Is it true that roughly 1 in 3 students in RVU-Utah's class of 2021 went unmatched this cycle and needed to SOAP/Scramble?

Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
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prehealthboi said:
I've been accepted into RVUCOM-CO and ACOM, and I want to attend RVU, but I just can't look past RVU's recent ownership by Medforth and their association with SGU. They are also trying to open a Montana campus too...who knows, they may even try to funnel SGU students at RVU rotation sites in the future and it may all just become a clusterf***. I understand they are more established and tend to "match well", but I feel like in the future, when it comes time to apply for residencies, these concerns may raise red flags or some PD's when they see graduates from RVU. But again, who knows what will happen down the line. Maybe in the past it would have been okay, but is it smart to invest in this school now when there are already this many concerns arising from the medical community? For these reasons and more, I am still undecided.
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Given RVU's sketchiness and the fact they are for profit, I would go for ACOM if I were you. PM me if you'd like to know where I am at.
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mwsapphire said:
Given RVU's sketchiness and the fact they are for profit, I would go for ACOM if I were you. PM me if you'd like to know where I am at.
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What? RVU campus in Colorado has shown to be a solid school that matches well. Just because a school is “non profit” doesnt mean anything lol all DO schools are basically for profit even if theyre officially “non profit.”
 
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Cranjis McBasketball said:
What? RVU campus in Colorado has shown to be a solid school that matches well. Just because a school is “non profit” doesnt mean anything lol all DO schools are basically for profit even if theyre officially “non profit.”
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RVU was recently bought out by Medforth group...the same group that owns St. George's in the Caribbean. They have sent out emails to students rejected from RVU encouraging them to check out St. George's University as well as offering a spot in their "Why Wait" program. Recently, their UT campus had 1/3 of their students SOAP. All of this is happening, and they are still actively trying to open up a third campus in Montana (that has recently gotten pushback in light of some statements that were made by RVU officials). Yes, many private DO schools are essentially businesses, but perhaps RVU to a higher degree as they are one of the more expensive schools and take less risk on the cost of education being for-profit where the risk and debt falls on the students directly. The concepts are similar to the SGU business model, the only difference is that they legally have to meet COCA and LCME standards to maintain accreditation (i.e. avoiding high attrition rates, etc.) They may match well, but this is ultimately individualized on the student performance on STEP/COMLEX at the end of the day, is it not? Now with both of these going P/F, PD's may pay more attention to where a student graduates from in conjunction to Step 2 scores and other factors. No one knows what will happen in the future, the best thing for a prospective student to do is simply become aware of the kind of institution they are getting themselves into, considering the amount of money that is being invested into the student's education. I am by no means saying it is a "bad" school, but you have to weigh the pros and cons of each school when making a decision. It is the reason I haven't made a decision yet, I am trying to talk to current students at both programs to hopefully push me one way or another.
 
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prehealthboi said:
RVU was recently bought out by Medforth group...the same group that owns St. George's in the Caribbean. They have sent out emails to students rejected from RVU encouraging them to check out St. George's University as well as offering a spot in their "Why Wait" program. Recently, their UT campus had 1/3 of their students SOAP. All of this is happening, and they are still actively trying to open up a third campus in Montana (that has recently gotten pushback in light of some statements that were made by RVU officials). Yes, many private DO schools are essentially businesses, but perhaps RVU to a higher degree as they are one of the more expensive schools and take less risk on the cost of education being for-profit where the risk and debt falls on the students directly. The concepts are similar to the SGU business model, the only difference is that they legally have to meet COCA and LCME standards to maintain accreditation (i.e. avoiding high attrition rates, etc.) They may match well, but this is ultimately individualized on the student performance on STEP/COMLEX at the end of the day, is it not? Now with both of these going P/F, PD's may pay more attention to where a student graduates from in conjunction to Step 2 scores and other factors. No one knows what will happen in the future, the best thing for a prospective student to do is simply become aware of the kind of institution they are getting themselves into, considering the amount of money that is being invested into the student's education. I am by no means saying it is a "bad" school, but you have to weigh the pros and cons of each school when making a decision. It is the reason I haven't made a decision yet, I am trying to talk to current students at both programs to hopefully push me one way or another.
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Current RVU-Co student here and happy to answer any questions you have. I would also add my input to this conversation. In terms of step 1 it didn’t really matter what school you went to since most of the studying was done on your own. You could have gone to medical school on Mars or Antarctica and as long as you had an internet connection you could self prep for that exam. Now RVU helped hold a lot of students hands in that regard since their curriculum centered around step 1. When picking a school in a step 1 p/f world try to make sure that it has programs/residencies that are conducting scholarly activity since that will help a lot during the match. Also keep in mind no matter where you go it’s own you to do all these things. When you start school in only four years you will be an adult and paying taxes (if you haven’t done so already). If you have any questions feel free to DM me.
 
