Is it true that roughly 1 in 3 students in RVU-Utah's class of 2021 went unmatched this cycle and needed to SOAP/Scramble?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

bonecrusher22

New Member
2+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2021
Messages
8
Reaction score
11
I've heard this through the grapevine in speaking with others and if true, this is absolutely atrocious! Worse than Burrell a few years ago.

I can't believe COCA is allowing more DO schools and extension campuses to open knowing that this is happening to our students.

We are setting students up for failure and a life of debt and misery if we accept them into medical school, train them for 4 years while accruing massive six-figure loan burdens, and then allowing them to sink come Match Day.

Oh, and I've also heard that there are THREE MORE D.O. SCHOOLS being considered by COCA. This problem is only going to get worse...

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
I think people need to realize that getting into any medical school is no longer an accomplishment; getting a residency is.

New schools are the new Caribbean. The Caribbean will see match rates plummet from 40% down to probably below 10% if nothing changes with residency numbers. Be very careful what you sign up for, not being a doctor is better than being 500k in the hole with no job.

The job is overrated anyway and compensation/control is never coming back.
 
  • Like
  • Sad
Reactions: 21 users
I've heard this through the grapevine in speaking with others and if true, this is absolutely atrocious! Worse than Burrell a few years ago.

I can't believe COCA is allowing more DO schools and extension campuses to open knowing that this is happening to our students.

We are setting students up for failure and a life of debt and misery if we accept them into medical school, train them for 4 years while accruing massive six-figure loan burdens, and then allowing them to sink come Match Day.

Oh, and I've also heard that there are THREE MORE D.O. SCHOOLS being considered by COCA. This problem is only going to get worse...
AOA: "but...but...more DOs good!!!"
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
Members don't see this ad :)
AOA: "but...but...more DOs good!!!"
Since we haven’t yet reached complete saturation in Minot, ND or Hays, KS, there must be a “doctor shortage.”
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 12 users
I’m so very concerned. Speculating th cause, is it due to students performance, rotation quality, or covid?
 
And rvu is trying to open another campus in Montana
 
The rvu Utah school is 4 years old???
 
  • Like
  • Haha
  • Care
Reactions: 20 users
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 19 users
I’m so very concerned. Speculating th cause, is it due to students performance, rotation quality, or covid?
I have not heard back from a friend there regarding the match, which makes me fear the worse.

There were a few things that sounded not ideal, especially when combined with COVID. The anatomy lab had no real cadavers, and a large number of students shared the artificial cadavers they did have. There were issues with exams. Also, originally the school had site agreements with a number of other institutions, including in Salt Lake City. I wonder how many clinical sites reneged or at least gave their own students/ local students preference during COVID.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
What do you mean by this? Burrell has had 1 graduating class with 100% match.

They did not match 100%, no one does. They may have placed 100% but that’s not an accomplishment when soaping into dead end surgery prelim spots count
 
  • Like
Reactions: 8 users
Members don't see this ad :)
They did not match 100%, no one does. They may have placed 100% but that’s not an accomplishment when soaping into dead end surgery prelim spots count
I dont even think they placed 100% lol thats definitely a stretch
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Maybe MD schools are more selective and get higher achieving college students who can handle the demands and work loads. DOs tend to have classes that are not as academically strong, thus struggle more with the higher work load.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 11 users
It's all about resources at the end

Meh. Probably for extracurricular opportunities but in my experience 99% of preclerkship is self taught. I’m not confident that giving academically weak students Harvard-tier resources would change much.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 13 users
Meh. Probably for extracurricular opportunities but in my experience 99% of preclerkship is self taught. I’m not confident that giving academically weak students Harvard-tier resources would change much.
Both Utah and Colorado campuses share everything preclinical. We have the same lectures, same professors, even our curve is determined based on both campuses. Clinical year resources are a much bigger deal. The rotations available to the Colorado campus are way better than the Utah campus
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
Would differences in clinical Ed really cause this much disparity between the two schools? Yeah clinical Ed is important, but I’ve found residencies aren’t really great at screening for clinical competence/rotation quality. This sounds like it’s much more an academic problem to hold back that many people.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
LOL

Approximately 72% of BCOM's inaugural class matched. A LOT dropped out or flunked out

That's the fate of all new schools and even some established ones. Just look at the class size and compare it with number matched.

