is British degree highly recongized than Aussie degree in US?

Discussion in 'General International Discussion' started by vincentyim, Mar 28, 2002.

  1. vincentyim

    vincentyim Junior Member
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    Comparing aussie degree and british degree, which is wider recognized in US residency? They involve with the same degree-MBBS or MBChB, but which teaching quality is better?
     
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  3. leorl

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

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    I would think that would be a little difficult to say. The British have a longer tradition of medical excellence obviously, and they're very classical. For instance, a degree for Cambridge, Oxford, St. Andrews, etc etc etc...all your famous UK schools would certainly sound very impressive. However, the Aussies modeled the British to some degree (well, the country being founded from British descent) and probably a similar standard was established. Now, a lot of their curriculum is PBL (for graduate-entry) anyway, and module based but I don't think their teaching quality would be substandard to the british. As you said, it's the same degree, they're both well respected countries in terms of medical practice/education. I don't think someone in the US would say "oh, he must have received better training b/c he studied in England."
     
  4. robin1

    robin1 Junior Member
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    Isn't this the second time you have tried to compare your British qualifications with that of another country? I think last time you asked the same type of question by trying to compare US and UK medical education. No offense intended, but I'm curious as to what's up with your inferiority complex regarding the education/degree you're going to receive?

    If you want to practice in the US then qualifications from the UK (or Australia) certainly aren't a bad way to go. I don't claim to be an expert in this area, however I have researched into foreign programs since I want to study abroad, and everything I've learned has shown that UK and Aussie grads often escape the stigma associated with IMG's in this country. That definitely doesn't mean things will be as easy or simple for you as compared to a US grad, but perhaps a little better than Carribean or third-world might grads have it. In the end though it's pretty much going to come down to your stats. Do well on the USMLE and you may be at a slight advantage, do poorly and it won't matter where your degree came from. If you really want to come to the US, I'd say stop obsessing over the country of your degree and start thinking about the USMLE.
     
  5. Devdas

    Devdas Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">UK and Aussie grads often escape the stigma associated with IMGs in this country </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">robin..WTF? what stigma are you talking about?
    What communicable diseases IMGs bring to America from their own country?
    :confused:

    I have known IMGs bringing only skills and their medical experiences to the United States to improve the existing greater American Health system.What difference have you noted to discriminate IMGs of other countries from the UK and Aussie grads?

    Then.... Do you consider IMGs from India,Philipines,Pakistan,China,Canada,other European counties are inferior in medical knowledge? Give me a Break! :mad: :mad: :mad:
     
  6. robin1

    robin1 Junior Member
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    Dear Madanraj,

    After reviewing your previous posts to refresh my memory, you'll have to forgive me when I choose not to take your cirticism very seriously.

    As far as my comment regarding IMG stigma, you seem to believe that I am advocating a class-type separation within the ranks of foreign-trained docotors. If you actually read the post you will see that I make no such recommendations or inferences. Note also that nowhere did I claim that the medical knowledge of grads from other countries was inferior. You chose to infer this, so please do not imply that I made such a statement. Personally I could care less where a doctor comes from as long as they're qualified.

    If you honestly beleive that there is no stigma towards IMG's in this country then that's your choice. I have not only learnt otherwise, but also that carribean grads and grads from other countries (including India) often unfairly face a bias when they enter the US system. I did not claim that UK or Autralian grads are guaranteed to escape this stigma, however I do believe that for various reasons they may be more likely to do so. If you believe that UK or Aussie grads will not be treated any differently than a grad from India then again that's up to you. Whether I agree with it or not, my logic tells me otherwise.

    In the end what I believe means absolutely nothing in the vast world of American medicine. So if you don't like or agree with what I say, I honestly don't care. I undertand that other than epressing a mere opinion my posts (or those of anyone else) make no claim to having real value.

    Best of luck to you....and perhaps you should look into relaxation therapy 'cause you really seem to take these boards way too seriously.

    Sincerely,

    Robin
     
  7. BellKicker

    BellKicker Twisted Miler
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    British doctors are just like other doctors..... only they have brown teeth.

