Is an MD the way to go for money? prestige?

[aurevoir0711]

I am a non-trad applicant who had acceptance to top financial engineering master's program, but declined it in the end. I started med school at 32. I can already tell from the vibe of the post that you would not be happy with med school or being a physician. Being a physician is a lot more demanding than anybody can ever imagine. It's a process one cannot truly understand until going through the rigorous curriculum of med school and residency.

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[BioPsychotic]

I would echo that you should enter medicine because you find it internally rewarding. Money can be found more easily in other fields, and prestige is dependent on who you speak to. Society as a whole does value physicians, but I personally choose not to live my life based on other peoples’ opinion of me.

 

[Proudfather94]

I would echo that you should enter medicine because you find it internally rewarding. Money can be found more easily in other fields, and prestige is dependent on who you speak to. Society as a whole does value physicians, but I personally choose not to live my life based on other peoples’ opinion of me.

I think a lot of doctors go to medical school due to their desire to please their parents and their family. Pushing your kid into choosing a career so that you can obtain bragging rights and say you're a great parent is toxic af and needs to get called out more often.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I am a non-trad applicant who had acceptance to top financial engineering master's program, but declined it in the end. I started med school at 32. I can already tell from the vibe of the post that you would not be happy with med school or being a physician. Being a physician is a lot more demanding than anybody can ever imagine. It's a process one cannot truly understand until going through the rigorous curriculum of med school and residency.

Is this really true? I feel like once you become a physician, it’s a very low stress job compared to most. It’s not like you have to worry about getting fired because you miss some benchmark by a few percentage points. I have never known a doctor who can’t find employment.

 

[Means]

Is this really true? I feel like once you become a physician, it’s a very low stress job compared to most. It’s not like you have to worry about getting fired because you miss some benchmark by a few percentage points. I have never known a doctor who can’t find employment.

It is a very stressful job and you absolutely CAN get fired for missing a benchmark by a few %. Add onto that the fact that you have to worry about not getting sued, not killing anyone, and spending the majority of your working hours doing dictations.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

A little more. I lived in CA, made 400, and took home 235 (+/- depending on the year). My effective tax rate between federal, state, SS and medicare hovered between 36-41%.

Note that about half my comp was RSUs, which are subject to capital gains on the amount they appreciate if you sell them after a year, and ordinary income if before. They are still taxed as ordinary income at the time you are granted them.

I was guestimating to a degree. My effective tax rate was 24% last year here in the Mid Atlantic. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I was guestimating to a degree. My effective tax rate was 24% last year here in the Mid Atlantic. Thanks for the clarification.

Looks like retroactive SALT relief is in the final version of the bill. Should put some downward pressure on tax rates in these regions

 

[DoctorFate]

Looks like retroactive SALT relief is in the final version of the bill. Should put some downward pressure on tax rates in these regions

Bruh I love hearing this random info lol. Sends me on a Google search every time

 

[Goofy Goober]

haha, I used to live in a neighborhood that was in America's 25 richest counties. I don't know a single household here that makes below 250k. The average home is worth about 600-800k. My friends all argue with me that we are middle class, maybe upper middle class at best.

I was like bruh, at minimum we make 4x middle class. Some of you guys make 10x or more. What kinda middle class income is this lol.

Sounds like Suburban hell

 

[DoctorFate]

Sounds like Suburban hell

Considering the crime rate was nearly nonexistent, it definitely want hell haha. The worst crime we had recently was a robbery where the parents were out and the kids were in a different room playing video games, and didn't notice two men literally just walk in through the door and strip the house of all valuables over two hours lolol.

 

[jstwannagraduaaate!!!]

Late to the party but yes and yes. I think those that say no to either haven't worked a real world job or they just know the other top 1% of investment bankers and FAANG workers (and its a lot easier to network with these people as a doc). I have noticed that people in medicine kind of shiver when you mention prestige, but its true. I go home for breaks (just got back now), hang out with friends, go to bars and meet people; and every random group of strangers (especially from the opposite sex) we run into are always the most interested in my career out of my friend group(I am just a med student) and all my other friends I hang out with are non med students. Idk maybe they think Im the best looking haha but being a med student has grabbed a lot of attention and Im sure being a doc does the same. I have also gotten a lot of respect shown to me by older folks when they find out I am a med student. As far as money goes, you take on debt and watch your friends make solid cash and be able to really enjoy their 20s. BUT you will more than likely pass them in net worth in your mid to late 30s if you are smart with money.

But do not go into med school because you want those two things, med school is hard and there are lots of sacrifices. I think the two things that you are interested in are byproducts of the journey, you cannot go into this journey with those two things (money and prestige) being your goals. Those who want to become CEOs and the like do not have a goal of being CEO, they want to serve their company the best and be a team player and get the job; while those whos goal is to become CEO typically dont make it, as they are just focused soley on the result, not the sacrifices or the journey that it takes to get there.

 

[BioPsychotic]

Late to the party but yes and yes. I think those that say no to either haven't worked a real world job or they just know the other top 1% of investment bankers and FAANG workers (and its a lot easier to network with these people as a doc). I have noticed that people in medicine kind of shiver when you mention prestige, but its true. I go home for breaks (just got back now), hang out with friends, go to bars and meet people; and every random group of strangers (especially from the opposite sex) we run into are always the most interested in my career out of my friend group(I am just a med student) and all my other friends I hang out with are non med students. Idk maybe they think Im the best looking haha but being a med student has grabbed a lot of attention and Im sure being a doc does the same. I have also gotten a lot of respect shown to me by older folks when they find out I am a med student. As far as money goes, you take on debt and watch your friends make solid cash and be able to really enjoy their 20s. BUT you will more than likely pass them in net worth in your mid to late 30s if you are smart with money.

But do not go into med school because you want those two things, med school is hard and there are lots of sacrifices. I think the two things that you are interested in are byproducts of the journey, you cannot go into this journey with those two things (money and prestige) being your goals. Those who want to become CEOs and the like do not have a goal of being CEO, they want to serve their company the best and be a team player and get the job; while those whos goal is to become CEO typically dont make it, as they are just focused soley on the result, not the sacrifices or the journey that it takes to get there.

