Is it easier to get into med school if you're not white?

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sotto voce said:
Nobody ever said the number of blacks being accepted is greater than the number of whites. That would be ludicrous. Similarly, nobody ever said the acceptance percentage for blacks is higher than that of their white counterparts.

What has been said is this: Blacks, on the whole, get accepted with lower statistics than whites.
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And you DO understand 🙂 faith in humanity restored
 
SpecterGT260 said:
You don't understand statistics 🙁
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And I don't think you understand how to think outside the box. What does it tell you when an entire racial group scores below another and with URM "advantage" still about 15% less get accepted than whites/asians? It tells me that URM is not an advantage but rather an equalizer for a population, in general, that has to struggle with more BS than another.

Now I expect to have someone reply with the "black billionaire" example of how he/she has it easy.

But seriously, if you're white and want affirmative action, just apply to DO school. In exchange, you become a minority too (sort of).
 
I'm utterly sick of seeing these threads.

Many of the people who post on this forum are completely naive and, from what I can glean, many of you do not know the struggles people of color face. When I was younger my mother always said that black people are like pedigree dogs in that we must be without flaw in order to justify our endeavors. The latter statement is truly a measure of futility because you could be smart or dumb or anywhere upon this spectrum and your still a ****** in the eyes of others.

The last last few years, white people have truly shown their true colors. When white people cannot have things exactly as they see fit, they tend to blame others . In this specific situation, black people are not "stealing" your spots.

"I am a Negro. I make absolutely no apology for being a Negro."
 
Every single week there's a troll thread about race. God damn when will this stop?
 
altamont850 said:
I'm utterly sick of seeing these threads.

Many of the people who post on this forum are completely naive and, from what I can glean, many of you do not know the struggles people of color face. When I was younger my mother always said that black people are like pedigree dogs in that we must be without flaw in order to justify our endeavors. The latter statement is truly a measure of futility because you could be smart or dumb or anywhere upon this spectrum and your still a ****** in the eyes of others.

The last last few years, white people have truly shown their true colors. When white people cannot have things exactly as they see fit, they tend to blame others . In this specific situation, black people are not "stealing" your spots.

"I am a Negro. I make absolutely no apology for being a Negro."
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Hmmm... I don't think anyone is saying that black students need to be flawless. They are simply questioning the fact that skin color is even a factor in deciding what standard prospective medical students must reach. Our society claims to be color-blind... except when it's advantageous to minorities. I don't understand why skin color even plays a factor in admissions. I understand that patients may be comfortable with doctors who come from similar backgrounds, but patients don't choose their doctors based on skin color. There are white people in the ghetto, black people in the ghetto, white people in the rich suburbs, black people in the rich suburbs.

And I can't even comment on your last paragraph. Ever heard of reverse racism? :laugh:👎
 
Yes, as long as you aren't asian.
 
altamont850 said:
I'm utterly sick of seeing these threads.

Many of the people who post on this forum are completely naive and, from what I can glean, many of you do not know the struggles people of color face. When I was younger my mother always said that black people are like pedigree dogs in that we must be without flaw in order to justify our endeavors. The latter statement is truly a measure of futility because you could be smart or dumb or anywhere upon this spectrum and your still a ****** in the eyes of others.

The last last few years, white people have truly shown their true colors. When white people cannot have things exactly as they see fit, they tend to blame others . In this specific situation, black people are not "stealing" your spots.

"I am a Negro. I make absolutely no apology for being a Negro."
Click to expand...

As a URM, I think it's dumb to hold every race at a different standard. All schools should take the best applicants regardless of race. If that means that every single doctor ends up being asian/caucasian, then so be it. Diversity does not improve medicine, intelligence and ingenuity does. However, hypocritical or not, I will gladly take advantage of my URM status to help overcome my abysmal GPA.

Also, it's interesting that you talk about naivety, yet also talk about the "struggles people of color face." Asians are people of color, yet we rarely ever group them with the other people of color.

flodhi1 said:
Every single week there's a troll thread about race. God damn when will this stop?
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When people stop being racist. Affirmative action is racism at its finest!
 