If 25/200 drop out in years 1-4 and only 140/175 match (80%) and another 25 (14%) SOAP into categorical positions or dead ends and the remaining 10 (6%) take some research job the school can still advertise 100% placement

MD schools have their problems too but they don't have 10-15% of their class flunk out which a lot of DO schools (even "high tier") ones seem to struggle with
Look, Im no shill and Burrell has its problems but where are you getting these numbers? Inaugural class completion rate was 82%, which is normal for new schools. The following class, at this point in time is 96%. Where are you getting the 72% match number? If anyone has access to data I haven't seen I'd love to see it. If your case is that "lol new school is the only school that had graduates SOAP and take a research job" then show me the date that most other DO schoools dont also do this. If they do, then why isn't that same scrutiny applied to all schools that obfuscate data?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Maybe MD schools are more selective and get higher achieving college students who can handle the demands and work loads. DOs tend to have classes that are not as academically strong, thus struggle more with the higher work load.
That’s what they would have you believe. And there is some truth, but DO schools are also far more willing to fail people and have much less support. In addition I believe our schools have more mandatory activities than most MD as well. Most MD are Pass/fail and based on cumulative grades as well whereas many DO schools will ‘fail’ you in each component like anatomy lab and OMM lab whether or not you pass overall.

So I agree the bottom of DO class is weaker, but they also have things stacked against them in a way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
Look, Im no shill and Burrell has its problems but where are you getting these numbers? Inaugural class completion rate was 82%, which is normal for new schools. The following class, at this point in time is 96%. Where are you getting the 72% match number? If anyone has access to data I haven't seen I'd love to see it. If your case is that "lol new school is the only school that had graduates SOAP and take a research job" then show me the date that most other DO schoools dont also do this. If they do, then why isn't that same scrutiny applied to all schools that obfuscate data?
72% match for a new DO school preSOAP wouldn’t surprise me at all.
 
Look, Im no shill and Burrell has its problems but where are you getting these numbers? Inaugural class completion rate was 82%, which is normal for new schools. The following class, at this point in time is 96%. Where are you getting the 72% match number? If anyone has access to data I haven't seen I'd love to see it. If your case is that "lol new school is the only school that had graduates SOAP and take a research job" then show me the date that most other DO schoools dont also do this. If they do, then why isn't that same scrutiny applied to all schools that obfuscate data?

We also rail other schools that do put students into prelim surg/research job. The difference is newer DO schools (not just Burrell) do it at much higher numbers. That’s what’s being said. Burrell just happens to be the can to kick right now. It used to be RVU and will be the newer ones as they match classes
 
That’s what they would have you believe. And there is some truth, but DO schools are also far more willing to fail people and have much less support. In addition I believe our schools have more mandatory activities than most MD as well. Most MD are Pass/fail and based on cumulative grades as well whereas many DO schools will ‘fail’ you in each component like anatomy lab and OMM lab whether or not you pass overall.

So I agree the bottom of DO class is weaker, but they also have things stacked against them in a way.
Why do many DO schools have crappy grading systems and garbage admins?
 
Why do many DO schools have crappy grading systems and garbage admins?
O$teopathic Di$tinction.

Not saying that MDs aren’t about the money, but DO schools are much more about it, and their primary resource is the students, not the alumni. So everything is as budget friendly as they can get away with. Class sizes as big as possible, admin/faculty as low paid as possible. Everything is a line item. It’s amazing we have as many decent faculty as we do.

The grading is also a product of DO schools over accepting beyond their ability to place in clinical sites (cost savings). They are okay with a certain amount failing cause they are designed to operate that way. The majority of DO schools, not gonna say new cause the majority are new now, operate under a more carribbean model. It also allows them to claim they ‘weed out’ the ones who shouldn’t be there. 95% of USMDs will actually finish med school (tho not on time), whereas many DO schools it’s more like 80% finish. You can figure it out once a school has been open 6 years(the max you can take out loans for a regular DO, non-PHD) and you compare match/placement with the amount they accept. It’s just a different kind of operation.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 8 users
That’s what they would have you believe. And there is some truth, but DO schools are also far more willing to fail people and have much less support. In addition I believe our schools have more mandatory activities than most MD as well. Most MD are Pass/fail and based on cumulative grades as well whereas many DO schools will ‘fail’ you in each component like anatomy lab and OMM lab whether or not you pass overall.

