Is it time to stock-up on assault rifles?

[coprolalia]

---

Members don't see this ad.

You are never going to convince me of that he isn't culpable.

Culpable? Of what? Culpable is a legal term. Be careful...

He did abuse his power and trampled on the Constitution in the process.

Again, you are implying that he did this alone. I believe it is you who is denying reality.

-copro

 

[proman]

Large portions of the Patriot Act violate the 4th, 5th, 6th, and possibly the 8th Amendment.

-copro

Still too vague. What can I no longer do or expect now, that I could in 2000? Be specific.

 

[aphistis]

Culpable? Of what? Culpable is a legal term. Be careful...

The existence of a specific legal denotation doesn't strip a word of its common language definitions. I agree with the line of thought you're pursuing here, copro, but these split-hair semantic quibbles come at the expense of your broader argument.

 

[coprolalia]

Still too vague. What can I no longer do or expect now, that I could in 2000? Be specific.

Well, let's examine specifically how it violates the Constitution...

Amendment 4:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The USA PATRIOT Act allows the federal government, without your permission, to listen to your phone calls, intercept your emails, scan even such ridiculous things such as what books you checked out at the library (etc). without probable cause. They do this as a "fishing expedition" in order to ascertain what you're up to.

Amendment 5:

No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

They can seize your assets without due process of law and hold you, not even to answer, but for the assertion that you were up to no good, again, without due process of law for an indeterminate time.

Amendment 6:

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

Now, one can argue since you've been denied Fifth Amendment rights, amendment six doesn't really apply... but it should. The fact is, the government can detain you without telling you why, under the USA PATRIOT Act.

Amendment 8:

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Well, there is really no bail, is there? And, one may argue that a "punishment" only comes after a conviction. So, this one may be a little shaky. But, with what happened at Abu Ghraib and is still occurring, on some level, at Guantanimo, it's hard to say that it isn't "punishment" that's being meted out, and certainly we've all witnessed it being "cruel and unusual" through the media.

So, you ask what you can't do, right? Here's a scenario for you...

Say your roomate gets pissed off at you because you finished off the Cheerios and didn't buy a new box, despite the fact that you've done this repeatedly in the past. He finally snaps. He secretly plots his revenge, in a somewhat what-he-intends-to-be joking manner.

You just happen to be one of those people who stays logged into your computer, and the ISP is in your name. He, being the clever **** that he is, starts to go onto Middle Eastern websites over the course of several weeks. Heck, he even sends a few emails to some "friends" he's made through the chat rooms on your account. (I dunno, maybe you use Verizon or Comcast and when you pull up Windows Outlook Express it automatically logs you in). To be really funny, he uses words like "Al Quaida" and "bomb" and "will make them pay" in some of those emails. Oh, and just suppose you happen to live in Detroit and your name is Arabic.

Sooner or later, you finally get a knock at your door. It's the men in black suits who come in and confiscate everything in your apartment. They take your computer, which has all the evidence of the sites you've visited and the emails you've sent. Your roomate gets a good laugh as they haul you away, much to your protestation that you didn't do anything and don't know what they're talking about (sure, like they haven't heard that before).

Next thing you know, you're in jail, you don't know what you're charged with (if anything) and they don't have to talk to you. You say, "I want to speak to a lawyer" (a sure sign to them that you're innocent, don't you agree?) and they tell you, "No. Sorry Charlie."

Now, this is an extreme scenario, but under the USA PATRIOT Act, it's possible that this could happen. Certainly, in Guantanimo right now there are detainees who have done absolutely nothing wrong. When you're a visitor in a foreign country, whether invited or not, the same laws are supposed to apply as do ones for the citizens (which is why I suggest you leave your porn and whiskey at home if you ever visit Saudi Arabia... or don't spit on the sidewalk in Singapore).

It's a bad law. It has the potential for abuse. You can freely discuss whatever you want, but you better be careful about using certain words or certain terminology on your cellphone or when you send an email to a friend.

So, it's less about what you can no longer do (hey, I'm all for doing whatever the hell it is you want to do provided you don't hurt anyone else in the process and are willing to pay for it yourself, if costs are involved), and more about what the government can do to you.

It's a bad law.

-copro

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Well, let's examine specifically how it violates the Constitution...

Amendment 4:



The USA PATRIOT Act allows the federal government, without your permission, to listen to your phone calls, intercept your emails, scan even such ridiculous things such as what books you checked out at the library (etc). without probable cause. They do this as a "fishing expedition" in order to ascertain what you're up to.

Amendment 5:



They can seize your assets without due process of law and hold you, not even to answer, but for the assertion that you were up to no good, again, without due process of law for an indeterminate time.

Amendment 6:



Now, one can argue since you've been denied Fifth Amendment rights, amendment six doesn't really apply... but it should. The fact is, the government can detain you without telling you why, under the USA PATRIOT Act.