It's true. I know a software engineer who tells me that when he's out with friends, people pounce on the person who is a doctor. Doesn't hurt that they're usually pretty fit -- I suppose that putting health at the center of your career tends to make a person pretty health-conscious.

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

Accounting is incredibly boring but accountants who stay in public accounting come out ahead(financially) of primary care doctors over the course of their career. No four years of medical school and compounding debt required. At most a 1 year master's in accounting if you can't fit all of the credits in during undergrad. And right now the firms are hiring anyone with an accounting degree and pulse.

 

[allseasons]

Accounting is incredibly boring but accountants who stay in public accounting come out ahead(financially) of primary care doctors over the course of their career. No four years of medical school and compounding debt required. At most a 1 year master's in accounting if you can't fit all of the credits in during undergrad. And right now the firms are hiring anyone with an accounting degree and pulse.

the average salary of a masters in accounting is 72k. the average doctor PCP makes 200k+ with around 200k debt. can you show me a chart or something of how the 72k comes out ahead (probably has 50k debt).

 

[aurevoir0711]

the average salary of a masters in accounting is 72k. the average doctor PCP makes 200k+ with around 200k debt. can you show me a chart or something of how the 72k comes out ahead (probably has 50k debt).

They get a raise unlike doctors. Climbing a ladder is not that easy though, especially once you get to mid-level.

 

[aurevoir0711]

Late to the party but yes and yes. I think those that say no to either haven't worked a real world job or they just know the other top 1% of investment bankers and FAANG workers (and its a lot easier to network with these people as a doc). I have noticed that people in medicine kind of shiver when you mention prestige, but its true. I go home for breaks (just got back now), hang out with friends, go to bars and meet people; and every random group of strangers (especially from the opposite sex) we run into are always the most interested in my career out of my friend group(I am just a med student) and all my other friends I hang out with are non med students. Idk maybe they think Im the best looking haha but being a med student has grabbed a lot of attention and Im sure being a doc does the same. I have also gotten a lot of respect shown to me by older folks when they find out I am a med student. As far as money goes, you take on debt and watch your friends make solid cash and be able to really enjoy their 20s. BUT you will more than likely pass them in net worth in your mid to late 30s if you are smart with money.

But do not go into med school because you want those two things, med school is hard and there are lots of sacrifices. I think the two things that you are interested in are byproducts of the journey, you cannot go into this journey with those two things (money and prestige) being your goals. Those who want to become CEOs and the like do not have a goal of being CEO, they want to serve their company the best and be a team player and get the job; while those whos goal is to become CEO typically dont make it, as they are just focused soley on the result, not the sacrifices or the journey that it takes to get there.

I've been in both and I can tell you with confidence that while physicians make more money, the amount of effort/time they need to spend to get to where they need to be is absolutely incredible. They not only have to maintain what they have learned, but also stay up to date with new guidelines and treatments. Going through numerous board exams is by no means easy. Becoming a physician is a HUGE commitment and I really hope that people understand this before signing up.

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

the average salary of a masters in accounting is 72k. the average doctor PCP makes 200k+ with around 200k debt. can you show me a chart or something of how the 72k comes out ahead (probably has 50k debt).

Read my post a little closer. The $72,000 figure you quoted is probably the average for all types of accountants; public, industry, government, etc. My post was specifically about public accountants. Public accountants start in the $50,000s and if they stay in public accounting, end up in the mid $200,000 as a director (if they don't make partner) or up to several multiples of that if they do make partner.

https://www.big4transparency.com/

Currently, I'm a career switcher, medical school reapplicant who works at one of the big 4 public accounting firms. In addition to the self-reported salary data above(that I've cross-referenced with other sources), I socialize with other accountants so I know the career and salary progression of this career pretty well.

One great thing about accounting is that you don't have to graduate from a prestigious (expensive) private school to get a job. I graduated from a cheap state university that generally places around 100 according to US News and easily had multiple offers at graduation. But, again, the job itself is mind-numbingly boring in my opinion.

 

[collegestud2013]

Medicine is probably still the more stable career and more likely to guarantee a solid upper middle class lifestyle, despite all the ongoing changes to the U.S. healthcare system and all the crap you have to get through as pre-med, medical school, residency, etc.....

Tech is is much more uncertain since the demand for tech services fluctuates much more rapidly, and while the barrier to entry is much lower and you can make more money faster, the average tech person makes more like $100-200k per year and has less job stability, and works much more than just 40 hrs a week. The lower barrier to entry means more foreign competition as it's much easier for an employer to outsource your job to someone in another country that will work for significantly less. Yes, some people working in tech will make $500-600k working for FAANG or more but that's the exception and only for a small percentage of tech workers as the top.

Also, fields like law, finance, consulting are similar in that a small percentage of the people at the top make most of the money, while the majority of employees will on average make less than most physicians and not be able to reach those top positions.

 

[Kmani6]

Read my post a little closer. The $72,000 figure you quoted is probably the average for all types of accountants; public, industry, government, etc. My post was specifically about public accountants. Public accountants start in the $50,000s and if they stay in public accounting, end up in the mid $200,000 as a director (if they don't make partner) or up to several multiples of that if they do make partner.

https://www.big4transparency.com/

Currently, I'm a career switcher, medical school reapplicant who works at one of the big 4 public accounting firms. In addition to the self-reported salary data above(that I've cross-referenced with other sources), I socialize with other accountants so I know the career and salary progression of this career pretty well.

One great thing about accounting is that you don't have to graduate from a prestigious (expensive) private school to get a job. I graduated from a cheap state university that generally places around 100 according to US News and easily had multiple offers at graduation. But, again, the job itself is mind-numbingly boring in my opinion.

Can confirm everything about this post is correct. My brother is a public accountant at a big 4 firm and is 7 years older than me, so I have seen his career progression. At this stage he either becomes a partner or some sort of senior director. The field is definitely lucrative.

