Is it true that roughly 1 in 3 students in RVU-Utah's class of 2021 went unmatched this cycle and needed to SOAP/Scramble?

[FootballAndSkiing]

UT campus does poorly on identical exams compared to CO? Curve them separately so UT doesn't look bad. UT has an abysmal match rate? Combine it with CO so UT doesn't look bad. They will manipulate the numbers any way they need to.

It sounds like the first Utah class might have just been subpar academically. It looks like it was seen in pre clinical and now results of that are being published. Im curious if anyone knows the stats for that class? I am a first year at RVU-CO and from what I can tell both campuses seem pretty even. Utah even has a higher GPA, and the same 506 MCAT, which is pretty good for DO schools. We also get the same lectures and resources so Im not sure why it would be so bad, other than having bad rotations at the Utah location.

Also we just got an update that the placement rate is currently 93% for both campuses combined.

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[FootballAndSkiing]

It sounds like the first Utah class might have just been subpar academically. It looks like it was seen in pre clinical and now results of that are being published. Im curious if anyone knows the stats for that class? I am a first year at RVU-CO and from what I can tell both campuses seem pretty even. Utah even has a higher GPA, and the same 506 MCAT, which is pretty good for DO schools. We also get the same lectures and resources so Im not sure why it would be so bad, other than having bad rotations at the Utah location.

Also we just got an update that the placement rate is currently 93% for both campuses combined.

Found it: 27.8/505.2, 3.55 and 3.47 science. It is interesting, these are above average DO students.

 

[DrBatmanOBGYN]

I’m curious what the spread of GPA and MCAT is like at a mid-tier DO school like RVU. Their class of 2023 averages were 3.5 sGPA and 506 MCAT, which is on par with bottom quartile MD schools (like LSU-Shreveport and Mississippi). So the average student at thwse DO schools doesn’t seem noticeably weaker academically, and AFAIK these bottom quartile MD schools don’t have crazy match problems like RVU.

Which makes me wonder, how academically weak is the bottom 25-33% of a class at RVU? Because remember that to not match in DO friendly fields like peds, FM and IM, you have to be beaten out by IMGs with better stats, of which there actually aren’t a lot in those specialities. The IMGs who studied for 1 year and got 250+ on Step 1 aren’t applying to FM 😬

I don't think that academics are the root cause of the problem. Most students around the country are educated via first aid/pathoma/sketchy/anki/etc and only pay the necessary attention to lectures to do well on school exams. I think the root of the issue is facilities and faculty advising. Schools like RVU have no home hospital so they are at the mercy of whatever rotations the school can find them. This puts most of the students with attendings who are not academic physicians and many of them are never around PD's/residents. This does not mean that the experience was poor, just increases the odds that these physicians do not know how to write a LOR for a residency applicant. The faculty advising is also lacking. People are basically told to shoot for the moon and assured they will do fine. There is a distinct lack of pragmatic residency application advising with people who know that field. On the CO campus, one faculty member is in charge of the residency application concerns of all the students. Lastly, there is no research. I made it out of there with 3 publications, never spoke to anyone at the school once about research. They don't even address it.

 

[YCAGA]

I don't think that academics are the root cause of the problem. Most students around the country are educated via first aid/pathoma/sketchy/anki/etc and only pay the necessary attention to lectures to do well on school exams. I think the root of the issue is facilities and faculty advising. Schools like RVU have no home hospital so they are at the mercy of whatever rotations the school can find them. This puts most of the students with attendings who are not academic physicians and many of them are never around PD's/residents. This does not mean that the experience was poor, just increases the odds that these physicians do not know how to write a LOR for a residency applicant. The faculty advising is also lacking. People are basically told to shoot for the moon and assured they will do fine. There is a distinct lack of pragmatic residency application advising with people who know that field. On the CO campus, one faculty member is in charge of the residency application concerns of all the students. Lastly, there is no research. I made it out of there with 3 publications, never spoke to anyone at the school once about research. They don't even address it.

That all makes sense but to be clear, I was not questioning the academics/taught while attending RVU. I was questioning the quality of students they are bringing in. It doesn’t matter if students are all using the same resources like Sketchy if the bottom 1/4 of the class had a 3.2 sGPA and 495 on the MCAT…a.k.a. they don’t have the horsepower for medical school. Not saying that is what is happening, but it’s a possibility.

Looks like in 2017 the average Step 1 score at RVU was 220 or 26th percentile compared to all US and Canadian students. That’s pretty horrible. That means a large chunk of above average RVU students are still below average compared to their MD and DO peers.