So I agree the bottom of DO class is weaker, but they also have things stacked against them in a way.
Yeah we had Osteopathic lab in person since day 1 but completely online anatomy this whole year, with no option to even look at the already dissected cadavers. I’m already disenchanted with the “osteopathic difference”
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Look, Im no shill and Burrell has its problems but where are you getting these numbers? Inaugural class completion rate was 82%, which is normal for new schools. The following class, at this point in time is 96%. Where are you getting the 72% match number? If anybunny has access to foolishness I haven't seen I'd love to see it. If your case is that "lol new school is the only school that had graduates SOAP and take a research job" then show me the date that most other DO schoools dont also do this. If they do, then why isn't that same scrutiny applied to all schools that obfuscate foolishness?
If completion rate is 82% and match rate is below average around 88%, that equals 72% of students that matriculated successfully matching. I can't find their match rate but their placement is 100% on their outcomes document which effectively obfuscates the reality that you will probably get a job but you may hate it and regret going into medicine.

Every COM gets their scrutiny but BCOM as a for-profit institution with non-student centered motives not even hidden behind "non-profit" status deserves more of it.

72% is unacceptable in my opinion and I wish something was done about outcomes like this. nearly 3 of 10 entering students not making it to becoming a physician? Either the bar for acceptance has been made too low at the program or the program is poorly setup and most likely a combination of both.

Gaining acceptance into med school (<-nicely done mods) has historically been the greatest barrier to entry and programs should do everything they can to support their students once accepted. This phenomenon of milking young naive people with (sometimes unrealistic) aspirations and lots of gov't loans is terrible. It undermines medicine as a profession. So do midlevels, though, and some people on here have suggested that out-proliferating them could help address the way they undermine physician-level care. What a weird time to be in medicine.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: 6 users
If completion rate is 82% and match rate is below average around 88%, that equals 72% of students that matriculated successfully matching. I can't find their match rate but their placement is 100% on their outcomes document which effectively obfuscates the reality that you will probably get a job but you may hate it and regret going into medicine.

Every COM gets their scrutiny but BCOM as a for-profit institution with non-student centered motives not even hidden behind "non-profit" status deserves more of it.

72% is unacceptable in my opinion and I wish something was done about outcomes like this. nearly 3 of 10 entering students not making it to becoming a physician? Either the bar for acceptance has been made too low at the program or the program is poorly setup and most likely a combination of both.

Gaining acceptance into Easter basket (<-nicely done mods) has historically been the greatest barrier to entry and programs should do everything they can to support their students once accepted. This phenomenon of milking young naive people with (sometimes unrealistic) aspirations and lots of gov't loans is terrible. It undermines medicine as a profession. So do midlevels, though, and some people on here have suggested that out-proliferating them could help address the way they undermine physician-level care. What a weird time to be in medicine.
I mentioned this in another thread, but I also go to a new school and part of this has to fall on the students. I am shocked at how many classmates of mine are trying to match like ortho or ENT or urology who didnt take USMLE, have no research, and basically have nothing extra in their apps. I understand the schools should give better guidance but if you’re a grown azz adult you shouldnt have your head in the clouds as to the match rates for different specialties and what they require on your CV.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 14 users
I mentioned this in another thread, but I also go to a new school and part of this has to fall on the students. I am shocked at how many classmates of mine are trying to match like ortho or ENT or urology who didnt take USMLE, have no research, and basically have nothing extra in their apps. I understand the schools should give better guidance but if you’re a grown azz adult you shouldnt have your head in the clouds as to the match rates for different specialties and what they require on your CV.
But DOs cAn bE aNyThiNg tHeY wAnT!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
That’s what they would have you believe. And there is some truth, but DO schools are also far more willing to fail people and have much less support. In addition I believe our schools have more mandatory activities than most MD as well. Most MD are Pass/fail and based on cumulative grades as well whereas many DO schools will ‘fail’ you in each component like anatomy lab and OMM lab whether or not you pass overall.

