Is affirmative action in the admission process about to end?

[neurocirujano]

I'm glad you did well but don't fall into the trap of feeling that you have to prove yourself. . Whether you get a 25 or a 35 there will always be those individuals that believe your ethnicity was the single most determining factor for your success. Just do you, and it seems you've done well to get to this point. Kudos


I've had 1 student say that too me at my undergrad and I didn't even know her that well. Most people that know me expected me to do big things and attribute my success to other attributes about me. Life experiences, LORs, personality and smile. Don't underestimate the importance of a smile forreal.

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[borat2008]

first off, flaahless, youre a baller. needed to be said.

secondly, let me premise i am a white male who used to think AA was a terrible thing and recently have changed my mind. to everyone who is absolutely bashing AA, seriously, get over yourselves. i absolutely love how pre-meds can get on here and anonymously claim to have a greater idea of how medical schools should compose their classes better than the admissions committee themselves. if yall want everything to be about numbers, are you guys sure that medicine is right for you?

additionally, does anyone actually believe that AA as a whole is discriminating against white people? come on, 99% of the time, its a cop-out for those who couldn't hack it.

im going to leave the studies / factual arguments to flaahless, cause he's got that covered. and also, go ahead and flame me all you want cause i dont give a **** what anonymous people on sdn think about me.

 

[nVictus]

hey, im asian... can someone educate me as to why we arent considered minorities? of the blacks/whites/hispanics/asians, we're definitely the minority. honest question... not trying to start anything other than a discussion.

were asians discriminated against in the past? i think so.
do some asians come from poor backgrounds? yes, what race doesnt?

so why arent asians considered minority? if asians can fight past discrimination and a poor upbringing, why have AA at all?

 

[TehDoc]

first off, flaahless, youre a baller. needed to be said.

secondly, let me premise i am a white male who used to think AA was a terrible thing and recently have changed my mind. to everyone who is absolutely bashing AA, seriously, get over yourselves. i absolutely love how pre-meds can get on here and anonymously claim to have a greater idea of how medical schools should compose their classes better than the admissions committee themselves. if yall want everything to be about numbers, are you guys sure that medicine is right for you?

additionally, does anyone actually believe that AA as a whole is discriminating against white people? come on, 99% of the time, its a cop-out for those who couldn't hack it.

im going to leave the studies / factual arguments to flaahless, cause he's got that covered. and also, go ahead and flame me all you want cause i dont give a **** what anonymous people on sdn think about me.

+1 to you good sir. It seems flaahless, along with other people are just repeating themselves. Reason being its hard to explain things to them when they refuse to give the arguments thought.

 

[TehDoc]

hey, im asian... can someone educate me as to why we arent considered minorities? of the blacks/whites/hispanics/asians, we're definitely the minority. honest question... not trying to start anything other than a discussion.

were asians discriminated against in the past? i think so.
do some asians come from poor backgrounds? yes, what race doesnt?

so why arent asians considered minority? if asians can fight past discrimination and a poor upbringing, why have AA at all?

Well it has a bit to do with the population. Take a look in my city, a major metro area. Asians makes up almost half of the demographics. On top of that, you will see a good amount of asian doctors in general.

:edit: Sorry. Not half but they have the second biggest pop.

 

[flaahless]

I don't get why some on this site are so offended by the idea that without racial preferences in med school admission, black and urm enrollment would decrease dramatically. This is actually the argument put forth by those who support AA.

Also, while its true that these studies may have flaws, as do all studies, what makes you think that your beliefs are correct?

I have seen you attempt to pick apart every study and link out there, but at the end of the day all you have presented to support your side are blind assertions. What exactly makes you so certain that the vast majority of blacks wouldn't be rejected in race neutral admissions? Flawed or not, I have presented a mountain of evidence, stats, links and studies. You have haven't present any evidence at all supporting your claim. Instead of trying to nitpick every study to death, why don't you just present your own case.

Exactly my point. I'm trying to prevent you from spreading misleading propaganda (ie: flawed evidence) that will only perpetuate the negative perceptions of urms.

I'm not arguing whether or not AA will result in the decrease of urm admissions, that's already apparent, see the UCs and prop 209.

I'm challenging your rationality. You draw large conclusions from "evidence" that doesn't directly support your claims. By saying stuff like "almost all urms at top institutions got in because of AA" based off median data posted by aamc 3 years ago or some biased article published a decade ago and before the Bollinger cases that you were touting earlier, is fallacious and invalid. There is not enough evidence for you to make thos conclusions, especially when not all the top schools even use AA. Do you not see the blatant flaws of your claim?