I swear I have to post this in every thread on this subject...
gettheleadout said:
The idea behind URM classification for medical school admissions isn't some form of reparations for past/current discrimination or anything affirmative action-like of that sort, it's merely a means to achieve an equally representative physician population relative to the patient population. It's undeniable that racial bias is inherent in the patient population when they have to decide whether to go see/listen to/trust/follow the directions of a doctor, so a physician population with similar ethnic proportions as the patient population is in the better interest of public health.
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MedPR said:
As a URM, I think it's dumb to hold every race at a different standard. All schools should take the best applicants regardless of race. If that means that every single doctor ends up being asian/caucasian, then so be it. Diversity does not improve medicine, intelligence and ingenuity does. However, hypocritical or not, I will gladly take advantage of my URM status to help overcome my abysmal GPA.

Also, it's interesting that you talk about naivety, yet also talk about the "struggles people of color face." Asians are people of color, yet we rarely ever group them with the other people of color.



When people stop being racist. Affirmative action is racism at its finest!
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At least you're willing to admit you won't improve medicine.
 
YES. Realized this while applying for Ugrad schools.
I think it's ironic that the hierarchy exists for applying to programs and schools yet completely the opposite when applying for actual jobs.
just my 2c 🙂
 
SnowyRox said:
Hmmm... I don't think anyone is saying that black students need to be flawless. They are simply questioning the fact that skin color is even a factor in deciding what standard prospective medical students must reach. Our society claims to be color-blind... except when it's advantageous to minorities. I don't understand why skin color even plays a factor in admissions. I understand that patients may be comfortable with doctors who come from similar backgrounds, but patients don't choose their doctors based on skin color. There are white people in the ghetto, black people in the ghetto, white people in the rich suburbs, black people in the rich suburbs.

And I can't even comment on your last paragraph. Ever heard of reverse racism? :laugh:👎
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Although most people are commenting on affirmative action instead of URM (choosing students that are more representative of the population), I couldn't believe the bolded sentence above. Are you kidding me? Our society is color-blind except when it comes to advantages to minorities? Please tell me where you are from because obviously no racism exists there. I need to find this ideal place. A place where retail workers are color blind and dont follow around minorities around the store. A place where all cops are color blind and don't pull over minorities for being minorities driving a car that has to be stolen because, well, it's too expensive for a minority to own. Wow.
 
MedPR said:
As a URM, I think it's dumb to hold every race at a different standard. All schools should take the best applicants regardless of race. If that means that every single doctor ends up being asian/caucasian, then so be it. Diversity does not improve medicine, intelligence and ingenuity does. However, hypocritical or not, I will gladly take advantage of my URM status to help overcome my abysmal GPA.

Also, it's interesting that you talk about naivety, yet also talk about the "struggles people of color face." Asians are people of color, yet we rarely ever group them with the other people of color.



When people stop being racist. Affirmative action is racism at its finest!
Click to expand...

Not trying to be controversial but if, as a URM, you cannot see the importance of a particular patient population having more physicians of their own race, then you must be out of touch with your URMness.
 
MedPR said:
As a URM, I think it's dumb to hold every race at a different standard. All schools should take the best applicants regardless of race. If that means that every single doctor ends up being asian/caucasian, then so be it. Diversity does not improve medicine, intelligence and ingenuity does. However, hypocritical or not, I will gladly take advantage of my URM status to help overcome my abysmal GPA.

Also, it's interesting that you talk about naivety, yet also talk about the "struggles people of color face." Asians are people of color, yet we rarely ever group them with the other people of color.



When people stop being racist. Affirmative action is racism at its finest!
Click to expand...
This kind of comment perpetuates the stereotype about URMs applicants. By the way, YOU might not improve medicine, but I know there are plenty of motivated people out there that will--speak for yourself. Also, diversity does improve health outcomes... google it, there has been studies on this. As a response to the increase in population's diversity, the majority (if not all) UCs medical school have come out with special programs that ensures there will be culturally competent physicians that will treat this population.
 
Charles Darwin said:
Doesn't your GPA reflect your intelligence/work ethic?
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Is gpa an entirely objective measure or are there instances where faculty members' subjective assessments play into the grading? Do sterotypes and expectations every play into academic assessments of acheivement?
 