    Here's my take on the issue. Robin, I'll try to explain why most IMGs need relaxation therapy. It's really really stressful to know that no matter how well you do, you'll always be running the inside lap on an indoor track (ie. you're gonna lose; a very bad metaphor). And we're talking doctors here; people who are used to winning.

    Foreign doctors go through the same when they come here. That's just how it works.

    People on this board have often stated things like "an IMG will never ever match in Rads", which might be true but sometimes the truth hurts.

    On the other hand: The US is by far the friendliest country I've ever lived in. Being foreign in the US is great. I wouldn't want to be foreign anywhere else.

    Happy Easter

    ps: In an ironic twist, radiology is very low status here so all the IMGs end up in diagnostic radiology. Seriously.
     
  8. robin1

    robin1 Junior Member
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    DaneMD, I think we need to make a distinction here with respect what we are actually discussing regarding IMG's. All IMG's, regardless of where or how good the med school they graduated from, have to jump the same hurdles (USMLE, CSA etc...) to get residency and licenced in the US. No one disputes this.

    But this is not what we were speaking of prior to your post. We were writing in regards to the possible stigma faced by IMG's as they enter to the US health system from very different parts of the world. Clearly their is a difference of opinion here and that's absolutely fine with me. Almost all of my research into foreign programs and their graduates in the US has led me to believe that once the initial hurdles are cleared, there can be subtle, yet noticeable, differences in the way that IMG's are considered (not by the system but rather by colleagues/individuals) in the US. As I said to Madanraj, if you believe that a British (or Australian)-trained physician will have identical experiences to an Indian grad with respect to other peoples perceptions of them, then that's OK with me. However, it seems that for IMG's who are not graduates of these countries, the truth, as you said, may hurt.

    As far as the therapy goes, I can fully appreciate that the process for IMG's to break into the US system is stressful, but these message boards have absolutely nothing to do with this actual process. In fact, if anything they should help to alleviate concern so getting agressive and all worked up over what's written on a student forum seems like a serious waste of energy. Hence the need for relaxation therapy.

    Happy Easter to you as well. :)
     
  9. leorl

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

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    I'm with robin on this one. I've researched extensive as well. Pretty much this is what I was told by my premed advisor. "UK,Canada,Ireland,Australia,Israel you're fine. Anywhere else, you're looking at increased negativity."

    There's a stigma attached to all FMGS, but it seems the ones from the above places encounter less. I don't think robin's initial post deserved quite a childish response. There's really no point in deluding oneself, whether prejudices encountered due to different systems are true or not...that's just how it is. This is the perception that I've also discovered, although all FMGs face some skepticism and are board score dependent.
     
  10. Devdas

    Devdas Senior Member
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    I could have understood if robin had said that IMGs are 'stigmatized'because of the color/third world origin and not because of the medical knowledge.There is no need to beat around the bush!.I do not have any delusion about this truth.I was really hurt when i misunderstood her statement it is due to the quality of medical training they are stigmatized.I feel better know.

    'Indian Doctor' is a brand name in the US like 'Chinese noodles','Italian pasta','Persian carpet','French designer'for its quality <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> I can bet there is no major or minor hospital in the US without an Indian doctor like no street corner in the US exists without a Chinese restaurant.

    I totally agree with DaneMD...there is no country in the world which recognizes the skills of a hard working immigrant and provides a postive environment for their growth like US.That is the reason IMGs work so hard to get the recognition.

    I know what is my power!
    KNOWLEDGE :)

    PS: I usually come to SDN only for relaxation therapy...but,some posters stress me out :p
     
  11. robin1

    robin1 Junior Member
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    Madanraj, I've re-read my original post numerous times now and there is nothing I wrote that even vaguely indicates that I thought the stigma was due to inferior medical knowledge. In fact, I never once even mentioned medical knowledge in my writing as this wasn't an issue in the topic I was responding to. You chose to infer this on your own, then implied that I had made such statements and then when confronted about your incorrect accusation claimed that you 'misunderstood' what was originally written. As I said I've read your other posts and this pattern clearly seems to repeat itself wherever your name appears (for example, demanding the forum moderator's resignation for an absurd reason then retracting it). Perhaps it's time you learned to open your mind and actually listen to what others are trying to say instead of believing that your position is always fundamentally correct and others are innately wrong.