Here is a fact for you... fact is we won't know how many urms benefit from AA unless you speak to the adcom directly and dissect exactly why each urm applicant was accepted.

Stats and numerical data give you a broad picture, but that's it. They don't tell you which student's benefitted, to what extent they benefitted and the level of AA practiced at each particular institution. And without that valuable information your arguments are bogus. And just because you post evidence and links doesn't make your claims are valid. There is evidence that the world is flat, doesn't make it true.

So, everytime you make a fallacious claim based on "evidence" that doesn't correlate to or substantiate your conclusions, I'm going to challenge you.

 

[flaahless]

first off, flaahless, youre a baller. needed to be said.

secondly, let me premise i am a white male who used to think AA was a terrible thing and recently have changed my mind. to everyone who is absolutely bashing AA, seriously, get over yourselves. i absolutely love how pre-meds can get on here and anonymously claim to have a greater idea of how medical schools should compose their classes better than the admissions committee themselves. if yall want everything to be about numbers, are you guys sure that medicine is right for you?

additionally, does anyone actually believe that AA as a whole is discriminating against white people? come on, 99% of the time, its a cop-out for those who couldn't hack it.

im going to leave the studies / factual arguments to flaahless, cause he's got that covered. and also, go ahead and flame me all you want cause i dont give a **** what anonymous people on sdn think about me.

Dawg, I'm gonna visit you at Pritzker forreal G. Probably next summer though when the weather is nice.

 

[WinterLights]

If you're conservative at 20 you have no heart.

If you're liberal at 40 you have no brains.

 

[parto123]

Exactly my point. I'm trying to prevent you from spreading misleading propaganda (ie: flawed evidence) that will only perpetuate the negative perceptions of urms.

I'm not arguing whether or not AA will result in the decrease of urm admissions, that's already apparent, see the UCs and prop 209.

I'm challenging your rationality. You draw large conclusions from "evidence" that doesn't directly support your claims. By saying stuff like "almost all urms at top institutions got in because of AA" based off median data posted by aamc 3 years ago or some biased article published a decade ago and before the Bollinger cases that you were touting earlier, is fallacious and invalid. There is not enough evidence for you to make thos conclusions, especially when not all the top schools even use AA. Do you not see the blatant flaws of your claim?.

This isnt my claim, this is the AAMCs claim. Why are you directing this at me? I even linked to their brief.

Here is a fact for you... fact is we won't know how many urms benefit from AA unless you speak to the adcom directly and dissect exactly why each urm applicant was accepted.

But it is the admissions officers themselves, not i, who are making the claim that by cutting racial preferences, the vast majority of blacks wouldn't be accepted. Surely the adcoms are in the best position to see this. Also, in the texas case ( 88% less black enrollment the year after AA was banned) the utexas openly stated that this was a direct result of the ban.

So, everytime you make a fallacious claim based on "evidence" that doesn't correlate to or substantiate your conclusions, I'm going to challenge you

Once again, not my claim, the AAMC, and adcoms. So if anyone is ignorant its them.

 

[borat2008]

for sure, flaahless. im making my way out to sf sometime likewise. need me some beach action after being in the chi for winter.

one last thought: it is not clearly obvious why when considerations are removed from the admissions process it will be significantly tilted toward numbers? who here bent the mcat over solely on the merit of their own intelligence? probably nobody, we are a product of our environment. prep classes, private schools, parents and community that constantly pushes us to be achievers, etc. so when the adcom sees an applicant that comes from a disadvantaged situation (yes, whites are included in this phrase too, so stfu) would it not make sense to gauge the applicant more on the basis of how they achieved given their situation? the proper extrapolation of this analysis would be that when they are placed in a similar environment with the other students, they will achieve similiarly. and guess what guys? this isnt some experiment. med schools keep accepting students based on achievement given a situation (umm, thats why we have personal statements guys) and these "low stat" kids keep achieving and graduating medical school. the practice of medicine is where the rubber meets the road, medical schools wont accept people that wont achieve.

