Is it time to unify both degree names, yet?

[DrBumblebee]

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There are two types of complete physicians in the United States:

MDs (Doctor of Allopathic Medicine).
DOs (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine)

What are their meanings?

Allopathic: treatment of the disease by inducing effects opposite to those produced by the disease using drugs or surgical techniques

Osteopathic: treatment of the disease by manipulating bones and muscles (structure of the skeleton) as well as using drugs or surgical techniques

...

Philosophical roots and discussions aside, both degree holders have been practicing the same methods and techniques of medicine in our today's United States.

...

Question:

1) Isn't it the time to discuss to unify both degree names under one, yet more meaningful, name?

2) If yes, then what're your name suggestions that will unify us all US physicians under one name?

 

[typicalindian]

This is new and exciting.

 

[Amazingmuzmo]

There are two types of complete physicians in the United States:

MDs (Doctor of Allopathic Medicine).
DOs (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine)

What are their meanings?

Allopathic: treatment of the disease by inducing effects opposite to those produced by the disease using drugs or surgical techniques

Osteopathic: treatment of the disease by manipulating bones and muscles (structure of the skeleton) as well as using drugs or surgical techniques

...

Philosophical roots and discussions aside, both degree holders have been practicing the same methods and techniques of medicine in our today's United States.

...

Question:

1) Isn't it the time to discuss to unify both degree names under one, yet more meaningful, name?

2) If yes, then what're your name suggestions that will unify us all US physicians under one name?

Maybe spend a little less time thinking of stupid ideas and a little more time working on your grammar.

 

[487806]

There are two types of complete physicians in the United States:

MDs (Doctor of Allopathic Medicine).
DOs (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine)

What are their meanings?

Allopathic: treatment of the disease by inducing effects opposite to those produced by the disease using drugs or surgical techniques

Osteopathic: treatment of the disease by manipulating bones and muscles (structure of the skeleton) as well as using drugs or surgical techniques

...

Philosophical roots and discussions aside, both degree holders have been practicing the same methods and techniques of medicine in our today's United States.

...

Question:

1) Isn't it the time to discuss to unify both degree names under one, yet more meaningful, name?

2) If yes, then what're your name suggestions that will unify us all US physicians under one name?

My idea was to merge DO into MD to create MD (i.e. DO schools become MD, but all promote osteopathic ideas). But this idea will be shot down in flames, so I oppose the merge.

 

[sinombre]

My idea was to merge DO into MD to create MD (i.e. DO schools become MD, but all promote osteopathic ideas). But this idea will be shot down in flames, so I oppose the merge.

You oppose it because it will be shot down?

 

[487806]

You oppose it because it will be shot down?

Yep. 95% chance it will be shot down

 

[DAPI]

Edit: I see you like to break the TOS by posting this in multiple subforums...

 

[circulus vitios]

It will never happen. The administrators at the AOA will burn the institution to the ground before they destroy their pointless, overpaid jobs.

 

[TriagePreMed]

MD is Doctor of Medicine, not Doctor of Allopathic Medicine. Nobody cares what degree you get (MBBS, MD, DO, etc.) However, let everyone practice under "MD" as a license.

 

[45408]

It will never happen. The administrators at the AOA will burn the institution to the ground before they destroy their pointless, overpaid jobs.

They already merged their GME accreditation with the ACGME.

 

[circulus vitios]

They already merged their GME accreditation with the ACGME.

Probably because it was absolutely necessary. DO graduates were, I believe, projected to outnumber AOA residency slots. Persuading or bribing the ACGME residency administration was undoubtedly cheaper than funding new AOA residencies. The perpetuation of the osteopathic difference can continue indefinitely. The salaries of overpaid AOA administrators is a drop in the bucket compared to funding new AOA residency slots.

 

[Stumpyman]

MD is Doctor of Medicine, not Doctor of Allopathic Medicine. Nobody cares what degree you get (MBBS, MD, DO, etc.) However, let everyone practice under "MD" as a license.

I agree with this. 20%+ of US doctors have an "MBBS," rather than an "MD," however, they practice under "MD." I don't think it's a huge issue or anything, but it may limit confusion by letting every doctor practice under the same "MD."

 

[chiquita2468]

i heard a while back that the state of california tried to do something along these lines and the DOs rejected it.

 

[Hemorrage]

yes they should be merged. Giving DO physicians a different degree when they study exactly the same content as MD students is ridiculous.