Amendment 8:



Well, there is really no bail, is there? And, one may argue that a "punishment" only comes after a conviction. So, this one may be a little shaky. But, with what happened at Abu Ghraib and is still occurring, on some level, at Guantanimo, it's hard to say that it isn't "punishment" that's being meted out, and certainly we've all witnessed it being "cruel and unusual" through the media.

So, you ask what you can't do, right? Here's a scenario for you...

Say your roomate gets pissed off at you because you finished off the Cheerios and didn't buy a new box, despite the fact that you've done this repeatedly in the past. He finally snaps. He secretly plots his revenge, in a somewhat what-he-intends-to-be joking manner.

You just happen to be one of those people who stays logged into your computer, and the ISP is in your name. He, being the clever **** that he is, starts to go onto Middle Eastern websites over the course of several weeks. Heck, he even sends a few emails to some "friends" he's made through the chat rooms on your account. (I dunno, maybe you use Verizon or Comcast and when you pull up Windows Outlook Express it automatically logs you in). To be really funny, he uses words like "Al Quaida" and "bomb" and "will make them pay" in some of those emails. Oh, and just suppose you happen to live in Detroit and your name is Arabic.

Sooner or later, you finally get a knock at your door. It's the men in black suits who come in and confiscate everything in your apartment. They take your computer, which has all the evidence of the sites you've visited and the emails you've sent. Your roomate gets a good laugh as they haul you away, much to your protestation that you didn't do anything and don't know what they're talking about (sure, like they haven't heard that before).

Next thing you know, you're in jail, you don't know what you're charged with (if anything) and they don't have to talk to you. You say, "I want to speak to a lawyer" (a sure sign to them that you're innocent, don't you agree?) and they tell you, "No. Sorry Charlie."

Now, this is an extreme scenario, but under the USA PATRIOT Act, it's possible that this could happen. Certainly, in Guantanimo right now there are detainees who have done absolutely nothing wrong. When you're a visitor in a foreign country, whether invited or not, the same laws are supposed to apply as do ones for the citizens (which is why I suggest you leave your porn and whiskey at home if you ever visit Saudi Arabia... or don't spit on the sidewalk in Singapore).

It's a bad law. It has the potential for abuse. You can freely discuss whatever you want, but you better be careful about using certain words or certain terminology on your cellphone or when you send an email to a friend.

So, it's less about what you can no longer do (hey, I'm all for doing whatever the hell it is you want to do provided you don't hurt anyone else in the process and are willing to pay for it yourself, if costs are involved), and more about what the government can do to you.

It's a bad law.

-copro

I wholeheartedly agree w/all of that😱!

 

[Arch Guillotti]

I am saying the conversation that was at hand before you stepped in has nothing to do with the administration. You are just trying to steer it there.

Friend, the conversation at hand dealt with the OP's statement:

"Now that President-elect Obama is set to take the White House by storm and change all of our lives for the better, should we pick up a few extra AK47's, SKS's, and AR-15's before the near certain assault weapons bans go into effect?"

I believe that each presidential administration has a profound role in the judiciary and how laws are created and interpreted that deal with our fundamental rights.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Yeah, you're gonna have to justify that one. I agree with you, though, in this: if you can't substantiate a statement, you shouldn't join the conversation. Because, that's all this is at this point: a conversation. Everyone is being civil and making their points. If you, OTOH, want to start an argument, go right ahead.

-copro

I am not sure I am aware of the distinction between an argument and a discussion around here sometimes😎

 

[Arch Guillotti]

But, who passed the Patriot Act? Not, who supported it. (I'll give you a head start... it got 98 "Yea" votes in the Senate... full bipartisan support...)
-copro

yes that is a shame. The political reality is that any politician that votes against something titled the "Patriot Act" may find there nay vote used against them in the future.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Have at it, Arch. You tipped your hand. We know what you were thinking. Now we want you to justify your statments. In fact, justify them with any "rights" you feel have been trampled upon.

I think you've quaffed the KoolAid so deeply that you don't even question your own rhetoric anymore...

-copro

The Patriot Act has already been duly covered.

Guantanamo is an embarassment. Imprisoning individuals for their entire natural lives on the basis of what they might have done, or might yet do, is diametrically opposed to the principles on which this country was founded.

The Bush administration’s assertion of executive power to set aside habeas corpus protection for both citizens and noncitizens declared by the executive branch to be “enemy combatants".

Dick Cheney's claim that the Office of Vice President is independent of both the executive branch and Congress and is accountable to neither.

Bush's claim that as Commander-in-Chief he can bypass not only the Fourth Amendment but the central due process guarantee of the Fifth Amendment as well.

The list goes on and on.................

 

[usnavdoc]

Friend, the conversation at hand dealt with the OP's statement:

"Now that President-elect Obama is set to take the White House by storm and change all of our lives for the better, should we pick up a few extra AK47's, SKS's, and AR-15's before the near certain assault weapons bans go into effect?"

I believe that each presidential administration has a profound role in the judiciary and how laws are created and interpreted that deal with our fundamental rights.