 

[redlight]

hey, im asian... can someone educate me as to why we arent considered minorities? of the blacks/whites/hispanics/asians, we're definitely the minority. honest question... not trying to start anything other than a discussion.

were asians discriminated against in the past? i think so.
do some asians come from poor backgrounds? yes, what race doesnt?

so why arent asians considered minority? if asians can fight past discrimination and a poor upbringing, why have AA at all?

ughh, asians are minorities, but not underrepresented minorities.
why does this keep coming up?
in 2006: 4.4% of the population is asian, 12.2% of the population is black

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity

med school applicants, according to the AAMC
in 2007: 8,390 out of the 42,315 are asian (19.8%)
3,133 applicants out of 42,315 are black (7.4%),

source:http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2007/state-re-app2007.htm

 

[Narmerguy]

ughh, asians are minorities, but not underrepresented minorities.
why does this keep coming up?
in 2006: 4.4% of the population is asian, 12.2% of the population is black

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity

med school applicants, according to the AAMC
in 2007: 8,390 out of the 42,315 are asian (19.8%)
3,133 applicants out of 42,315 are black (7.4%),

source:http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2007/state-re-app2007.htm

Isn't it refreshing when someone includes sources?

 

[redlight]

lmao thats the mindset my mans! thats the same **** i was sayin 3 years ago...4.0, 40 no questions...granted ive fallen sumwat short of these goals (moreso, mcat wise ) that mindset is wat got me thur!

oh, and incidentally, sum bytch (well, my frend, but shes annoying as ****) jus called me to ask how i did on my mcats....i said i did well...then she was like, in an entirely jokingly manner, *oh well, it doesnt matter, ull get in neway cuz ur black hahahaha*....do you know how many times ive heard this in the past month! at least 5 times! and coming from the same ppl WHO I TA'ed AS STUDENTS IN F*CKING ORGO! i beat the **** out of them in EVERY class, and yet, they still got the balls to make jokes like that...and, in all other respects, they are my friends, and theyll make jokes like these in public and i dont feel like turning into the angry black man (tho, i have done that a couple times) i lost enuff frends in hs for their smart comments when i started getting money thrown in my face for undergrad so i learned my lesson...now i jus come back with, although less "painful" retort about their parents being big fat white racist pigs...but this doesn usually elict much laughter...and i still look like the angry blk guy, even if i say it totally in jest...UGH! wat to do wat to do!?

hopefully i dont have the same experiences with my "friends" ahaha. it sucks how you just have to eat up comments and jokes like that. no one should have to deal with that crap.

but yea thats definitely one of my big motivations- i don't want to hear that BS of AA being the reason i got into med school. i imagine that stuff can mess with your mind regardless of how talented you are, or how competitive your stats are. i mean really, some of these people think unless accepted urms have stats higher than theirs, AA was involved. thats ludicrous.

and congrats on having a great gpa and mcat! (for the third time, lol) good luck on this upcoming cycle!

 

[PreMD86]

Didn't they create the "socio-political" forum for the purpose of sending these kinds of threads there to die? Sometimes I really wonder what goes on in the mods' minds.

 

[nVictus]

i wonder then.... what % of those minorities go back to underprivileged areas. anyone have the numbers on those?

 

[Trojanation]

All I know is that I'm using AA to my advantage this cycle. I left race off on my last cycle and I feel it could have really helped me had I used it. Live and learn.

 

[redlight]

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/journal_of_...6.1frazer.html
.".Minority medical graduates are four times more likely than whites to practice in underserved areas, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges"

AAMC has this 129 pg report, but i wont sift through it atm.

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/journal_of_...6.1frazer.html
.“.Minority medical graduates are four times more likely than whites to practice in underserved areas, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges”

AAMC has this 129 pg report, but i wont sift through it atm.

 

[surfstarj]

...misleading propaganda (ie: flawed evidence) that will only perpetuate the negative perceptions of urms.

Like this?

I'm for affirmative action as a means to help oppressed people reach positions of power

When am I, the white child of immigrant families arriving to the US ~50 years ago, going to stop having to pay for the mistakes people in this country made 150+ years ago. Just a thought.

Brief history of persecution in the US:

women/witches, native americans (reservations), slavery and beyond, jews, catholics, irish, italians, soviets, socialists, asians (internment camps?!), fat people, arabs, persians because they look arab, women, women of aforementioned groups, women....

I'm not even totally against affirmative action, access to education has to be equalized and yes, minorities and poor people (who basically aren't given consideration in AA) have poor access to education and for that matter, role models. But this country needs to get over the resentment being harbored for something that cannot ever be removed from this country's history. Is the African American son of a doctor/lawyer/ceo/etc still laboring under the oppression his ancestors (if they were here) faced during the antebellum? How about the poor son of wage workers without a college degree in the entire extended family?

