Is it worth going into medical school if you don't want to do a residency?

[Passionseeking]

Ok before I get shut down immediately hear me out, I am very familiar with the "don't go to medical school if you don't want to practice medicine" line. The thing is that I do want to practice medicine, but after familiarizing myself with what residency truly is I decided that I need to be honest with myself, is this the right path for me? I love helping people, I love the science behind medicine, but I don't like suffering. Working 80+ hours a week while being sleep deprived for YEARS is a major turn-off for me. From what I've gathered practically everyone who has completed a residency has said that they were only able to do it through pure ignorance, if they had known about what they were in store for or if they had to do it again they wouldn't dare.

I don't want to semi-blindly follow that same path out of naivety and endure the same faith of burnout, anti-depression meds, sleep deprivation, sacrificing YEARS of your life and valuable memories/experiences, losing amazing relationships with friends, family, and loved ones, etc. I believe most premeds don't fully understand what they're getting into and by the time they do, they are 100k or more in debt and are essentially forced to go down this path. Like I can't stress the "fully" enough, yea they know that med school is going to be hard, residency is going to be harder, but they don't FULLY understand until they experience it.

People tend to say that this is something you should only do if there is nothing else you can see yourself doing. I agree with that advice, I have contemplated heavily on other career paths such as physical therapy, PA, nonclinical careers, etc, and out of all of them, I can't see myself happy if I never got my MD or DO.

So anyway to get to the point, I do want to get either an MD or DO, I know medical school will be very rough but I love learning and I know it will be at least decently manageable. However, instead of going down the path of residency and then becoming an attending, I have been considering getting an MD/MBA and then exploring a career in biotech, pharm, R&D, VC, Consulting, etc. Yes I know that you don't need an MD to do all that but I believe that the knowledge that you gain from medical school will be very applicable to those endeavors.

I have read a handful of articles that show how more and more people who graduate with their MD/MBA or DO/MBA are less likely to pursue residency, and usually enter one of the career paths that I listed formerly. I have watched podcasts with many doctors who either didn't go to residency, or didn't finish residency and instead end up pursuing careers in medical technology and their lives change drastically. Their work hours are more favorable, they develop things that could help a large number of people, and they make not only more than they would in residency but sometimes more than their potential attending salaries. They all credit their success in their medical innovations to what they learned in medical school so to respond prematurely to a comment I am sure I might see, no I can't just go to MBA school alone because I wouldn't have that medical knowledge.

So I am wondering if this is a viable option, to go to medical school and then to probably pursue a career in some sort of biotech, without doing residency or a typical residency. What's interesting is that these doctors that I have mentioned still practice clinically without having finished a residency so I think that would be the best of both worlds.

I would love if anyone knows anyone who has done a similar path or knows of anyone who has done something like what I mentioned, open to any advice or feedback or maybe some information that I didn't know. I am just a lowly premed so I might be missing something and if I am sorry in advance.

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[RangerBob]

I don't think it's worth the time/effort/sacrifice to get and MD if you know ahead of time you won't be doing a residency. Medical training is very tailored to a certain profession, and much less translatable than others (like law, English, etc.). It doesn't mean there aren't plenty of jobs out there for MD's (and DO's) who don't want to practice, but most are for physicians who have at least a few years of experience as a practicing clinician. Those that don't require experience likely have easier/better routes than MD/DO.

Also, not all residency is suffering. I had a blast--my life didn't just start when I became an attending in my mid-30's. It was not on hold for med school/residency. I did have a better residency than most--my intern year was a max 60hrs/week. Residency in PM&R 45-60hrs in PGY2, and closer to 40hrs in PGY3-4. Psych residencies can be the same/better. But if you don't like those fields, it's not worth it--it's better to work 60hrs in a job you love than 40 in one you hate.

Even better is work 20-30hrs/week in a job where you help people and make a lot of money. Not many jobs allow that. Medicine does once you're an attending, and certain specialties will be easier to do that with (like psych).

 

[LizzyM]

Good luck with this. Be sure to write about it in your personal statement and expound upon your plans in the interviews.... or lie. Your choice.

 

[YCAGA]

Many residencies max out at 60 hours/week with the exception of maybe a few months of 80 hours/week and those months are spread out over 3-5 years. An MD is pretty useless in industry without an unrestricted medical license and at least a 3 year residency. Why would they hire an MD over a PhD with much deeper knowledge in the field? Or someone with an MBA with actual business experience?

I understand being afraid of residency and the messed up system we have in the US, but it isn’t soul crushing in every speciality at every program. And, there are realistic international options for residency if you care about lifestyle more than salary and are okay with practicing medicine abroad for your entire career.