MedPR said:
As a URM, I think it's dumb to hold every race at a different standard. All schools should take the best applicants regardless of race. If that means that every single doctor ends up being asian/caucasian, then so be it. Diversity does not improve medicine, intelligence and ingenuity does. However, hypocritical or not, I will gladly take advantage of my URM status to help overcome my abysmal GPA.
Click to expand...

Yeah, tell that to the black patients that I've seen that will say very little to me when I ask them questions but as soon as the physician I'm working with (a black man) comes in, they open right up. I'll admit that this is rare, but even in my very limited experience it's happened. By the way, this isn't just because I'm a medical student: white patients have no problem talking with me.

I think you discount the effect of talking with and being around people that are like yourself.

(sent from my phone - please forgive typos and brevity)
 
LizzyM said:
Is gpa an entirely objective measure or are there instances where faculty members' subjective assessments play into the grading? Do sterotypes and expectations every play into academic assessments of acheivement?
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So if it's so subjective do you guys actually take a look into that? When you see a 3.9 vs a 3.7?
 
Venom5 said:
So if it's so subjective do you guys actually take a look into that? When you see a 3.9 vs a 3.7?
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I don't know if LizzyM will look back at this, but statistically, the difference between a 3.7 and a 4.0 is pretty much the same, so Adcoms don't seem to give a s%*&, which they probably shouldn't given how subjective a GPA can be. 3.7+ GPA shows you're a competent individual in class an put forth and effort to be successful.
Going below that range, though, seems to be a red flag (as reflected in the data/graphs)
 
TriagePreMed said:
And I don't think you understand how to think outside the box. What does it tell you when an entire racial group scores below another and with URM "advantage" still about 15% less get accepted than whites/asians? It tells me that URM is not an advantage but rather an equalizer for a population, in general, that has to struggle with more BS than another.
Click to expand...

Do you think whites/Asians face a lot of obstacles/struggles which prevent them from making college basketball teams or getting into the NBA at the same frequency as blacks?

IMO your logic leads to making conclusions you shouldn't be making. There are some factors which are pretty easy to see put you at a disadvantage (coming from a poor background and going to poor schools) but to claim there is a "URM disadvantage" where if you are black or Mexican it's somehow harder for you than someone with a similar background yet a different skin color is not a fair conclusion.
 
Damn, that Lannister thread got closed 🙁
 
TriagePreMed said:
As a URM myself and a sociology major, I strongly disagree with your assessment. You might not add anything to medicine, but having minority physicians does. I suggest you look at the effect of minority physicians instead of just making stuff up and passing it off as if it were fact.
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I guess I don't see why having a bunch of Asian/White doctors with a handful of all the other races mixed in adds anything to patient care or development of new treatments.

As a patient, I don't care if my doctor is black, white, yellow, purple, or whatever, I just want to know that they are the most qualified person I can see within a reasonable time frame. I know undergrad GPA/MCAT have almost nothing to do with how competent of a physician someone can or will be, but if it's the standard ADCOMs are using, then everyone (all races) should be treated equally.


StBernardsRule said:
Do you think whites/Asians face a lot of obstacles/struggles which prevent them from making college basketball teams or getting into the NBA at the same frequency as blacks?
Click to expand...

Also, though this is an incredibly stupid analogy, it is one I have used and thought about in the past. Say the average NBA guard is 6'2" 220lbs. Anyone who has watched an NBA game knows the vast majority of the players are african american with some caucasians and very few asians. If a 5'8" 150lb asian with more basketball experience, knowledge, and heart were to tryout for an NBA team, he wouldn't even be given a chance because his stats (height/weight) are not good enough.
 
StBernardsRule said:
Do you think whites/Asians face a lot of obstacles/struggles which prevent them from making college basketball teams or getting into the NBA at the same frequency as blacks?

IMO your logic leads to making conclusions you shouldn't be making. There are some factors which are pretty easy to see put you at a disadvantage (coming from a poor background and going to poor schools) but to claim there is a "URM disadvantage" where if you are black or Mexican it's somehow harder for you than someone with a similar background yet a different skin color is not a fair conclusion.
Click to expand...