The biggest mistake IMO on this thread is comparing the average doctor to the average [insert any field]. The truth is most of the pre-med students that are smart/hard working enough to get into med schools (think high GPA, extremely strong ECs relative to normal college students, and MCAT) could definitely get into top firms/companies in other fields like accounting/finance/tech/engineering with the same or likely significantly less effort.

As long as you have a good GPA in college (and this isn't even necessary bc networking itself can literally get you in) + some basic ECs you can get into these firms.

Becoming a physician is like being at the top of the medical field compared to other healthcare professionals like CRNAs, PAs, RNs, etc. ( in terms of difficulty to get in/training required). So a much better comparison would be the average physician to those earners at the top of their accounting/finance/tech/engineering/other fields.

 

[aurevoir0711]

Becoming a physician is like being at the top of the medical field compared to other healthcare professionals like CRNAs, PAs, RNs, etc. ( in terms of difficulty to get in/training required). So a much better comparison would be the average physician to those earners at the top of their accounting/finance/tech/engineering/other fields.

This is a true statement. Most students who are capable of making it through medical school and residency are probably capable of getting a very competitive position in other fields. I've noticed that many of my medical school colleagues are extroverted and sociable, which can be a huge plus when you work at a big firm. I do not have any doubt that all these people would have been successful if they pursued other careers.

However, one question I have is whether they would have worked as hard as they did now if they were in a different environment. Most medical students persevere because they have to, required by either the school, board exams, preparing for residency, or whatnot. Sacrificing many weekends and even holidays is not uncommon. The environment of physician training is unique, naturally molding students and residents to become productive and hardworking.

I certainly would have been much less productive if I was not in medical school, and I think it is fair to assume that many people would be similar. Most medical students would have been successful in other careers, but finding the drive and incentive to work their butt off all the time would have been more challenging.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Can confirm everything about this post is correct. My brother is a public accountant at a big 4 firm and is 7 years older than me, so I have seen his career progression. At this stage he either becomes a partner or some sort of senior director. The field is definitely lucrative.

The biggest mistake IMO on this thread is comparing the average doctor to the average [insert any field]. The truth is most of the pre-med students that are smart/hard working enough to get into med schools (think high GPA, extremely strong ECs relative to normal college students, and MCAT) could definitely get into top firms/companies in other fields like accounting/finance/tech/engineering with the same or likely significantly less effort.

As long as you have a good GPA in college (and this isn't even necessary bc networking itself can literally get you in) + some basic ECs you can get into these firms.

Becoming a physician is like being at the top of the medical field compared to other healthcare professionals like CRNAs, PAs, RNs, etc. ( in terms of difficulty to get in/training required). So a much better comparison would be the average physician to those earners at the top of their accounting/finance/tech/engineering/other fields.

I can only speak to finance (particularly investment banking, private equity, and other buy side roles), but in general attrition rates are much higher than medicine. I would say that at a firm like Goldman Sachs or JPM, about 5% of entry level employees will ever become Managing Directors and or Partners. Then an additional 15% move onto to PE /HF roles. Maybe a percentage of those end up working at Megafund shops (think KKR, Apollo, Carlyle etc.). Any of the above individuals will make at least twice the average physician’s salary (and more realistically 4-5x).

In addition to high attrition, there is also tremendous pressure, even at the top, to outperform. For example, Raj Rajaratnam, the billionaire founder of Galleon Group, must have felt enough pressure to engage in insider trading(leading to a decade in prison and loss of his firm). Many of my college friends who went into finance have already left to do MBAs in hopes of making a career change to less stressful business development or corporate finance roles, knowing it will mean taking a significant pay cut.

I still think that tech rivals medicine in terms of work life balance but I don’t know enough about the jobs to comment further.

 

[Doctoscope]

I can only speak to finance (particularly investment banking, private equity, and other buy side roles), but in general attrition rates are much higher than medicine. I would say that at a firm like Goldman Sachs or JPM, about 5% of entry level employees will ever become Managing Directors and or Partners. Then an additional 15% move onto to PE /HF roles. Maybe a percentage of those end up working at Megafund shops (think KKR, Apollo, Carlyle etc.). Any of the above individuals will make at least twice the average physician’s salary (and more realistically 4-5x).

In addition to high attrition, there is also tremendous pressure, even at the top, to outperform. For example, Raj Rajaratnam, the billionaire founder of Galleon Group, must have felt enough pressure to engage in insider trading(leading to a decade in prison and loss of his firm). Many of my college friends who went into finance have already left to do MBAs in hopes of making a career change to less stressful business development or corporate finance roles, knowing it will mean taking a significant pay cut.

I still think that tech rivals medicine in terms of work life balance but I don’t know enough about the jobs to comment further.

If you're good at SWE (I mean actually good) and a great problem solver, I would argue tech has a greater work-life balance and financial return than medicine. But then again, not everyone can operate at that top level.

 

[deleted1114112]

I can only speak to finance (particularly investment banking, private equity, and other buy side roles), but in general attrition rates are much higher than medicine. I would say that at a firm like Goldman Sachs or JPM, about 5% of entry level employees will ever become Managing Directors and or Partners. Then an additional 15% move onto to PE /HF roles. Maybe a percentage of those end up working at Megafund shops (think KKR, Apollo, Carlyle etc.). Any of the above individuals will make at least twice the average physician’s salary (and more realistically 4-5x).

In addition to high attrition, there is also tremendous pressure, even at the top, to outperform. For example, Raj Rajaratnam, the billionaire founder of Galleon Group, must have felt enough pressure to engage in insider trading(leading to a decade in prison and loss of his firm). Many of my college friends who went into finance have already left to do MBAs in hopes of making a career change to less stressful business development or corporate finance roles, knowing it will mean taking a significant pay cut.

I still think that tech rivals medicine in terms of work life balance but I don’t know enough about the jobs to comment further.

