Is it typical to have preceptors in M3 and M4 who are NPs and PAs at your school?

[Runnergirl24]

Concerned that my future medical school uses NPs and PAs to precept OB rotation and wanted to see if it was the norm amongst all MD schools. Thanks!

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[Goro]

Typical? No

Does it happen? Yes.

Are you a professional who is prepared to learn from your peers? Yes.

 

[Redpancreas]

Concerned that my future medical school uses NPs and PAs to precept OB rotation and wanted to see if it was the norm amongst all MD schools. Thanks!

No it is not. I had one preceptor who was an NP/PA who I was supposed to work under during my Peds ED shift and I did not appreciate it. If it is just limited to OB (and I imagine a specific part of OB/GYN, because there's L&D, GYN/Onc, GYN, Urogyn all of which you'll rotate through) then I would not even worry about this and frankly wouldn't make a fuss about it. If NP/PA supervision across multiple fields (IM/OB/Psych) seems to be the case, that is probably an LCME violation of some sort and I would be concerned.

 

[Gilakend]

I didn't personally, but on my OB rotation, there were NPs who med students could be assigned to. They functioned at a higher level than the residents, graded way easier, and were generally much more personable/normal. I would've been more than happy to be placed with one.

 

[calivianya]

I ended up with a NP during my first week of my OB rotation because my preceptor was out on vacation. It was a much more enjoyable experience than working with my MD preceptor.

It’s nice to be able to learn things without being intimidated to death. I would have happily done my entire OB rotation with her.

 

[stickgirl390]

On family med I worked with PAs/NPs a couple times. I worked with nurse midwives on OB a couple times. This was supplemented by plenty of MD/DO experience as well.

 

[ortnakas]

I had one rotation in med school a few days a week were with an NP, but that’s 1/24 rotations. Definitely not the norm.

 

[aprilfools]

Typical? No

Does it happen? Yes.

Are you a professional who is prepared to learn from your peers? Yes.

I mean sure, but this is totally inappropriate. If you are in school to be a doctor, you should be being trained by doctors.

NPs and PAs do not play the same role as a physician. They did not go to the same type of school as physicians and as a rule do not know how to educate physicians.

Also. They are not the student's "peers." The student is a medical student, they are not.

When you graduate, they will still not be your, "peers." They are all part of the healthcare team, but have different roles.


And finally, there is a massive difference between taking a pearl of wisdom from a midlevel and having an entire preceptor experience be under a midlevel.




That being said, I also had 2 days under a midlevel on OB. It was only two days though.

 

[DOPA-C]

I mean sure, but this is totally inappropriate. If you are in school to be a doctor, you should be being trained by doctors.

NPs and PAs do not play the same role as a physician. They did not go to the same type of school as physicians and as a rule do not know how to educate physicians.

Also. They are not the student's "peers." The student is a medical student, they are not.

When you graduate, they will still not be your, "peers." They are all part of the healthcare team, but have different roles.


And finally, there is a massive difference between taking a pearl of wisdom from a midlevel and having an entire preceptor experience be under a midlevel.

I mean sure, but this is totally inappropriate. If you are in school to be a doctor, you should be being trained by doctors.

NPs and PAs do not play the same role as a physician. They did not go to the same type of school as physicians and as a rule do not know how to educate physicians.

Also. They are not the student's "peers." The student is a medical student, they are not.

When you graduate, they will still not be your, "peers." They are all part of the healthcare team, but have different roles.


And finally, there is a massive difference between taking a pearl of wisdom from a midlevel and having an entire preceptor experience be under a midlevel.




That being said, I also had 2 days under a midlevel on OB. It was only two days though

I mean sure, but this is totally inappropriate. If you are in school to be a doctor, you should be being trained by doctors.

NPs and PAs do not play the same role as a physician. They did not go to the same type of school as physicians and as a rule do not know how to educate physicians.

Also. They are not the student's "peers." The student is a medical student, they are not.