While I agree with this (I am Asian so I understand the "obstacles" ORM face), that isn't the point of URM and AA.

The point of the URM status is to just get diversity in health care. If this status was an endeavor to compensate the struggles and obstacles URM's face, then it's an incredibly poor standard and should be eliminated right away. They should base applicants on socio-economic status for that.

The point of it is (while I still disagree) is diversity. We still live in a pretty racist society. Diversity in healthcare is still needed for the best healthcare.
 
MedPR said:
I guess I don't see why having a bunch of Asian/White doctors with a handful of all the other races mixed in adds anything to patient care or development of new treatments.

As a patient, I don't care if my doctor is black, white, yellow, purple, or whatever, I just want to know that they are the most qualified person I can see within a reasonable time frame. I know undergrad GPA/MCAT have almost nothing to do with how competent of a physician someone can or will be, but if it's the standard ADCOMs are using, then everyone (all races) should be treated equally.

Also, though this is an incredibly stupid analogy, it is one I have used and thought about in the past. Say the average NBA guard is 6'2" 220lbs. Anyone who has watched an NBA game knows the vast majority of the players are african american with some caucasians and very few asians. If a 5'8" 150lb asian with more basketball experience, knowledge, and heart were to tryout for an NBA team, he wouldn't even be given a chance because his stats (height/weight) are not good enough.
Click to expand...

And just because you don't care (one person) that is "exactly" how the rest of the public thinks, what a bright conclusion pal! 🙄

You are right is pretty stupid, I didn't even read it past the first sentence.
 
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MedPR said:
I guess I don't see why having a bunch of Asian/White doctors with a handful of all the other races mixed in adds anything to patient care or development of new treatments.

As a patient, I don't care if my doctor is black, white, yellow, purple, or whatever, I just want to know that they are the most qualified person I can see within a reasonable time frame. I know undergrad GPA/MCAT have almost nothing to do with how competent of a physician someone can or will be, but if it's the standard ADCOMs are using, then everyone (all races) should be treated equally.
Click to expand...

You're not understanding the fact that patients from different races and with different languages tend to feel more comfortable around their own race. As NickNaylor mentioned there are patients matter of fact A LOT of patients that do care about the skin color. I have seen with my own eyes African American patients refusing to see Caucasian doctors and only wanting to be treated by an AA Physician. You and I cannot change the fact that the element of racism will always exist on this planet. The job of AAMC or ADCOM is not to eliminate racism but to fulfill the need and requirements of the patients in the United States of America. If ADCOM were to use GPA/MCAT equally among all races, I can absolutely guarantee you that there would be no diversity in the medical field, it would most definitely be full of caucasians and asians. Yes you will have eliminated the so called "racism" and "injustice" in the medical admission process even though URM are a very small proportion of the matriculants but what will it acheive for the health care system? nothing. Will it eliminate racism in this country? NO. What can an excellent physician do if the patient refuses to see him because they feel comfortable with their own race? nothing.In the end such a system of patient care would totally fail.
 
Aerus said:
While I agree with this (I am Asian so I understand the "obstacles" ORM face), that isn't the point of URM and AA.

The point of the URM status is to just get diversity in health care. If this status was an endeavor to compensate the struggles and obstacles URM's face, then it's an incredibly poor standard and should be eliminated right away. They should base applicants on socio-economic status for that.

The point of it is (while I still disagree) is diversity. We still live in a pretty racist society. Diversity in healthcare is still needed for the best healthcare.
Click to expand...

So you think adding diversity to healthcare is more important then adding intelligent physicians? Being black doesn't make you suddenly "understand" the shortcomings of being poor (you might come from a rich black family) and being white doesn't suddenly make you non-empathetic to the poor. Adcoms have this stupid notion that adding more URMs is better because patients open up to them more but this is completely false. Socioeconomic factors bring people together more often then race does. Rich people hang with rich people, the poor with the poor. To a rich black man 100 dollars might seem like nothing while to a poor Asian or white it can mean a weeks worth of food. Welcome to America where we attempt to apologize for the sins of our European founders through reverse racism
 
Hemorrage said:
So you think adding diversity to healthcare is more important then adding intelligent physicians? Being black doesn't make you suddenly "understand" the shortcomings of being poor (you might come from a rich black family) and being white doesn't suddenly make you non-empathetic to the poor. Adcoms have this stupid notion that adding more URMs is better because patients open up to them more but this is completely false. Socioeconomic factors bring people together more often then race does. Rich people hang with rich people, the poor with the poor. To a rich black man 100 dollars might seem like nothing while to a poor Asian or white it can mean a weeks worth of food. Welcome to America where we attempt to apologize for the sins of our European founders through reverse racism
Click to expand...