If you're good at SWE (I mean actually good) and a great problem solver, I would argue tech has a greater work-life balance and financial return than medicine. But then again, not everyone can operate at that top level.

If you have a good profile and come from a name brand undergrad, it absolutely is. I have many friends who majored in CS and even math who weren't even that bright but are pulling offers above 200k at mid-level startups or trading firms requiring 30 hours/week...this hasn't made me rethink my decision, but it would definitely be a massive blow to have to pay full tuition at any MD school with the possibility that 8 years down the line I could get a job making less than my friends' intro SWE/HF/trading jobs (~200-300k). I even have one friend who worked at AWS for 2 summers (including COVID), had solid research, and is now sitting with a job offer paying 290k at a hedge fund after graduating in 3.5 years (obviously an anomaly, but according to him not necessarily so these days). I totally hate CS and like the biology and science in medicine, and obviously the job itself, and anything above a certain limit to me is a lot of money; but in a vacuum it's still pretty egregious.

This is definitely when the idea of 'average' comes in to play. The biggest argument I see on forums and reddit ALL THE TIME is that "hur durr the average SWE kid makes like 80k max and works 80 hours a week as a cog in a machine doing monkey work" like lmao ya'll have no idea what you are talking about. I don't either but unless the people at my school and close circle are both the luckiest people on the planet or just hidden geniuses, I don't believe it. Obviously above 250k is rare, very rare in fact, but you can't convince me that 190-210 isn't common.

 

[L1lBoat]

Once you reach a certain salary you'll be wanting to chase something else...

 

[DoctorFate]

If you have a good profile and come from a name brand undergrad, it absolutely is. I have many friends who majored in CS and even math who weren't even that bright but are pulling offers above 200k at mid-level startups or trading firms requiring 30 hours/week...this hasn't made me rethink my decision, but it would definitely be a massive blow to have to pay full tuition at any MD school with the possibility that 8 years down the line I could get a job making less than my friends' intro SWE/HF/trading jobs (~200-300k). I even have one friend who worked at AWS for 2 summers (including COVID), had solid research, and is now sitting with a job offer paying 290k at a hedge fund after graduating in 3.5 years (obviously an anomaly, but according to him not necessarily so these days). I totally hate CS and like the biology and science in medicine, and obviously the job itself, and anything above a certain limit to me is a lot of money; but in a vacuum it's still pretty egregious.

This is definitely when the idea of 'average' comes in to play. The biggest argument I see on forums and reddit ALL THE TIME is that "hur durr the average SWE kid makes like 80k max and works 80 hours a week as a cog in a machine doing monkey work" like lmao ya'll have no idea what you are talking about. I don't either but unless the people at my school and close circle are both the luckiest people on the planet or just hidden geniuses, I don't believe it. Obviously above 250k is rare, very rare in fact, but you can't convince me that 190-210 isn't common.

I mean, it's not common. You can look at published salary data and see that the average grad makes about 80k.

The thing is, it is very hard to get into medicine, so as someone said earlier, you can't necessarily compare the averages of both, but rather the average doctor to the top of CS. From what I can tell, at that level, CS makes about the same as medicine, just 7 years earlier, which is an important differentiator.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I mean, it's not common. You can look at published salary data and see that the average grad makes about 80k.

The thing is, it is very hard to get into medicine, so as someone said earlier, you can't necessarily compare the averages of both, but rather the average doctor to the top of CS. From what I can tell, at that level, CS makes about the same as medicine, just 7 years earlier, which is an important differentiator.

I also read an article earlier today about how Google was not going to do company wide salary bumps to keep up with cost of living increases due to inflation. Obviously most Google employees make enough already to comfortably adjust, but it made me wonder whether the labor market for tech employees has already seen its best days. Unlike medicine, where the supply of workers is limited by the amount of medical school seats, tech/it has an almost unlimited labor supply. I believe that CS majors have become so popular in the past 5 years that it may eventually bring down salaries.

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

I also read an article earlier today about how Google was not going to do company wide salary bumps to keep up with cost of living increases due to inflation. Obviously most Google employees make enough already to comfortably adjust, but it made me wonder whether the labor market for tech employees has already seen its best days. Unlike medicine, where the supply of workers is limited by the amount of medical school seats, tech/it has an almost unlimited labor supply. I believe that CS majors have become so popular in the past 5 years that it may eventually bring down salaries.

I've always heard the best years for medicine were the 1970s and 1980s. Now with medicare for all more of a "when" not an "if", I feel like there's a lot of risk financially to becoming a physician who financed medical school with student loans. I'm looking at a cool half million after residency due in part to a little debt from before medical school.

If all I cared about was money, I'd definitely stay in financial services. But it's soul sucking boring in my opinion.

 

[allseasons]

I've always heard the best years for medicine were the 1970s and 1980s. Now with medicare for all more of a "when" not an "if", I feel like there's a lot of risk financially to becoming a physician who financed medical school with student loans. I'm looking at a cool half million after residency due in part to a little debt from before medical school.

If all I cared about was money, I'd definitely stay in financial services. But it's soul sucking boring in my opinion.

yea. Honestly, SDN has made me realize that half the importance of getting into a "top" med school comes down more to finances than prestige or how much it helps for residency. I interviewed at a variety of places, and most top schools have over half the class graduating with full tuition, either through need or merit. Most of the remaining are getting about half tuition.

 

[jstwannagraduaaate!!!]

If you have a good profile and come from a name brand undergrad, it absolutely is. I have many friends who majored in CS and even math who weren't even that bright but are pulling offers above 200k at mid-level startups or trading firms requiring 30 hours/week...this hasn't made me rethink my decision, but it would definitely be a massive blow to have to pay full tuition at any MD school with the possibility that 8 years down the line I could get a job making less than my friends' intro SWE/HF/trading jobs (~200-300k). I even have one friend who worked at AWS for 2 summers (including COVID), had solid research, and is now sitting with a job offer paying 290k at a hedge fund after graduating in 3.5 years (obviously an anomaly, but according to him not necessarily so these days). I totally hate CS and like the biology and science in medicine, and obviously the job itself, and anything above a certain limit to me is a lot of money; but in a vacuum it's still pretty egregious.