When you graduate, they will still not be your, "peers." They are all part of the healthcare team, but have different roles.


And finally, there is a massive difference between taking a pearl of wisdom from a midlevel and having an entire preceptor experience be under a midlevel.




That being said, I also had 2 days under a midlevel on OB. It was only two days though.

^^Exactly this. It's amazing the hoops people jump through to normalize this. NP/PA's are not your peers. I agree that med students should be open to learning from every member of the healthcare team, but an entire rotation precepted by a midlevel is completely inappropriate and makes no sense. It is frustrating that this kind of thing is even acceptable. As a PA who returned to medical school to become a physician, I expect to be trained by other physicians and not my actual peers.

 

[Goro]

I mean sure, but this is totally inappropriate. If you are in school to be a doctor, you should be being trained by doctors.

NPs and PAs do not play the same role as a physician. They did not go to the same type of school as physicians and as a rule do not know how to educate physicians.

Also. They are not the student's "peers." The student is a medical student, they are not.

When you graduate, they will still not be your, "peers." They are all part of the healthcare team, but have different roles.


And finally, there is a massive difference between taking a pearl of wisdom from a midlevel and having an entire preceptor experience be under a midlevel.




That being said, I also had 2 days under a midlevel on OB. It was only two days though.

Spare us the outrage.
Medicine is a team sport nowadays.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Spare us the outrage.
Medicine is a team sport nowadays.

I’m gonna have to disagree here. We pay tens of thousands every year to be taught by physicians. A couple of days with a midlevel on a rotation? Fine. As a main preceptor? Hell naw.

You’re right that medicine is a team sport nowadays, and every effective team needs a leader. We’re here to learn to be those leaders, so while it’s great to learn what the others do, the doc is what we should be focused on.

 

[Natremia]

Spare us the outrage.
Medicine is a team sport nowadays.

You’re totally clueless

The team doesn’t do my history, the team doesn’t do my physical, the team doesn’t come up with my labs or imaging or diagnosis or med choice

I mean you are quite literally clueless of what actual clinical medicine is like. The only part of the team that affects any of the above are bedside nurses and *occasionally* pharmacists and even with them I’m asking for clarification of what I as the damn physician want to do

 

[Dave1980]

Are you a professional who is prepared to learn from your peers? Yes.

Sounds like that is to be determined.

Pre-med wondering if an NP/PA has anything useful to teach them...lol

 

[7331poas]

Spare us the outrage.
Medicine is a team sport nowadays.

Is that based on your countless hours in the clinical environment Goro?

Give us a break.

 

[Runnergirl24]

Sounds like that is to be determined.

Pre-med wondering if an NP/PA has anything useful to teach them...lol

I literally just wanted to know if it was normal. I wasn't bashing NPs or PAs....I obviously haven't started medical school and therefore do not know what to expect from my future school. I was under the assumption that I would be taught by physicians, now I know otherwise.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I’m gonna have to disagree here. We pay tens of thousands every year to be taught by physicians. A couple of days with a midlevel on a rotation? Fine. As a main preceptor? Hell naw.

In between all of the outrage, I think this is the best way to look at things. Sure, there is plenty that one can learn from an NP/PA, and if you spend a few days on a few rotations you're going to be fine. Hell as a fellow I learned things from our NP/PAs all the time because they had more experience than me. But if you're constantly having them as your sole preceptors, then you're going to learn what they know, and that is insufficient to be a fully-functioning physician.

So to answer the OP's question, I think the context matters. OB in particular is probably a rotation where you can learn reasonably well from an NP/PA. If the remainder of your rotations are going to be primarily precepted by physicians, you're probably fine.

 

[Chads2]

I was under the assumption that I would be taught by physicians, now I know otherwise.

Time to focus back on your question OP, rather than the flame wars that so easily dominate message boards.

Your primary clinical faculty should and will be physicians because you are training to be one. But there will be others involved in your vast education. I’ve learned more about ventilators from an RT than any physician...but I’ve learned more about PULMONOLOGY from the physician.