WTF are you talking about!? have you worked in a hospital if so you must be totally out of your mind. You've never seen patients be racist towards physicians of other races and demand to see physicians of their own race? OHKAYY sure, at the hospital/clinics I worked at it happened every single hour let alone day. I don't know what paradise you're living in but good luck with that. How the hell would a patient know the socioeconomic background of their physician? They wouldn't unless it was specifically stated to a patient prior to the care or the Physician stated it himself. What is the doctor supposed to say, "Hi my name is Dr. my parents made < 20k a year when I was 15 now I make 200k a year" the patient would tell him to F off.
 
These again...god dunno how many times this happens. Allow me to break it down..

URM is NOT Affirmative Action.

URM was created due to the assumption that patients will interact better with people of their own culture.

If you want to discuss Affirmative Action, fine.
However, know that it is not the basis for the URM qualification.

-My View Of Affirmative Action-

If data proves that a certain group of people are not able to achieve the same feats as another because a large majority experience some form of economic hardship, then the model should take into consideration economic aspect, not race. The assumption that everyone of a certain race experiences hardship, and that others in another race are given everything is quite frankly in my opinion; completely wrong. The assumption that everyone in a certain economic state will experience difficulties as compared to ones of a higher economic state however, in my opinions hold more ground. Also, if it is also seen that a race on majority is more economically disadvantaged as compared to another, then through an economic model that race and all other races from that category would be included in the view.

Just seems to make more sense to me. 🙂
 
flodhi1 said:
WTF are you talking about!? have you worked in a hospital if so you must be totally out of your mind. You've never seen patients be racist towards physicians of other races and demand to see physicians of their own race? OHKAYY sure, I don't know what paradise you're living in but good luck with that. How the hell would a patient know the socioeconomic background of their physician? They wouldn't unless it was specifically stated to a patient prior to the care or the Physician stated it himself. What is the doctor supposed to say, "Hi my name is Dr. my parents made < 20k a year when I was 15 now I make 200k a year" the patient would tell him to F off.
Click to expand...

I go to school in a very liberal state, and yes i have over 500 hours of volunteering in a hospital setting. This is what i have seen. The pediatrician i shadow often graduated from harvard and hes white, yet i have never seen the patients disrespect him or have any trouble "connecting". The whole argument i made about socioeconomics is about background. Your socioeconomic background builds your emotional background. A poor person who became rich is more likely to be empathetic to the poor rather than a rich person who has always been rich. (does skin color really matter here? no)
 
Hemorrage said:
So you think adding diversity to healthcare is more important then adding intelligent physicians? Being black doesn't make you suddenly "understand" the shortcomings of being poor (you might come from a rich black family) and being white doesn't suddenly make you non-empathetic to the poor. Adcoms have this stupid notion that adding more URMs is better because patients open up to them more but this is completely false. Socioeconomic factors bring people together more often then race does. Rich people hang with rich people, the poor with the poor. To a rich black man 100 dollars might seem like nothing while to a poor Asian or white it can mean a weeks worth of food. Welcome to America where we attempt to apologize for the sins of our European founders through reverse racism
Click to expand...

Intelligent? WTF, you do realize that everyone has to pass the USMLE right? Passing the tests=MD, which proof they are smart enough to be a licensed physician. URMs graduate at the same rate as other students....

