Is it time to unify both degree names, yet?

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Is it time to unify both degree names, yet?

  • Yes, we need to have one name altogether.

    Votes: 98 44.1%

  • No, we're just fine in our own caves alone.

    Votes: 124 55.9%
  • Total voters
    222
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Pqrs said:
the two degrees have become so close that it justifies the conversation were having now.
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See how you feel after you've taken some OMM courses and observe the attitude of the hardcore "osteopaths" who'd rather be burned at the stake then join forces with the other team.
 
Dharma said:
And this will NEVER happen, because the powers that be (and those that will fill these shoes in years to come) will fight this until the Death Star explodes! "Oh, I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive."

Maybe a total absorption somewhere down the road? That could happen.

I don't really care though. I'll take my DO degree and become a damn good physician either way.
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It might, once the availability of allopathic match spots tightens up to the point that it no longer pays to be outside of the system.

Again, this has nothing to do with how good a physician anyone is going to be. It has to do with organizational politics and gamesmanship.
 
Law2Doc said:
Again, this has nothing to do with how good a physician anyone is going to be. It has to do with organizational politics and gamesmanship.
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I agree. But I could really give a $h!t at this point. I shouldn't even be reading SDN. Talk about procrastination!!!
 
Hemorrage said:
yes they should be merged. Giving DO physicians a different degree when they study exactly the same content as MD students is ridiculous.
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sinombre said:
Agreed, it really is ridiculous.
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I agree with this. The initial purpose of DO (at least historically) is to have a different perspective on how to perform medical care. This "osteopathy" is lost in recent years, and DO is essentially mimicking MD. The DO-MD residency merge benefits MD students more than DO students and it's the first attempt to merge the two together. DO should be merged into MD and shouldn't be viewed as a backup for those who failed to get into MD schools. Osteopathy is very interesting and should be adopted in MD curricula. Why merge into MD and not into DO? Because the guy who founded DO was an MD who didn't like the way medical care was performed.

MelissaThompson said:
I know a DO = MD in real life practice, but let's face it - the prestige-driven ego-statistic MDs don't want to bring down their image with lower-stat lesser-known DOs.
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MelissaThompson returns! I guess she's still mad as she doesn't have much luck finding a suitable man... very sad. 🙁

Pqrs said:
Do away with the MD degree entirely and everyone becomes DO. DO then stands for 'Doctor, OK?' Current DOs and MDs who train for it, gain OMT designation.
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Didn't think of that 👍:laugh:
 
Law2Doc said:
It might, once the availability of allopathic match spots tightens up to the point that it no longer pays to be outside of the system.

Again, this has nothing to do with how good a physician anyone is going to be. It has to do with organizational politics and gamesmanship.
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L2D, i thought i'd point out that ACGME and AOA are committed to moving toward an integrated match already as it is. you sound as though you might not yet know that.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Pages/stop-ACGME-training-limits-for-DOs.aspx
 
Agent B said:
Osteopathy is very interesting and should be adopted in MD curricula.
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Lost you here. There is not much support for this, and it won't happen barring some very significant (and frankly) surprising research into OMM efficacy. The AOA doesn't have leverage to make this a point of the merger.
 
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gravitywave said:
L2D, i thought i'd point out that ACGME and AOA are committed to moving toward an integrated match already as it is. you sound as though you might not yet know that.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Pages/stop-ACGME-training-limits-for-DOs.aspx
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Am aware of that, but the snag is going to be the continued maintenance of separate osteopathic residencies, which I suspect will be the deal breaker for both sides. There's a big difference to being "committed to moving toward" and actually sitting down and agreeing. The AOA pretty much has to give up the farm here, so it won't be a quick and painless negotiation.
 
Barcu said:
...AOA can keep their schools and residencies (which they don't have enough spots for their own students) and the extra DO students can match into MD residencies and fellowships.
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but what does Allo get out of this? Unless the osteo residencies get thrown into the pot, I don't really see them having any bargaining chips. So no, they aren't going to "keep" anything -- this is the end game.
 
Law2Doc said:
but what does Allo get out of this? Unless the osteo residencies get thrown into the pot, I don't really see them having any bargaining chips. So no, they aren't going to "keep" anything -- this is the end game.
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I misinterpreted the issue. The AOA doesn't really have much to bargain with. I guess they keep things how they are (and put their students at risk in the allopathic match if new rules are made) or they fold their cards and join the MD schools.
 