The part of the conversation you jumped in on was a hijacked part of the thread and had little to do with the original OP's question. I had commented on Planks arrogance when you stepped in. That was what we were talking about.

 

[usnavdoc]

Guantanamo is an embarassment. Imprisoning individuals for their entire natural lives on the basis of what they might have done, or might yet do, is diametrically opposed to the principles on which this country was founded.

.................

Are you serious! These are individuals who were caught planning and participating in the acts of war and terrorism against our nation, its forces, and innocent civilians abroad. What would you suggest we do with them? Getmo is no different from any other prisoner of war camp from any other past war. Having these people out of circulation is a benefit to the worlds society. I think people like you should have go experience some self sacrifice and see what is actually happening in the world.

 

[Planktonmd]

Are you serious! These are individuals who were caught planning and participating in the acts of war and terrorism against our nation, its forces, and innocent civilians abroad. What would you suggest we do with them? Getmo is no different from any other prisoner of war camp from any other past war. Having these people out of circulation is a benefit to the worlds society. I think people like you should have go experience some self sacrifice and see what is actually happening in the world.

Who decides that someone fits your description of "an individual planning and participating in acts of war or terrorism"??

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Are you serious! These are individuals who were caught planning and participating in the acts of war and terrorism against our nation, its forces, and innocent civilians abroad. What would you suggest we do with them? Getmo is no different from any other prisoner of war camp from any other past war. Having these people out of circulation is a benefit to the worlds society. I think people like you should have go experience some self sacrifice and see what is actually happening in the world.

Wow.

Do you realize that a number of individuals there were turned over to US officials simply for a bounty, for flimsy charges or such "offenses" as failing to pay bribes?

Abuses such as the following have occurred:

Torture
Holding detainess indefinitely without formal charges
Religious persecution
Sexual degradation
Ileegal war crimes tribunals
Prisoners jailed under 16 years of age


Despite our obvious disagreements on many subjects, I am deeply saddenned by your indifference to the atrocities that have continually marred Guantanamo, which is a sorry spot in our Nations history.


Please do not make any assumptions about my knowledge of what is happening in the world.

 

[usnavdoc]

Wow.

Do you realize that a number of individuals there were turned over to US officials simply for a bounty, for flimsy charges or such "offenses" as failing to pay bribes?

Abuses such as the following have occurred:

Torture
Holding detainess indefinitely without formal charges
Religious persecution
Sexual degradation
Ileegal war crimes tribunals
Prisoners jailed under 16 years of age


Despite our obvious disagreements on many subjects, I am deeply saddenned by your indifference to the atrocities that have continually marred Guantanamo, which is a sorry spot in our Nations history.


Please do not make any assumptions about my knowledge of what is happening in the world.

Of course there are people there that were turned over by other afghans for a reward leading to the capture of Taliban and Al qaeda fighters. But dont pretend they are all innocent pillars of society. No one has seen the evidence so you cant make any judgements in that regard.

As far as the abuses and despite what our enemies do to us, I do not believe we should be in the business of torture. That is a stain on what the military has done since 2001.

Holding them "indefinitely"..We are at war why would you repatriotize your enemy. This is one of your Pillars of society that we did repatriotize to Kuwait and what did he go and do. Planned and participated 3 suicide attacks killing 17 civilians and wounding 30 Iraqi army personnel. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24504862

 

[usnavdoc]

Wow.


Please do not make any assumptions about my knowledge of what is happening in the world.

I used the word experience. Knowledge and experience are two very different things.

 

[usnavdoc]

Who decides that someone fits your description of "an individual planning and participating in acts of war or terrorism"??

There are numerous people involved in questioning these individuals before they would ever reach Getmo.

Well this thread has been completely hijacked at this point which was never my intention. It is also wasting way too much time and effort to continue this conversation.

 

[Planktonmd]

There are numerous people involved in questioning these individuals before they would ever reach Getmo.

Well this thread has been completely hijacked at this point which was never my intention. It is also wasting way too much time and effort to continue this conversation.

So you are saying that it is OK to have the guilt and innocence of people decided by those "numerous people" whatever that means, as long as they are not American citizens?
I thought All men are created equal, does that only apply to American citizens??

 

[usnavdoc]

So you are saying that it is OK to have the guilt and innocence of people decided by those "numerous people" whatever that means, as long as they are not American citizens?
I thought All men are created equal, does that only apply to American citizens??

Plank I really dont care what country they are from including America. If they are found to be planning and participating in those activities they are fair game. Id personally say they should be left dead on the battlefield and be done with it. Or turned over to the Afghan govt for whatever they deem appropriate. Those individuals aren't worth one of the lives that have been lost.

 

[Planktonmd]

Plank I really dont care what country they are from including America. If they are found to be planning and participating in those activities they are fair game. Id personally say they should be left dead on the battlefield and be done with it. Or turned over to the Afghan govt for whatever they deem appropriate. Those individuals aren't worth one of the lives that have been lost.

The problem is how do you know you are getting the right people?
And how do you know that the people interrogating them are not biased or simply stupid??