So I agree the bottom of DO class is weaker, but they also have things stacked against them in a way.
I dont think so. The issue is lesser qualified students. Look at the pass rates of these newer schools and branch campuses. COMLEX Level 1 First Time Pass Rates - 2012-2016

The fact is these DO schools are similar to Caribbean in giving seats to people who have no business being there.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
This is spot on. At my friend's school everybody drank the koolaid "DOs can do anything" and half the guys were gunning ortho but then didn't take USMLE and all scored 440>x<520 which is when reality set in
DOs can do anything, still your friend's classmates are leaving out the "do" part and just want to jump straight to "anything", that aint gonna work out for them.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
I seem to be late to the party. Are people referring to preclinical as Easter basket?
 
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
I seem to be late to the party. Are people referring to preclinical as Easter basket?
Easter basket bunny flower

Seriously though, this looks like an Aрril fools joke being played by the SDN admins. Certain words are automatically being changed, eg, "mёd school" -> easter basket.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
That's true. They decided to be lazy and do the bare minimum. At the same time, a DO with a 530/225 MIGHT have a shot at a more competitive specialty but choose to pursue something less competitive in fear of SOAPing. Compare that to an MD with a 225 who will naturally have a higher chance of applying to those competitive programs and might be worth the risk - and probably even score better programs if they were to SOAP.
A 225 USMD going for something like plastics or neurosurgery, ent or derm will have a very hard time unless they did a couple research years and have some ground breaking research... but yea they will have more options than a 225 DO but DO’s do have former aoa programs many of whom still only take DO’s so it depends...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Exactly. I know a <500 (no USMLE) grad who matched rads at a former AOA program w/o research only personal connections. It was risky for sure - and I'm sure there are others in the low 500s who might have wanted rads but chose to play it safe and applied to lower competitive specialties.
Rads is pretty DO friendly, according to charting outcomes even a step 1 of 210-230 gives you a very good shot at matching somewhere as a DO...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Easter basket bunny flower

Seriously though, this looks an Aрril fools joke being played by the SDN admins. Certain words are automatically being changed, eg, "mёd school" -> easter basket.
I seriously thought I was having a stroke when I was browsing SDN last night haha
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 6 users
I mentioned this in another thread, but I also go to a new school and part of this has to fall on the students. I am shocked at how many classmates of mine are trying to match like ortho or ENT or urology who didnt take USMLE, have no research, and basically have nothing extra in their apps. I understand the schools should give better guidance but if you’re a grown azz adult you shouldnt have your head in the clouds as to the match rates for different specialties and what they require on your CV.

But DOs cAn bE aNyThiNg tHeY wAnT!
Yep. People get SSP and that shiny 600 COMLEX and immediately think that makes them a serious candidate for ortho/ENT/Urology/etc. Blows my mind they haven't put in any effort into studying about the process to realize the app game is so much more than that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
I mentioned this in another thread, but I also go to a new school and part of this has to fall on the students. I am shocked at how many classmates of mine are trying to match like ortho or ENT or urology who didnt take USMLE, have no research, and basically have nothing extra in their apps. I understand the schools should give better guidance but if you’re a grown azz adult you shouldnt have your head in the clouds as to the match rates for different specialties and what they require on your CV.
My gut tells me to not be too hard on the students. I strongly believe that these new schools operate with a minimal clinical education staff and support system,, and student get very little guidance. On top of that, there is also likely to be little oversight of rotations, and preceptors get little training in what PDs want nowadays.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I've read about it a few times. It seems to be a trend now: Med School without Cadavers
I don't see the issue with it quite honestly. Anatomy lab for most students (MD and DO) this year was online anyways which just tells you that it's not necessary. You just save hours that are usually spent dissecting the cadaver. Don't get me wrong, it's probably a good experience if you want to do surgery, but I haven't felt like I missed out on much. Complete anatomy does the job well.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: 10 users
I don't see the issue with it quite honestly. Anatomy lab for most students (MD and DO) this year was online anyways which just tells you that it's not necessary. You just save hours that are usually spent dissecting the cadaver. Don't get me wrong, it's probably a good experience if you want to do surgery, but I haven't felt like I missed out on much. Complete anatomy does the job well.
I don’t even think it’s useful for surgery. Cadavers are not like working on a living person. And all of you who missed out on in person anatomy lab, I am jealous. 0/10 would not recommend it. I still have memories or cleaning the dang pudendal nerve. Hours of time wasted.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: 11 users
So did the question in the title of this post ever actually get answered lol
 