I dare you tell tell adcoms they are stupid because they admit URMs with lower numbers...... 😀
 
Hemorrage said:
I go to school in a very liberal state, and yes i have over 500 hours of volunteering in a hospital setting. This is what i have seen. The pediatrician i shadow often graduated from harvard and hes white, yet i have never seen the patients disrespect him or have any trouble "connecting". The whole argument i made about socioeconomics is about background. Your socioeconomic background builds your emotional background. A poor person who became rich is more likely to be empathetic to the poor rather than a rich person who has always been rich. (does skin color really matter here? no)
Click to expand...

wow okay I don't know if you're selectively reading or not. In the united STATES of America your "liberal state" is not the ONLY state. You know for a fact that racism excists in this country. It might not excist in your little perfect pediatrician clinic but it does exist. Come to Harlem, NY. Come to Oakland, CA. Come to Compton, CA with that Harvard pediatrician and tell me if you see racist or not.
Now to your socioeconomic background comment, I totally agree with you but how are we supposed to portray the socioeconomic background of a physician to a patient? we can't unless the patient was explicitly told and some patients would straight up say, "Why the F are you telling me your social economic background I don't care doctor". However will patients judge the skin color of their physicians hell yeah they will man you need to get out of that dream that you're having that patients don't care about the race of their physicians. I have over double the clinical experience you have and damn right I've seen racism first hand every single day during that experience.
 
flodhi1 said:
WTF are you talking about!? have you worked in a hospital if so you must be totally out of your mind. You've never seen patients be racist towards physicians of other races and demand to see physicians of their own race? OHKAYY sure, at the hospital/clinics I worked at it happened every single hour let alone day. I don't know what paradise you're living in but good luck with that. How the hell would a patient know the socioeconomic background of their physician? They wouldn't unless it was specifically stated to a patient prior to the care or the Physician stated it himself. What is the doctor supposed to say, "Hi my name is Dr. my parents made < 20k a year when I was 15 now I make 200k a year" the patient would tell him to F off.
Click to expand...

So what your saying is we should condone racism? It's not the physicians place to teach patients about not being racist or not, but still. Creating a system that condones racism instead of challenging it isn't really what we should be aiming for.
 
I find it interesting that it's common for blacks to refuse to see a white doctor, but that it's uncommon to see a white person refuse to see a black doctor.
 
Temerit said:
I find it interesting that it's common for blacks to refuse to see a white doctor, but that it's uncommon to see a white person refuse to see a black doctor.
Click to expand...

I would like to see some evidence of this, otherwise you are speaking from your own person experience which holds no ground at the national level which is what we are discussing.
 
Coldsoldier said:
So what your saying is we should condone racism? It's not the physicians place to teach patients about not being racist or not, but still. Creating a system that condones racism instead of challenging it isn't really what we should be aiming for.
Click to expand...

It is not the job of the ADCOM, the Physician, AAMC or the hospital itself to tell patients that they MUST see a "highly qualified physician" if the patient demands to see a physician of their own race. I guarantee you that if a hospital tried to "challenge" a patient's request to see a physician of their own race, called the patient racist they would get buried alive in court or at the very least lose millions of $$$$$$$ You guys need to understand we are future physicians, if you want to "challenge" racism in society you're better off becoming an attorney, politicians or civil activist.
 
I was speaking from this thread, although mostly I was just making a pointless statement, would be interesting to look into, though.
 
flodhi1 said:
It is not the job of the ADCOM, the Physician, AAMC or the hospital itself to tell patients that they MUST see a "highly qualified physician" if the patient demands to see a physician of their own race. I guarantee you that if a hospital tried to "challenge" a patient's request to see a physician of their own race, called the patient racist they would get buried alive in court or at the very least lose millions of $$$$$$$ You guys need to understand we are future physicians, if you want to "challenge" racism in society you're better off becoming an attorney, politicians or civil activist.
Click to expand...

Yea, good point. The demand to see someone of the same race however cannot always be met. I wonder if they sue if someone of a different race saves their life. :laugh:

Temerit said:
I was speaking from this thread, although mostly I was just making a pointless statement, would be interesting to look into, though.
Click to expand...

Yea it would, but I have a feeling it would depend more on economic and geographical aspects not so much as race. I mean someone living in the suburbs of Cali wouldn't care as much to see a physician of a different race as compared to someone in Brooklyn or Oakland.
 
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