You really need to decide if you want to do clinical medicine or industry/business. Don’t go to medical school if you don’t want to do clinical medicine. You will learn so much useless stuff because, like I said, without a medical license you can’t supervise patients as physician for a company.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

What is the ROI on a medical degree in the fields you suggest? I think that is the big question. Unless you are an elite student, pre clinical is very hard. Do you do hard? It appears from your concerns, maybe no? I suppose preclinical wouldn't be too bad if you just wanted to pass. For me, I could never spend the time or money just to cruise through. But, we are not all the same. It appears plausible, but you just might get stuck working for an insurance company denying claims filed by your classmates. Best of luck, I hope it works out.

 

[YCAGA]

What is the ROI on a medical degree in the fields you suggest? I think that is the big question. Unless you are an elite student, pre clinical is very hard. Do you do hard? It appears from your concerns, maybe no? I suppose preclinical wouldn't be too bad if you just wanted to pass. For me, I could never spend the time or money just to cruise through. But, we are not all the same. It appears plausible, but you just might get stuck working for an insurance company denying claims filed by your classmates. Best of luck, I hope it works out.

Can you even work for an insurance company without a medical license? I honestly have no idea but sounds like you are familiar with those jobs.

I feel like OP would need to at least do an intern year to get a medical license. At which point just do 2 more years with probably better hours and easily make double what you would make without a residency.

 

[LizzyM]

I know of someone from a top 20 school who skipped residency and went directly into a health care consulting firm. The person also had a masters degree so there was an additional skillset too. Has been very successful, from what I can tell. YMMV

The consulting firms are also snapping up newly minted PhDs in biological science. They "like the way they think".

 

[Faha]

Obtaining a MD or DO degree without doing a residency severely limits your options. You could do MD or DO school and a MPH or PhD and go into research, teaching, pharmaceutical industry, etc. . A better option, if you are unwilling to do an entire 3+ year residency, would be to do one year in a transitional program in Family Medicine or one year in Pathology. There are many states where one can obtain a medical license after one year of residency. Although your practice options would be very limited it would open up more opportunities for you in research, teaching, etc. if you have an active medical license.

 

[alm414]

I mean sure if you're comparing literally the worst aspects of residency to the absolute best case scenarios of those anecdotal accounts you've heard of people being successful without residency, I bet it sounds real appealing. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but you're going to get a lot of bias when looking for stories about that, because well...the people who try that and fail have literally nothing left to do. You're only hearing the stories of the people who succeeded. The people who didn't pursue residency to pursue other ventures, and failed, likely have a near impossible hill to climb to get back to residency. Someone more familiar with the residency application process can chime in here, but would it even be possible to apply to residency after so many years have passed since medical school?

If you think you want to practice medicine, go to medical school, do your residency, and become a doctor. If after doing all that, you decide you'd rather pursue other ventures than just patient care, then go try those. At least if you fail you can go back to being a doctor. If you don't do residency though, and fail, I have to imagine it will be extremely difficult to return.

 

[zorcandpals]

For the career path you're describing, you're essentially treating a medical degree as a very expensive but more prestigeous masters in biology/clinical science/ something like that. From a strictly ROI perspective probably not worth it; just get a masters in the thing and an MBA.

But it seems you're also significantly overestimating how ****ty residency is so if thats the main fear I dont think you should be that worried.

 

[YCAGA]

I mean sure if you're comparing literally the worst aspects of residency to the absolute best case scenarios of those anecdotal accounts you've heard of people being successful without residency, I bet it sounds real appealing. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but you're going to get a lot of bias when looking for stories about that, because well...the people who try that and fail have literally nothing left to do. You're only hearing the stories of the people who succeeded. The people who didn't pursue residency to pursue other ventures, and failed, likely have a near impossible hill to climb to get back to residency. Someone more familiar with the residency application process can chime in here, but would it even be possible to apply to residency after so many years have passed since medical school?

If you think you want to practice medicine, go to medical school, do your residency, and become a doctor. If after doing all that, you decide you'd rather pursue other ventures than just patient care, then go try those. At least if you fail you can go back to being a doctor. If you don't do residency though, and fail, I have to imagine it will be extremely difficult to return.

Most states you have around 7 years to pass step 1 through step 3, so that is a possible thing that could blow up in your face if you fail at a non-residency path. In addition to like 10 other things lol

 

[SpliceOfLife]

The difference between the doctors you watched on the internet or read about and what you want to do is that most physicians who do not pursue residency figure that out after they have already matriculated.

Those people are at a different decision point- they have incurred a lot of debt and have already invested years into medical school so time and money are sunk costs. They now need to figure out how to make money while avoiding residency and potentially not being miserable for the rest of their lives. The decision they make to not do residency is a calculated one that makes sense given their extenuating circumstances.

It would not make sense for you to do that if you haven't even gotten into medical school. You have no medical school debt. You haven't sunk years into studying for these exams. Heck you don't even know exactly what it is that you would specifically do with a medical degree outside of the medical field (biotech? bioengineering? big pharma? healthcare consulting? startup?). It makes no sense for you to take on the burden of applying to and getting into medical school just so that you can use it as a stepping stone to something else. It's too big of an unnecessary burden.