  • Like
  • Hmm
Reactions: 5 users
That's terrifying. I was accepted there and loved the interview but chose a different school. That could be me. Scary
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
So did the question in the title of this post ever actually get answered lol
Administration gave some BS that it’s really hard to separate the stats by campus so they’ll get to it eventually. I’m sure we’ll know more in a couple months
 
  • Care
Reactions: 1 user
So did the question in the title of this post ever actually get answered lol

The only numbers out there are from RVU students who had to SOAP. At least 45 RVU students had to SOAP this year, at least 30 of them from UT. Those are the conservative numbers. This data will never come forward unedited, because RVU uses its various campuses to pad the numbers. If UT does poorly, they will combine with CO numbers and brag that "RVU match rate was over 90%". They have been doing this from the start with grading practices, COCA even had to intervene at one point because of it. UT campus does poorly on identical exams compared to CO? Curve them separately so UT doesn't look bad. UT has an abysmal match rate? Combine it with CO so UT doesn't look bad. They will manipulate the numbers any way they need to.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
As tough as it was to get into DO school this cycle, I'm glad I'm matriculating to a decently established program with happy students. I could've made it easier on my school list by applying to any/all For Profit schools and poorly resourced branch campuses, but I'm glad I held off.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I’m curious what the spread of GPA and MCAT is like at a mid-tier DO school like RVU. Their class of 2023 averages were 3.5 sGPA and 506 MCAT, which is on par with bottom quartile MD schools (like LSU-Shreveport and Mississippi). So the average student at thwse DO schools doesn’t seem noticeably weaker academically, and AFAIK these bottom quartile MD schools don’t have crazy match problems like RVU.

Which makes me wonder, how academically weak is the bottom 25-33% of a class at RVU? Because remember that to not match in DO friendly fields like peds, FM and IM, you have to be beaten out by IMGs with better stats, of which there actually aren’t a lot in those specialities. The IMGs who studied for 1 year and got 250+ on Step 1 aren’t applying to FM 😬
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Also the irony of having your school be called RVU and a third of your graduates maybe having to process insurance claims for the rest of their careers🤡
 
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 user
If completion rate is 82% and match rate is below average around 88%, that equals 72% of students that matriculated successfully matching. I can't find their match rate but their placement is 100% on their outcomes document which effectively obfuscates the reality that you will probably get a job but you may hate it and regret going into medicine.

Every COM gets their scrutiny but BCOM as a for-profit institution with non-student centered motives not even hidden behind "non-profit" status deserves more of it.

72% is unacceptable in my opinion and I wish something was done about outcomes like this. nearly 3 of 10 entering students not making it to becoming a physician? Either the bar for acceptance has been made too low at the program or the program is poorly setup and most likely a combination of both.

Gaining acceptance into med school (<-nicely done mods) has historically been the greatest barrier to entry and programs should do everything they can to support their students once accepted. This phenomenon of milking young naive people with (sometimes unrealistic) aspirations and lots of gov't loans is terrible. It undermines medicine as a profession. So do midlevels, though, and some people on here have suggested that out-proliferating them could help address the way they undermine physician-level care. What a weird time to be in medicine.
Why would you calculate match rate using the matriculating number of students? That makes no sense lol. You’re including students who failed out or left and aren’t even in school anymore and students who failed but maybe had to repeat a year. Meaning they didn’t even apply for the match this year. You should use the number of current 4th years who actually applied. That attrition rate is concerning but you can’t combine it with match rate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Top