Is it this hard for everyone?

Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
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doxycycline said:
Hate to break it to you buddy, but it probably is just you and a few select people...even at my MD school I know of a few people that are struggling..but I have found first year very manageable. Its a lot more work than college but nothing out of control...and I think a majority of my classmates feel the same way.. some are just more neurotic about grades than others.

Maybe you need a new study strategy? I don't want to get flamed for saying this but I have a few friends at DO school and they have told me a lot of people either dropped or failed out and I get the feeling that DO schools admit people that may not necessarily be able to cut it and they also are a lot more willing to give people the boot than allopathic schools.
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I have a friend who told me of several people who left at their DO school, but they did so voluntarily. From what that person told me their school did everything they could to help those people out (like MD schools would), but eventually they realized for themselves it wasn't working out.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Nonsense.


2. Your n = 2 'DO friends' example is weak. The attrition rates at DO schools, from what I've seen, are completely on par with those of US MD ( usually less than 5% altogether). I could be wrong, but present data before making these accusations.
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The % of dropouts from American MD programs is 3%, per AAMC data. If you aren't a URM the rate of attrition is closer to 1%.

The % of dropouts from American DO programs is 4.9%, per published data from AACOM (you have to do the math since AACOM doesn't clearly state the overall attrition %). AACOM doesn't appear to make the data on URMs public, though it is probably safe to assume that they trend the same way as the MD programs. I am a little skeptical of the AACOM data since it is questionnaire-based, as opposed to the AAMC data which is obtained directly from the school registrars. But, I will take it at face value here.

So, the percentage of attrition is 50% higher in DO programs compared to MD programs, with hard data.

AACOM data:
http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/2006statrpt/Documents/ASROME2006.pdf

AAMC data:
https://www.aamc.org/download/165418/data/aibvol9_no11.pdf.pdf
https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/aibvol7no2.pdf
 
silas2642 said:
Med school does get harder with each year (the exception is 4th year), but fortunately you get better at being a med student. You learn how to study more efficiently, you figure out what is and isn't important, you learn to prioritize. Hang in there, you'll do fine.
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/\ This. I knew I was out of whack first year when I remember thinking that life was better in Afghanistan. Then I'd remember when I was in Afghanistan and made a promise to myself that I'd never say something so stupid. Stress is a relative thing, though. We tend to forget the hard stuff and remember the easy stuff. In that light, I clicked on this thread thinking "I didn't think first year was so bad" and then stumbled upon my old mental note: "First year sucked. Never tell yourself otherwise".

I am kind a fan of the "The race is not always to the swift, but to those who keep on running" mentality, but I realize that is easier said than done. I don't think anyone can fairly give you advice on such a big decision as taking an LOA. However, I think it is sound to consider talking to a professional. It sounds like you are dealing with more than just grades.

Good luck.
 
Gabby said:
Of course you can when they have their policies written out in black and white. At the more shady schools, I agree, you can't tell why. But most schools have a remediation/dismissal policy in their student handbook and some of do dismiss students after failing two classes.
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I am not a lawyer, but I think every student has a reasonable expectation for due process when it comes to their academic standing. You have paid a significant amount of money to your institution and have a right to be treated fairly.

If I were given the "quick boot" tomorrow, I would be in a lawyer's office within the hour.
 
JaggerPlate said:
This is kind of like when someone tells a super racist joke and then throws in at the end "BUT I'm not racist."

Somehow, most people assume it's their true feelings, but they throw a disclaimer in to conform to social norms and avoid conflict.
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Like in the South?

You can say the nastiest thing imaginable about a person and you are good as long as you preface it with a "Bless their heart but............."

"Bless their heart, but they are dumber than a bag of hammers."
 
wanna_be_do said:
The % of dropouts from American MD programs is 3%, per AAMC data. If you aren't a URM the rate of attrition is closer to 1%.

The % of dropouts from American DO programs is 4.9%, per published data from AACOM (you have to do the math since AACOM doesn't clearly state the overall attrition %). AACOM doesn't appear to make the data on URMs public, though it is probably safe to assume that they trend the same way as the MD programs. I am a little skeptical of the AACOM data since it is questionnaire-based, as opposed to the AAMC data which is obtained directly from the school registrars. But, I will take it at face value here.

So, the percentage of attrition is 50% higher in DO programs compared to MD programs, with hard data.

AACOM data:
http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/2006statrpt/Documents/ASROME2006.pdf

AAMC data:
https://www.aamc.org/download/165418/data/aibvol9_no11.pdf.pdf
https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/aibvol7no2.pdf
Click to expand...