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

Looks like in 2017 the average Step 1 score at RVU was 220 or 26th percentile compared to all US and Canadian students.

If the average MD student got a 511 on their MCAT, and mostly MDs take Step 1, then I think this is about what is expected for a school with a 505 average

 

[Cath Up]

Why would you calculate match rate using the matriculating number of students? That makes no sense lol. You’re including students who failed out or left and aren’t even in school anymore and students who failed but maybe had to repeat a year. Meaning they didn’t even apply for the match this year. You should use the number of current 4th years who actually applied. That attrition rate is concerning but you can’t combine it with match rate

It makes complete sense. It tells you "out of the students that started at this school, how many became doctors". I agree the rate that you mention is also important. But the number I quoted speaks to school support, caliber of student, match potential, attrition.

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

It makes complete sense. It tells you "out of the students that started at this school, how many became doctors". I agree the rate that you mention is also important. But the number I quoted speaks to school support, caliber of student, match potential, attrition.

Anyone know where the goalposts are? I think someone moved them.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

It makes complete sense. It tells you "out of the students that started at this school, how many became doctors". I agree the rate that you mention is also important. But the number I quoted speaks to school support, caliber of student, match potential, attrition.

No it doesn't. The attricition rate is a concerning but seerate issue. You cant calculate match rate by including student who didnt even apply and may even still be in school just are third years right now lol.

 

[Cath Up]

Anyone know where the goalposts are? I think someone moved them.

Could you point out the inconsistency in what I've claimed? I don't get what you're talking about.

Nearly 3 in 10 matriculants not becoming doctors is a metric I would find useful as an applicant.

 

[Cath Up]

No it doesn't. The attricition rate is a concerning but seerate issue. You cant calculate match rate by including student who didnt even apply and may even still be in school just are third years right now lol.

I didn't claim to be calculating match rate. The match rate was somewhere around 88%. 72% of matriculants became doctors in 4 years. I guess I could have specified that maybe some take 5 or 6 years so the % of successful matriculants is likely higher. But I don't think there are many DO students that take research years.

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

Could you point out the inconsistency in what I've claimed? I don't get what you're talking about.

Nearly 3 in 10 matriculants not becoming doctors is a metric I would find useful as an applicant.

Nothing inconstant, its just a different metric that is worth noting, but we are talking about matching. Like it feels like if a school does something good or above expectations people go out of their way to make it fit their narrative that these schools are bad. Match rates should be compared to match rates. These numbers tell us different information about the school. Im sure we can find numbers about a lot of schools that look bad.

 

[Wjldenver]

Since SGU bought RVU, RVU seems to be becoming more like their parent organization every day. Oh well, unmatched RVU grads will probably be able to file unmatched harm claims like this in the not too distant future. (Particularly if RVU is able to eventually open a third campus in Montana.)

Rampant DO school expansion dilutes the entire DO school brand in my opinion.

SGU | Victims Justice Group

www.victimsjusticegroup.com

 

[prefontaine]

Since SGU bought RVU, RVU seems to be becoming more like their parent organization every day. Oh well, unmatched RVU grads will probably be able to file unmatched harm claims like this in the not too distant future. (Particularly if RVU is able to eventually open a third campus in Montana.)

Rampant DO school expansion dilutes the entire DO school brand in my opinion.

SGU | Victims Justice Group

www.victimsjusticegroup.com

Medforth Global Healthcare owns SGU and RVU. SGU does not own RVU.

The RVU MT campus is highly unlikely.

 

[YCAGA]

Since SGU bought RVU, RVU seems to be becoming more like their parent organization every day. Oh well, unmatched RVU grads will probably be able to file unmatched harm claims like this in the not too distant future. (Particularly if RVU is able to eventually open a third campus in Montana.)

Rampant DO school expansion dilutes the entire DO school brand in my opinion.

SGU | Victims Justice Group

www.victimsjusticegroup.com

Imagine your school being such a scam that you create a niche in the legal industry. And then 1000 new people every year since up to keep giving you $100,000/yr.

 

[Lem0nz]

I don’t even think it’s useful for surgery. Cadavers are not like working on a living person. And all of you who missed out on in person anatomy lab, I am jealous. 0/10 would not recommend it. I still have memories or cleaning the dang pudendal nerve. Hours of time wasted.

Limited utility for surgeons in my n of 1. I had a lot of relearning of anatomy to do in real life, and the bigger problem was I didn't really know what or why I needed to learn anatomy, or even how, until like halfway through residency. I'm *still* learning anatomy and I'm seven years in now. Cadavers not all that great.