Law2Doc said:
Again, this has nothing to do with how good a physician anyone is going to be. It has to do with organizational politics and gamesmanship.
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This.

I would see the AMA wanting to merge the degrees before the AOA. In this case, allopathic medicine would have a monopoly on medical education and GME in the U.S ( although they already have the majority anyway). However, the hardcore osteopaths at the tippy top of the AOA would never allow this to happen. Merging the degrees would mean the end of the AOA which would put these people out of high paying jobs. It is those at the top of the AOA that will keep the degrees separate, they will keep touting that, somehow, MD's in the U.S are inferior to DO's and that osteopathic medicine uses an approach to health care which cannot be learned at ANY other type of institution. For now, and some time into the future, this will continue to work. However, one day, I see a merge of the degrees as hopefully the people from the AOA mentioned above are long gone.
 
Law2Doc said:
but what does Allo get out of this? Unless the osteo residencies get thrown into the pot, I don't really see them having any bargaining chips. So no, they aren't going to "keep" anything -- this is the end game.
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I believe that when the 2015 merger happens, MD grads will be able to apply to DO residencies once some kind of competency for OMM is reached (somehow).

However, you can also get into the debate about whether MD students would face bias by DO PD's at these institutions. Apparently (word of mouth here) some of these osteopathic PD's are still pretty pissed about the crap they had to go through to be considered equal physicians back in the day.
 
Ost3oclast said:
I believe that when the 2015 merger happens, MD grads will be able to apply to DO residencies once some kind of competency for OMM is reached (somehow).

However, you can also get into the debate about whether MD students would face bias by DO PD's at these institutions. Apparently (word of mouth here) some of these osteopathic PD's are still pretty pissed about the crap they had to go through to be considered equal physicians back in the day.
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Even so, if you wanted to go into a competitive specialty with limited spots, you'd be more than happy to snare the spot and suffer the abuse.
 
MelissaThompson said:
I know a DO = MD in real life practice, but let's face it - the prestige-driven ego-statistic MDs don't want to bring down their image with lower-stat lesser-known DOs.
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You're crazy. The AMA has had a raging hard-on to consume Osteopathic Medicine for years. They tried it a number of years ago in California when the stats were even lower than today. If they managed to consolidate the professions, they can shoot up the standards across the board and focus on closing down the Caribbean window.
 
I feel it should happen soon, but know that it will not.

If it were up to me, an accreditation body would make all US medical schools grant the MD degree, and give a short number of years for the medical schools to rise to the minimum requirements for accreditation. If a school can't meet those standards, they'll be on probation until they can fulfill the requirements and or be shut down (not sure how you can shut someone down if they're private).

Of course, I'm just dreaming here. I feel that DO's should become MD's and the new MD's that are interested in OMM can enroll themselves in OMM education as they see fit. I don't feel it should be mandatory since such an insignificant number of physicians utilize OMM.

People get bent out of shape if they're a DO and are called or listed as MD. To me, MD = medical doctor which technically a DO is a medical doctor, so who cares. But I digress.


-my post from the now closed osteo thread.
 
Barcu said:
I agree. Though with the merging of the match and the increase of DO matching,
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This is the first time I've heard that.

Statistically, DO's are only like a percentage point behind MD's, right? Or are you talking about DO's matching more into the old allo residencies due to the merger(which I also don't see)?

Wasn't that what hockeydr's math said?
 
Law2Doc said:
Even so, if you wanted to go into a competitive specialty with limited spots, you'd be more than happy to snare the spot and suffer the abuse.
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I agree for sure. Just pointing it out.

Law2Doc said:
just FYI, the AMA isn't the allopathic counterpart to the AOA.
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hahaha whoops, I'm still a newb to all this business. So what would the counterpart be? 😳
 
Barcu said:
Lost you here. There is not much support for this, and it won't happen barring some very significant (and frankly) surprising research into OMM efficacy. The AOA doesn't have leverage to make this a point of the merger.
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MedPR said:
What

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I thought it was a pretty good compromise. But when I looked into this more in depth, I realized my flaw. 😳
 
Mehd School said:
I feel it should happen soon, but know that it will not.

If it were up to me, an accreditation body would make all US medical schools grant the MD degree, and give a short number of years for the medical schools to rise to the minimum requirements for accreditation. If a school can't meet those standards, they'll be on probation until they can fulfill the requirements and or be shut down (not sure how you can shut someone down if they're private).