    On another point altogether I have to say that your comparison of Indian doctors to carpets and Chinese food could actually be rather insulting. I was born and raised in the US and have been interested in medicine since before I can remember and at no time have I heard a medical professional (or any other individual for that matter) refer to Indian doctors as a "brand name." As far as I am concerned people such as yourself are in fact part of the reason that Indian doctors may face stigma in the US. Instead of judging them as individuals, you lump all Indian doctors in together and believe that because they are Indian and practicing in the US then they must be superior. The truth is that every 'group' of physicians (US-trained, Indian-trained etc...) has good and bad doctors, but each has the right to be evaluated as individuals rather than having some pre-disposed stereotype imposed upon them. There are alot of high-quality Indian doctors in the US, but they're not just given respect or considered good simply because there happen to be alot of other Indian doctors in the country at the same time. They have earned respect as individuals and deserve to regarded as such rather than having someone like yourself believing you are superior because of what they have accomplished. In my opinion the attitude you consistently present probably does more to hurt future Indian IMG's than help.

    Besides being insulting to the many qualified Indians doctors out there, your analogy of Indian physicians to Chinese food is also quite puzzilng to me. Wherever I've traveled in the US, Chinese food is very often associated with quick, convenient and cheap food. High-quantity may be true, however, high-quality does not readily come to mind. What exactly are they teaching you in India about US popular culture?
     
  12. Stormreaver

    Stormreaver The Blade of Tyshalle
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    Robin is correct: there is a definite trend towards looking at an individual's place of training when considering them for an interview/position. Amongst IMGs, Australian, Israeli, British etc. do have a definite edge-- they tend to get better interviews and in more competitive specialties. Amongst the others, another thing is that some medical colleges/schools are better recognized than others. The savvy PDs will pick and choose from the IMG pools, so even amongst candidates who are otherwise similar from 2 different med schools in Pakistan might be treated differently.

    And Madanraj: you really do need to chill out.
     
  13. Devdas

    Devdas Senior Member
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    Let me wait for more attack from leorl.. :D
     
  14. DrPeace

    DrPeace Member
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    From my experience, less or no stigma if you are from WHITE countries. Perhaps you all should have known this by now.
     
  15. leorl

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

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    LOL madanraj. That is a little ironic, coming from you. We just happen to completely disagree in like...everything.

    Ok, again, I completely agree with robin. I can't really find anywhere in her/his original post that implies an inferior amount of education or knowledge. She/he simply stated that non-UK or Aussie schools (and as correctly pointed out by the above poster, the "white" schools, I didn't want to say it but now someone did) may face more of a stigma and negativity/skepticism, regardless of actual knowledge. She/he then went on to say that board scores are most important regardless of where you go, which is also correct. It completely didn't warrant such a little hissy fit as you displayed, you read way too much into it and I'm thinking deep inside you know what she/he says to be true and you resent it. Who wouldn't? If you want to throw a tantrum, best to go to that thread where that guy pretty much implied that residency directors are racists against the asian man.
     
  16. mrslulu

    mrslulu Junior Member

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    do foreign graduates and local graduates qualify for the same syllabus of examinations? I discover that FGs have to do "CSA", but locals don't. Locals have to take step 1,2,3. But foreigns only do step1. Why it is so complicated?
     
  17. Winged Scapula

    Winged Scapula Cougariffic!
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by mrslulu:
    <strong>do foreign graduates and local graduates qualify for the same syllabus of examinations? I discover that FGs have to do "CSA", but locals don't. Locals have to take step 1,2,3. But foreigns only do step1. Why it is so complicated?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually FMGs have to do ALL 3 USMLE steps PLUS the CSA and the TOEFL (not just Step 1) in order to be licensed in the US. They must do at least Steps 1 and 2, the CSA and TOEFL to get their ECFMG Certificate and enter a US residency. Step 3 can be completed during the first year of residency in some states.