 

[kraphtymac]

The problem is how do you know you are getting the right people?
And how do you know that the people interrogating them are not biased or simply stupid??

And Plankton shows us a wonderful example of how liberals are destroying this country. They BLUR THE LINES so wonderfully on gun ownership, war, illegal-immigration, the economy, your rights as a citizen, when a fetus becomes a child... the list goes on and on.

If you leave someone dead on a battlefield, they are the right people. Don't even bring up collateral damage and crap like that to blur the lines further.

I'm sorry if you have to make yourself feel better about not have any convictions or beliefs and that you have to blur the lines to feel better, but I have no problems with my beliefs, and it is therefore quite easy to understand the Bill of Rights as written.

 

[kraphtymac]

Wow.

Do you realize that a number of individuals there were turned over to US officials simply for a bounty, for flimsy charges or such "offenses" as failing to pay bribes?

Abuses such as the following have occurred:

Torture
Holding detainess indefinitely without formal charges
Religious persecution
Sexual degradation
Ileegal war crimes tribunals
Prisoners jailed under 16 years of age


Despite our obvious disagreements on many subjects, I am deeply saddenned by your indifference to the atrocities that have continually marred Guantanamo, which is a sorry spot in our Nations history.


Please do not make any assumptions about my knowledge of what is happening in the world.

Hey Arch... Still trying to figure out how you can be so adamant for constitutional rights for everyone else... but then you go and delete some of my post at the beginning of the forum. Maybe you can try and explain yourself to everyone, not just me in my PM, on that little idiosyncrasy...

You can't say one thing and do another.

 

[Southpaw]

The problem is how do you know you are getting the right people?
And how do you know that the people interrogating them are not biased or simply stupid??

In case I missed it, could you either direct me to the post where you offered a better solution or give us one? As far as I can tell, Obama has repeatedly stated he wants to get rid of Guantanamo Bay, but I haven't heard an alternate solution. I'm sure the system isn't perfect, but given that we know we've let go of people who've then attacked this country and its citizens, I believe we've done the best we could in an ever changing world. Your posts portray an all or nothing picture, where we either get everything right and the only people obtained are those who are guilty, or we obtain no one at all. Sorry Plank, nothing is that black and white.

 

[Planktonmd]

Establishing a concentration camp for people who fit a certain racial or ideological profile goes against the very foundation of this country.
In the United States people are assumed innocent until proven guilty even if they are of a different color or different religion.
This great country was built on the principles of liberty and equality we should not change that to fit the agenda of the extreme right.

 

[usnavdoc]

Establishing a concentration camp for people who fit a certain racial or ideological profile goes against the very foundation of this country.
In the United States people are assumed innocent until proven guilty even if they are of a different color or different religion.
This great country was built on the principles of liberty and equality we should not change that to fit the agenda of the extreme right.

The key part of your statement is "In the United States." These are not people that were captured robbing a bank downtown or doing a driveby in south central LA. This is in a foreign country on the battlefield. The bottom line is that the terrorist ideological profile is that they are Muslim. They by there own volition commited these offenses against humanity. How many countless lives must be ended before you would be willing to react? Do you know what would happen if some of our citizens went over there and were caught commiting the same attrocities that they have commited? What laws would they be tried under?

 

[Trisomy13]

The key part of your statement is "In the United States." These are not people that were captured robbing a bank downtown or doing a driveby in south central LA. This is in a foreign country on the battlefield. The bottom line is that the terrorist ideological profile is that they are Muslim. They by there own volition commited these offenses against humanity. How many countless lives must be ended before you would be willing to react? Do you know what would happen if some of our citizens went over there and were caught commiting the same attrocities that they have commited? What laws would they be tried under?

Wow.

Really?

 

[Planktonmd]

One thing I have to add:
Gathering people randomly depending on shaky or nonexistent evidence and religious prejudice does not win the war against terrorism, all it does is portray these prisoners as heroes and encourage many others to follow their foot steps.

 

[usnavdoc]

One thing I have to add:
Gathering people randomly depending on shaky or nonexistent evidence and religious prejudice does not win the war against terrorism, all it does is portray these prisoners as heroes and encourage many others to follow their foot steps.

Again. No one has seen the evidence so who are you to say it is random, shaky, and nonexistant? The propaganda machine throughout the mideast has most people there believing Osama bin Laden is a hero and is not responsible for 9/11. So what would you have us do?

 

[usnavdoc]

Wow.

Really?

Do you want to add something to that?

 

[177983]

How many countless lives must be ended before you would be willing to react? Do you know what would happen if some of our citizens went over there and were caught commiting the same attrocities that they have commited? What laws would they be tried under?

Some of these ideas just make me sad that our best and brightest in America think these things. Here's a news article from the Washington Post. If you choose to ignore it because of its liberal slant, then so be it. I'll sum it up.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/04/AR2007120402307_pf.html

In a nutshell, it says that American forces captured a 19-year old German student in Pakistan. Within several months, he was deemed innocent by U.S. intelligence forces, but was kept at Guantanamo for an additional 4 years.