Let me see if I'm reading you here correctly (didn't go to the links):

-US MD dropout/kickout = 3%

-DO dropout/kicout = 4.9%

-3% doubled is 4.9% (I'm guessing you drew this conclusion from somewhere in those links, not from the 3/4.9 numbers)???

-Let's say the average class size (for US MD and DO ) is 170 (which I feel is conservative):

170 * .03 = 5.1 people

170 * .049 = 8.3 people

So out of a class of 170 people, 3 more, on average, which to my understanding you have calculated from surveys, leave from DO classes???

Frankly, this seems very comparable to me.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Let me see if I'm reading you here correctly (didn't go to the links):

-US MD dropout/kickout = 3%

-DO dropout/kicout = 4.9%

-3% doubled is 4.9% (I'm guessing you drew this conclusion from somewhere in those links, not from the 3/4.9 numbers)???

-Let's say the average class size (for US MD and DO ) is 170 (which I feel is conservative):

170 * .03 = 5.1 people

170 * .049 = 8.3 people

So out of a class of 170 people, 3 more, on average, which to my understanding you have calculated from surveys, leave from DO classes???

Frankly, this seems very comparable to me.
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He did say 50% more, which isn't doubled. 50% more on 3% is 4.5%.

A very rough estimate of the total medical school graduates (MD/DO) in the US is 22,665. There are 161 medical schools that graduated students this year in the US. So 140 nearly on the dot is the average class size. In a way that helps your final point. Just trying to keep the math accurate to the national statistics.
 
danimjo said:
I find myself wondering, is it this hard for anyone else? Or is it really just me?
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It's not just you. It's you and maybe 4 or 5 other people.

danimjo said:
And if it's so hard for me, and if its relatively easier for everyone else, maybe that's a big sign that I should bail out now?
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Maybe. Med school is not for everybody.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Let me see if I'm reading you here correctly (didn't go to the links):

-US MD dropout/kickout = 3%

-DO dropout/kicout = 4.9%

-3% doubled is 4.9% (I'm guessing you drew this conclusion from somewhere in those links, not from the 3/4.9 numbers)???

-Let's say the average class size (for US MD and DO ) is 170 (which I feel is conservative):

170 * .03 = 5.1 people

170 * .049 = 8.3 people

So out of a class of 170 people, 3 more, on average, which to my understanding you have calculated from surveys, leave from DO classes???

Frankly, this seems very comparable to me.
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I mentioned 50% more. Double would be 100% more.

The numbers are there - the DO school attrition rate is, per the data, ~ 50% higher than the MD rate. That is per the official data. As I alluded to earlier, I believe the numbers from AACOM are not entirely accurate. Using a questionnaire (in lieu of directly obtaining information as the AAMC does) is a very sloppy way of obtaining data for reports such as this. I believe that AACOM underestimates the attrition rate for this reason.

You are correct in that the absolute numbers are still low, but that doesn't mean they are equal.
 
wanna_be_do said:
I mentioned 50% more. Double would be 100% more.

The numbers are there - the DO school attrition rate is, per the data, ~ 50% higher than the MD rate. That is per the official data. As I alluded to earlier, I believe the numbers from AACOM are not entirely accurate. Using a questionnaire (in lieu of directly obtaining information as the AAMC does) is a very sloppy way of obtaining data for reports such as this. I believe that AACOM underestimates the attrition rate for this reason.

You are correct in that the absolute numbers are still low, but that doesn't mean they are equal.
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Ah, you were saying 50% more ... sorry, I don't know how I read that wrong (my bad).

Again though, I suppose if you extrapolated this out on some large scale it would make a difference, but when you compare two schools and one has 5 kids leave, the other has 8, I don't think many people would launch into a firestorm and start immediately questioning the validity of the other school.

I'm not sure if you're implying that DO attrition rates are an issue, but to me (and maybe I'm being unscientific here), it seems like both US MD and DO have low attrition rates. 'Low, but not equal' is a pretty common and pretty acceptable factor in life.

Additionally, I think it's a stretch to assume that the AACOM data was collected in a certain way to blur facts or hide something.
 
People in medical school who do poorly seem to focus too much on the details and they don't have the time to review everything. You are better off just reviewing everything 3 or 4 times even if you don't really understand everything completely.

Anyway, the OP seems depressed about her/his personal life. That is probably the issue here.
 
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It sounds like you're studying harder, not smarter. Does your school have a learning analysis office (or any office that will help you find your particular learning style)? If not, it might be worth paying someone to help you figure this out.

