Actually average doesn't mean half were lower. Median would mean that. An average can be skewed by outliers like a few really low scores. Everyone knows a URM with a 26-27 MCAT acceptance, I'd be willing to be everyone does not know a non-urm with the same.

Touche, but still, the rationality is still sound.

 

[surfstarj]

Once again, you are trying to compare URM students to non-URM students. They are not really competing against each other since there is essentially a fixed amount of how many people (URM and non-URM) are accepted into medical school. Now if you are saying that roughly 80% of 17,000 seats are not good enough, then maybe you should be advocating for more seats in medical school. If you are complaining that your stats are just as good as someone else's stats who you honestly aren't competing against (a URM); your argument really gets you nowhere. You are competing against other non-URM's for a spot in medical school, and if you can not live up to the high standards, then that is your own problem. Keep in mind that if you are non-URM but disadvantaged, you are given an advantage over other advantaged non-URM's. Do you want every seat to be given based blindly on statistics. Are you so naive that you do not realize so many social injustices are still plaguing America? Until the underlying issues are fixed, there really is no better alternative to URM status.

But they are competing because if we did not have a urm status triggered by which racial category you select for yourself on AMCAS and schools had no idea of the race of the applicant (aka blind admissions) there would be very few low-stat students overall. Since we KNOW that URM applicants run a lower average, we know fewer of them would be accepted nationally.

and ABSOLUTELY not do I want seats to be blindly given based on stats, but if they were, that's how it would go.

FINALLY, I've said it before and I'll say it again, AA will never ever solve the social injustices in this country, a far cry from it. It justs helps some people become doctors and leaves many behind in the same conditions to continue the same cycle.

 

[surfstarj]

Touche, but still, the rationality is still sound.

I have never seen data on this (mostly because I don't care to look) but along that rationale, I'd still say that if you looked at "accepted by MCAT score/gpa" you'd see that the majority of those accepted with lower scores were URM. I'm definitely with you on the importance of the whole package but I still think that interviews are given to more low-stat URMs than low-state non-URMs which gives low stat URMs an advantage in displaying their "whole package" (no perversion intended).

 

[flaahless]

I have never seen data on this (mostly because I don't care to look) but along that rationale, I'd still say that if you looked at "accepted by MCAT score/gpa" you'd see that the majority of those accepted with lower scores were URM. I'm definitely with you on the importance of the whole package but I still think that interviews are given to more low-stat URMs than low-state non-URMs which gives low stat URMs an advantage in displaying their "whole package" (no perversion intended).

There aren't that many urms getting interviews though. I mean, the urm acceptance rates are lower than those of non-urms and urms are outnumbered like 4:1 in the applicant pool! I'd argue that pound for pound, non-urms STILL get more interviews, low stats, high stats, stats that climb on rocks... whatever the stats, there are more non-urms because of the sheer volume of them and the fact that they have higher success rates.

EDIT: AAHAHAHAHAHA @ the bold.

 

[surfstarj]

And I don't think AA perpetuates negative perceptions of urms, rather stupid, ignorant and prejudiced people perpetuate the negative perceptions of urms..

As true as this is for every one person like you, who worked hard, got into med school, made it real there are people who keep contributing to negative stereotypes of their cultures. This needs to end as well as the, I'll say, belligerent refusal to let go of ignorance, learn about other people and seriously think about ways of helping everyone lift themselves up.

 

[BlackDr2b]

How about establishing incentives for those who make a commitment to working in an underserved area. How about bringing in more students with a distinct desire to pursue medicine in poverty stricken areas? How about geniunely educating your students on the importance of working in underserved areas. Oh wait, that actually takes money and time. I guess the easier alternative is recruit URM's instead. . .

Sounds good but what happens when you do these things and yet the underserved community is still being cheated and not served? I think this is why it is important to increase the number of URM docs because no matter what schools say the underserved is still not being treated. It is just a constant cycle of people coming in saying that they are going to serve and then they don't.

 

[batm0nque]

.

 

[surfstarj]

There aren't that many urms getting interviews though. I mean, the urm acceptance rates are lower than those of non-urms and urms are outnumbered like 4:1 in the applicant pool! I'd argue that pound for pound, non-urms STILL get more interviews, low stats, high stats, stats that climb on rocks... whatever the stats, there are more non-urms because of the sheer volume of them and the fact that they have higher success rates.

OK, I think I'm being unclear.

aka
for applicants with 27 MCAT who were offered an interview, what's the demographic background? (I don't know! I'm just wondering as well as you are).

Anyway, my point is not to argue that AA is unfair. I don't think that at all. I think, however, that it's a distraction from the real work that needs to be done to end the reasons why there aren't enough "Blacks, Mexican-Americans, Native Americans (that is, American Indians, Alaska Natives, and Native Hawaiians), and mainland Puerto Ricans" in medicine in the first place.

 

[WinterLights]

But they are competing because if we did not have a urm status triggered by which racial category you select for yourself on AMCAS and schools had no idea of the race of the applicant (aka blind admissions) there would be very few low-stat students overall. Since we KNOW that URM applicants run a lower average, we know fewer of them would be accepted nationally.

and ABSOLUTELY not do I want seats to be blindly given based on stats, but if they were, that's how it would go.

FINALLY, I've said it before and I'll say it again, AA will never ever solve the social injustices in this country, a far cry from it. It justs helps some people become doctors and leaves many behind in the same conditions to continue the same cycle.

I do not understand what your argument is then. You are basically saying that you are against URM status because it does not solve anything in your eyes (which is definitely debatable). You have provided no other alternative, no other solution. If AA/URM status were removed and the racial demographics completely changed, you would say that this is a solution? Having only students of caucasian descent and asian descent is the likely outcome of such a situation. As I said before, unless society as a whole is willing to correct all of the injustices that are taking place at this point in time, you cannot expect an injustice that is helping those who have been at a social disadvantage to be rescinded.

 

[surfstarj]

sounds Good But What Happens When You Do These Things And Yet The Underserved Community Is Still Being Cheated And Not Served? I Think This Is Why It Is Important To Increase The Number Of Urm Docs Because No Matter What Schools Say The Underserved Is Still Not Being Treated. It Is Just A Constant Cycle Of People Coming In Saying That They Are Going To Serve And Then They Don't.

Not All Underserved Areas Are Populated By Urms.

 

[batm0nque]

.

the SINGLE greatest predictor of intent upon graduation from medical school to practice in an underserved community is being a URM (42%), followed by intention at matriculation to work with underserved (23%)

...

that is all..the data i quoted is from the UC-Prime program and can be found online (i would link it...but i accessed it by downloading the ppt.)

 

[WinterLights]

Sounds good but what happens when you do these things and yet the underserved community is still being cheated and not served? I think this is why it is important to increase the number of URM docs because no matter what schools say the underserved is still not being treated. It is just a constant cycle of people coming in saying that they are going to serve and then they don't.

Schools could designate seats for individuals that agree to serve in poor communities if they truly wanted to.

 

[gabem480]

Man, AA is not a program designed for the sole purpose to counteracting the negative effects of slavery.

I agree, the country has changed, however, there is still oppression and social, economic, educational and health disparities between the various groups of people in the US. As long as that remains, policies like AA should remain to counteract them.

And I'm not even trying to get into the gritty details of it all, but let me ask you this, how many times have you been handcuffed? Or better yet, how many times have you had a standard issued beretta pressed against your forehead?

Slavery is over, oppression isn't.

D**n so many times I lost count but you know what a lot of that comes along with all the racial profiling going on in Arizona right this minute.