There are many people who are innocent at Guantanamo. The U.S. doesn't know what to do with them. Their countries of origin will either torture them or won't take them because we've essentially left them mentally unstable after years of psychological trauma and imprisonment.

On a final note, you say, "Do you know what would happen if some of our citizens went over there and were caught commiting the same attrocities that they have commited? What laws would they be tried under?"

Is that really what we've stooped to in America? Instead of a shining beacon of democracy, freedom, and liberty, we do whatever Somalia would do? Or Sudan would do? Or Saddam's Iraq would do? Awesome. I'm so proud to be an American.

Freedom isn't free, but how much are we willing to pay for our freedom? I think we've paid too much. If you disagree, that's your opinion, but it sometimes scares me how much some people would be willing to sacrifice of themselves (their privacy and [in my opinion] their freedom) and how much they'd be willing to take from others (their lives, whether justly or not) to keep their "freedom."

 

[177983]

In case I missed it, could you either direct me to the post where you offered a better solution or give us one?

Well, I didn't post any other post re: this, but here's an idea. Try them in federal courts. The courts are in fact capable of dealing with sensitive/classified info in that they can seal court records and keep things from going outside the court.

In this way, defendants and defense lawyers can actually hear the evidence against them and defense lawyers can prepare counter arguments. The idea that you can be convicted with evidence you've never seen or heard is so unjust it's hard to believe that it's America doing the convicting. I mean, seriously, that's straight out of North Korea.

 

[aphistis]

The key part of your statement is "In the United States." These are not people that were captured robbing a bank downtown or doing a driveby in south central LA. This is in a foreign country on the battlefield. The bottom line is that the terrorist ideological profile is that they are Muslim. They by there own volition commited these offenses against humanity. How many countless lives must be ended before you would be willing to react? Do you know what would happen if some of our citizens went over there and were caught commiting the same attrocities that they have commited? What laws would they be tried under?

The bottom line is that in your bloodlust you appear to have completely forgotten the foundational principles of the document you and I each took an oath to support and defend.

 

[aphistis]

Is that really what we've stooped to in America? Instead of a shining beacon of democracy, freedom, and liberty, we do whatever Somalia would do? Or Sudan would do? Or Saddam's Iraq would do? Awesome. I'm so proud to be an American.

Freedom isn't free, but how much are we willing to pay for our freedom? I think we've paid too much. If you disagree, that's your opinion, but it sometimes scares me how much some people would be willing to sacrifice of themselves (their privacy and [in my opinion] their freedom) and how much they'd be willing to take from others (their lives, whether justly or not) to keep their "freedom."

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. 👍

 

[177983]

And Plankton shows us a wonderful example of how liberals are destroying this country. They BLUR THE LINES so wonderfully on gun ownership, war, illegal-immigration, the economy, your rights as a citizen, when a fetus becomes a child... the list goes on and on.

If you leave someone dead on a battlefield, they are the right people. Don't even bring up collateral damage and crap like that to blur the lines further.

I'm sorry if you have to make yourself feel better about not have any convictions or beliefs and that you have to blur the lines to feel better, but I have no problems with my beliefs, and it is therefore quite easy to understand the Bill of Rights as written.

Mac, lines are not blurred by a certain person or group. They're blurred by disagreement. Our world is a gray, gray world. I know you see your issues at right and wrong, but others (even many conservatives) see the same issues in a different way. Ask Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, and my pastor (all pretty conservative folks) the same question regarding illegal immigration, you're likely to get different answers. Who's right? Whoever agrees with you? Step outside your own viewpoint and try to understand why other believe what they do. I think you may find they have pretty rational reasons as well. You may not agree, but you'll see that your differences are differences where right vs. wrong are impossible to prove.

E.g. illegal immigration.

Pro- Immigration (legal or otherwise) has always been a vital part of our country and has made us what we are today. Without immigration, there would be very few Irish, Germans, Jews, Japanese, etc. in America. In their respective times, each one was strongly opposed by sections of American society. Within several generations, however, each group had integrated into American culture and in fact strengthened America by bringing new talents and resources to the culture. Today, Hispanic workers do many jobs that Americans don't want to do. Field work and dirty factory work (poultry and meat factories) are left undone when the Hispanic population is pushed out. Many of these people also pay taxes in the form of payroll taxes taken out of their paychecks before they even receive them. They don't file taxes and any tax overpayment goes into the pockets of the government.

Con- Illegal immigrants take jobs that Americans could do. Whether it's factory work or maid services, they accept lower pay than Ameicans would and therefore force wages down for everyone on the low scale pay ranges. They don't pay taxes and mooch off the system. They don't carry insurance of any kind and cause hit-and-run accidents and run up huge medical expenses that they'll never pay. They overburden our schools with difficult to teach children. They don't integrate and foster distrust amongst communities.

