I am a nontrad, applied for forensic fellowship this year but didn't end up getting it (was stupid and only applied to one program). I am considering reapplying to the same program and more next year. BUT I have no intention of staying in the state I am currently after I graduate fellowship. The only reason I want to stay where I currently am is due to financial reasons (mortgage is manageable, have care for kids). My question, is it even worth staying an extra year to potentially do the fellowship in 2024 yr or should I move on with my life as an attending? I currently have a job offer in another state at a government facility where the pay is pretty good but cost of living is NOT insignificant.
Is forensics fellowship worth it?
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I’m not sure anyone can give you a surefire answer or guarantee it will be a good bet. I think you have to be ok with that going into it
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Anything unfilled you can scoop up?
That's a really great idea. I have been thinking about that quite a bit recently. I just didn't know of it would be offensive to a program for me to reach out and say "I know I didn't apply to you but...."
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No it won’t be offensive. They would love it if you called and applied.
A psych fellowship director did a talk at my residency program. He said they hadn’t had a fellow in 3 years. Finally someone half applied (full application wasn’t complete). They interviewed and accepted despite an incomplete application.
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are you going to the AAPL meeting this week? historically, applicants who are still looking for a program meet with fellowship directors during the meeting and get themselves into a program. you can use the AAPL directory to identify program with open slots: Fellowship Programs | AAPL - American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law
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I'll add it probably isn't ideal to stick around just for the fellowship if you plan on moving out of state right after anyway. You'd be better off doing the fellowship somewhere you want to stay so you can be familiar with the state laws once done instead of learning one state's laws and having to learn all new laws once you move. Doing it in the state where you'll practice also creates opportunities for connections.
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Doing fellowship upped my game to a degree where I don't think I could've gotten there without it.
There's learning curves you'll still need to experience and fellowship will have you experience several of them much faster in a controlled and supportive environment assuming that the fellowship, should you enter it, is a good one.
There's learning curves you'll still need to experience and fellowship will have you experience several of them much faster in a controlled and supportive environment assuming that the fellowship, should you enter it, is a good one.
Great thanks! I am unfortunately not attending the conference this week
So I decided to attend the conference and do the best I can to get a position. Now that I am here, I realize I have no idea how to do this but am going to try the best I can.
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You can ask to meet with people. You can also attend the ADFPF reception tonight at 6pm where the fellowship directors will be.
Forensic fellowship isn't required to do forensic work, but you may end up doing really bad work or get into bad situations if you don't get the training and have access to mentorship from the fellowship.
From the lawyer side, I don't think any of them care if you've had a forensic fellowship, if they even know what forensic psychiatry is. Lawyers call forensic psychiatrists expert witnesses.
Being a good doctor, good communicator (written and public speaking), composed, etc, are much more important to a lawyer as an expert witness. Having a subspecialty other than forensics may be more likely to get cases. Being an expert in addictions, geropsych, c/l make you more marketable IMO. And if you're not child trained you probably won't be taking on child cases.
Think about it like this. A lawyer has a client with an addiction issue that could be leveraged to benefit their case. Do they want someone board certified in forensic psych or addiction psych? Definitely addiction psych. Assuming the report and testimony capability are comparable. Both would be great but who is taking that much time doing fellowships.
From the lawyer side, I don't think any of them care if you've had a forensic fellowship, if they even know what forensic psychiatry is. Lawyers call forensic psychiatrists expert witnesses.
Being a good doctor, good communicator (written and public speaking), composed, etc, are much more important to a lawyer as an expert witness. Having a subspecialty other than forensics may be more likely to get cases. Being an expert in addictions, geropsych, c/l make you more marketable IMO. And if you're not child trained you probably won't be taking on child cases.
Think about it like this. A lawyer has a client with an addiction issue that could be leveraged to benefit their case. Do they want someone board certified in forensic psych or addiction psych? Definitely addiction psych. Assuming the report and testimony capability are comparable. Both would be great but who is taking that much time doing fellowships.
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I think forensic fellowship is worth it if any of the following apply:
-You want to do a significant amount (let's say >10% of your time) of expert witness work.
-You want a leadership position in corrections
-You want to teach in a forensic psychiatry fellowship
-You have a passion about the interface between psychiatry and the law and do not mind if you take an income hit to do the fellowship
For any of the above, the forensic fellowship is helpful but not essential. If you do want to do a significant amount of expert witness work, the fellowship will definitely help. You will have built-in experience with a range of cases, lots of practice and feedback with report writing and formulating forensic opinions, a network of people who are more likely to refer to you, and board certification. You can build those things without forensic fellowship, but I think it would be an uphill climb so if you actually want to make expert witness work a major part of your career the year is worth it (including financially).
In my experience, outside of expert witness work I think many forensic settings (like corrections or state hospitals) really don't require the fellowship. Even if you wanted to, for instance, work on a prison or state hospital ward treating sex offenders, you can probably find such a job and learn more about that one subspecialty area in a year of attending work than you would in a broader fellowship year. If you don't mind the financial hit, though, I think a forensic skillset can be helpful in a broad range of settings.
-You want to do a significant amount (let's say >10% of your time) of expert witness work.
-You want a leadership position in corrections
-You want to teach in a forensic psychiatry fellowship
-You have a passion about the interface between psychiatry and the law and do not mind if you take an income hit to do the fellowship
For any of the above, the forensic fellowship is helpful but not essential. If you do want to do a significant amount of expert witness work, the fellowship will definitely help. You will have built-in experience with a range of cases, lots of practice and feedback with report writing and formulating forensic opinions, a network of people who are more likely to refer to you, and board certification. You can build those things without forensic fellowship, but I think it would be an uphill climb so if you actually want to make expert witness work a major part of your career the year is worth it (including financially).
In my experience, outside of expert witness work I think many forensic settings (like corrections or state hospitals) really don't require the fellowship. Even if you wanted to, for instance, work on a prison or state hospital ward treating sex offenders, you can probably find such a job and learn more about that one subspecialty area in a year of attending work than you would in a broader fellowship year. If you don't mind the financial hit, though, I think a forensic skillset can be helpful in a broad range of settings.
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What would this look like / what job title would be an example of this?
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For example being chief of a psychiatry department at a prison. It's a pretty niche role and very few forensic (or other) psychiatrists would pursue it, but if correctional leadership is a goal the fellowship is likely worthwhile.