prehealthboi said:
RVU was recently bought out by Medforth group...the same group that owns St. George's in the Caribbean. They have sent out emails to students rejected from RVU encouraging them to check out St. George's University as well as offering a spot in their "Why Wait" program. Recently, their UT campus had 1/3 of their students SOAP. All of this is happening, and they are still actively trying to open up a third campus in Montana (that has recently gotten pushback in light of some statements that were made by RVU officials). Yes, many private DO schools are essentially businesses, but perhaps RVU to a higher degree as they are one of the more expensive schools and take less risk on the cost of education being for-profit where the risk and debt falls on the students directly. The concepts are similar to the SGU business model, the only difference is that they legally have to meet COCA and LCME standards to maintain accreditation (i.e. avoiding high attrition rates, etc.) They may match well, but this is ultimately individualized on the student performance on STEP/COMLEX at the end of the day, is it not? Now with both of these going P/F, PD's may pay more attention to where a student graduates from in conjunction to Step 2 scores and other factors. No one knows what will happen in the future, the best thing for a prospective student to do is simply become aware of the kind of institution they are getting themselves into, considering the amount of money that is being invested into the student's education. I am by no means saying it is a "bad" school, but you have to weigh the pros and cons of each school when making a decision. It is the reason I haven't made a decision yet, I am trying to talk to current students at both programs to hopefully push me one way or another.
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Why do they have to meet LCME standards? They are a DO school.
 
Trippin Tryptophan said:
They got declined.

www.kulr8.com

Billings Chamber releases statement on Billings Clinic's withdrawal from medical school development discussions

BILLINGS - In a statement released Wednesday, Billings Clinic said they will no longer continue conversations with Medforth Global Healthcare Education related to the opening of a medical school in
www.kulr8.com www.kulr8.com
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I know I'm a little late to the party, but... Pretty sure they said they're still gonna do everything they can to build this school, even if Billings Clinic said they won't participate. These are for profit schools that don't care if health systems want to help their students or not. There's also a DO school proposed for Great Falls. Can personally verify that there is not room for a 200 student class in Great Falls (obviously they plan to send their students other places to rotate). The mermaid bar would sure be great for med student hangouts though.
 
Joseph Beverly Hills said:
Oh sweety..... it's actually the other way around .... I'm sure in the coming 3 years, once Noorda's inaugural class starts clinical rotations, RVU students will funnel into SGU rotation sites in NYC, Miami, etc..
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plz help me make a decision....can I PM you
 
JimmyPage1969 said:
choose ACOM unless you care about the mandatory attendance
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Mandatory attendance is a much bigger deal than a school sending sketchy emails, not even in the same ballpark. Mandatory attendance will break you if you don’t learn via lecture. I don’t attend ANY lectures at RVU. I would have to drop out at ACOM
 
Cornfed101 said:
Mandatory attendance is a much bigger deal than a school sending sketchy emails, not even in the same ballpark. Mandatory attendance will break you if you don’t learn via lecture. I don’t attend ANY lectures at RVU. I would have to drop out at ACOM
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Yea my school had this 80% attendance policy thankfully only like 1-2 classes each year even followed/enforced the policy. How strict is it at ACOM?
 
FutureDoctor5000 said:
Yea my school had this 80% attendance policy thankfully only like 1-2 classes each year even followed/enforced the policy. How strict is it at ACOM?
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No one knows what acoms attendance policy will be post covid. Rn it's basically completely voluntary to attend lectures.
 