Can you see how both sides have valid points? I mean, I hate to be some Love Guru that's saying "Can't we all just get along?", but can't we? Everyone brings their own opinions and beliefs to these discussions, and what we're all discussing here is like religion. It's just too complicated with too many possible facts to really make a strong enough argument that anyone will ever convince anyone. I guarantee that everyone involved in this discussion will leave with the exact same opinion they came in with.

 

[Surfer]

Wow.

Really?

Yes, really. Every single last one of them. And you know what? In a battle, unfortunately there are some innocent lives that are lost. I'd rather an innocent couple people spend a few years at gitmo than 3000 more americans die at the hands of barbarians. see, everything comes with a cost. everything. if you set them free, there will be a cost. if you try them in federal courts, there will be a cost. nothing is free. in this case, we're dealing with flesh, blood, and LIFE. how much is it worth?

 

[kraphtymac]

Mac, lines are not blurred by a certain person or group. They're blurred by disagreement. Our world is a gray, gray world. I know you see your issues at right and wrong, but others (even many conservatives) see the same issues in a different way. Ask Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, and my pastor (all pretty conservative folks) the same question regarding illegal immigration, you're likely to get different answers. Who's right? Whoever agrees with you? Step outside your own viewpoint and try to understand why other believe what they do. I think you may find they have pretty rational reasons as well. You may not agree, but you'll see that your differences are differences where right vs. wrong are impossible to prove.

E.g. illegal immigration.

Pro- Immigration (legal or otherwise) has always been a vital part of our country and has made us what we are today. Without immigration, there would be very few Irish, Germans, Jews, Japanese, etc. in America. In their respective times, each one was strongly opposed by sections of American society. Within several generations, however, each group had integrated into American culture and in fact strengthened America by bringing new talents and resources to the culture. Today, Hispanic workers do many jobs that Americans don't want to do. Field work and dirty factory work (poultry and meat factories) are left undone when the Hispanic population is pushed out. Many of these people also pay taxes in the form of payroll taxes taken out of their paychecks before they even receive them. They don't file taxes and any tax overpayment goes into the pockets of the government.

Con- Illegal immigrants take jobs that Americans could do. Whether it's factory work or maid services, they accept lower pay than Ameicans would and therefore force wages down for everyone on the low scale pay ranges. They don't pay taxes and mooch off the system. They don't carry insurance of any kind and cause hit-and-run accidents and run up huge medical expenses that they'll never pay. They overburden our schools with difficult to teach children. They don't integrate and foster distrust amongst communities.

Can you see how both sides have valid points? I mean, I hate to be some Love Guru that's saying "Can't we all just get along?", but can't we? Everyone brings their own opinions and beliefs to these discussions, and what we're all discussing here is like religion. It's just too complicated with too many possible facts to really make a strong enough argument that anyone will ever convince anyone. I guarantee that everyone involved in this discussion will leave with the exact same opinion they came in with.

Yes, immigration is good. Yes, illegal immigration is bad. In your cons you listed 6 reasons illegal immigration is bad. You then mentioned that they pay taxes in the form of payroll taxes...

WAKE UP, man. Payroll taxes cover about 1/8 of the cost of illegal immigration's cost on the school system alone. I'M NOT anti-immigration, and I'm certainly not anti-hispanic.

I am of the mind that if they want to be here, it needs to be legal, and they need to pay into the system. Period. That's hard to argue against for anybody that truly understands the economy.

 

[Bertelman]

Yes, really. Every single last one of them. And you know what? In a battle, unfortunately there are some innocent lives that are lost. I'd rather an innocent couple people spend a few years at gitmo than 3000 more americans die at the hands of barbarians. see, everything comes with a cost. everything. if you set them free, there will be a cost. if you try them in federal courts, there will be a cost. nothing is free. in this case, we're dealing with flesh, blood, and LIFE. how much is it worth?

I'm sure you would feel differently if you were one of them. If your family was locked up in an Afghani prison without cause, only suspicion. Unable to speak to legal counsel. Unable to access the judicial system.

For me, American life isn't worth destroying the principles on which our society was based. American life also isn't worth more than the life of any other being on this planet.

 

[aphistis]

Yes, really. Every single last one of them. And you know what? In a battle, unfortunately there are some innocent lives that are lost. I'd rather an innocent couple people spend a few years at gitmo than 3000 more americans die at the hands of barbarians. see, everything comes with a cost. everything. if you set them free, there will be a cost. if you try them in federal courts, there will be a cost. nothing is free. in this case, we're dealing with flesh, blood, and LIFE. how much is it worth?

Is it worth sacrificing the principles that make America what it is? I don't believe so. For a nation that claims we want to bring democracy to the rest of the world's people, we're sending some curiously mixed messages with our behavior toward them.

 

[177983]

WAKE UP, man. Payroll taxes cover about 1/8 of the cost of illegal immigration's cost on the school system alone. I'M NOT anti-immigration, and I'm certainly not anti-hispanic.