People who have overcome oppression and adversity to become successful have the absolute responsibility to return from where they came and be MODELS so that the vicious cycle of discrimination, victimization, and underachieving can end. I have a feeling this is the missing link (Not with you, Flaahless, I have a feeling you're a rather good role model actually). Until this can be eliminated from within these groups, AA is only a stopgap in solving the disparities within medicine and beyond.

 

[surfstarj]

We've got bigger problems than med school admissions.

 

[flaahless]

When am I, the white child of immigrant families arriving to the US ~50 years ago, going to stop having to pay for the mistakes people in this country made 150+ years ago. Just a thought.

The mistakes aren't over, they are still occurring, that's why AA is needed.

I'm not even totally against affirmative action, access to education has to be equalized and yes, minorities and poor people (who basically aren't given consideration in AA) have poor access to education and for that matter, role models. But this country needs to get over the resentment being harbored for something that cannot ever be removed from this country's history.

And how do you know this though? This data isn't as readily available as the black vs. white AA data. Also, it's not as easy to identify students that have benefitted from AA programs targeting the poor because they don't wear their economically disadvantaged status on their skin.

The disadvantaged status section on the amcas is affirmative action. It is another aspect of the application, besides than the objective merit-based stats, that med schools can take into consideration when choosing their med students.

Is the African American son of a doctor/lawyer/ceo/etc still laboring under the oppression his ancestors (if they were here) faced during the antebellum?

Possibly, I need more info.

How about the poor son of wage workers without a college degree in the entire extended family?

Possibly, I need more info.

People who have overcome oppression and adversity to become successful have the absolute responsibility to return from where they came and be MODELS so that the vicious cycle of discrimination, victimization, and underachieving can end. I have a feeling this is the missing link (Not with you, Flaahless, I have a feeling you're a rather good role model actually). Until this can be eliminated from within these groups, AA is only a stopgap in solving the disparities within medicine and beyond.

Agreed.

We've got bigger problems than med school admissions.

Agreed.

 

[Monica Lewinsky]

Here is a fact for you... fact is we won't know how many urms benefit from AA unless you speak to the adcom directly and dissect exactly why each urm applicant was accepted.

Exactly.

And because there is no transparency about what "advantages" URMs get in the admissions process, it leads many to question the legitimacy of the URM students. The is augmented by the perceived favoritism that URMs receive not just in terms of admission but in financial aid, favoritism that cannot be explained because no one can question it because we are supposed to facilitate an accepting environment.

Once the **** hits the fan when you take tests, boards, learn in the wards, match into residency, that's when the true nature of the admissions process comes through.

 

[borat2008]

"Is the African American son of a doctor/lawyer/ceo/etc still laboring under the oppression his ancestors (if they were here) faced during the antebellum? How about the poor son of wage workers without a college degree in the entire extended family?"

omg. i hadnt even thought of that. you should totally call every adcom and let them know that white people can be poor. ill bet they have no idea.

 

[Mister Pie]

I'm a little bit confused about what is being argued at the moment. Are we arguing about whether or not AA helps more URM applicants get in to school? I don't understand how this is a debate. Most of the PUBLISHED data posted on this forum seems to support the assertion that at least some proportion of URM students benefit in the admissions process through AA. In addition, once AA was outlawed in CA, the student body profile changed significantly:

http://www.diverseeducation.com/artman/publish/article_10672.shtml

As to whether or not there SHOULD be AA, I think that the answer is yes, at least for the meantime, for reasons that other posters here have already stated.

 

[Dedikated2liftn]

All I know is that I'm using AA to my advantage this cycle. I left race off on my last cycle and I feel it could have really helped me had I used it. Live and learn.

Haha, go get'em Trigger...let's get that acceptance for the right reasons .

 

[Trojanation]

Haha, go get'em Trigger...let's get that acceptance for the right reasons .

Hey, I don't care as long as I get in and if that'll help me why shouldn't I use it? You play to win.

 

[WinterLights]

For all of the fuss, I would think that 50% of the seats were going to URM's instead of around 16%. I also find it interesting that African-Americans have lower rates of acceptance than non URM's. Still, people have the right to blame whomever or whatever they would like.

 

[Dedikated2liftn]

Hey, I don't care as long as I get in and if that'll help me why shouldn't I use it? You play to win.