Your life and time and money would be better served by just figuring out what it is that you actually want to do (bc it's clearly not clinical medicine) and then doing that. If you want to do bioengineering then get a masters and a PhD in that field. If you want to do consulting then get a consulting job. For almost anything you want to do there is undoubtedly a cheaper and faster way to do it that does not involve medical school.

 

[Goro]

Ok before I get shut down immediately hear me out, I am very familiar with the "don't go to medical school if you don't want to practice medicine" line. The thing is that I do want to practice medicine, but after familiarizing myself with what residency truly is I decided that I need to be honest with myself, is this the right path for me? I love helping people, I love the science behind medicine, but I don't like suffering. Working 80+ hours a week while being sleep deprived for YEARS is a major turn-off for me. From what I've gathered practically everyone who has completed a residency has said that they were only able to do it through pure ignorance, if they had known about what they were in store for or if they had to do it again they wouldn't dare.

I don't want to semi-blindly follow that same path out of naivety and endure the same faith of burnout, anti-depression meds, sleep deprivation, sacrificing YEARS of your life and valuable memories/experiences, losing amazing relationships with friends, family, and loved ones, etc. I believe most premeds don't fully understand what they're getting into and by the time they do, they are 100k or more in debt and are essentially forced to go down this path. Like I can't stress the "fully" enough, yea they know that med school is going to be hard, residency is going to be harder, but they don't FULLY understand until they experience it.

People tend to say that this is something you should only do if there is nothing else you can see yourself doing. I agree with that advice, I have contemplated heavily on other career paths such as physical therapy, PA, nonclinical careers, etc, and out of all of them, I can't see myself happy if I never got my MD or DO.

So anyway to get to the point, I do want to get either an MD or DO, I know medical school will be very rough but I love learning and I know it will be at least decently manageable. However, instead of going down the path of residency and then becoming an attending, I have been considering getting an MD/MBA and then exploring a career in biotech, pharm, R&D, VC, Consulting, etc. Yes I know that you don't need an MD to do all that but I believe that the knowledge that you gain from medical school will be very applicable to those endeavors.

I have read a handful of articles that show how more and more people who graduate with their MD/MBA or DO/MBA are less likely to pursue residency, and usually enter one of the career paths that I listed formerly. I have watched podcasts with many doctors who either didn't go to residency, or didn't finish residency and instead end up pursuing careers in medical technology and their lives change drastically. Their work hours are more favorable, they develop things that could help a large number of people, and they make not only more than they would in residency but sometimes more than their potential attending salaries. They all credit their success in their medical innovations to what they learned in medical school so to respond prematurely to a comment I am sure I might see, no I can't just go to MBA school alone because I wouldn't have that medical knowledge.

So I am wondering if this is a viable option, to go to medical school and then to probably pursue a career in some sort of biotech, without doing residency or a typical residency. What's interesting is that these doctors that I have mentioned still practice clinically without having finished a residency so I think that would be the best of both worlds.

I would love if anyone knows anyone who has done a similar path or knows of anyone who has done something like what I mentioned, open to any advice or feedback or maybe some information that I didn't know. I am just a lowly premed so I might be missing something and if I am sorry in advance.

you don't need a medical degree to help people, and or learn sciency things

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

My N=1 quit residency for healthcare VC, has MD/MBA from T5. It can be done but comes with risk.

 

[lumya]

So, I work in healthcare consulting but obviously not in any sort of clinical capacity. I do work with some people who have medical degrees but they're usually career changers after practicing for a decent while (i.e. early retirement from clinical work) or work in some sort of part-time capacity while still being involved in clinical care elsewhere. I also work with tons of incredibly bright and successful individuals who have PhDs or Masters degrees who do very similar things.

I think the cost vs. benefit is really skewed. Why would you take out $250k in debt to get a job that makes $100k a year if you can get similar experience in a less costly field that allows you to get a license without residency? You also mention not wanting to do a residency because you're working long hours, sleep deprived, and don't get paid a lot - but guess what I'm living through right now (seriously, my email notification gives me heart palpitations).

You're being dazzled by all of the glittery things about industry/business medicine where there are a lot of downsides. Obviously medicine has a lot of ups and downs as well and it's just up to you to figure out which of the two you find more palatable.

If you're not interested in clinical care, I can see a lot of various other routes to get to where you want, unless the sole goal of going to medical school is to get that MD/DO after your name.

 

[Passionseeking]

I know of someone from a top 20 school who skipped residency and went directly into a health care consulting firm. The person also had a masters degree so there was an additional skillset too. Has been very successful, from what I can tell. YMMV

The consulting firms are also snapping up newly minted PhDs in biological science. They "like the way they think".

Yea I keep seeing that many MDs who go to top schools have an increased opportunity to work for things such as consulting firms. I hope this isn't too personal but do you know anything more about them? Would love to hear their story

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

Is it worth trying to get into the NFL if you dont want to play Football?