As a medical student, absorb what you can from those around you with knowledge and experience. But learn how to be a physician from a physician. And not even all of them are great teachers either.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Spare us the outrage.
Medicine is a team sport nowadays.

That’s not a good argument. Medicine is a team sport. Should I be precepted by LPNs? ED techs? They are crucial parts of the team.

It is one thing to learn from midlevels and nurses. On my ENT rotation right now, I learned how to do a flexible nasopharyngoscopy from the PA. She was a good teacher and I learned how to do it well. But I should be learning from the physicians how to take that imaging and incorporate it into forming a ddx and plan. That’s what physicians do, and midlevels don’t typically have the necessary level of education to adequately precept and teach med students.

In my experience, as a third year med student, I have known more medicine than the midlevels. I shouldn’t be taught how to doctor by someone with less education than me. That doesn’t mean I can’t learn from them. I can learn from everyone.

 

[Lem0nz]

You can and should learn from everyone as a medical student. The amount of **** you don't know is so incredibly vast it is not necessary to come in with prejudice. It will be further augmented in residency and you should take the first year there, at least, to also learn from everyone. The LPNs and ED techs can teach you more about getting **** done as an intern than your attending who hasn't put in orders himself circa the dinosaurs roaming the Earth.

You will be primarily taught by physicians. In both medical school and in residency. You will also be taught by RTs, charge nurses, and the janitor staff when you get lost in the basement. Too many future doctors and doctors in training build up prejudice before they've even met people to make determinations of their ability to teach.

My advice is to stop worrying about the letters after someone's name who's teaching you (if there are any at all) and evaluate what they're teaching you and where they got that information from. If a PA is teaching you about ventilators and then points you to five articles from pubmed written by MDs that he learned from that are overviews of conventional ventilation updated for 2020, yes. You should learn from him. If he throws his hands up in the air and says "this is how I've always done it" - no, you should not learn from him. Quite frankly and seriously, you should evaluate your attendings that way too. Far too much of medicine is taught 'because this is how I've always done it'. You will have good teachers and bad teachers. Your physician teachers are far more likely to be good teachers that give you evidence based reasoning and education because of how we are taught. But it is not a monopoly owned by doctors. And on the flip side of the coin, you will get attendings who just show up and say "do this because I said and this is how's its always been done and it works" and you should be appropriately skeptical. In this example, I'd rather be precepted by the PA for a week who's digging through papers with me and telling me how and why it was taught to them than an attending who sat down for ten minutes for rounds and said "I want this and this and this, put in the orders, I have a meeting and then I'll be in the office go follow a resident". I have had that happen. It blows.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Totally trash.

I think learning some procedures or something from a midlevel is totally fine.

I also think if it’s specific stuff, getting your feet wet with the midlevel might even make sense. Like OB for example. Let’s be honest, besides the pertinent physiology and some certain pathology, do any of us really know anything about OB before the rotation? If you’re not going into OB, your OB-specific knowledge will likely not exceed theirs by step2 time. And while they seem to know absolutely nothing outside of a narrow realm of their specific field, I don’t see the harm in learning the ropes from a midwife for the first few days.

 

[Redpancreas]

You can and should learn from everyone as a medical student. The amount of **** you don't know is so incredibly vast it is not necessary to come in with prejudice. It will be further augmented in residency and you should take the first year there, at least, to also learn from everyone. The LPNs and ED techs can teach you more about getting **** done as an intern than your attending who hasn't put in orders himself circa the dinosaurs roaming the Earth.