And we wonder why this is such a hot-button topic....

 

[paranoid_eyes]

why make these threads....seriously...

do you guys really think that a bunch of whiny non-urms and a bunch of defensive urms arguing about this topic will actually make a difference????

that's the funniest thing ive observed about premeds: you guys ACTUALLY think you're going to be making a difference

 

[happytograduate]

Look. AA or not, it is wrong for someone to assume that "most people of a particular ethnic group received preferential treatment." That is incredibly frustrating to deal with. When, as an applicant, many of us (urms) are no different than you. We want to be a doctor, we try our hardest to pursue our dream, and when or if we attain it, there are plenty of individuals to pull the race card and remind us that we are different. That we "benefitted" from something or didn't get in on our own merits and our advice and/or opinions can be disregarded because we are urms and the rules are universally different for us.

And whenever these urm and AA debates jump off, it seems to always boil down to a black vs. white issue.

ie: There is the "I have a black friend at harvard who doesn't deserve to be there..." story. There is the "matriculation numbers of black med students are lower than the national average so virtually every urm is underqualified and needed a handout..." story. There is the "why aren't poor whites given preferential treatment" story. The latter is really ridiculous because there is no published data on that.

That's the point people are trying to make flahless. When affirmative action is supported heavily especially in medical school admissions (rightfully or wrongfully), then don't act surprised later when people bring it up as a reason for the person who possibly benefited from it in getting accepted somewhere.

Yes AA may have helped, and it might not have, but when it is known as one of the possible factors, people are likely to bring that up as a reason for that person's successes. Justice Clarence Thomas brought up that point himself. Referring to affirmative action, Thomas said, "Any effort, policy or program that (in some way accepts the notion) that Blacks are inferior is a non-starter with me."

 

[flaahless]

That's the point people are trying to make flahless. When affirmative action is supported heavily especially in medical school admissions (rightfully or wrongfully), then don't act surprised later when people bring it up as a reason for the person who possibly benefited from it in getting accepted somewhere.

Yes AA may have helped, and it might not have, but when it is known as one of the possible factors, people are likely to bring that up as a reason for that person's successes. Justice Clarence Thomas brought up that point himself. Referring to affirmative action, Thomas said, "Any effort, policy or program that (in some way accepts the notion) that Blacks are inferior is a non-starter with me."

So since AA exists, I should just get used to the prejudice and disrespectful views of my colleagues? Hahaha, right.

 

[hopefuldoc87]

So since AA exists, I should just get used to the prejudice and disrespectful views of my colleagues? Hahaha, right.

No one should be disrespectful or prejudiced towards you. That is obviously wrong. And happytograduate did not say that. What he said was that maybe you should understand that some, and only some, people possibly benefited from affirmative action and got accepted at a medical school where they might not have gotten into without the help of AA. How is someone wrong to just question that? You know how cut-throat most med school applicants are.

 

[Lokhtar]

In my opinion, the AA in medical school admissions is fine. They are trying to get a diverse class.

The goal of the medical schools is to take in a class that will most improve the nation's health, not to cater to rich white/asian/indian boys. Giving opportunities to underrepresented and non-privileged people does that, by hopefully improving the health in their communities. I'm just fine with it, and I hope it continues. I'm a very borderline applicant, and if this means I don't get in - so be it. I've had a more privileged life than some, and less than others, and medical schools will decide who they want in their class. GPA and MCAT are nice, but in the end, the medical school's goals are to have a diverse pool of practicing physicians to improve the health of the entire nation, not just the health of the people in the Hamptons.

 

[hopefuldoc87]

In my opinion, the AA in medical school admissions is fine. They are trying to get a diverse class.

The goal of the medical schools is to take in a class that will most improve the nation's health, not to cater to rich white/asian/indian boys. quote]

Isn't that sort of being stereotypical...to assume all white/asian/indian boys are rich?

I'm not name calling lokhtar...so please do not take it that way. I just don't see why a disadvantaged white/asian/indian doesn't deserve an equal chance as any other disadvantaged race. I know medical schools want a diverse class, so that's probably the main reason. But if that is the case, then why are people in this thread arguing that AA does not give African-Americans an advantage?

Just my 2 cents.

 

[WinterLights]

In my opinion, the AA in medical school admissions is fine. They are trying to get a diverse class.