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Dr. Pepper DO said:
Can you explain RVU's sketchiness?
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this is outright disgusting behavior:

forums.studentdoctor.net

No matter what RVU tells you, don’t apply Caribbean

With all due respect to those attending and applying to RVU, because it has a solid track record academically, I believe it’s unethical for the school to give leads to Caribbean programs. Though St George seems to be one of the better ones, there are still high attrition rates making it a risky...
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net
 
Goro said:
this is outright disgusting behavior:

forums.studentdoctor.net

No matter what RVU tells you, don’t apply Caribbean

With all due respect to those attending and applying to RVU, because it has a solid track record academically, I believe it’s unethical for the school to give leads to Caribbean programs. Though St George seems to be one of the better ones, there are still high attrition rates making it a risky...
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net
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I genuinely don't understand the outrage about this. Its an advertisement, ignore it and move on. Its applicants responsibility to filter out all the BS all of these schools throw at you and make an informed decision on your own.

How is it different than schools telling you to apply to their master's program after denying you?
 
Dr. Pepper DO said:
I genuinely don't understand the outrage about this. Its an advertisement, ignore it and move on. Its applicants responsibility to filter out all the BS all of these schools throw at you and make an informed decision on your own.

How is it different than schools telling you to apply to their master's program after denying you?
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The SMPs can give you a reasonable chance at getting into med school, and don't leave you 300K in debt. You don't seem to understand that the Carib schools are educational predators.
 
Eh, I remember LECOM calling me to tell me to apply to the biomedical ethics program. And other schools advertise their MPH. If you want to be a doctor these will not help. The the school got your info from your DO app and is sending you that info anyway

Also, I would be curious (just thinking out loud), and Im not using this argument to make my point, What percent of SGU grads successfully became doctors vs masters students --> successful doctors. I would think there is a lot of attrition for both. Also, the extra debt from the masters probably makes cost fairly even.
 
Dr. Pepper DO said:
Eh, I remember LECOM calling me to tell me to apply to the biomedical ethics program. And other schools advertise their MPH. If you want to be a doctor these will not help. The the school got your info from your DO app and is sending you that info anyway

Also, I would be curious (just thinking out loud), and Im not using this argument to make my point, What percent of SGU grads successfully became doctors vs masters students --> successful doctors. I would think there is a lot of attrition for both. Also, the extra debt from the masters probably makes cost fairly even.
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They don’t accept ~1000 students a year and have half of them fail to graduate
 
kuzy said:
They don’t accept ~1000 students a year and have half of them fail to graduate
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Im pretty sure that number is way high, But even if its true, the masters program I was in (at a top DO school) accepted about half the initial class, after two years. So kinda the same thing, they also have to finish med school (+2 years of debt), which people wrongly seem to assume is 100%.

My only point here is that Masters programs, which seem to be acceptable, are also predatory, and they also advertise through their DO program. Not saying they shouldnt exist, I did one, and now im in med school. I do think they are comparable
 
Dr. Pepper DO said:
Im pretty sure that number is way high, But even if its true, the masters program I was in (at a top DO school) accepted about half the initial class, after two years. So kinda the same thing, they also have to finish med school (+2 years of debt), which people wrongly seem to assume is 100%.

My only point here is that Masters programs, which seem to be acceptable, are also predatory, and they also advertise through their DO program. Not saying they shouldnt exist, I did one, and now im in med school. I do think they are comparable
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It's not, from St. George's University Current, Honest Advice:
Chondroclast said:
The Big Class: This is the main lecture style that most students start with, at least the start of term 1. You go to a huge lecture hall for 2 hours of lecture a day. If you are in the August starting class, you'll have around 600-800 students in your lecture (broken up into 2 sections), so about 1200-1500 in your total starting class I believe. if you are in the January starting class you will have around 500-600 students in your lecture. You go to lecture 2 hours a day (it used to be 4 hours a day, but they changed things up, thankfully). They have clicker questions each lecture and this is how you get your attendance points. You have to go to at least 80% of lectures each term, otherwise they can fail you. All of these lectures are recorded live to view later, and for ITI students to view for their lectures (see below).
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The largest SMPs have around 150 students and the important point is that enrolling in one is known to be a roll of the dice as an audition for medical school, oftentimes with clear requirements needed for linkage or guaranteeing an interview. Caribbean schools prey on gullible pre-meds around the country and accept thousands of unqualified applicants each year, knowing that half will fail out and of those that are able to graduate, only about half of them will actually match (61 percent of US IMGs matched in 2020)
 