 

[Passionseeking]

Obtaining a MD or DO degree without doing a residency severely limits your options. You could do MD or DO school and a MPH or PhD and go into research, teaching, pharmaceutical industry, etc. . A better option, if you are unwilling to do an entire 3+ year residency, would be to do one year in a transitional program in Family Medicine or one year in Pathology. There are many states where one can obtain a medical license after one year of residency. Although your practice options would be very limited it would open up more opportunities for you in research, teaching, etc. if you have an active medical license.

This is very interesting, I wasn't really aware about being able to receive a medical license after only one year of residency. If possible could expand a little more or this and what one would be able to do. I'm also interested in family medicine (because I like the idea of being a generalist, not having crazy circadian rhythm shifts like EM, and the long term relationships with patients), but from what I've heard FM/IM have the must brutal residencies, only residencies that I've seen that are worse would be surgical stuff.

 

[Passionseeking]

For the career path you're describing, you're essentially treating a medical degree as a very expensive but more prestigeous masters in biology/clinical science/ something like that. From a strictly ROI perspective probably not worth it; just get a masters in the thing and an MBA.

But it seems you're also significantly overestimating how ****ty residency is so if thats the main fear I dont think you should be that worried.

I think depending on what one goes into it could be worth it, and honestly I wish I was overestimating residency but I'm afraid that I'm probably not. 60-80 hours a week unless you're doing PMR or Psych is crazy. For 3 years MINIMUM and crazy call. I've read many stories of long term relationships ending because the demands of residency were too much on the relationship. If you can't even maintain that then forget about having any semblance of a social life or doing something that isn't medicine related for years. Like I've heard the "it's only x amount of years of your life and then when you're an attending...." That's cool and all but there's no guarantee you'll be alive to be an attending, there's no guarantee (depending on the specialty) that attending life will be THAT much better.

I really wish I'm overestimating the L that is residency but I don't think it's just a coincidence that this is the profession with the highest suicide rates by a mile.

I don't like the idea of enduring years of suffering just waiting for attending life, I love medicine and I'm passionate about it but I don't think that it means that I need to sacrifice everything just to do it. This is also the FIRST time I've ever seen someone say that residency isn't as bad as they say.

 

[Passionseeking]

The difference between the doctors you watched on the internet or read about and what you want to do is that most physicians who do not pursue residency figure that out after they have already matriculated.

Those people are at a different decision point- they have incurred a lot of debt and have already invested years into medical school so time and money are sunk costs. They now need to figure out how to make money while avoiding residency and potentially not being miserable for the rest of their lives. The decision they make to not do residency is a calculated one that makes sense given their extenuating circumstances.

It would not make sense for you to do that if you haven't even gotten into medical school. You have no medical school debt. You haven't sunk years into studying for these exams. Heck you don't even know exactly what it is that you would specifically do with a medical degree outside of the medical field (biotech? bioengineering? big pharma? healthcare consulting? startup?). It makes no sense for you to take on the burden of applying to and getting into medical school just so that you can use it as a stepping stone to something else. It's too big of an unnecessary burden.

Your life and time and money would be better served by just figuring out what it is that you actually want to do (bc it's clearly not clinical medicine) and then doing that. If you want to do bioengineering then get a masters and a PhD in that field. If you want to do consulting then get a consulting job. For almost anything you want to do there is undoubtedly a cheaper and faster way to do it that does not involve medical school.

Yes you make an amazing point but the thing is that if I were to go into those fields I wouldn't be doing the same thing that an MD/DO in those fields would be doing. For example I couldn't be a CMO without an MD/DO degree

 

[Passionseeking]

My N=1 quit residency for healthcare VC, has MD/MBA from T5. It can be done but comes with risk.

Could you please say more

 

[YCAGA]

There is way too much to unpack in your flurry of posts in any reasonable amount of time, but basically all of your assumptions and conceptions about medicine and residency are wrong. I can break stuff down individually later but you are dangerously misinformed about this whole medicine thing. Where are you getting your info???

 

[Passionseeking]

So, I work in healthcare consulting but obviously not in any sort of clinical capacity. I do work with some people who have medical degrees but they're usually career changers after practicing for a decent while (i.e. early retirement from clinical work) or work in some sort of part-time capacity while still being involved in clinical care elsewhere. I also work with tons of incredibly bright and successful individuals who have PhDs or Masters degrees who do very similar things.

I think the cost vs. benefit is really skewed. Why would you take out $250k in debt to get a job that makes $100k a year if you can get similar experience in a less costly field that allows you to get a license without residency? You also mention not wanting to do a residency because you're working long hours, sleep deprived, and don't get paid a lot - but guess what I'm living through right now (seriously, my email notification gives me heart palpitations).