This is definitely when the idea of 'average' comes in to play. The biggest argument I see on forums and reddit ALL THE TIME is that "hur durr the average SWE kid makes like 80k max and works 80 hours a week as a cog in a machine doing monkey work" like lmao ya'll have no idea what you are talking about. I don't either but unless the people at my school and close circle are both the luckiest people on the planet or just hidden geniuses, I don't believe it. Obviously above 250k is rare, very rare in fact, but you can't convince me that 190-210 isn't common.

Well most people like myself did not go to a prestigious undergrad where we can walk into these offers. I went to a well known and respected state school and all my friends who majored in engineering and business are making 60-130k with a career celling of 200-250k, and theyre putting in 50 hour weeks. I know for a fact that financially I made the right choice going into medicine, not everyone going into medicine would magically be great in other fields.

 

[jstwannagraduaaate!!!]

I've always heard the best years for medicine were the 1970s and 1980s. Now with medicare for all more of a "when" not an "if", I feel like there's a lot of risk financially to becoming a physician who financed medical school with student loans. I'm looking at a cool half million after residency due in part to a little debt from before medical school.

If all I cared about was money, I'd definitely stay in financial services. But it's soul sucking boring in my opinion.

People have been saying this since the early 2000s. But if you want to be protected against a potential gov take over, enter a field that is elective and focuses on quality of life, you can "own the patients", have the ability to switch to cash only (ie patients will be willing to pay for it and it is not unethical to deny a patient, like denying a patient having an emergent stent put in for $ etc etc), and do procedures outside of the hospital/are not dependent on the hospital. So basically: ENT, pain, optho, plastics, uro, derm, allergy, ortho, psyc, general practice

 

[Dogruffle01]

Well most people like myself did not go to a prestigious undergrad where we can walk into these offers. I went to a well known and respected state school and all my friends who majored in engineering and business are making 60-130k with a career celling of 200-250k, and theyre putting in 50 hour weeks. I know for a fact that financially I made the right choice going into medicine, not everyone going into medicine would magically be great in other fields.

I think this is what people don’t understand.

People like to say the average premed is equal to a high tier CS major , which I don’t think is true.

My friends who got into Google and Microsoft are way more math inclined than me.
They were taking linear algebra and classes in AI while I was in Calculus II.

I dropped python because I just couldn’t grasp the material in the speed the glass was going, and I don’t think I’m a dumb guy.

I once saw my roommate look at seemingly infinite lines of code to find like 3 small errors to make it work. Coding is hard, and not everyone can do it.

 

[allseasons]

I think this is what people don’t understand.

People like to say the average premed is equal to a high tier CS major , which I don’t think is true.

My friends who got into Google and Microsoft are way more math inclined than me.
They were taking linear algebra and classes in AI while I was in Calculus II.

I dropped python because I just couldn’t grasp the material in the speed the glass was going, and I don’t think I’m a dumb guy.

I once saw my roommate look at seemingly infinite lines of code to find like 3 small errors to make it work. Coding is hard, and not everyone can do it.

It’s funny, FAANG workers probably say how easy it is to get into med school “ just show up to volunteering and take “basic physics”. Intelligence doesn’t always transfer over.

you're right, intelligence doesn't transfer over.
however, I know a lot of FAANG workers (I'm a CS major, friends went to T25 CS unis and got 200k+ jobs out of undergrad, with the maximum earning guy making 350k), and not a single one has ever said getting into med school is easy. In fact, they universally believe getting into a 200k job in tech is easier that the full medical pathway (not just entry to med school) and all are glad they didn't choose med. Concerning just entry to med school, they think making a low ranked med school is easier than getting a 200k+ job, a mid tier uni (T50-100) is about equal, and getting in T50 is harder. The 350k guy thinks getting a job like that is about as hard as making T20. Not saying these are true or comparable, just sharing their thoughts.

However, the major differentiator here is that your undergrad matters much more for CS (and even more for finance) than med school. My friend at Penn did pre-med for 2 years, switched to CS and got a 200k job at Pixar with 0 prior job experience and is now 25 making 350k at amazon in machine learning. Meanwhile, from my state uni, about 1 person a year makes Google, and a total of 3 people max are making anywhere near 200k. The general grad salary is about 80k.

It's worth noting that FAANG isn't even the highest end of tech, just the higher end. FAANG is the equivalent of T20. The real highest end (T5 equivalent) are quants, HFTs, unicorn startups, places like Citadel. Citadel's starting salary for a new grad averages 350k. Machine Learning PhDs (undergrad + 4-5 years) into FAANG can make around 400k starting, and if they can get into quants and HFTs they can make 700k. Again, this is very dependent on a combination of your school + your job/research experience.

Why does a senior software engineer make $430,000/year at fintech companies like Citadel but only $265,000/year at Google (according to G...

Answer (1 of 6): The base salary is quite similar. The major difference is with the cash bonus. Bonuses are a big deal in the finance world, less so in tech. They are also easier to give. If your team singlehandedly created a $30 million windfall in the course of a year due to a new algorithm or...

www.quora.com

One other important point to note is that these guys aren't making their income in cash, but a large portion of it is stocks that take years to vest. If something happened (like a year ago with COVID) and stocks crashed, their salary could cut in half or more depending on the ratio of salary to stock. The flip side is their salary can also dramatically rise. One of my friends began working for Tesla mid pandemic when the stock price was about $100. He is went from a net worth under $100k to over a millionaire in a year.

 

[Banco]

Compared to the average person, you will definitely make significantly more money (even as an "average" physician and with loans taken into account) - and in certain specialties you will make tons. Prestige is a relative and largely made-up concept - but in general society you will have a good amount of respect. But then again we see how a large subset of the population thinks medicine is a hoax...

That being said, you need to have some genuine interest and intrinsic motivation beyond the money/prestige, because the path there is arduous. And if you're hardworking/talented enough to grit through medical school/residency, then you're likely also able to apply that work ethic in other fields where the life isn't as hard.