Med school is hard until you figure out how to actually process this much information and balance your life. When I was an MS2, I thought about how nice and easy MS1 was by comparison. In MS3, I thought fondly of the easy times of MS2 and MS1. MS4 year was pretty awesome after the initial flurry of away rotations. Intern year has been yet another set of challenges, and med school years look easy by comparison. The nice part is the steps before prepare you for what comes next.

The earlier you figure out how to actually learn the material and still balance your life somewhat, the easier the road is. Unfortunately, some folks never learn and some just don't want to learn and drop out. It is your choice which road you take here - do you continue to try or cut your losses? I would start with a learning style test and talking to your mentor at school.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Ah, you were saying 50% more ... sorry, I don't know how I read that wrong (my bad).

Again though, I suppose if you extrapolated this out on some large scale it would make a difference, but when you compare two schools and one has 5 kids leave, the other has 8, I don't think many people would launch into a firestorm and start immediately questioning the validity of the other school.

I'm not sure if you're implying that DO attrition rates are an issue, but to me (and maybe I'm being unscientific here), it seems like both US MD and DO have low attrition rates. 'Low, but not equal' is a pretty common and pretty acceptable factor in life.

Additionally, I think it's a stretch to assume that the AACOM data was collected in a certain way to blur facts or hide something.
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I know you don't care about anecdotal evidence, but I'm a second year and we've lost 10% of the class.
 
EmersonAnne said:
I know you don't care about anecdotal evidence, but I'm a second year and we've lost 10% of the class.
Click to expand...

Seems high. Do you think it has anything to do with the admin changes (you're at KCUMB right)???
 
It doesn't seem all that uncommon for a class to lose 20% of it's original members, but gain others from previous classes, transfers, etc. so that the ultimate number is only 5-10% less than the number that started.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Additionally, I think it's a stretch to assume that the AACOM data was collected in a certain way to blur facts or hide something.
Click to expand...

Why would you think that?

Medical schools (MD and DO) fudge statistics all the time to make their schools look better. The average MCAT scores and GPAs are often calculated in a way to make their numbers look more impressive than they are (most often, the GPAs and MCAT scores of URM students, which are typically lower, are suppressed or "adjusted" using dubious rationales).

Do I think that AACOM intentionally aims to deceive? No. But as I mentioned, it is very sloppy data collecting practice to ask someone with a vested interest (in this case, a representative of a medical school) to self-report attrition data. I wouldn't put it past some schools to deliberately understate the number of students who drop out or fail out. This obvious conflict of interest is presumably why the AAMC specifically gets the data from the registrars themselves.
 
wanna_be_do said:
Why would you think that?

Medical schools (MD and DO) fudge statistics all the time to make their schools look better. The average MCAT scores and GPAs are often calculated in a way to make their numbers look more impressive than they are (most often, the GPAs and MCAT scores of URM students, which are typically lower, are suppressed or "adjusted" using dubious rationales).

Do I think that AACOM intentionally aims to deceive? No. But as I mentioned, it is very sloppy data collecting practice to ask someone with a vested interest (in this case, a representative of a medical school) to self-report attrition data. I wouldn't put it past some schools to deliberately understate the number of students who drop out or fail out. This obvious conflict of interest is presumably why the AAMC specifically gets the data from the registrars themselves.
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Shrug? Felt like a bit of a 'conspiracy theory' to me.

Don't get me wrong, I know the AOA, COCA, AACOM are far, FAR from perfect organizations, and I'm not above believing that these groups would utilize statistics in their favor, but just from my own experiences in medical school (which, thus far, are obviously limited), talking with 3/4th year friends, knowing people at other schools, etc, it just didn't seem like drop out/dismissal is that big of an issue, so I didn't think it was a number/stat that needed to be bent.
 
In Scrubs when Dr. Kelso was talking to the lady about to go in for gastric bypass, he said, "Nothing in this world that's worth having comes easy."

I felt the same way you did at the beginning of the year. I thought for sure I would fail out or leave. I squeaked by the first two trimesters and my outlook is completely different now. I do not care about the numbers at all, as long as I pass. I have been able to maintain a moderate level of sanity for quite a while now. For example, I have an exam tomorrow (today) and I have been studying leisurely all day knowing that there is no way I will cover all the material. But it doesn't phase me, I won't let it.
I am really just procrastinating right now.
Crap, I'm not going to sleep tonight. Sunrises are so pleasant.
 
Gabby said:
You're an ass.
Click to expand...