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Dr. Pepper DO said:
Eh, I remember LECOM calling me to tell me to apply to the biomedical ethics program. And other schools advertise their MPH. If you want to be a doctor these will not help. The the school got your info from your DO app and is sending you that info anyway

Also, I would be curious (just thinking out loud), and Im not using this argument to make my point, What percent of SGU grads successfully became doctors vs masters students --> successful doctors. I would think there is a lot of attrition for both. Also, the extra debt from the masters probably makes cost fairly even.
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No bc SGu grads go through all 4 years and fail to match, or fail boards once and get kicked out after already paying for two years of med school. Which generally will cost more than a 1 year masters. And the masters can be applies to other things, the SGU degree is tough to apply to a job that will let you pay back 300k debt.
 
Dr. Pepper DO said:
Im pretty sure that number is way high, But even if its true, the masters program I was in (at a top DO school) accepted about half the initial class, after two years. So kinda the same thing, they also have to finish med school (+2 years of debt), which people wrongly seem to assume is 100%.

My only point here is that Masters programs, which seem to be acceptable, are also predatory, and they also advertise through their DO program. Not saying they shouldnt exist, I did one, and now im in med school. I do think they are comparable
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How is that comparable? You do a one year masters, do well/decent/meet the requirements and get accepted to a DO or MD school, after that you have a 99% chance(or something along those lines) of having a job after graduating vs going to the Caribbean which is like less than a 50% overall chance of graduating and landing a job. The attrition at most DO and MD schools is nowhere close to that. Most MD/DO schools have around a 85% 4 year graduation rate, there may be some DO schools who maybe lower but overall nowhere close to Ross or SGU, also at least at my school every graduate was placed into/offered a residency position, I am willing to bet the PLACEMENT rate of Caribbean schools of their GRADUATES(after all the massive attrition) is nowhere close to 99%
 
...Everyone proceeds to explain the best outcome for masters programs, and the worst out come for Caribbean. You bet on yourself for both. If you you lose the bet, you are in a lot of debt with nothing to show for it for both.

kuzy said:
Caribbean schools prey on gullible pre-meds around the country and accept hundreds of unqualified applicants each year, knowing that half will fail out
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This also describes some masters programs. The idea that you dont have gullible pre meds at these masters programs is BS. People see "guaranteed acceptance (or interview)" and flock towards them. I also think most people know they will have an uphill battle when they decide to go to the Caribbean.
FutureDoctor5000 said:
How is that comparable? You do a one year masters, do well/decent/meet the requirements and get accepted to a DO or MD school, after that you have a 99% chance(
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"after successfully completing something that has a 50% chance of success, and then go on to something with a 100% of success"... you will be successful 50% of the time

You guys are missing my point that a lot get weeded out by Masters programs with nothing to show for it. This is exactly how then are supposed to work. But they too accept sub par candidates that wont eventually become doctors.
 
Dr. Pepper DO said:
...Everyone proceeds to explain the best outcome for masters programs, and the worst out come for Caribbean. You bet on yourself for both. If you you lose the bet, you are in a lot of debt with nothing to show for it for both.


This also describes some masters programs. The idea that you dont have gullible pre meds at these masters programs is BS. People see "guaranteed acceptance (or interview)" and flock towards them. I also think most people know they will have an uphill battle when they decide to go to the Caribbean.

"after successfully completing something that has a 50% chance of success, and then go on to something with a 100% of success"... you will be successful 50% of the time

You guys are missing my point that a lot get weeded out by Masters programs with nothing to show for it. This is exactly how then are supposed to work. But they too accept sub par candidates that wont eventually become doctors.
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You lost all credibility when you compare a 1 year SMP to the cost of like couple or more years of MEDICAL school lol, if you don’t do well in the SMP, you can cut your losses, also some SMP’s can be used to get into other professional programs such as dental, PA, pharmacy etc...
 
The point im trying to make which you guys have completely lost, is that both Caribbean med schools and masters programs are predatory and designed to make the school money. Nobody can convince me otherwise. For this reason I see people on this website only recommend SMPs as a last resort bet on yourself. I am not saying they are the same, but I think it is fair to compare RVU telling people to apply to SGU and DO schools telling you to apply to their masters, MPH, PA program etc. At the end of the day its up to the applicant to make an informed decision.
 