 

[allseasons]

Compared to the average person, you will definitely make significantly more money (even as an "average" physician and with loans taken into account) - and in certain specialties you will make tons. Prestige is a relative and largely made-up concept - but in general society you will have a good amount of respect. But then again we see how a large subset of the population thinks medicine is a hoax...

That being said, you need to have some genuine interest and intrinsic motivation beyond the money/prestige, because the path there is arduous. And if you're hardworking/talented enough to grit through medical school/residency, then you're likely also able to apply that work ethic in other fields where the life isn't as hard.

tbh, at least in my experience, the vast majority of people that think allopathic medicine is BS still respect doctors for going through a difficult process and believe them to be successful and intelligent (in the book smart sense).

 

[deleted1114112]

Well most people like myself did not go to a prestigious undergrad where we can walk into these offers. I went to a well known and respected state school and all my friends who majored in engineering and business are making 60-130k with a career celling of 200-250k, and theyre putting in 50 hour weeks. I know for a fact that financially I made the right choice going into medicine, not everyone going into medicine would magically be great in other fields.

I mean sure but it's very easy to get an extremely substantial salary bump after 8 years in the workforce; in fact most data shows that even if you start around 80-120k earlier (still a boat load of money) as an 'average' CS grad, it is very easy to break over 200k with ~5.5 years of work and a solid understanding of the process. Also the issue isn't that prestigious grads are just better job applicants by virtue of going to said school (still relevant, but not an end-all-be-all), it's that they are usually pushed to gain more experience and have developed portfolios prior to applications. You'd be surprised at the amount of people who, come job seeking time, both a) do not know wtf they are doing at the moment b) did not know wtf they were doing at any point beforehand and thus c) have a lackluster if not non-existence portfolio, research, or really any practically relevant experience. Honestly that in itself goes to show how insane the field is, in that you can essentially do nothing except get a decent GPA and still land a job paying ~100k. Also I have no idea where the 200-250k ceiling for computer science for 'average' grads came into play because that is de facto false.

 

[jstwannagraduaaate!!!]

I mean sure but it's very easy to get an extremely substantial salary bump after 8 years in the workforce; in fact most data shows that even if you start around 80-120k earlier (still a boat load of money) as an 'average' CS grad, it is very easy to break over 200k with ~5.5 years of work and a solid understanding of the process. Also the issue isn't that prestigious grads are just better job applicants by virtue of going to said school (still relevant, but not an end-all-be-all), it's that they are usually pushed to gain more experience and have developed portfolios prior to applications. You'd be surprised at the amount of people who, come job seeking time, both a) do not know wtf they are doing at the moment b) did not know wtf they were doing at any point beforehand and thus c) have a lackluster if not non-existence portfolio, research, or really any practically relevant experience. Honestly that in itself goes to show how insane the field is, in that you can essentially do nothing except get a decent GPA and still land a job paying ~100k. Also I have no idea where the 200-250k ceiling for computer science for 'average' grads came into play because that is de facto false.

First of all all of the people I know are in their late 20s making this kind of cash, none are CS, they are petroleum, chemical, mechanical engineers and finance bros. This site is seriously delusional on how easy it is to make money

 

[deleted1114112]

First of all all of the people I know are in their late 20s making this kind of cash, none are CS, they are petroleum, chemical, mechanical engineers and finance bros. This site is seriously delusional on how easy it is to make money

I mean, your anecdotal evidence is as good as mine, lmao. Also the stats don't lie, almost all of this CS career progression is freely available. To be clear I'm not saying it's a cakewalk—making 200k or even 150k+ is difficult and getting into positions where you can get into those careers is difficult. But we're talking about relative difficulty/stats here, isn't that the point? No one's saying it's easy to make hundreds of thousands in a vacuum; but even then, you could make that argument for CS...hell the average CS graduate salary for my state school, ranked below 50 nationally but a bit higher for CS according to USNews, is 111k.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Since the main topic of this thread seems to be money, I thought I would post some of my impressions regarding prestige of medicine based on a recent experience. The other day, I was looking through some of the biographies for trustee members of the undergrad university that I attended. I noticed that nearly all of them had backgrounds in finance/law, and surprisingly, not a single one had a background in medicine. Not many had tech backgrounds either. I’m not necessarily sure what this says about the medical profession’s “prestige,” but I am guessing it means that the ceiling is higher for finance/law, floor is higher for medicine.

Other possibilities include:
-Physicians are too busy/have schedules that don’t permit quarterly travel to board meetings.
-personality of finance/law professionals is more conducive to being elected to the board.
-being a trustee is afforded to mega-donors, who are more likely to work in finance/law (mostly finance)

My 2cents.

 

[pawprint]

My girlfriend is a wedding photographer and makes 5k per wedding, shoots 2 weddings per weekend (frid/sat) from may - Oct. she finishes editing on Sunday/Monday working at home so she basically has a 4 day work week over the summer where half the time is working from home. She then spends the next 6 months off just vacationing and doing whatever she wants because she made about 250k in those 6 months.

I’m a doctor because I like working with sick patients. If anyone is in this for the money, the lifestyle isn’t worth it compared to lots of other jobs.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

My girlfriend is a wedding photographer and makes 5k per wedding, shoots 2 weddings per weekend (frid/sat) from may - Oct. she finishes editing on Sunday/Monday working at home so she basically has a 4 day work week over the summer where half the time is working from home. She then spends the next 6 months off just vacationing and doing whatever she wants because she made about 250k in those 6 months.

I’m a doctor because I like working with sick patients. If anyone is in this for the money, the lifestyle isn’t worth it compared to lots of other jobs.

What is the variance like? My first impression was that it would be high. But on second thought, people get married regardless of economic conditions.

 

[pawprint]

What is the variance like? My first impression was that it would be high. But on second thought, people get married regardless of economic conditions.