The goal of the medical schools is to take in a class that will most improve the nation's health, not to cater to rich white/asian/indian boys. quote]

Isn't that sort of being stereotypical...to assume all white/asian/indian boys are rich?

I'm not name calling lokhtar...so please do not take it that way. I just don't see why a disadvantaged white/asian/indian doesn't deserve an equal chance as any other disadvantaged race. I know medical schools want a diverse class, so that's probably the main reason. But if that is the case, then why are people in this thread arguing that AA does not give African-Americans an advantage?

Just my 2 cents.

African Americans have a surprisingly lower rate of acceptance than non-urm's, so I do not really see how they have an advantage. Also, economic background is taken into consideration for everyone, so a poor non-URM will have the same advantage as a poor URM in that respect.

 

[atalkinghead]

For all of the fuss, I would think that 50% of the seats were going to URM's instead of around 16%. I also find it interesting that African-Americans have lower rates of acceptance than non URM's. Still, people have the right to blame whomever or whatever they would like.

Exactly!!!

 

[surfstarj]

The mistakes aren't over, they are still occurring, that's why AA is needed.

Think of all of the non-anglo (aka not from england circa colonial times in this case) immigrants that have arrived to this country fairly recently in its history. This country IS NOT the country that originated slavery, caused the civil war (which, I'll remind you, half the country fought vehemently to end. GO YANKEES).

A large majority of this populations' relatives were on another continent pre-1960s civil rights movement, let alone pre-civil war. The world owes the 12M people's families in the holocaust an "apology" to say the least. But somehow they've carried on. We need to get over this if there is any hope for progress NOW, in the present time.

Yes, if you're parents and family have failed to get out of poverty, set a model for you making it easier for you to do the things you need to do to be a competitive applicant in the process, then by all means AA is necessary. But it isn't a skin-color thing. Med schools admissions aren't going to solve the "mistakes," far from it. I think they continue to contribute in a way meaning that minorities are incapable of lifting themselves up so we have to pull them up. The issue is still getting internal, cultural change to propel the populations out of low opportunity settings. We've all got a lot of work to do to make this a better country. WORK, it's hard. The evidence that AA has done it's job will be when the average entrance stats of all groups become similar as well as the licensure rates of all groups, not the case right now.

 

[atalkinghead]

That's the point people are trying to make flahless. When affirmative action is supported heavily especially in medical school admissions (rightfully or wrongfully), then don't act surprised later when people bring it up as a reason for the person who possibly benefited from it in getting accepted somewhere.

Hey Happytograduate,

I see where you're coming from, and I don't doubt that there are some minorities who gotten into a college/program because of AA.

However, when people bring up AA as the reason why I will be successful, I can't help but think that they're making excuses for themselves. Mainly because I have the same stats (if not, better) as them.

 

[hopefuldoc87]

African Americans have a surprisingly lower rate of acceptance than non-urm's, so I do not really see how they have an advantage. Also, economic background is taken into consideration for everyone, so a poor non-URM will have the same advantage as a poor URM in that respect.

Even though they have a lower rate of acceptance than non-URM's, many people have posted the AAMC source saying the average GPA and MCAT of matriculants is lower than the national average. I'm not saying I am anything special, because believe me, I'm not, but doesn't this stat sort of show the advantage?

As for the non-URM economic background also taken into account, I'm pretty sure it's not as much as the advantage a URM would have. Again, I have no sources, this is just my opinion. So take it with a grain of salt.

For the record, believe it or not, I am for AA. I think it's important to have diversity in the medical field.

 

[WinterLights]

Think of all of the non-anglo (aka not from england circa colonial times in this case) immigrants that have arrived to this country fairly recently in its history. This country IS NOT the country that originated slavery, caused the civil war (which, I'll remind you, half the country fought vehemently to end. GO YANKEES).

A large majority of this populations' relatives were on another continent pre-1960s civil rights movement, let alone pre-civil war. The world owes the 12M people's families in the holocaust an "apology" to say the least. But somehow they've carried on. We need to get over this if there is any hope for progress NOW, in the present time.

Yes, if you're parents and family have failed to get out of poverty, set a model for you making it easier for you to do the things you need to do to be a competitive applicant in the process, then by all means AA is necessary. But it isn't a skin-color thing. Med schools admissions aren't going to solve the "mistakes," far from it. I think they continue to contribute in a way meaning that minorities are incapable of lifting themselves up so we have to pull them up. The issue is still getting internal, cultural change to propel the populations out of low opportunity settings. We've all got a lot of work to do to make this a better country. WORK, it's hard. The evidence that AA has done it's job will be when the average entrance stats of all groups become similar as well as the licensure rates of all groups, not the case right now.