 

[Goro]

Anyone ever ask RVU why they have not published their average Step 1 score since the reported 220 in 2017?
What about 2018, 2019, and 2020?

Not defending them, but my own school doesn't post Step I scores, and I'm not aware that of any DO school that does.

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

 

[DrZoidbergDO]

View attachment 334170

 

[Cath Up]

View attachment 334170

So convenient! They've already conflated match and placement so they don't even have to do it later!

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

So convenient! They've already conflated match and placement so they don't even have to do it later!

Maybe they are separate statements? Makes you think, why are not already finalized, if students matched so well?

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

View attachment 334170

Match = / = Place

 

[Neopolymath]

View attachment 334170

"Placements"

Only snakes say placements...

A placement is not a match but a match is a placement. Square... Rectangle... Elementary school...

Edit: Should have read further. You guys beat me.

 

[Goro]

View attachment 334170

Hmmmmmmmmm....looks like a nerve was touched?

 

[bonecrusher22]

So did the question in the title of this post ever actually get answered lol

I would also like to know...

 

[SLC]

View attachment 334170

TELL US THE FRIGGIN’ MATCH RATE THEN.

They have the info, they had it before matches were even announced. They’re basically admitting that they’re going to try to pass placement rate off as match rate right there.

 

[danielblank313]

To be fair though, if you're a DO student in any of the schools that are city-based and not in the middle of no where, there's pretty much an abundance of MD programs in whatever specialty you're going for with plenty of funding and opportunities. There's no excuse to not get involved in research if that's what you're looking for. But RVU-Utah... maybe not lol

 

[deleted1066189]

Exactly. PCOM, CCOM, NYITCOM etc are fantastic schools and will get you pretty much anywhere an MD can go within reason.

May get downvoted, but CCOM is one of the most expensive med schools in the US, and NYITCOM has had some issues over the years (high attrition, over-expansion with the Arkansas campus). I wouldn't choose either over PCOM

 

[calivianya]

Every naive premed thinks they'll be the next ortho bro or neurosurgeon if they just "work harder than MDs". How do you run a car without oil and gas? This is essentially what you're asking of some DO students who don't have home programs, much (if any) research at their school. (Most MD schools get 30-600m+/year in NIH funding for research, DO schools get zilch). So how exactly does one work harder when not given the tools? A low-tier MD can work harder because they can access to these tools and are even more welcomed at other institutions to do research there and what not. You'll never get a clear answer from the school but you can be honest with yourself.

I wish I’d paid more attention to this when applying. I’m putting my residency stuff together right now and I have six research experiences listed on my CV... and a single case study is my only presentation/publication so far. I’m starting to write BS fluff for the school magazines just to have a few pubs listed, even though I know PDs can see right through that crap.

Literally everything fell through. I’ve had multiple PIs, residents, attendings, etc. ghost me - even when I’ve written the whole dang thing myself with no help. I’m literally sitting on an abstract and a poster that someone ghosted me on and I can’t publish the dang thing by myself. I’m looking to get someone else to let me put their name on it this summer. I mean this crap is ridiculous. And I go to a school that makes a big deal about their giant state of the art clinical research building that’s right next to the health professions building.

If it’s been this hard for me, I can’t imagine what it’s been like for people at schools that don’t brag on their research.

 

[Neopolymath]

I wish I’d paid more attention to this when applying. I’m putting my residency stuff together right now and I have six research experiences listed on my CV... and a single case study is my only presentation/publication so far. I’m starting to write BS fluff for the school magazines just to have a few pubs listed, even though I know PDs can see right through that crap.

Literally everything fell through. I’ve had multiple PIs, residents, attendings, etc. ghost me - even when I’ve written the whole dang thing myself with no help. I’m literally sitting on an abstract and a poster that someone ghosted me on and I can’t publish the dang thing by myself. I’m looking to get someone else to let me put their name on it this summer. I mean this crap is ridiculous. And I go to a school that makes a big deal about their giant state of the art clinical research building that’s right next to the health professions building.

If it’s been this hard for me, I can’t imagine what it’s been like for people at schools that don’t brag on their research.

You really only need 1 thing to check the box and pass the filter. Sure it's better to have more but that is the single biggest jump in value to your app in this area. Try your best but don't sweat it if it doesn't work out. It's infuriating but rads doesn't really care about research at most places.

 

[DNC127]

I wish I’d paid more attention to this when applying. I’m putting my residency stuff together right now and I have six research experiences listed on my CV... and a single case study is my only presentation/publication so far. I’m starting to write BS fluff for the school magazines just to have a few pubs listed, even though I know PDs can see right through that crap.