I assume she made this thread looking for honest opinions, not pats on the back. Probably a dozen people in her class are going to drop out. If she is having a nervous breakdown and getting Fs for her first semester classes, there's a fair chance she is going to be in that group. Most people don't have that much trouble. If the class average is 85 and there's a fairly normal distribution, then no, everyone is not failing like she is. I'm a realist. Some people just don't have what it takes for medical school.
 
wanna_be_do said:
Why would you think that?

Medical schools (MD and DO) fudge statistics all the time to make their schools look better. The average MCAT scores and GPAs are often calculated in a way to make their numbers look more impressive than they are (most often, the GPAs and MCAT scores of URM students, which are typically lower, are suppressed or "adjusted" using dubious rationales).

Do I think that AACOM intentionally aims to deceive? No. But as I mentioned, it is very sloppy data collecting practice to ask someone with a vested interest (in this case, a representative of a medical school) to self-report attrition data. I wouldn't put it past some schools to deliberately understate the number of students who drop out or fail out. This obvious conflict of interest is presumably why the AAMC specifically gets the data from the registrars themselves.
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How do US MD schools "suppress" URM data? You can easily view the MCAT and GPA for each sex and race. So I don't know what you are talking about.
 
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My two cents: Maybe your relationship falling apart is making you depressed, which in turn is making you dwell on it, which in turn is causing you to lose focus on school. The only way to fix this, is to come to terms with the fact that you won't have a lot of time to see your sig other, or just end it out right. you got into medical school, which means you were aware of the sacrafices required to endure it. Don't give up, this would be your biggest regret EVER in life, far more than losing a girl/boyfriend (divorce rates are almost to 50%). There are many fish in the sea. I would never risk it. Control the things you can, and learn to cope with things you cannot, or else you may never reach the light at the end of the tunnel.
Good luck to you.
 
danimjo said:
Hi, I am just finishing my first year of medical school. failing a few classes, and losing the most substantial relationship of my life. Goodbye 5 year relationship with the person I thought I would marry. I am stressed out and crying constantly. I feel like a failure in my personal life, and in my professional life. And although I love learning the stuff we're learning in school, I feel totally overwhelmed, by being asked to absorb massive amounts of information and then being tested on minutiae. I am considering taking a leave of absence, but I"m afraid that because this is so hard, once I leave I won't come back....And on top of that our professors keep saying it gets harder and harder all the time, you get into your intern year and think surely being a resident is easier, and it's not, you get into residency and think surely being an attending is easier and it's not, you get into being an attending and think surely practice is easier and its not....

And I find myself wondering, is it this hard for anyone else? Or is it really just me? And if it's so hard for me, and if its relatively easier for everyone else, maybe that's a big sign that I should bail out now?
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I deeply sympathize with losing the love of your life and med school sucking, see my post history. I was lucky that my trouble began in my last year though. PM me if you want to talk
 
jmanpatsfan said:
In Scrubs when Dr. Kelso was talking to the lady about to go in for gastric bypass, he said, "Nothing in this world that's worth having comes easy."

I felt the same way you did at the beginning of the year. I thought for sure I would fail out or leave. I squeaked by the first two trimesters and my outlook is completely different now. I do not care about the numbers at all, as long as I pass. I have been able to maintain a moderate level of sanity for quite a while now. For example, I have an exam tomorrow (today) and I have been studying leisurely all day knowing that there is no way I will cover all the material. But it doesn't phase me, I won't let it.
I am really just procrastinating right now.
Crap, I'm not going to sleep tonight. Sunrises are so pleasant.
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Case Files Psych is worth reading for the chapter on "Neurosis" alone. Actually, I don't know how helpful the book was for the rotation, but if you see the book laying around, read the neurosis section.

It should be entitled: "Medical Student Syndrome". I am convinced the authors put it in there just to comfort medical students.
 
We started first year with ~198 students in Class of 2013. We are now down around 170.

A few left school voluntarily and a bunch have been bumped back to repeat first year, or will be bumped back to 2014 to repeat second year.

To the OP,
First year is a bitch. It sucks, but it's doable. Unfortunately, I have found second year to be worse than first year was. Again, it's doable. You just have to decide you're going to finish and stick to it. If you go down, go down swinging.
 
tehdude said:
Nah, I'm doing just fine. But thanks for your concern. 😎
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Not in the sensitivity department, that's for sure. You missed the memo that isn't not all about grades.
 
DocArmy said:
We started first year with ~198 students in Class of 2013. We are now down around 170
Click to expand...