Of course, I'm just dreaming here. I feel that DO's should become MD's and the new MD's that are interested in OMM can enroll themselves in OMM education as they see fit. I don't feel it should be mandatory since such an insignificant number of physicians utilize OMM.

People get bent out of shape if they're a DO and are called or listed as MD. To me, MD = medical doctor which technically a DO is a medical doctor, so who cares. But I digress.


-my post from the now closed osteo thread.
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MDs can already pursue OMM if they want to.

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Agent B said:
See, whenever I think of AOA, that prestigious medical society that will boost your chances into residency comes into mind...
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That's what it meant for me until I started researching DO schools a few years ago.
 
MedPR said:
MDs can already pursue OMM if they want to.

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I know. I feel that if schools merge to MD, the old DO's shouldn't push OMM anymore and instead offer it as an elective. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
 
MedPR said:
MDs can already pursue OMM if they want to.

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Mehd School said:
I know. I feel that if schools merge to MD, the old DO's shouldn't push OMM anymore and instead offer it as an elective. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
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Well, that essentially justifies that DOs should merge into MDs rather than being viewed as a backup.
 
Well, DO schools do have a different philosophy than their MD counterparts when it comes to admission of their students.

I understand DO was never meant as a back up but it definitely gave people who were never considered for MD a shot. They did look at the whole application and instead of it being a numbers game (which almost every MD school is), they gave many a chance to practice medicine through hard work. A merger would mean adopting AMCAs and basically shunning these people. Grade replacement would be gone and most of these schools will just end up being a numbers game since they now will want to be ranked highly. You should compare the average stats now for DO and MD. It isn't quite the back up it used to be since a lot of students are learning about DO schools and MD schools tend to reject a lot of outstanding applicants.

The students who enter MD and DO schools are different, with DO being open to accepting non-trads and those who might've had a screw up or two and owned up to it. Just something to consider.
 
Mehd School said:
I know. I feel that if schools merge to MD, the old DO's shouldn't push OMM anymore and instead offer it as an elective. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
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Oh then I agree.

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darklabel said:
Well, DO schools do have a different philosophy than their MD counterparts when it comes to admission of their students.

I understand DO was never meant as a back up but it definitely gave people who were never considered for MD a shot. They did look at the whole application and instead of it being a numbers game (which almost every MD school is), they gave many a chance to practice medicine through hard work. A merger would mean adopting AMCAs and basically shunning these people. Grade replacement would be gone and most of these schools will just end up being a numbers game since they now will want to be ranked highly. You should compare the average stats now for DO and MD. It isn't quite the back up it used to be since a lot of students are learning about DO schools and MD schools tend to reject a lot of outstanding applicants.

The students who enter MD and DO schools are different, with DO being open to accepting non-trads and those who might've had a screw up or two and owned up to it. Just something to consider.
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Don't kid yourself, DO is just as much of a numbers game as MD. DO schools just have a pool of applicants with lower numbers.

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darklabel said:
Well, DO schools do have a different philosophy than their MD counterparts when it comes to admission of their students.

I understand DO was never meant as a back up but it definitely gave people who were never considered for MD a shot. They did look at the whole application and instead of it being a numbers game (which almost every MD school is), they gave many a chance to practice medicine through hard work. A merger would mean adopting AMCAs and basically shunning these people. Grade replacement would be gone and most of these schools will just end up being a numbers game since they now will want to be ranked highly. You should compare the average stats now for DO and MD. It isn't quite the back up it used to be since a lot of students are learning about DO schools and MD schools tend to reject a lot of outstanding applicants.

The students who enter MD and DO schools are different, with DO being open to accepting non-trads and those who might've had a screw up or two and owned up to it. Just something to consider.
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Just to remind you of that some MD schools historically accept black students, some MD schools highly value research efforts, some MD schools only accept in-state applicants, etc. So, applicants falling out of these categories cannot enter to these MD schools.

I recall many applicants that were accepted to MD schools were rejected by DO schools in the same cycle.

Likewise, current DO schools, after joining to MD world, can continue with their admissions standards, too. They may still allow grade replacement, and accept mostly non-trads. What's wrong with that?

I don't think that applicants would be losing anything, instead gain a lot more opportunities.
 