Yep, even in the pandemic, less people may show up for a wedding but that means the pictures are that much more important. She’s had that consistent income for the past 4 years. She could make more if she wanted to, but 2 weddings/weekend for 6 months is enough for her to enjoy her job without burning out.

I’ve got a couple plumber and electrician friends that live similar lifestyles. I think we are headed down the road of trade-based careers being the new glamor jobs due to their high-need and few people going into those professions. Working in healthcare isn’t as rare or glamorous as it used to be.

 

[allseasons]

Yep, even in the pandemic, less people may show up for a wedding but that means the pictures are that much more important. She’s had that consistent income for the past 4 years. She could make more if she wanted to, but 2 weddings/weekend for 6 months is enough for her to enjoy her job without burning out.

I’ve got a couple plumber and electrician friends that live similar lifestyles. I think we are headed down the road of trade-based careers being the new glamor jobs due to their high-need and few people going into those professions. Working in healthcare isn’t as rare or glamorous as it used to be.

I mean, idk man. one thing really missing here is consistency. Most wedding photographers are definitely not making 250k. How old is your gf?

 

[NobodyDPM]

For the time and money required to invest in your education, being a doctor does not equate.

I remember a study presented years ago where if you went right out of college, and became a HS teacher, over your lifetime, you would make equal money to a non sought after specialist in the medical field. Between time spent and the amount of student loans to pay back after the fact, you will no longer be "rich" being a doctor. Those days are loooooooong gone.

Unless of course you are in the upper echelons of surgical specialties. Like Plastics. Or very, very specialized medical ones. Like Endocrinology.

 

[allseasons]

For the time and money required to invest in your education, being a doctor does not equate.

I remember a study presented years ago where if you went right out of college, and became a HS teacher, over your lifetime, you would make equal money to a non sought after specialist in the medical field. Between time spent and the amount of student loans to pay back after the fact, you will no longer be "rich" being a doctor. Those days are loooooooong gone.

Unless of course you are in the upper echelons of surgical specialties. Like Plastics. Or very, very specialized medical ones. Like Endocrinology.

you have to remember that those entering med school are heavily skewed towards upper class. I think the average graduating debt is about 200k because of that. For most docs, paying back 200k in loans isn't terrible. Even in the lowest earning pathways (about 200k), paying off 200k would at about half your post tax income per year would take about 3 years and give you about 70-80k to live on during that time, which is the better end middle class. Afterward, even in the lowest paying pathways, you would be comfortably at the edge of upper middle class and lower upper class.

If instead you choose a moderately well paid specialty rather than the lowest paying pathways, you would make let's say 350k, on which you could pay off 200k in 2 years with an extra of about 125k left.

Of course, there are absolutely people with debts of 500k, but they tend to be a very very small percentage of graduates. I think people on this sub have a skewed definition of what rich really is, as an income of 250k puts you at the 97th percentile of income in the US. Like yes, unless you're in some massive private practice or very reputed in your field, you won't own a private jet, but idk man, doctors are definitely "rich" in that they're in the top 5% by income and most are probably end their career in at least the 90th percentile of household income by retirement (about 1 million net worth).

The only thing I agree with is that a lot of doctors aren't immediately rich the same year they become an attending. However, the overwhelming majority are well off by 40, and rich by 50, and honestly I'm probably overestimating the ages by around 5 years (especially the gap between well off and rich).

 

[YCAGA]

These FAANG/CS discussions are so dumb. For every T20 graduate making $200k at 23 and working 35 hrs/week type job there are ten middle managers making $150k at 55 and 20 more 30s and 40s somethings making $100-120k and working 50hrs/week jobs.

I need a macro on my keyboard to say that FAANG/unicorn startup tech jobs being sold as a career path more lucrative than medicine is like saying Mohs derm and ortho spine represent the lifestyle, competitiveness, and compensation in medicine.

 

[allseasons]

These FAANG/CS discussions are so dumb. For every T20 graduate making $200k at 23 and working 35 hrs/week type job there are ten middle managers making $150k at 55 and 20 more 30s and 40s somethings making $100-120k and working 50hrs/week jobs.

I need a macro on my keyboard to say that FAANG/unicorn startup tech jobs being sold as a career path more lucrative than medicine is like saying Mohs derm and ortho spine represent the lifestyle, competitiveness, and compensation in medicine.

I would disagree that the two are entirely comparable just because getting FAANG/unicorn startup tech jobs is definitely easier than going derm, much less mohs derm or ortho spine (is ortho spine even good lifestyle? I thought ortho lifestyle sucked? don't know too much about it though). Not just pulling that out of my ass, I am very very connected to the field. The difficulty of getting a FAANG job is probably most comparable to going anesthesiology (overall performance being the middle of the class). Mohs derm is more comparable to the 350k+ quant or HFT jobs in difficulty to get.

The one major variable in this though is that connections and prestige play a far more important role in tech than medicine. I have a friend that didn't have to really do anything exceptional to get a 200k+ job out of college as his parents and neighbors worked at pretty good companies and helped ensure their son interned at both in his freshman and sophomore year summers. Those experiences then helped him land a major internship junior summer. In medicine, having faculty connections certainly helps too, but not nearly to the same extent. Going to a T25 in tech helps massively with landing a 200k job. Going T20 in med gives an edge, but absolutely does not anywhere near guarantee a derm or similarly competitive residency.

The other thing is, all your "experiences" to build up your resume in tech pay really well. That guy struggling to get into FAANG is making $40 an hour in summer internships, or 20k in 3 months. That guy struggling to get into citadel is probably making $80 an hour in summer internships. The guy struggling to get into derm... is not.

 

[YCAGA]

I would disagree that the two are entirely comparable just because getting FAANG/unicorn startup tech jobs is definitely easier than going derm, much less mohs derm or ortho spine (is ortho spine even good lifestyle? I thought ortho lifestyle sucked? don't know too much about it though). Not just pulling that out of my ass, I am very very connected to the field. The difficulty of getting a FAANG job is probably most comparable to going anesthesiology (overall performance being the middle of the class). Mohs derm is more comparable to the 350k+ quant or HFT jobs in difficulty to get.