Dr. Pepper DO said:
The point im trying to make which you guys have completely lost, is that both Caribbean med schools and masters programs are predatory and designed to make the school money. Nobody can convince me otherwise. For this reason I see people on this website only recommend SMPs as a last resort bet on yourself. I am not saying they are the same, but I think it is fair to compare RVU telling people to apply to SGU and DO schools telling you to apply to their masters, MPH, PA program etc. At the end of the day its up to the applicant to make an informed decision.
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Clearly they're both predatory. But an 80k 1-year bet on yourself is less than a 300k 4-year bet on yourself. Fair to draw a line somewhere between those.
 
Cath Up said:
Clearly they're both predatory. But an 80k 1-year bet on yourself is less than a 300k 4-year bet on yourself. Fair to draw a line somewhere between those.
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There are SMP’s that cost 80k I thought it’s less than that
 
Cath Up said:
Clearly they're both predatory. But an 80k 1-year bet on yourself is less than a 300k 4-year bet on yourself. Fair to draw a line somewhere between those.
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I will concede that point, if that person doesnt end up practicing medicine. Just curious, does anyone know how many people graduate and literally cant find at least an FM residency position, no matter how many times they applied and how many programs they applied to. It cant be that many, can it? I just assume that the people that cant get a position are just shooting too high.
 
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Dr. Pepper DO said:
...Everyone proceeds to explain the best outcome for masters programs, and the worst out come for Caribbean. You bet on yourself for both. If you you lose the bet, you are in a lot of debt with nothing to show for it for both.


This also describes some masters programs. The idea that you dont have gullible pre meds at these masters programs is BS. People see "guaranteed acceptance (or interview)" and flock towards them. I also think most people know they will have an uphill battle when they decide to go to the Caribbean.

"after successfully completing something that has a 50% chance of success, and then go on to something with a 100% of success"... you will be successful 50% of the time

You guys are missing my point that a lot get weeded out by Masters programs with nothing to show for it. This is exactly how then are supposed to work. But they too accept sub par candidates that wont eventually become doctors.
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If you don’t see the difference between a 4+ year, 300k roll of the dice where half of the 1000 students that enter are able to graduate and a 1 year, 50-80k roll of the dice that is connected to US medical school then I don't know what to tell you. Even if you beat the odds and succeed in a Caribbean school, you still only have a 61% chance of matching. If you succeed at an SMP, congrats you'll get to go to a US medical school and have over a 90% chance of matching. That is a massive difference, and the only one missing the point here is you. Someone I knew in undergrad went to a Caribbean school 5 years ago and is working as a COVID contact tracer right now because he didn't match the first time and couldn't find anything else to do until he applies again. He is ****ed and I'm sure he'd give anything to go back 5 years to try his luck in an SMP instead.
 
danielblank313 said:
To be fair though, if you're a DO student in any of the schools that are city-based and not in the middle of no where, there's pretty much an abundance of MD programs in whatever specialty you're going for with plenty of funding and opportunities. There's no excuse to not get involved in research if that's what you're looking for. But RVU-Utah... maybe not lol
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Very possible sketchiness aside, I just wanted to reiterate this point.

Being a DO grad from LECOM which has a bad rep on SDN but good rep with PDs in PA, OH, NY, FL... you’ll match somewhere. Maybe not fancy ACGME derm, but somewhere. On the other hand, there’s just not that many total programs in Utah/Colorado, and University of Utah and University of Colorado are famously DO-unfriendly, so even with ideal levels of support, the odds wouldn’t be in their favor.

(LECOM used for example due to personal experience... I’m sure you could substitute PCOM, CCOM, KCOM etc for similar examples)
 
ortnakas said:
Very possible sketchiness aside, I just wanted to reiterate this point.

Being a DO grad from LECOM which has a bad rep on SDN but good rep with PDs in PA, OH, NY, FL... you’ll match somewhere. Maybe not fancy ACGME derm, but somewhere. On the other hand, there’s just not that many total programs in Utah/Colorado, and University of Utah and University of Colorado are famously DO-unfriendly, so even with ideal levels of support, the odds wouldn’t be in their favor.

(LECOM used for example due to personal experience... I’m sure you could substitute PCOM, CCOM, KCOM etc for similar examples)
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ironically RVU had 5 derm matches this year haha
 
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