You're being dazzled by all of the glittery things about industry/business medicine where there are a lot of downsides. Obviously medicine has a lot of ups and downs as well and it's just up to you to figure out which of the two you find more palatable.

If you're not interested in clinical care, I can see a lot of various other routes to get to where you want, unless the sole goal of going to medical school is to get that MD/DO after your name.

Could you please elaborate on other routes? Would love to hear them.

 

[LizzyM]

There is an old saying... if you could picture yourself being happy doing anything else, do that.

 

[YCAGA]

There is an old saying... if you could picture yourself being happy doing anything else, do that.

Also this^ no one here is going to talk you into medical school if you think it is horrible and ruins your life. Plenty of people feel that way…that’s why not everyone is premed…

 

[Melchizedek]

OP you're worried about residency being miserable?
Med school itself is no cake walk.
*Insert list of stories of medical students dropping out after regretting starting medical school*

If you want to be a physician, go to medical school.

Medical school isn't just learning medical knowledge, a large part of it also how to put your medical knowledge into clinical application, which you are not interested in. If you want medical knowledge, self-study sketchy med, First Aid, and pathoma. Do a masters in biomedical science. Get a second degree in Biomechanical engineering. It's the 21st century, medical knowledge isn't in tomes locked away only in medical school towers. Don't take away a spot that could go to someone who would utilize it to its full extent.

 

[KnightDoc]

Yes you make an amazing point but the thing is that if I were to go into those fields I wouldn't be doing the same thing that an MD/DO in those fields would be doing. For example I couldn't be a CMO without an MD/DO degree

I'm just a premed like you, so I'm far from an expert, and maybe have rose colored glasses on for not obsessing on what you seem to be focused on. But, let me ask you this -- why do you think a MD/DO without the experience is a golden ticket to anything?

What makes you think a CMO isn't someone coming from practice with years of experience who is looking for a change? Why on earth would you think a shortcut to the good life is going to be made available to someone who didn't pay their dues, when there would be literally hundreds of thousands of better qualified (i.e., experienced) people potentially available for any job that requires the degree?

It just seems like a long shot to think you will be able to catch lightning in a bottle and actually get any job you couldn't just get without the MD/DO. From what everyone has been saying, it sounds like the MD/DO will be a very expensive "nice to have," but, without the requisite experience, including residency, it's not going to get you anywhere where the degree (and experience) is actually required.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Could you please say more

What more you need? He did MD/MBA and was planning to go into hospital management after completing residency and practice few years but got VC opportunity so quit residency and already made a partner.

 

[Shunsui]

someone's been on the residency subreddit a bit too much...

 

[YCAGA]

To expend on what other people have said, if you are sure you will hate residency, feel like you have no life, won’t be able to have relationships, will throw away your youth, etc etc…why would medical school be any different? It isn’t like we are working 15 hours a week and then surfing the rest of the week during medical school. Even preclinical years aren’t as cush as a generic comp sci job in terms of lifestyle. You will be working similar hours to residency during M3 depending on the rotation. Not saying it will be as difficult as residency, but if you think residency will break you, that’s fine, it’s not for everyone…but that also means medical school isn’t for you.

 

[deleted1027026]

Ok before I get shut down immediately hear me out, I am very familiar with the "don't go to medical school if you don't want to practice medicine" line. The thing is that I do want to practice medicine, but after familiarizing myself with what residency truly is I decided that I need to be honest with myself, is this the right path for me? I love helping people, I love the science behind medicine, but I don't like suffering. Working 80+ hours a week while being sleep deprived for YEARS is a major turn-off for me. From what I've gathered practically everyone who has completed a residency has said that they were only able to do it through pure ignorance, if they had known about what they were in store for or if they had to do it again they wouldn't dare.

I don't want to semi-blindly follow that same path out of naivety and endure the same faith of burnout, anti-depression meds, sleep deprivation, sacrificing YEARS of your life and valuable memories/experiences, losing amazing relationships with friends, family, and loved ones, etc. I believe most premeds don't fully understand what they're getting into and by the time they do, they are 100k or more in debt and are essentially forced to go down this path. Like I can't stress the "fully" enough, yea they know that med school is going to be hard, residency is going to be harder, but they don't FULLY understand until they experience it.

People tend to say that this is something you should only do if there is nothing else you can see yourself doing. I agree with that advice, I have contemplated heavily on other career paths such as physical therapy, PA, nonclinical careers, etc, and out of all of them, I can't see myself happy if I never got my MD or DO.

So anyway to get to the point, I do want to get either an MD or DO, I know medical school will be very rough but I love learning and I know it will be at least decently manageable. However, instead of going down the path of residency and then becoming an attending, I have been considering getting an MD/MBA and then exploring a career in biotech, pharm, R&D, VC, Consulting, etc. Yes I know that you don't need an MD to do all that but I believe that the knowledge that you gain from medical school will be very applicable to those endeavors.