    Hope this helps.
     
  18. leorl

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

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    And guess what, they're doing a trial implementation of the CSA for US grads too. I forget what year will be affected, but sometime really soon. So that makes the only thing FMGs have to take extra being the TOEFL.
     
  19. DrPeace

    DrPeace Member
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    Leorl

    I may be wrong but Western countries tend to be more suspicious of non-white countries in terms of medical schools, research publications, and academic standard in any fields. At the very least, somehow non-white research papers(from China, India, middle east, Asia) receive A LOT more scrutiny and criticisms than white countries( Sweden, Germany, UK, Australia, US, Canada, South Africa). And MANY, MANY of these "white" countries collabrate MUCH, MUCH more often with each other in academic (not epidemological) research than with non-white countries. Am I the only one who notices a pattern here? And such bias resides not only in academia, but the media as well. Have you noticed that every time there's some form of new therapy that is developed from "white" countries, it always become a new hope? But when it's from non-white countries, such new therapy becomes a laughing stock for news entertainment, even when the news therapy is from a scientific origin.

    Leorl: P.S. I think Australia is considered a WHITE country.
     
  20. leorl

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

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    Um, Dr Peace....yeah, I know....

    Oh, I see where you may think I didn't realize it. HEHE. Okay, the other thread I referred to was one where this asian father was dissing the match process by complaining that they didn't accept his American citizen, Asian-American son. His son had done his medical studies in Australia and he was implying that white directors are racist against non-white FMGs who're US citizens. This guy had apparently gone to top 10 schools for undergrad and gotten good stats, so his father took it to mean that through no fault of his son's and through the prejudice and racist nature of match directors, his son was denied a match place for this year.

    But in regards to the medical field, I agree with you and Robin. The "white" countries are "safer" than others.
     
  21. Devdas

    Devdas Senior Member
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    robin1 asked
    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What exactly are they teaching you in India about US popular culture? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thank God! I took my plane to America before Eminem became popular...I would not have come if I had heard his music before taking my plane <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />

    I thought of comparing Indian doctors to Mc'Donald's restaurant for its taste and popularity but,i was afraid that Mc'Donalds would sue me for using it's trademark <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> then Burger King would start using Indian dental doctors for its commercials...why trouble?

    I am so happy that internet is invented and Thank God SDN is not avoiding 'stigmatized'IMGs from 'other'medical schools.Thanks to SDN!

    I wish 'Brain' cells get more POWER than 'Melanin' cells soon in the 21st century!

    leorl,
    You are right!...You read my mind! :)
     
  22. BellKicker

    BellKicker Twisted Miler
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by DrPeace:
    <strong>Leorl

    I may be wrong but Western countries tend to be more suspicious of non-white countries in terms of medical schools, research publications, and academic standard in any fields. At the very least, somehow non-white research papers(from China, India, middle east, Asia) receive A LOT more scrutiny and criticisms than white countries( Sweden, Germany, UK, Australia, US, Canada, South Africa). And MANY, MANY of these "white" countries collabrate MUCH, MUCH more often with each other in academic (not epidemological) research than with non-white countries. Am I the only one who notices a pattern here? And such bias resides not only in academia, but the media as well. Have you noticed that every time there's some form of new therapy that is developed from "white" countries, it always become a new hope? But when it's from non-white countries, such new therapy becomes a laughing stock for news entertainment, even when the news therapy is from a scientific origin.

    Leorl: P.S. I think Australia is considered a WHITE country.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dr Peace,

    I think you're reading too much into this. It's not white countries per se. Think of Japan. Is that a white country? Maybe it would be more correct to say industrialized countrys or even democracies. I could think of many white countries that get very little respect.

    However, I see your point. There is probably a lot of things out there that's either racist or otherwise unfair.
     
  23. Stormreaver

    Stormreaver The Blade of Tyshalle
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    Maybe not "white" countries. Some programs I emailed/contacted wanted "clinical experience in a country where the main medium of communication was English." Doesn't take much imagination to figure that one out.
     

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