My advice is to stop worrying about the letters after someone's name who's teaching you (if there are any at all) and evaluate what they're teaching you and where they got that information from. If a PA is teaching you about ventilators and then points you to five articles from pubmed written by MDs that he learned from that are overviews of conventional ventilation updated for 2020, yes. You should learn from him. If he throws his hands up in the air and says "this is how I've always done it" - no, you should not learn from him. Quite frankly and seriously, you should evaluate your attendings that way too. Far too much of medicine is taught 'because this is how I

Starting to sound like a broken record with my praise for Lem0nz's posts, but this is just so well articulated. This is the exact problem I have the with people starting anti-midlevel discussions here and on Reddit. Yes, you should NOT be taught primarily or even consistently by midlevels but it's stupid whenever someone (typically a med student) sees one NP/PA in a teaching role for medical students and is like ZOMG MIDLEVELS!!! and then comes on here to ask about it and cue the endless debates about midlevel encroachment/etc. Why are we criticizing the very people who can actually low key teach us practical skills? I learnt how to place a peripheral line by having a straight up RN patiently teach me at the bedside and suddenly I was doing it daily while my peers who thought there would be a moment where an attending would teach them did not end up learning the skill. I learnt how to actually adjust the ventilators from the ICU RT. I learnt how to organize my Epic lists by sitting down with a PA for an hour. The list goes on. For those reading, know that NPs/PAs have mastered very specific skills and if you need to learn that skill (especially if it's a procedure or something they're willing to give you an evidence based explanation for) it's OK to learn it from them.

 

[NicMouse64]

For the most part at my school, no.

 

[Mad Jack]

Concerned that my future medical school uses NPs and PAs to precept OB rotation and wanted to see if it was the norm amongst all MD schools. Thanks!

I've had them as sort of augmenting preceptors on a rotation back when I was a med student. We would work with them to pre-round on surgery before the attending showed up as well as with them post-op to care for patients after the attendings left for the day. OR time it would be the three of us on all cases.

 

[Jack Donaghy]

Spare us the outrage.
Medicine is a team sport nowadays.

Spoken like a true admin.

 

[Redpancreas]

Absolutely not. The closest I came was during third year when I split the list to preround on a surgical subspecialty and IM.

The truth is though, the quality of teaching you’re going to experience during third year varies widely no matter where you are. I had rotations where I’d be taught something after every patient, others where I’d stay at the hospital and followup on labs and staff questions while the attending did outpatient clinic, to pure shadowing vs managing my own patients and the attending just watched. Most of your learning is more about how to function in the hospital with different team dynamics, and you’re going to be studying for the medical knowledge.

If you have NPPs teaching you, just smile and nod, because more likely than not they’re wrong; The one I worked with on IM thought that Lasix improved GFR because it makes you pee more.

After the rotation is done, report that you were not being taught by physicians as high up the ladder as you feel comfortable doing, allegedly something something ACGME violation but I never looked into the truth of it.

How is this close to being precepted by a midlevel? You were an M3 who split patients with a PA/Midlevel. They're not supervising you. Residents/Hospitalists/Surgeons split lists with midlevels on services (with the attending's obviously signing off on the NPs decisions). Regarding the GFR thing, NPs should not be teaching you pathophysiology and medical management but if you're paired with one try to learn their workflow because they've been doing what they're doing for years and what they lack several in common medical sense, they make up with workflow tips they've learnt over the years. Take advantage of it.

 

[Ganon]

Spare us the outrage.
Medicine is a team sport nowadays.

Guess since I’m a nurse I could take over your job as well, then?
After all, it isn’t often scientists who teach in NP schools, it’s typically other nurses.

Or does this acceptance of nurses formally precepting doctors only matter in the clinical realm? You know... the one that we are all training for...

If nursing education is sufficient for medical school, I’ll replace the faculty at my school and accept their salary in the form of getting free tuition... hmmm... hold on, I have a few e-mails to write. About to become an Allnursesdotcom celebrity

 

[Jack Donaghy]

I worked with some midwives during OB and boy were they the worst. Pimped me on literally everything clinical that they knew. It was clear that they were trying to prove some sort of point.

Conversely, I worked with a PA on sports med and he was awesome. Really sat down to teach and we would often learn together when I asked a question that he wasn't 100% on.