The one major variable in this though is that connections and prestige play a far more important role in tech than medicine. I have a friend that didn't have to really do anything exceptional to get a 200k+ job out of college as his parents and neighbors worked at pretty good companies and helped ensure their son interned at both in his freshman and sophomore year summers. Those experiences then helped him land a major internship junior summer. In medicine, having faculty connections certainly helps too, but not nearly to the same extent. Going to a T25 in tech helps massively with landing a 200k job. Going T20 in med gives an edge, but absolutely does not anywhere near guarantee a derm or similarly competitive residency.

Not sure if ortho spine is a "good" lifestyle but the median total comp is around $1 MM with the possibility of doing a lot of outpatient surgery (around $1 MM if you believe that MGMA median is a slight underestimation). The big factor would probably be call which is in turn dependent on a ton of upstream factors like practice size and makeup.

You make some good points but I think another way to look at it is what an average comp sci grad makes and does and what an average US med school grad does. The mode of physician practice is probably an IM hospitalist who makes $300k median and works 40hrs/week on average...actually let's say 45hrs/week since 7 on 7 off is not an easy 9 to 5. The mode for a comp sci grad is a mid-career salary of $115k and 40-50 hrs/week too.

7 more years of training for medicine but more than double the salary and therefore 4+ times the savings and retirement investment rate with a better lifestyle. The retirement age is only going to keep going up so it is not crazy for people in their 20s to not reach "official" retirement until their mid 70s.

 

[allseasons]

Not sure if ortho spine is a "good" lifestyle but the median total comp is around $1 MM with the possibility of doing a lot of outpatient surgery (around $1 MM if you believe that MGMA median is a slight underestimation). The big factor would probably be call which is in turn dependent on a ton of upstream factors like practice size and makeup.

You make some good points but I think another way to look at it is what an average comp sci grad makes and does and what an average US med school grad does. The mode of physician practice is probably an IM hospitalist who makes $300k median and works 40hrs/week on average...actually let's say 45hrs/week since 7 on 7 off is not an easy 9 to 5. The mode for a comp sci grad is a mid-career salary of $115k and 40-50 hrs/week too.

7 more years of training for medicine but more than double the salary and therefore 4+ times the savings and retirement investment rate with a better lifestyle. The retirement age is only going to keep going up so it is not crazy for people in their 20s to not reach "official" retirement until their mid 70s.

I totally get that point, but as we were saying earlier, the average comp sci grad has to put in way less effort to graduate than the average person finishing residency. 40% of applicants get into medical school. idk exact stats, but I would strongly bet 90%+ of CS grads (honestly probably 95%+) get CS jobs.

The skillset definitely isn't transferrable. I know a girl with a 3.9 gpa and her only non-A grades were in math classes. But still, I personally would side against comparing the averages of both like that when one is much harder to attain than the other. I used to think as you did, but the bell curve has a very wide spread in tech, and I've come to realize it's a lot more situational. Anyone in a T25 uni or with strong connections is pretty much guaranteed a 110k CS job at absolute minimum right out of college. For someone going to a random state uni in the middle of nowhere where literally 1 company paying over 100k recruits two people a year is likely going to have a better career outlook with pre-med.

If you want to compare more equally, look at the industry wages of PhD grads (which require almost as much training time as doctors). Since med schools have a 40% acceptance rate, let's compare to the top 40% of PhD grads in CS or DS (machine learning/AI/neural nets especially). The median starting income in industry for someone in this batch would be about 350k with a soft ceiling of around 700k for stanford/berkeley/MIT/caltech (and penn/harvard/georgia tech etc. to a smaller extent) grads. Their PhD is fully funded, so no debt. Plus, their work experiences during PhD typically pay around 50k for the 3 or so months they work per year.

Definitely kind of hard to compare, and I'm generalizing a bit here cause I don't want to spend too much time googling sources and stuff because a lot of this is word of mouth and inside information. But as someone very very informed about tech (and moderately informed about finance, but don't quote me lol), I can guarantee that the $$$ yield for equivalent effort is almost always higher for tech than medicine, even for Mohs derm because of how hard it is to get in (though after getting in, it's about equivalent or easier than tech).

On a side note, I know a few people that graduated with an MD/PhD in data science/machine learning/other tech fields from Harvard-MIT and Stanford that graduated this year (I was planning on applying with for an MD/PhD in machine learning myself, originally, and connected with these people for that reason), and these guys each made startups that received immediate venture capital funding ranging from 8 to 20 mil. They worked with tech companies throughout their training and made hundreds of thousands off that, and received over half a million dollar offers from health tech companies like Flatiron, Takeda, and Verily. This is a very small sample size, and not the most relevant discussion, but I was so mindblown by it that I wanted to share. I ultimately applied MD only, but this pathway still sticks in my mind. If I get into a top uni (Harvard/Penn/UCLA/UVA... maybe Minnesota?) for both med and CS, I would strongly consider getting at least a Masters in a CS adjacent field, maybe even a PhD. There is a very very strong future for CS in medicine (and that narrative has been the focus of all my interviews haha).

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Another thing to consider is the COL in places where tech and finance employees live. I know most of the big banks have brought employees back to the office. Maybe less so for tech, but Google is requiring workers to come in eventually. Manhattan and Palo Alto/SF housing prices are crazy. Higher than they were pre pandemic in most cases. I doubt many own rather than rent, so cash flows aren’t leading to the accumulation of equity.

 

[allseasons]

Another thing to consider is the COL in places where tech and finance employees live. I know most of the big banks have brought employees back to the office. Maybe less so for tech, but Google is requiring workers to come in eventually. Manhattan and Palo Alto/SF housing prices are crazy. Higher than they were pre pandemic in most cases. I doubt many own rather than rent, so cash flows aren’t leading to the accumulation of equity.

oh yea, that's a major consideration. After all, med is the reverse- you the make most money by practicing in the cheapest places.