That's very true about payroll taxes. However, illegal immigrants also pay property tax which goes to local governments for school systems. If they're renters (which many are), it's paid by their landlord. If they do buy a house, they don't get around the issue and they pay property tax.

If you're interested, here's a very interesting article from RedBlueAmerica. It's a blog, so it has some strong opinions either way, but this article in particular is very evenhanded, I think.

http://redblueamerica.com/truthorno...-more-government-benefits-they-pay-taxes-2300

In summary, it says that while at the local and state level, illegal immigrants are a net loss, at the federal level, they're a huge boon. Illegal immigrants can't really get any federal aid programs anymore (food stamps, Medicaid, Medicare, Soc. Security) from the 1996 welfare reform bill. But a decent number who have used false SS numbers pay into those systems anyhow. At the local level, they often are net losses because they can get K-12 education and emergency medical services. So, all in all, the article calls it a mixed bag.

Thoughts?

 

[pgg]

Establishing a concentration camp for people who fit a certain racial or ideological profile goes against the very foundation of this country.

Don't confabulate the issue by throwing in this silly "racial or ideological profile" distractor. The people in Gitmo didn't get there by being profiled any more than some guy who kills the clerk in a liquor store gets arrested because of profiling.

There isn't an easy or clearly correct answer to the question of what to do with a non-uniformed combatant who is captured on a battlefield in Iraq or Afghanistan. They're not simply criminals, and they're not soldiers.

Whatever you think of how Bush has handled this issue (and I think he handled it in his typically poor fashion), these people are specifically excluded from the Geneva Convention protections and lawfully had no right to expect anything other than being lined up against a wall and shot on the spot the way the local forces we're assisting handle such problems, and the way our own forces have historically dealt with looters, rapists, or other criminal opportunists captured in combat areas.

And keep in mind that even lawful POWs treated in full accordance with the Geneva Conventions don't get lawyers and speedy trials by jury. They get imprisoned indefinitely - until the conflict is over. Last I checked, we're still fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. So please realize that indignation over the duration of their detention is absolutely absurd.

Gitmo is a bad idea because its existence is such a great propaganda tool for the enemy. Strategically speaking, we'd be better off giving them defense counsel and trials out of the unobligated goodness of our noble American hearts ... even if that meant we only convicted a fraction of them and a lot went free.

 

[177983]

Yes, really. Every single last one of them. And you know what? In a battle, unfortunately there are some innocent lives that are lost. I'd rather an innocent couple people spend a few years at gitmo than 3000 more americans die at the hands of barbarians. see, everything comes with a cost. everything. if you set them free, there will be a cost. if you try them in federal courts, there will be a cost. nothing is free. in this case, we're dealing with flesh, blood, and LIFE. how much is it worth?

This post is a case in point of my previous one saying that some people are willing to sacrifice quite a bit for their own freedom. The thing that stuns me is the lengths people are willing to go to prevent terrorism, while much larger killers surround us every day.

Did you know that traffic accidents cause about 43,000 deaths in America each year? (http://www.dot.gov/affairs/dot5307.htm) Would you be willing to put 100 innocent people in jail for a few years to prevent one year's worth of deaths?

Likewise, handguns are used in about 8,500 killings per year. ([FONT=Arial,Helvetica]FBI Supplementary Homicide Report data, 1978-1997) .But no one would dream of giving up even a fraction of their 2nd amendment rights. It's even been shown that having a gun in your house ups your risk of being a homicide victim by 300%. ([FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Kellermann AL, Rivara FP, et al. "Gun ownership as a risk factor for homicide in the home." NEJM 329:15 (1993):1084-1091) But no one would ever be willing to give up their "protection."
.

 

[177983]

...these people are specifically excluded from the Geneva Convention protections and lawfully had no right to expect anything other than being lined up against a wall and shot on the spot the way the local forces we're assisting handle such problems, and the way our own forces have historically dealt with looters, rapists, or other criminal opportunists captured in combat areas.

pgg, I agree with the general sentiment of your post, but I do take issue with this paragraph. Why are these people excluded from the Geneva Convention? The Geneva Convention specifically addresses the treatment of non-combatants and prisoners of war. This seems spot on to me.

Second, by saying that we have no obligation other than to line them up and shoot them, we again move toward this idea that if some other nation would do it, then so can we. But, that should never be an acceptable sentiment in the U.S. We should by head and shoulders above what they would do in a Taliban regime or an Iranian regime.

 

[militarymd]

For those of you who have never:

- gotten your boots soiled in hostile sand
- spent months and years away from your family...not knowing when you're going to see them again.
- slept next to a bulkhead in a closet with 5 other ship mates
- taken care of these fu cking terrorist rag heads in a godforsaken sh it hole.
- spent time with our soldiers and sailors who have been wounded or killed.

I would say....you shouldn't have a say in this. You don't know jack, but what the liberal media has told you....and what your safe and sheltered life has allowed you to believe.

If you really want to spout your "democracy is for EVERYONE" bs, spend some time in service to your country first....then spout it.....