So I guess, like everything in 3rd year, YMMV.

 

[Redpancreas]

I worked with some midwives during OB and boy were they the worst. Pimped me on literally everything clinical that they knew. It was clear that they were trying to prove some sort of point.

Conversely, I worked with a PA on sports med and he was awesome. Really sat down to teach and we would often learn together when I asked a question that he wasn't 100% on.

So I guess, like everything in 3rd year, YMMV.

I suspect this is the issue. Both groups are aligned in a position to dislike the other. Licensed PAs are typically the same age as medical students and assume more clinical care responsibility because they are licensed to assist physicians. Medical students are the WTF I just took exams you couldn't pass and know more about medicine and see it as a Duning-Kruger effect. I'm going to laugh at your heuristics and tell everyone on SDN what you said to prove how stupid midlevels are. Meanwhile the PAs are like, damn, medical students think they're hot **** because they're going to be doctors but don't even know what I learnt on the first day of my clinicals. Both sides are obviously being immature. Seen it too much on these forums.

 

[DOFOSHO]

you can learn how to be a PA/NP from a PA/NP. But becoming a doctor requires learning how to narrow a differential diagnosis starting from the chief complaint, ordering RELEVANT labs and imaging and synthesizing that data with focused history and physical examination to arrive at a diagnosis and provide appropriate therapy and/or guidance. This is what doctors do*.

*: most doctors have no idea how to order labs or take a history and physical. The NP/PA does all this and then the doctor may or may not use this info to make a diagnosis, emphasis on may.

 

[Goro]

Spoken like a true admin.

Admin??? I'm no f'ing Admin. I work for a living! I teach medical students!

Given that this is SDN, I should have expected the complaining, the wailing and gnashing of teeth, the bitterness, and, of course, the elitism.

We now return you to your usual SDN dumpster fire.

 

[Lawpy]

I think the issue is conflating between precepting and teaching. A midlevel supervising a med student is a bad thing and should be condemned. A midlevel teaching a med student useful skills is a good thing

 

[Chads2]

Concerned that my future medical school uses NPs and PAs to precept OB rotation and wanted to see if it was the norm amongst all MD schools. Thanks!

So hey, uhm, everyone.

This incoming medical student presented a concern about her school. Never once did she indicate she had nothing to learn from a PA or NP, nor did she bash any PA/NP.

Maybe she wants to know where her money is going. She wanted to know if this is “the norm” with all medical schools and rotations or if this is something that is specific to her school. You’d want to know what you’re getting into, right? You’d want to know if your school uses a real cadaver lab, if the curriculum is problem-based, if the lectures are online, etc. As a not-yet-MS1, she literally has no idea what “the norm” is. And where do we go for our student doctoring questions? A website by that name, right?

OP, med schools will be (like everything else in your world from now on) on a bell curve. There’s the middle, which is how “things are done at most places,” and then there are both tails that deviate from the median.

Just like another responder, the key is that you said they have “NPs and PAs to precept OB rotation” and to answer your question, it is not the norm. Could they precept your gyne exam, your paps, your Doppler, sure. They may even precept your entire day. But precepting your entire rotation is not the norm at most schools.

Perhaps also, though, that maybe it’s not the norm at your school either. Find out from the classes ahead of you what the OB rotation is really like...especially if you want to do OB.

 

[Chads2]

The truth is though, the quality of teaching you’re going to experience during third year varies widely no matter where you are.

Well yes...not all teaching attendings can be me.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Admin??? I'm no f'ing Admin. I work for a living! I teach medical students!

Given that this is SDN, I should have expected the complaining, the wailing and gnashing of teeth, the bitterness, and, of course, the elitism.

We now return you to your usual SDN dumpster fire.

I think when tuition is as high as 70k it shouldn’t be a problem to complain when you think you are getting a subpar educational experience. Having a mid level precept a whole rotation is likely a cost saving measure and on average will provide a less effective clinical experience for the student.