Literally everything fell through. I’ve had multiple PIs, residents, attendings, etc. ghost me - even when I’ve written the whole dang thing myself with no help. I’m literally sitting on an abstract and a poster that someone ghosted me on and I can’t publish the dang thing by myself. I’m looking to get someone else to let me put their name on it this summer. I mean this crap is ridiculous. And I go to a school that makes a big deal about their giant state of the art clinical research building that’s right next to the health professions building.

If it’s been this hard for me, I can’t imagine what it’s been like for people at schools that don’t brag on their research.

throw my name on it!

 

[mwsapphire]

May get downvoted, but CCOM is one of the most expensive med schools in the US, and NYITCOM has had some issues over the years (high attrition, over-expansion with the Arkansas campus). I wouldn't choose either over PCOM

I've heard things about PCOM, too, like if you fail a class you repeat the year bc there is no remediation ( if we're gonna discuss attrition, we should discuss that.)

NYITCOM's attrition rate as improved a lot in previous years. They used to have really harsh policies but things have changed. I've heard from own classmates, class above me, etc.

 

[mwsapphire]

Exactly. PCOM, CCOM, NYITCOM etc are fantastic schools and will get you pretty much anywhere an MD can go within reason.

The only thing alumni have said is hard to get at our school is clinical research as a pre clinical. I was just in a zoom meeting where I asked about not wanting to do bench research ( Don't enjoy it, also the time commitment is a little heavy for med school, I like to go home during school breaks, etc.).

But I'm aiming for IM/Peds/FM, so volunteering during pre clinical years as well as some case study work during years 3/4 should lift me up. But I mentioned this ( not wanting to do bench) during the zoom with an alumni and he said " Yeah that was the one thing that's tough to get NYITCOM."

Even if I wanted a specialty, I'm more thinking of medicine-based fellowship specialty such as endo. (There are even research opportunities during residency at some programs, and I feel like you would need that to match fellowship anyway, regardless of research in med school.)

 

[Tinyhandz]

I've heard things about PCOM, too, like if you fail a class you repeat the year bc there is no remediation ( if we're gonna discuss attrition, we should discuss that.)

NYITCOM's attrition rate as improved a lot in previous years. They used to have really harsh policies but things have changed. I've heard from own classmates, class above me, etc.

I wonder what the attrition rate will be this year. Every exam for this and least year for NYITCOM, at least 20% of the class fails and gets below 70%. Neuro exam was more like 24%.

 

[mwsapphire]

I wonder what the attrition rate will be this year. Every exam for this and least year for NYITCOM, at least 20% of the class fails and gets below 70%. Neuro exam was more like 24%.

I didn't realize you were in my class! Were you also on the WL last year?

Edit: Keep in mind, exams are averaged. Someone may get below a 70 on one or 2 exams but still scrape by with a passing grade. In general a lot of people will bomb one test but still climb up. We have 4 exams per semester total and allow them to be averaged for this exact reason. Also neuroanatomy is counted with the lecture based exams this year, which means that neuroanatomy gave people boosts to balance out the OMK exam I and exam II scores.

 

[calivianya]

throw my name on it!

You bet I will if I can’t find anyone at my institution to do it lmfao

 

[DNC127]

You bet I will if I can’t find anyone at my institution to do it lmfao

why do you need anyone else?

 

[calivianya]

why do you need anyone else?

I’ve never seen a med student publish something solo without a resident or attending. I was of the impression that wasn’t how things are done. Am I wrong?

 

[DNC127]

I’ve never seen a med student publish something solo without a resident or attending. I was of the impression that wasn’t how things are done. Am I wrong?

I have done it with just a PhD. Usually i would just find residents and slap their name if they helped on it to use them for their credentials

 

[Neopolymath]

You can, I have. I think it’s just a courtesy sometimes to add their name, depending on the impact of the work; I wrote a case report where the attending didn’t even know we were writing and presenting it, but their name was on it because they did the relevant surgery. There was another student in my class who actually got theirs published in a journal somewhere with only their name on it because they were the only one who did any work, and although it still got published they got blacklisted by every residency at our core hospital because they didn’t give any of the physicians who cared for the patient authorship credit. Which was funny because they didn’t even want to go into any fields the hospital offered.

Med student research and academic medicine is such BS. What a bunch of babies.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

I’ve never seen a med student publish something solo without a resident or attending. I was of the impression that wasn’t how things are done. Am I wrong?