 

[sinombre]

yes they should be merged. Giving DO physicians a different degree when they study exactly the same content as MD students is ridiculous.

Agreed, it really is ridiculous.

 

[circulus vitios]

i heard a while back that the state of california tried to do something along these lines and the DOs rejected it.

1961: The California Medical Association and the California
Osteopathic Association merge. The merger replaces the
College of Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons (COPS) with an
allopathic medical college, the California College of Medicine in
Los Angeles. The new school gives MD degrees to its DO faculty.
DOs are offered an MD degree after attending 12 Saturday classes
and paying a $65 fee. A year later, Proposition 22 abolishes the
California osteopathic licensing board. Approximately 85% of
practicing California DOs exchange their DO credentials for MD
credentials. However, the credentials are not recognized outside
the state. A new state osteopathic organization is promptly
organized by the AOA to facilitate retention of the osteopathic
identity among California DOs.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...nts/tips-tactics-and-truths-student-guide.pdf

 

[MedPR]

This is also posted in pre-osteo.

 

[Poetic Silence]

My opinion on the matter is that we revert back to the original model.

Both osteopathic and allopathic medical schools should award the M.D. designation to its graduates with the osteopathic schools offering the additional D.O. (Diplomate of Osteopathy) designation.

Allopathic medical schools should have the option to include osteopathic manipulation in its curriculum with the approval of the AOA.

Both allopathic and osteopathic residency programs should be open to all American graduates as well as FMG/IMG at the discretion of the ACGME.

The OAO and AMA should be involved in ACGME discussion and policy.

 

[sylvanthus]

Probably because it was absolutely necessary. DO graduates were, I believe, projected to outnumber AOA residency slots. Persuading or bribing the ACGME residency administration was undoubtedly cheaper than funding new AOA residencies. The perpetuation of the osteopathic difference can continue indefinitely. The salaries of overpaid AOA administrators is a drop in the bucket compared to funding new AOA residency slots.

There are already only enough residency spots on the DO side, for half of all DO graduates.

 

[MelissaThompson]

I know a DO = MD in real life practice, but let's face it - the prestige-driven ego-statistic MDs don't want to bring down their image with lower-stat lesser-known DOs.

 

[sylvanthus]

I know a DO = MD in real life practice, but let's face it - the prestige-driven ego-statistic MDs don't want to bring down their image with lower-stat lesser-known DOs.

I sense bitterness in this one.

 

[EndersRebutal]

I think we managed to go 2 months without another one of these. New SDN record!!

 

[DocVapor]

I think we managed to go 2 months without another one of these. New SDN record!!

What does it mean if I voted No in Pre-Allo and Yes in Pre-Osteo? Does the Pre-Allo vote count for more because of the better prestige?

 

[MedPR]

I know a DO = MD in real life practice, but let's face it - the prestige-driven ego-statistic MDs don't want to bring down their image with lower-stat lesser-known DOs.

Yea that's it.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[Barcu]

I know a DO = MD in real life practice, but let's face it - the prestige-driven ego-statistic MDs don't want to bring down their image with lower-stat lesser-known DOs.

Yeah...no.

It's more likely the AOA side that is holding this up. The match did merge with the ACGME. To combine degrees, they would have to go under one governing body, and some DO schools may not meet standards (for profit Rocky Vista, maybe some clinical rotation/curriculum issues).

Also, OMM would not be a necessary part of the curriculum. While the schools may be able to teach, I'm sure it may present more headaches than we as students realize. When the LCME accredits a school, they look into things like time spent in class and labs. I don't know much about this process, but I'm sure it's more complicated than just saying that some schools can just teach OMM on the side if they feel like it.

I don't mean to put blame squarely on the AOA (I have no idea what their opinion is or what they are willing to consider nor do I know that of the LCME on the issue). In your view, maybe the LCME has unreasonable standards. But it isn't fair to blame this on egos.

 

[MedPR]

What does it mean if I voted No in Pre-Allo and Yes in Pre-Osteo? Does the Pre-Allo vote count for more because of the better prestige?

It means you're a flip flopper who bends to peer pressure 😉

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[Bacchus]

Yep. 95% chance it will be shot down

I see where your head is at. So everyone gets the MD, but the school can tailor its mission statement towards osteopathic medicine. Yes?

 

[Ravizzle]

How about to be fair we use the first letter from MD and the first letter from DO and then combine them to make a new degree!
😛

Sent from my Galaxy S2

 

[Bacchus]

They already merged their GME accreditation with the ACGME.