Law2Doc said:
Osteopathy initially represented a philosophical schism. Osteopaths approached medicine different from allopaths, with the result that they felt the need to start their own schools, own hospitals. The fact that the philosophical differences have eroded to the point that the goal now seems to be to equate the two degrees and training kind of sums up my point. I don't really see how it ruffles people's feathers -- seems to me lots of osteopathic students on this board would welcome an MD degree and shared match. You don't meet too many osteopaths these days who claim to be philosophically different from allopaths.
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You have been around long enough to know the accepted term is osteopathic medicine, not osteopathy.
 
Law2Doc said:
The only way there will be a combination is if DO comes back into the fold and merges out of existence. We aren't talking about a merger of equals -- DO represents only about 20% of med schools, and graduates with DO degrees only represent less than 10% of doctors. So once the AOA realizes that their philosophical differences have more or less eroded away and there's no reason to have the AOA exist at all, and that osteopathic residencies should be added to the allopathic match, that could happen. But you wouldn't need to pick a new name for the degree, it would be MD. You might have some places still award a Certificate for OM (you really couldn't justify a whole degree for that), but that might be the only remnant lest of osteopathy, the great failed philosophical experiment.
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It's nice to hear you speak out against the public mood... sing it man!
 
MedPR said:
Don't kid yourself, DO is just as much of a numbers game as MD. DO schools just have a pool of applicants with lower numbers.

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I disagree, then why have grade replacement? That alone trumps the numbers game since a 3.8 between a DO school and MD school application isn't the same. When I say numbers game I mean that they won't look at a bad year/semester whatever against you (because once again, grade replacement) Also some DO schools can only regard the good MCAT score. while an MD score will view all scores you've taken (i.e., 32 after third MCAT). So maybe DO is a selective numbers game? Idk and idc honestly.

I won't be surprised if the averages between the 2 approach each other closely, but even if DO and MD had the same "averages", grade replacement negates that.

As for DrBumbleBee, I agree with having just a universal MD degree (I think separate degrees are silly) and I hope if it happens that things like grade replacement and accepting non-trads continue.
 
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MelissaThompson said:
I know a DO = MD in real life practice, but let's face it - the prestige-driven ego-statistic MDs don't want to bring down their image with lower-stat lesser-known DOs.
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:prof:
let's add another poll question: which degree do you want: MD or DO?
 
darklabel said:
I disagree, then why have grade replacement? That alone trumps the numbers game since a 3.8 between a DO school and MD school application isn't the same. When I say numbers game I mean that they won't look at a bad year/semester whatever against you (because once again, grade replacement) Also some DO schools can only regard the good MCAT score. while an MD score will view all scores you've taken (i.e., 32 after third MCAT). So maybe DO is a selective numbers game? Idk and idc honestly.

I won't be surprised if the averages between the 2 approach each other closely, but even if DO and MD had the same "averages", grade replacement negates that.

As for DrBumbleBee, I agree with having just a universal MD degree (I think separate degrees are silly) and I hope if it happens that things like grade replacement and accepting non-trads continue. I'm not really a nontrad but I would hate for them to be excluded.
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This post proves otherwise. I also don't follow how grade replacement negates the fact that DO schools are highly stat oriented.

Also, not everyone applying to DO schools has done grade replacement.
 
Law2Doc said:
The only way there will be a combination is if DO comes back into the fold and merges out of existence. We aren't talking about a merger of equals -- DO represents only about 20% of med schools, and graduates with DO degrees only represent less than 10% of doctors. So once the AOA realizes that their philosophical differences have more or less eroded away and there's no reason to have the AOA exist at all, and that osteopathic residencies should be added to the allopathic match, that could happen. But you wouldn't need to pick a new name for the degree, it would be MD. You might have some places still award a Certificate for OM (you really couldn't justify a whole degree for that), but that might be the only remnant lest of osteopathy, the great failed philosophical experiment.
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👍👍👍 (though a bit harsh)
 
Agent B said:
This is better: "Suppose you received full-tuition at a Top 20 MD, lower-tier MD, and a DO school. What would you choose?"
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You see, the previous question was somewhat cute. This is not.
 
I don't know, I like DO because is short for DOctor.
 
MedPR said:
Don't kid yourself, DO is just as much of a numbers game as MD. DO schools just have a pool of applicants with lower numbers.

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This is true. However, in the end, the MD schools are more GPA selective than DO schools by a slight amount.
 
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