If you want me to somehow have sympathy for the evolving scam that is medical school education you will have to try a bit harder...

 

[7331poas]

I think clearly students can learn from NPs. What people are ignoring is the fact that students pay 70k+ per year.

The decision to put NPs as the teachers of medical students is not a decision based on "wow I bet students are going to learn a lot here!". Instead its "we have already collected their checks and there is nothing they can do about it".

I have seen NPs on the clinical team, NPs hand out clinical grades on rotations, they have taught preclinical classes, etc etc. The fact is that NPs in medical school education is no different than having "radiology extenders" in the reading room.

Admin??? I'm no f'ing Admin. I work for a living! I teach medical students!

Given that this is SDN, I should have expected the complaining, the wailing and gnashing of teeth, the bitterness, and, of course, the elitism.

We now return you to your usual SDN dumpster fire.

Calling out others on "elitism" is a bit rich no?

 

[Redpancreas]

I think clearly students can learn from NPs. What people are ignoring is the fact that students pay 70k+ per year.

The decision to put NPs as the teachers of medical students is not a decision based on "wow I bet students are going to learn a lot here!". Instead its "we have already collected their checks and there is nothing they can do about it".

I have seen NPs on the clinical team, NPs hand out clinical grades on rotations, they have taught preclinical classes, etc etc. The fact is that NPs in medical school education is no different than having "radiology extenders" in the reading room.



Calling out others on "elitism" is a bit rich no?

1.) The 70K has nothing to do with how the curriculum is designed, but issues like state funding, overhead, etc. It's an entirely different discussion. The actual curriculum itself could be overhauled and improved easily without increasing tuition much but administrators lack the incentives/innovation/motivation to do so.

2.) I have never seen an NP be responsible for grading a medical student on clinical rotations or be responsible for a class lecture in didactic years. I think this is completely inappropriate. If others experienced this, we should start a name and shame and start listing some places that do this. Frequency is a key variable. We need to be careful between differentiating between something that happened 1 time in 4 years vs. something that happened over the course of en entire rotation. Both are wrong, but one illustrates a systemic problem.

 

[PedsGI77]

That’s not a good argument. Medicine is a team sport. Should I be precepted by LPNs? ED techs? They are crucial parts of the team.

It is one thing to learn from midlevels and nurses. On my ENT rotation right now, I learned how to do a flexible nasopharyngoscopy from the PA. She was a good teacher and I learned how to do it well. But I should be learning from the physicians how to take that imaging and incorporate it into forming a ddx and plan. That’s what physicians do, and midlevels don’t typically have the necessary level of education to adequately precept and teach med students.

In my experience, as a third year med student, I have known more medicine than the midlevels. I shouldn’t be taught how to doctor by someone with less education than me. That doesn’t mean I can’t learn from them. I can learn from everyone.

I think you should take a step back and re-evaluate that thought. Otherwise, I hope your senior residents reign you on. As an ms3 you can’t even begin to know what you don’t know.

 

[WildEMDoc]

A NPP should never be in charge/core precepting a medical student. Any occurrence like that is absolutely out of line and should be reported; I believe there was a mechanism to report this to the LCME, as a group of us did in medical school when an NP was placed in charge of our daily activities/learning on the unit.

Learning things from NPPs/nurses/varying staff is absolutely a key part of being a medical student and resident.

But them being in charge of or dictating your medical education is completely out of line and should not be tolerated on any level.

 

[dnyal]

You’re totally clueless

The team doesn’t do my history, the team doesn’t do my physical, the team doesn’t come up with my labs or imaging or diagnosis or med choice

Have you ever been to any PCP's office lately as a patient??? Especially in smaller cities???
It seems it is someone else who's lacking the clues.