I have read a handful of articles that show how more and more people who graduate with their MD/MBA or DO/MBA are less likely to pursue residency, and usually enter one of the career paths that I listed formerly. I have watched podcasts with many doctors who either didn't go to residency, or didn't finish residency and instead end up pursuing careers in medical technology and their lives change drastically. Their work hours are more favorable, they develop things that could help a large number of people, and they make not only more than they would in residency but sometimes more than their potential attending salaries. They all credit their success in their medical innovations to what they learned in medical school so to respond prematurely to a comment I am sure I might see, no I can't just go to MBA school alone because I wouldn't have that medical knowledge.

So I am wondering if this is a viable option, to go to medical school and then to probably pursue a career in some sort of biotech, without doing residency or a typical residency. What's interesting is that these doctors that I have mentioned still practice clinically without having finished a residency so I think that would be the best of both worlds.

I would love if anyone knows anyone who has done a similar path or knows of anyone who has done something like what I mentioned, open to any advice or feedback or maybe some information that I didn't know. I am just a lowly premed so I might be missing something and if I am sorry in advance.

Please don't take a spot from someone who is dying to practice medicine because it is their dream. Look into PhD, MBA, or something.

It sounds to me that perhaps you've been put in a position where going to med school is the only path you know. Most likely because this is the only thing your parents ever told you. There are numerous other careers out there that can be more lucrative and/or better work-life balance than being a physician, you need to do your research and figure that out yourself.

Not pursuing a residency after obtaining your MD would be a waste of your time and money.

 

[longhaul3]

I would not recommend going to med school knowing you don't want to practice medicine. It's expensive and time-consuming and the ROI if you're not going into clinical medicine is low.

On the other hand, I don't think residency is that bad. You have to be interested in what you're doing, though. If all you can think about is how many hours you'd be working every week for x years, you'd hate it, but I bet if that were the case you'd hate any other job with long hours, like consulting. Even so, I think that even the most pessimistic and brooding med school grad could grin and bear it through an FM/IM/psych/PMR residency. The degree alone is not worth much.

To me it's all about perspective. Residents who are well adjusted do just fine. The work-life balance is way on the work side, but most relationships and marriages make it through just fine. I have a reasonable social life that was also better before covid.

 

[nicesecrets]

Yes you make an amazing point but the thing is that if I were to go into those fields I wouldn't be doing the same thing that an MD/DO in those fields would be doing. For example I couldn't be a CMO without an MD/DO degree

OP, I am going to apply to med school this year but currently work in pharma. Every single MD I work with has completed residency and is board certified. Someone mentioned this earlier, but companies require board-certified physicians to sign off on the safety of the patients in our clinical trials. You are right that you need an MD for CMO, but you also need the board certification. Most of the MDs/DOs I work with in industry are specialists and many also have years of clinical experience before transitioning into the non-clinical role.

Possible option to get into pharma without residency is going into the business side of things.. I know an MD who did not pursue residency and went into consulting and is now heading a business division of a biotech.. another famous example is the CEO of Novartis... Can it be done? Sure.. but consider that most of these MD-to-consultants graduated from the top med schools (many consulting firms are biased towards the Harvard/Stanford class of schools), had stellar academic profiles while in school, and then had to live the consultant/VC life for many years before finally getting that "comfortable" life you are talking about. Yes, residency is hard but being a management consultant at McKinsey or Bain or one of those big consulting companies (assuming you even get in) is definitely no cake walk either..

 

[RangerBob]

OP--we were all in your shoes once. Young and really excited to hear more about our future opportunities, but also afraid of what sacrifice each those opportunities may require.

I'm going to be frank with you: just about any job worth having that provides a decent lifestyle (hours and/or income) will require a fair amount of sacrifice.

I used to want to be an architect. They have the worst hours of any college student. See someone sleeping on a bench or walking around school with a toothbrush in their breast pocket? Probably an architecture student. They get paid far less than us during their internship, it's far more competitive to get a good one (physicians have the match), and their hours as interns are atrocious just like ours, particularly at deadlines. They'll go well over 80hrs those weeks. Pay/hours aren't a whole lot better once their licensed, and likely on par, at best, with a resident's salary. Maybe someday they make partner/found their own firm, but then they're always having to be a salesperson, and their income still rarely approaches ours (the top 25% of architects average just over $100k). But their hours may.

Cops, firefighters? Lots of forced overtime. Always feeling undervalued. Dangerous conditions. Teachers? Worse pay, worse hours (I can't tell you how many hours my sister works after class is over) and clearly even less appreciated. Park ranger? That's my dream retirement job, but hours can still be very long and can you really support a family on $40k?

Engineers often have decent lifestyles it seems. Most of what they do seems rather boring and mundane to me though, unless you're in a leading and cutting--edge firm. But then... hours.