Many of them immigrants that you speak of were readily able to assimilate into mainstream American society whereas those of African descent were (are) not. Also, if you base advantage on economic status alone, then you will have far less minority students in medicine because of the fact that the majority of people in poverty in the United states are of European descent. We must address both poverty and racial inequality in the United States, not just one or the other. I believe that the system used by medical schools for admission is the best option available at this point.

EDIT: Are you trying to relate genocide to slavery? Both are atrocities, but they both have very different effects on the victim populations.

 

[atalkinghead]

Even though they have a lower rate of acceptance than non-URM's, many people have posted the AAMC source saying the average GPA and MCAT of matriculants is lower than the national average.

There are many white people with lower than average stats that get accepted as well ... what was their advantage?

 

[Quix]

The nadir of race relations in the country was actually during the Reconstruction period, which ran until the early 20th century, so we aren't talking about antebellum periods and responsibility. The cycles of poverty were established then, as were the systematic teaching of history using a Confederacy viewpoint (if the terms "scalawags" and "carpetbaggers" were part of the every-day language of your early history education, congratulations, you received the Confederacy perspective on Reconstruction). Both of these are explained more fully in Loewen's Lies My Teacher Told Me.

 

[Lokhtar]

Isn't that sort of being stereotypical...to assume all white/asian/indian boys are rich?

No, its not stereotypical to assume that most people who goto medical school are well off compared to the general population. It's true, and you can look it up.

I just don't see why a disadvantaged white/asian/indian doesn't deserve an equal chance as any other disadvantaged race. I know medical schools want a diverse class, so that's probably the main reason. But if that is the case, then why are people in this thread arguing that AA does not give African-Americans an advantage?

First, if you are white/asian/indian and disadvantaged, you do get an advantage because you can file for economically disadvantaged which colleges look at in a similar manner to URM.

 

[hopefuldoc87]

There are many white people with lower than average stats that get accepted as well ... what was their advantage?

Right that would make sense since it is an average, and there are numbers above and below. I didn't say every single African-American has lower stats than the national average. What I did say was that the average stat for African-American matriculants was below other averages of matriculants from other backgrounds, as per the AAMC website. Again, I am not saying anything all inclusive, I'm just going by averages.

 

[PainKiller69]

I am white, sub-saharan african, and native american. Yet, when I get accepted I will be docked as a Native American URM. This helps schools feel more diversified.

The discrepancy between what comes across on paper and what has been your life for the past 20+ years is the element of AA that is bothersome to many. Noone is against helping the truly needy. However, those who have finished 4 years of undergrad and achieved high GPA and MCAT scores clearly don't need any extra help. They have their shiat together.

AA comes into play after the poor have surmounted all odds of not going to college and making great grades while helping their families survive. Isn't offering them a crutch at that stage akin to offering a man assistance in plopping down on a nice couch after finishing a grueling marathon without wearing shoes.

 

[Lokhtar]

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/journal_of_...6.1frazer.html
.".Minority medical graduates are four times more likely than whites to practice in underserved areas, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges"

AAMC has this 129 pg report, but i wont sift through it atm.

This should end the debate right there. The job of the medical schools is to do the best for the health of the nation, and this is it right there. It's not their job to take the highest GPAs. It's their job to do what will be best for healthcare.

Sucks for you if you didn't get in, its not their job to increase doctor/patient ratio in Hollywood.

 

[hopefuldoc87]

I am white, sub-saharan african, and native american. Yet, when I get accepted I will be docked as a Native American URM. This helps schools feel more diversified.

The discrepancy between what comes across on paper and what has been your life for the past 20+ years is the element of AA that is bothersome to many. Noone is against helping the truly needy. However, those who have finished 4 years of undergrad and achieved high GPA and MCAT scores clearly don't need any extra help. They have their shiat together.

AA comes into play after the poor have surmounted all odds of not going to college and making great grades while helping their families survive. Isn't offering them a crutch at that stage akin to offering a man assistance in plopping down on a nice couch after finishing a grueling marathon without wearing shoes.