 

[Hawk Eye Pierce]

At my institution, the only APPs that were able to evaluate me were the nurse midwives. Everyone rotates with them in clinic on OBGYN. Usually 2-3 half days and they may let you in on deliveries on L&D. Otherwise I was with OBGYNs residents and attendings. Outside of OBGYN, I spent several days with CRNAs on anesthesia (they could not evaluate me) and I followed a few interesting patient with a PA or NP in specialty clinics. NPs and PAs often ran the floor patients on surgical services. They were my go to person if I needed to follow up on a patient after a day in the OR. They were mostly good experiences. Some of the CRNAs were rough on anesthesia, but if I had a bad experience I would tell the attending and they would find a different room.

 

[dnyal]

Is that based on your countless hours in the clinical environment Goro?

Give us a break.

I have 18,000+ hrs in the clinical environment as a physician (albeit overseas), and it is a team effort, absolutely. If that is not the case in America, I am already thoroughly disappointed and will invest my efforts in trying to change that.

 

[SunBakedTrash]

What’s the big deal? Half the battle is learning what not to do.

 

[globalsurgeon]

not all mds are the same. Some will teach you well, others won’t bother. The only source you can depend on is books. As long as you keep studying and reading you’ll keep learning. Don’t be blinded by labels. A lot of docs are not evidence based.

try to learn something from everyone and you’ll get to the next level

If you really want more md time then do an elective after

you might be pleasantly surprised how much you may learn when your non md preceptor encourages you to ask and think and read and contribute

 

[Lawpy]

I think you should take a step back and re-evaluate that thought. Otherwise, I hope your senior residents reign you on. As an ms3 you can’t even begin to know what you don’t know.

This post makes no sense

 

[Lawpy]

not all mds are the same. Some will teach you well, others won’t bother. The only source you can depend on is books. As long as you keep studying and reading you’ll keep learning. Don’t be blinded by labels. A lot of docs are not evidence based.

try to learn something from everyone and you’ll get to the next level

If you really want more md time then do an elective after

you might be pleasantly surprised how much you may learn when your non md preceptor encourages you to ask and think and read and contribute

The attendings who don't bother to teach should be reported and permanently removed from clinical teaching service

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I think you should take a step back and re-evaluate that thought. Otherwise, I hope your senior residents reign you on. As an ms3 you can’t even begin to know what you don’t know.

I think you should re-read what I wrote. You’re taking it in a way I’m not meaning it.

 

[Lem0nz]

The attendings who don't bother to teach should be reported and permanently removed from clinical teaching service

If we did this to every subpar or crummy attending we rotated with through medical school and residency you would have 1/4 less teachers and 1/4 less exposure to patients. Those attendings are not being paid to teach, they’re being paid to see patients and also happen to teach/expose you, usually at no real gain to the attending.

Not saying you’re necessarily wrong, but attending physicians are not widgets that can be replaced in the scheme of education, because that’s not the underlying reason they’re there with the exception of PDs and APDs (sort of) and maybe possibly the guy in charge of medical students for the department, but even that I believe is at best a tiny stipend of like 10k a year.

 

[Lawpy]

If we did this to every subpar or crummy attending we rotated with through medical school and residency you would have 1/4 less teachers and 1/4 less exposure to patients. Those attendings are not being paid to teach, they’re being paid to see patients and also happen to teach/expose you, usually at no real gain to the attending.

Not saying you’re necessarily wrong, but attending physicians are not widgets that can be replaced in the scheme of education, because that’s not the underlying reason they’re there with the exception of PDs and APDs (sort of) and maybe possibly the guy in charge of medical students for the department, but even that I believe is at best a tiny stipend of like 10k a year.

I think attendings should be paid a lot more to teach and the med education pathway should be made more popular across all schools to incentivize future educators

 

[Chads2]

The attendings who don't bother to teach should be reported and permanently removed from clinical teaching service

In our program, we have both teaching and non-teaching services in several different disciplines

 

[Lem0nz]

I think attendings should be paid a lot more to teach and the med education pathway should be made more popular across all schools to incentivize future educators

I agree but that would be prohibitively expensive.