Yet, I've met incredibly happy cops, firefighters, engineers, teachers, and believe it or not, doctors (and even surgeons!). So life isn't doom and gloom--I say the above to highlight that if you only compare the bad in one field to the good in the others, you're not making the most informed comparison.

You need to have a realistic view of what a profession is really like, and ask yourself if it may really be a good fit. Know what the good is and the bad, and ask yourself if you can really deal with the bad, and more importantly, the routine/mundane. As a physician, even on a boring day (I don't really know what that is), I can still say I'm making a difference and my job and my presence has meaning. I'm not just a paycheck for my family--I'm literally (ok, metaphorically) rebuilding lives.

Life is a decent amount of work and sacrifice. Always has been, ever since the first cave-man had to find his own cave, find his own food, stay warm each night, prove to a cave-woman he had what it takes to provide stable shelter for a family, etc. It's actually not that bad, though being a college kid was pretty great. But we all eventually have to grow up, and it's best to find whatever it is you'll enjoy the most. If it's medicine, I guarantee you won't feel residency is that bad. Hard work? Yes. But miserable? No. Would I want to do it again? Absolutely not--but I look back very fondly at the memories, and it got me to where I am today.

 

[SpliceOfLife]

Yes you make an amazing point but the thing is that if I were to go into those fields I wouldn't be doing the same thing that an MD/DO in those fields would be doing. For example I couldn't be a CMO without an MD/DO degree

Chief Medical Officers are responsible for overseeing and managing policies for employees and clients/customers of a company. Overwhelmingly these people have clinical experience (i.e., residency training). I would be very skeptical that any company would hire you to manage people's healthcare when you purposefully chose NOT to manage people's healthcare by avoiding residency. If it were up to me, I would hire an MD with a residency background any day for a CMO position over an MD with no residency background.

Also another reason I would really discourage you from going to medical school for the reasons you stated is that it makes you look really out-of-touch, and I hate to say it since I don't know you, but self-centered. Not sure if you know this but we are in the middle of a healthcare crisis where we have a shortage of primary care doctors and midlevels are trying to step in to fill our shoes, particularly in the middle of this pandemic. In my opinion you should not be taking up a medical school seat if you don't actually want to practice clinical medicine when you could be taking that away from someone who will actually work with patients.

 

[Mad Jack]

Ok before I get shut down immediately hear me out, I am very familiar with the "don't go to medical school if you don't want to practice medicine" line. The thing is that I do want to practice medicine, but after familiarizing myself with what residency truly is I decided that I need to be honest with myself, is this the right path for me? I love helping people, I love the science behind medicine, but I don't like suffering. Working 80+ hours a week while being sleep deprived for YEARS is a major turn-off for me. From what I've gathered practically everyone who has completed a residency has said that they were only able to do it through pure ignorance, if they had known about what they were in store for or if they had to do it again they wouldn't dare.

I don't want to semi-blindly follow that same path out of naivety and endure the same faith of burnout, anti-depression meds, sleep deprivation, sacrificing YEARS of your life and valuable memories/experiences, losing amazing relationships with friends, family, and loved ones, etc. I believe most premeds don't fully understand what they're getting into and by the time they do, they are 100k or more in debt and are essentially forced to go down this path. Like I can't stress the "fully" enough, yea they know that med school is going to be hard, residency is going to be harder, but they don't FULLY understand until they experience it.

People tend to say that this is something you should only do if there is nothing else you can see yourself doing. I agree with that advice, I have contemplated heavily on other career paths such as physical therapy, PA, nonclinical careers, etc, and out of all of them, I can't see myself happy if I never got my MD or DO.

So anyway to get to the point, I do want to get either an MD or DO, I know medical school will be very rough but I love learning and I know it will be at least decently manageable. However, instead of going down the path of residency and then becoming an attending, I have been considering getting an MD/MBA and then exploring a career in biotech, pharm, R&D, VC, Consulting, etc. Yes I know that you don't need an MD to do all that but I believe that the knowledge that you gain from medical school will be very applicable to those endeavors.

I have read a handful of articles that show how more and more people who graduate with their MD/MBA or DO/MBA are less likely to pursue residency, and usually enter one of the career paths that I listed formerly. I have watched podcasts with many doctors who either didn't go to residency, or didn't finish residency and instead end up pursuing careers in medical technology and their lives change drastically. Their work hours are more favorable, they develop things that could help a large number of people, and they make not only more than they would in residency but sometimes more than their potential attending salaries. They all credit their success in their medical innovations to what they learned in medical school so to respond prematurely to a comment I am sure I might see, no I can't just go to MBA school alone because I wouldn't have that medical knowledge.

So I am wondering if this is a viable option, to go to medical school and then to probably pursue a career in some sort of biotech, without doing residency or a typical residency. What's interesting is that these doctors that I have mentioned still practice clinically without having finished a residency so I think that would be the best of both worlds.

I would love if anyone knows anyone who has done a similar path or knows of anyone who has done something like what I mentioned, open to any advice or feedback or maybe some information that I didn't know. I am just a lowly premed so I might be missing something and if I am sorry in advance.