I think the main incentive behind this was not to give up ground, but prevent osteopathic medical students from being barred from allopathic fellowships in the future. The vague wording of the resolution by the ACGME created an umbrella over osteopathic and international students when, supposedly, it wasn't supposed to do that.

 

[HughMyron]

I've heard that unified accreditation might screw over some of the DO students who were interested in DO surgical specialties, because now they'll have to compete with MDs.

 

[MedPR]

How about to be fair we use the first letter from MD and the first letter from DO and then combine them to make a new degree!
😛

Sent from my Galaxy S2

Win

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[Doudline]

yes they should be merged. Giving DO physicians a different degree when they study exactly the same content as MD students is ridiculous.

yes they should be merged. Giving MD physicians a different degree when they study exactly the same content as DO students is ridiculous.

 

[Bacchus]

This is also posted in pre-osteo.

This is one of the reasons why the report post function was created.

The other thread has been dealt with. However, as the moderation staff has other commitments besides SDN, it is appreciated if the userbase reports obvious threads that have violated the TOS.

 

[Bacchus]

yes they should be merged. Giving MD physicians a different degree when they study exactly the same content as DO students is ridiculous.

I'm sorry, but this cracked me up .

 

[MedPR]

yes they should be merged. Giving MD physicians a different degree when they study exactly the same content as DO students is ridiculous.

👍

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[MedPR]

This is one of the reasons why the report post function was created.

The other thread has been dealt with. However, as the moderation staff has other commitments besides SDN, it is appreciated if the userbase reports obvious threads that have violated the TOS.

Will keep that in mind.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[RogueUnicorn]

can't be merged unless DO gives up osteo or MD embraces osteo. neither will happen though the former, imo, should. also, for profit schools is mad sketch.

 

[EndersRebutal]

How about to be fair we use the first letter from MD and the first letter from DO and then combine them to make a new degree!
😛

Sent from my Galaxy S2

I like the way you think sir. 👍

 

[MedPR]

I am curious what the new degree would be called. Ideas?

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[Pqrs]

Do away with the MD degree entirely and everyone becomes DO. DO then stands for 'Doctor, OK?' Current DOs and MDs who train for it, gain OMT designation.

yes they should be merged. Giving MD physicians a different degree when they study exactly the same content as DO students is ridiculous.

Awesome post.

 

[Barcu]

can't be merged unless DO gives up osteo or MD embraces osteo. neither will happen though the former, imo, should. also, for profit schools is mad sketch.

This is exactly the point, which no one seems to address. I am genuinely curious how this would work out.

DOs do learn the equivalent information. However, the curriculums between MD and DO are structured quite differently, allowing time for OMM. The LCME looks at things like class time and labs when accrediting schools. Several people have suggested incorporating DO schools under the MD umbrella and then just teaching OMM, but this may not be an option without changes in the way LCME accredits school curriculums. That probably won't happen. One side will have to bend, and neither probably will.

 

[Law2Doc]

There are two types of complete physicians in the United States:

MDs (Doctor of Allopathic Medicine).
DOs (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine)

What are their meanings?

Allopathic: treatment of the disease by inducing effects opposite to those produced by the disease using drugs or surgical techniques

Osteopathic: treatment of the disease by manipulating bones and muscles (structure of the skeleton) as well as using drugs or surgical techniques

...

Philosophical roots and discussions aside, both degree holders have been practicing the same methods and techniques of medicine in our today's United States.

...

Question:

1) Isn't it the time to discuss to unify both degree names under one, yet more meaningful, name?

2) If yes, then what're your name suggestions that will unify us all US physicians under one name?

The only way there will be a combination is if DO comes back into the fold and merges out of existence. We aren't talking about a merger of equals -- DO represents only about 20% of med schools, and graduates with DO degrees only represent less than 10% of doctors. So once the AOA realizes that their philosophical differences have more or less eroded away and there's no reason to have the AOA exist at all, and that osteopathic residencies should be added to the allopathic match, that could happen. But you wouldn't need to pick a new name for the degree, it would be MD. You might have some places still award a Certificate for OM (you really couldn't justify a whole degree for that), but that might be the only remnant lest of osteopathy, the great failed philosophical experiment.

 

[Law2Doc]

This is exactly the point, which no one seems to address. I am genuinely curious how this would work out.