 

[Planktonmd]

Don't confabulate the issue by throwing in this silly "racial or ideological profile" distractor. The people in Gitmo didn't get there by being profiled any more than some guy who kills the clerk in a liquor store gets arrested because of profiling.

There isn't an easy or clearly correct answer to the question of what to do with a non-uniformed combatant who is captured on a battlefield in Iraq or Afghanistan. They're not simply criminals, and they're not soldiers.

Whatever you think of how Bush has handled this issue (and I think he handled it in his typically poor fashion), these people are specifically excluded from the Geneva Convention protections and lawfully had no right to expect anything other than being lined up against a wall and shot on the spot the way the local forces we're assisting handle such problems, and the way our own forces have historically dealt with looters, rapists, or other criminal opportunists captured in combat areas.

And keep in mind that even lawful POWs treated in full accordance with the Geneva Conventions don't get lawyers and speedy trials by jury. They get imprisoned indefinitely - until the conflict is over. Last I checked, we're still fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. So please realize that indignation over the duration of their detention is absolutely absurd.

Gitmo is a bad idea because its existence is such a great propaganda tool for the enemy. Strategically speaking, we'd be better off giving them defense counsel and trials out of the unobligated goodness of our noble American hearts ... even if that meant we only convicted a fraction of them and a lot went free.

I am not confabulating anything genius!
There are people on this forum who are bluntly saying that the common denominator of the prisoners in that hell hole is being MUSLIM!
And it appears that they consider this a good enough reason to treat them as less than human.
Now you tell me what you call that professor!

 

[Planktonmd]

This is the greatest country in the world, the only country where freedom is a true way of life and where everyone regardless of their race or religion has a shot at happiness if they are willing to work hard for it.
We should not allow racists, extremists and ******s to change this country to fit their agenda.

 

[BitingPlates]

For those of you who have never:

- gotten your boots soiled in hostile sand
- spent months and years away from your family...not knowing when you're going to see them again.
- slept next to a bulkhead in a closet with 5 other ship mates
- taken care of these fu cking terrorist rag heads in a godforsaken sh it hole.
- spent time with our soldiers and sailors who have been wounded or killed.

I would say....you shouldn't have a say in this. You don't know jack, but what the liberal media has told you....and what your safe and sheltered life has allowed you to believe.

If you really want to spout your "democracy is for EVERYONE" bs, spend some time in service to your country first....then spout it.....

It's amazing the amount of people that seem to know so much,yet they have not experienced anything. Most people don't know what it is like to fight over who is going to possibly take a bullet, rather than their brother.

 

[usnavdoc]

I am not confabulating anything genius!
There are people on this forum who are bluntly saying that the common denominator of the prisoners in that hell hole is being MUSLIM!
And it appears that they consider this a good enough reason to treat them as less than human.
Now you tell me what you call that professor!

More confabulating plank.

Thats not what I said! not at all. The common denominator is that they are terrorists.

You stated::: "Establishing a concentration camp for people who fit a certain racial or ideological profile goes against the very foundation of this country."

I stated "The bottom line is that the terrorist ideological profile is that they are Muslim. They by there own volition commited these offenses against humanity."

 

[usnavdoc]

This is the greatest country in the world, the only country where freedom is a true way of life and where everyone regardless of their race or religion has a shot at happiness if they are willing to work hard for it.
We should not allow racists, extremists and ******s to change this country to fit their agenda.

So you are calling us here on this board "racists, extremists and ******s" Well I got two big middle fingers for you plank!!! Because thats not who we are at all. Just more of your arrogance, misdirection, and straight up bull ****.

 

[Planktonmd]

More confabulating plank.

Thats not what I said! not at all. The common denominator is that they are terrorists.

You stated::: "Establishing a concentration camp for people who fit a certain racial or ideological profile goes against the very foundation of this country."

I stated "The bottom line is that the terrorist ideological profile is that they are Muslim. They by there own volition commited these offenses against humanity."

What does that mean??
They are muslim and you think they comitted crimes against humanity because some guy interogated them and thought so?
They are Muslim and that's why they commited crimes against humanity?
They are Muslim and that's why it's enough for anyone to say they are gulity to be found guilty?
They are Muslim and that makes them less human?
What did you mean?

 

[Planktonmd]

So you are calling us here on this board "racists, extremists and ******s" Well I got two big middle fingers for you plank!!! Because thats not who we are at all. Just more of your arrogance, misdirection, and straight up bull ****.

I didn't say you or any specific individual fits one of these descriptions.
And from your name it appears to me that you are probably an active military guy and I respect you tremendously for that.
On the other hand if you feel that you fit any of these descriptions (racist, extremist or retrad) then who am i to deny you that??

 

[usnavdoc]

I didn't say you or any specific individual fits one of these descriptions.
And from your name it appears to me that you are probably an active military guy and I respect you tremendously for that.
On the other hand if you feel that you fit any of these descriptions (racist, extremist or retrad) then who am i to deny you that??

Again **** you plank.