I think this is more the norm. It's unfortunate that many don't know that. I think it's because so many statistics state (inaccurately) that 98-95% of the class graduates that everyone assumes they're the only ones who've left or been asked to leave. People also assume that number means they graduated with the class they began with.
 
Gabby said:
Not in the sensitivity department, that's for sure. You missed the memo that isn't not all about grades.
Click to expand...

I'd much rather have a smart doctor than a sensitive one.
 
DocArmy said:
We started first year with ~198 students in Class of 2013. We are now down around 170.

A few left school voluntarily and a bunch have been bumped back to repeat first year, or will be bumped back to 2014 to repeat second year.

To the OP,
First year is a bitch. It sucks, but it's doable. Unfortunately, I have found second year to be worse than first year was. Again, it's doable. You just have to decide you're going to finish and stick to it. If you go down, go down swinging.
Click to expand...
This is a post I would've liked to see as an incoming 1st year. Unfortunately, I bought into the "if you get in, you're in until you graduate" rhetoric that was around SDN at the time. Turns out I had to study like mad to stay afloat that 1st year. Different strokes.
 
tehdude said:
I assume she made this thread looking for honest opinions, not pats on the back. Probably a dozen people in her class are going to drop out. If she is having a nervous breakdown and getting Fs for her first semester classes, there's a fair chance she is going to be in that group. Most people don't have that much trouble. If the class average is 85 and there's a fairly normal distribution, then no, everyone is not failing like she is. I'm a realist. Some people just don't have what it takes for medical school.
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It's first semester of med school. Tons of people struggle. Maybe if she was operating at %100 and had to repeat a year despite her best effort and then continued failing, but a little too soon with the "you don't have what it takes" speech.
 
First off, I havent started med yet and I start in August. However OP, if you were able to get into med to begin with, I believe you have what it takes. Im sure its hard as hell, im expecting my social life to suck and im expecting to be stressed. But Im going into knowing (or at least thinking I know) what it will be like.

You worked so hard to get to this point, dont give up! There is great advice on here ( some haters too, but **** em). You should talk to your classmates and study with them 🙂
 
tehdude said:
I'd much rather have a smart doctor than a sensitive one.
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Even if you had the IQ of a genius, I wouldn't come see you. An important part of patient care is sensitivity and there are plenty of doctors who have both the smarts and the sensitivity. I wouldn't spend my money on a vain, arrogant doctor with an over-inflated ego that led him to medicine.
 
ugh, let's cut it out with the "you'll be a bad doctor" bullcrap, please. you're just as obnoxious as someone who's being blunt/"mean" to the OP.
 
christina30 said:
ugh, let's cut it out with the "you'll be a bad doctor" bullcrap, please. you're just as obnoxious as someone who's being blunt/"mean" to the OP.
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Direct your comment to tehdude.
 
thepoopologist said:
It's first semester of med school. Tons of people struggle. Maybe if she was operating at %100 and had to repeat a year despite her best effort and then continued failing, but a little too soon with the "you don't have what it takes" speech.
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The "you don't have what it takes" speech from someone that hasn't graduated from Medical School = Irony.
 
drctother said:
First off, I havent started med yet and I start in August. However OP, if you were able to get into med to begin with, I believe you have what it takes. Im sure its hard as hell, im expecting my social life to suck and im expecting to be stressed. But Im going into knowing (or at least thinking I know) what it will be like.

You worked so hard to get to this point, dont give up! There is great advice on here ( some haters too, but **** em). You should talk to your classmates and study with them 🙂
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Did you ever play High School Football? Med School is like that. When you are in it, all you can focus on is how much "two a days" in the August heat suck and the other crappy aspects. Ten years later, all you can remember are the games, the parties, and the good stuff.

The human mind has an amazing capacity to forget "the suck".

Don't lose perspective your first year. Just keep working and fighting and it will be a memory eventually.

As has been said, to a degree it's a game and part of being successful (or surviving) is learning how to simply play the game.

Good luck!
 
Haha....I'm from Detroit! But it's true, it does smell.
 
DarkHorizon said:
I think Gabby is referring to CCOM and AZCOM, both will dismiss you if you failed any two classes over 2 years. I think it's a very harsh policy, IMO.
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Not sure about CCOM but AZCOM's policy definitely isn't this. During pre-clinical you have to have three failures in one academic year or four cumulative for both years in order to be dismissed. They also give summer-remediation opportunities and an "extended study program" where you repeat the year.
 
tehdude said:
I don't have to go to Detroit to know that it smells.
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Hey! It only smells on Wednesday afternoons, thank you very much!

😛
 
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