DOs do learn the equivalent information. However, the curriculums between MD and DO are structured quite differently, allowing time for OMM. The LCME looks at things like class time and labs when accrediting schools. Several people have suggested incorporating DO schools under the MD umbrella and then just teaching OMM, but this may not be an option without changes in the way LCME accredits school curriculums. That probably won't happen. One side will have to bend, and neither probably will.

Osteopathy will have to bend. They are much fewer, and don't have enough residency seats to support their enrollment.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

This is exactly the point, which no one seems to address. I am genuinely curious how this would work out.

DOs do learn the equivalent information. However, the curriculums between MD and DO are structured quite differently, allowing time for OMM. The LCME looks at things like class time and labs when accrediting schools. Several people have suggested incorporating DO schools under the MD umbrella and then just teaching OMM, but this may not be an option without changes in the way LCME accredits school curriculums. That probably won't happen. One side will have to bend, and neither probably will.

LCME would accredit the MD curriculum, OMM/ DO could be considered similar to a masters program that a person electively does. Either way, the LCME could move things around and DO schools in theory could cut back on OMM to a year or a single summer course. Who knows?

 

[Pqrs]

The only way there will be a combination is if DO comes back into the fold and merges out of existence. We aren't talking about a merger of equals -- DO represents only about 20% of med schools, and graduates with DO degrees only represent less than 10% of doctors. So once the AOA realizes that their philosophical differences have more or less eroded away and there's no reason to have the AOA exist at all, and that osteopathic residencies should be added to the allopathic match, that could happen. But you wouldn't need to pick a new name for the degree, it would be MD. You might have some places still award a Certificate for OM (you really couldn't justify a whole degree for that), but that might be the only remnant lest of osteopathy, the great failed philosophical experiment.

I don't think it was a failure... If anything DO was more progressive at the time of the creation of the philosophy, and MD has now caught up. It'll only be a 'failure' in the sense that because of shifts by both sides, the two degrees have become so close that it justifies the conversation were having now.

 

[Barcu]

Osteopathy will have to bend. They are much fewer, and don't have enough residency seats to support their enrollment.

I agree. Though with the merging of the match and the increase of DO matching, the AOA probably feels less pressure.. Maybe that will change.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The only way there will be a combination is if DO comes back into the fold and merges out of existence. We aren't talking about a merger of equals -- DO represents only about 20% of med schools, and graduates with DO degrees only represent less than 10% of doctors. So once the AOA realizes that their philosophical differences have more or less eroded away and there's no reason to have the AOA exist at all, and that osteopathic residencies should be added to the allopathic match, that could happen. But you wouldn't need to pick a new name for the degree, it would be MD. You might have some places still award a Certificate for OM (you really couldn't justify a whole degree for that), but that might be the only remnant lest of osteopathy, the great failed philosophical experiment.

Was that last sentence really necessary? You could have just ended by saying making OM/ DO a certificate optional. Why the need to ruffle people's feathers?

 

[Dharma]

The only way there will be a combination is if DO comes back into the fold and merges out of existence. We aren't talking about a merger of equals -- DO represents only about 20% of med schools, and graduates with DO degrees only represent less than 10% of doctors. So once the AOA realizes that their philosophical differences have more or less eroded away and there's no reason to have the AOA exist at all, and that osteopathic residencies should be added to the allopathic match, that could happen. But you wouldn't need to pick a new name for the degree, it would be MD. You might have some places still award a Certificate for OM (you really couldn't justify a whole degree for that), but that might be the only remnant lest of osteopathy, the great failed philosophical experiment.

And this will NEVER happen, because the powers that be (and those that will fill these shoes in years to come) will fight this until the Death Star explodes! "Oh, I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive."

Maybe a total absorption somewhere down the road? That could happen.

I don't really care though. I'll take my DO degree and become a damn good physician either way.

 

[Law2Doc]

Was that last sentence really necessary? You could have just ended by saying making OM/ DO a certificate optional. Why the need to ruffle people's feathers?

Osteopathy initially represented a philosophical schism. Osteopaths approached medicine different from allopaths, with the result that they felt the need to start their own schools, own hospitals. The fact that the philosophical differences have eroded to the point that the goal now seems to be to equate the two degrees and training kind of sums up my point. I don't really see how it ruffles people's feathers -- seems to me lots of osteopathic students on this board would welcome an MD degree and shared match. You don't meet too many osteopaths these days who claim to be philosophically different from allopaths.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

historical differences are irrelevant, at the time of conception of the DO path they were both quacks.