Some specialty organization shave magazines that let students solo publish. EMREsident is one example. I know lots of solo med students who have published articles there.

 

[kuzy]

May get downvoted, but CCOM is one of the most expensive med schools in the US, and NYITCOM has had some issues over the years (high attrition, over-expansion with the Arkansas campus). I wouldn't choose either over PCOM

No downvote needed, I'm at CCOM and I wouldn't have gone here if I didn't live with my parents 30 min away The tuition here is insane for absolutely no reason. They always say it's for "our network of rotations" when asked, but that's BS.

I will say all of my rotation sites besides psychiatry are at hospitals with residents (advocate christ, lutheran general, cook county, etc), which is uncommon among DO schools so there's definitely some benefit to that if you're like me and are from the area. Coming here without ties to Chicago and paying the full COA is insane to me though

 

[Dr.Bruh]

No downvote needed, I'm at CCOM and I wouldn't have gone here if I didn't live with my parents 30 min away The tuition here is insane for absolutely no reason. They always say it's for "our network of rotations" when asked, but that's BS.

I will say all of my rotation sites besides psychiatry are at hospitals with residents (advocate christ, lutheran general, cook county, etc), which is uncommon among DO schools so there's definitely some benefit to that if you're like me and are from the area. Coming here without ties to Chicago and paying the full COA is insane to me though

I was gunna say I go to KCU which I one of the more “established” DO schools and from what I’ve heard from my friends at CCOM your rotations are WAYYY more robust than ours lol. Can go a long way in the DO world.

 

[Joseph Beverly Hills]

Keep in mind the ">90% placement rate of graduating seniors" does NOT include unmatched students who decided to defer graduation for a semester or year (in order to reapply via ERAS as a "senior" and not as a "graduate"). These students are not technically considered "graduating seniors" and are thus excluded from the placement rate calculations, even though they are OMS-IV students who didn't match/SOAP. If they were included, the placement rate would be even lower. To be fair, all med schools (both MD and DO granting schools) have been doing this for years (nothing new/extra-ordinary).

Also, the published placement rate includes students who "partially matched" (ie, matched/soaped into TYs/TRIs/Prelim programs without a PGY2 advanced position). Many of the General Surgery (and some IM) matches are prelim matches who will also reapply in the 2021-2022 match.

Can say as a [matched] RVU senior, the low placement rate is very multifactorial and can't be simplified into just the 1 or 2 issues discussed on this thread.

 

[Goro]

Let's say this is the case. Then class of 2022 should theoretically have much higher match rate considering they will have extra students included from the previous year. Unless for some odd reason the same number of OMS-IV keep deferring year after year.

There will always be a pool of student who have trouble matching. Their differentials have been listed previously.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

View attachment 334170

That’s true, you see it was really 34% which we all know isn’t a third....

 

[Doc_Ock]

DO schools are also far more willing to fail people

I have always been told the opposite by countless people from both DO and MD schools

 

[Doc_Ock]

Why do many DO schools have crappy grading systems and garbage admins?

Have spoken with many faculty in the DO world, including those only tangentially involved with COM's and have been around the block in higher ed. Like DO schools as a whole, there are simpler much less stringent requirements for being an admin of a DO school than an MD school.

 

[Doc_Ock]

Yeah we had Osteopathic lab in person since day 1 but completely online anatomy this whole year, with no option to even look at the already dissected cadavers. I’m already disenchanted with the “osteopathic difference”

As someone who left my medical school very late in the game, it's only going to get worse. Get out now.

 

[Joseph Beverly Hills]

Yeah we had Osteopathic lab in person since day 1 but completely online anatomy this whole year, with no option to even look at the already dissected cadavers. I’m already disenchanted with the “osteopathic difference”

Wait until OMS-III when you start your clinical rotations; then you'll really know that the "osteopathic difference" is.

 

[prehealthboi]

View attachment 334170

I've been accepted into RVUCOM-CO and ACOM, and I want to attend RVU, but I just can't look past RVU's recent ownership by Medforth and their association with SGU. They are also trying to open a Montana campus too...who knows, they may even try to funnel SGU students at RVU rotation sites in the future and it may all just become a clusterf***. I understand they are more established and tend to "match well", but I feel like in the future, when it comes time to apply for residencies, these concerns may raise red flags or some PD's when they see graduates from RVU. But again, who knows what will happen down the line. Maybe in the past it would have been okay, but is it smart to invest in this school now when there are already this many concerns arising from the medical community? For these reasons and more, I am still undecided.