So it's safe to assume based solely on the color of one's skin that insurmountable odds have been surmounted and they helped their families survive? If a person has done that, then by all means, special consideration does need to occur. I believe anyone that has a special story like that deserves special consideration, regardless of race. I just don't think that AA and help for disadvantaged applicants should be grouped in the same category. As lokhtar said, the majority of those in medical school are from well off backgrounds. I assume that does include African Americans as well, otherwise it would have been specified.

 

[WinterLights]

Even though they have a lower rate of acceptance than non-URM's, many people have posted the AAMC source saying the average GPA and MCAT of matriculants is lower than the national average. I'm not saying I am anything special, because believe me, I'm not, but doesn't this stat sort of show the advantage?

I still do not see how this is an advantage. If the average African American matriculant has a lower GPA/MCAT but also has less of a chance of getting accepted (when competing with other African Americans), then what advantage do they have? Would you want to be an African American competing against other African Americans, having only a 42% chance of being accepted? I would rather be a non-URM and be competing against other non-URM's, having a 52% chance of acceptance. What most people are trying to do is assert that African American applicants and non-URM's are competing for spots, when in fact they are not--it is safe to assume that most medical schools have a general number of seats reserved for each demographic. If more URMs were accepted than non-URM's, then these people would have an entirely legitimate grievance. . . but when I see that only 16% of all seats are going to all URM's, then I cannot even think of a reason for complaining.

As for the non-URM economic background also taken into account, I'm pretty sure it's not as much as the advantage a URM would have. Again, I have no sources, this is just my opinion. So take it with a grain of salt.

For the record, believe it or not, I am for AA. I think it's important to have diversity in the medical field.

This, is purely conjecture. Unless you have some source for this belief than you should not put too much weight in it.

 

[WinterLights]

I am white, sub-saharan african, and native american. Yet, when I get accepted I will be docked as a Native American URM. This helps schools feel more diversified.

The discrepancy between what comes across on paper and what has been your life for the past 20+ years is the element of AA that is bothersome to many. Noone is against helping the truly needy. However, those who have finished 4 years of undergrad and achieved high GPA and MCAT scores clearly don't need any extra help. They have their shiat together.

AA comes into play after the poor have surmounted all odds of not going to college and making great grades while helping their families survive. Isn't offering them a crutch at that stage akin to offering a man assistance in plopping down on a nice couch after finishing a grueling marathon without wearing shoes.

This is not true. You are extremely unlikely to find many applicants that have made it through college with great grades if their lives have been a literal hell. As has been stated numerous times, most of the URM applicants have lower stats than average. For people that are considered URM and have amazing stats, they would have gotten accepted regardless of such status. URM policies are not applied to people who have come from economically disadvantaged backgrounds. That is what disadvantaged status is for. URM policies are meant to ensure "racial" diversity within medicine;an attempt to reflect the demographics of our nation in the medical field. And while I do think that disadvantaged status should be taken into more consideration than "race," I also believe that it is extremely important to maintain such diversity within the medicine (or any other profession.) Not because I think that URM's will go back to underserved communities, but because I believe that it is necessary for all fields to accurately reflect the make-up of our country.

You do not have to apply as a URM if you feel this way, no one is forcing you to do so. You can easily leave the ethnicity part of the application blank if you so choose. Do not take the crutch if you don't agree with it.

 

[hopefuldoc87]

I still do not see how this is an advantage. If the average African American matriculant has a lower GPA/MCAT but also has less of a chance of getting accepted (when competing with other African Americans), then what advantage do they have? Would you want to be an African American competing against other African Americans, having only a 42% chance of being accepted? I would rather be a non-URM and be competing against other non-URM's, having a 52% chance of acceptance. What most people are trying to do is assert that African American applicants and non-URM's are competing for spots, when if fact they are not--it is safe to assume that most medical schools have a general number of seats reserved for each demographic. If more URMs were accepted than non-URM's, then these people would have an entirely legitimate grievance. . . but when I see that only 16% of all seats are going to all URM's, then I cannot even think of a reason for complaining.



This, is purely conjecture. Unless you have some source for this belief than you should not put too much weight in it.

I was not aware that certain seats were reserved for each demographic, nor have I ever seen proof of that. But again, it could be true, and if it is, then there IS no reason for anyone to complain if it isn't going to affect their chances.

As for what you said regarding my post being conjecture, did you not read the sentence right after? I said its purely opinion, and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Anyways, theres no point in arguing, but always good to have a healthy debate . In the end, all this is not going to matter. What's going to matter is how good of a doctor we are, and how much we helped served society.

Best of luck to all applicants.