A doctor can't practice clinically without a medical license. You can't determine treatment plans, examine patients, etc without a residency.

Most jobs in tech aren't going to pay you like an attending, and there's more efficient ways to get there than going to medical school, since a MD doesn't carry much weight in research without at least a medical license or second degree in tow. To make it big in tech, you're probably looking at hours similar to residency in most promising startups if you know anything about startup culture.

With regard to 80 hour weeks, it depends on the field. Plenty of fields won't work you to death during residency, and even within some fields there are less demanding programs. You could always just focus on getting the intern year over with so you could use that to broaden your prospects (completing a second year gives you practice rights in almost every state, while an intern year gives you licensure options in a handful).

My take is that medicine is a stupid route to take if you want to do tech though. A focused degree in your field of interest followed by a high- ranking MBA would go much further.

 

[Mad Jack]

Yes you make an amazing point but the thing is that if I were to go into those fields I wouldn't be doing the same thing that an MD/DO in those fields would be doing. For example I couldn't be a CMO without an MD/DO degree

I've never met a CMO that didn't complete residency, but rarely in pharmaceutical applications you might have someone carrying that or a similar title that didn't finish residency. However, at the very least a CMO in clinical trials is expected to have a medical license, which you need 1-3 years of training to get, depending on the state

 

[Mad Jack]

To expend on what other people have said, if you are sure you will hate residency, feel like you have no life, won’t be able to have relationships, will throw away your youth, etc etc…why would medical school be any different? It isn’t like we are working 15 hours a week and then surfing the rest of the week during medical school. Even preclinical years aren’t as cush as a generic comp sci job in terms of lifestyle. You will be working similar hours to residency during M3 depending on the rotation. Not saying it will be as difficult as residency, but if you think residency will break you, that’s fine, it’s not for everyone…but that also means medical school isn’t for you.

While preclinical wasn't as hard as residency, I certainly put in as many hours. 7 AM to 9 PM almost every weekday, 10 AM to 3 PM every weekend, roughly. I was a bit older, and medicine didn't play too my strengths, but it was a *lot* of work, especially with my school's block style of testing, which basically gave us two or three weeks to chill and relax followed by cramming for a month or so to survive.

 

[Faha]

This is very interesting, I wasn't really aware about being able to receive a medical license after only one year of residency. If possible could expand a little more or this and what one would be able to do. I'm also interested in family medicine (because I like the idea of being a generalist, not having crazy circadian rhythm shifts like EM, and the long term relationships with patients), but from what I've heard FM/IM have the must brutal residencies, only residencies that I've seen that are worse would be surgical stuff.

Family Medicine residencies are not brutal. Some are more oriented to outpatient clinical medicine and those hours are 8 to 5. You would need to evaluate each program to see which are more oriented to outpatient medicine and electives as opposed to those that have many hospital based rotations with long hours and night call. If you have a medical license your options for practicing medicine are limited. Examples would be physicians who do medical screening exams for psychiatric facilities, sports medicine (not for the pros !). Those spots are limited. However, the pharmaceutical industry, teaching and research would have many more opportunities.

 

[nimbus]

Anesthesia residency wasn’t that bad. I imagine a McKinsey analyst or associate would have similar or worse hours and their own set of BS.

 

[YCAGA]

Anesthesia residency wasn’t that bad. I imagine a McKinsey analyst or associate would have similar or worse hours and their own set of BS.

But I was told by boomer attendings that if I wanted to really make money I should just go into finance or law and make $500k at 28 while working 35hours/week with two hour business lunches. Are you saying they didn't know what they are talking about? And that top finance and law guys/girls are working 60-80 hours/week in bad conditions for at least as long as we are in residency? 😳

Sarcasm aside, I think OP is just anxious from reading too much doom and gloom on the internet about residency.

 

[piii]

If you like learning and studying medicine and don’t want to slave away with a crappy lifestyle, then do a transition year and radiology. Radiology residents work 40-50 hrs a week plus some studying, and the field really lends itself to entrepreneurship, engineering, data science, etc. Rads attendings work 50 hrs a week, 10 weeks of vacation, and make over $400k per year. Or pursue derm, ophthalmology, or other fields with nice hours.

 

[YCAGA]

If you like learning and studying medicine and don’t want to slave away with a crappy lifestyle, then do a transition year and radiology. Radiology residents work 40-50 hrs a week plus some studying, and the field really lends itself to entrepreneurship, engineering, data science, etc. Rads attendings work 50 hrs a week, 10 weeks of vacation, and make over $400k per year. Or pursue derm, ophthalmology, or other fields with nice hours.

Are you saying radiology residents work less than attendings (40-50 vs 50)? I think radiology residents are still working+studying 60 hours a week which isn’t nothing. It sounds like OP thinks 60 hour/week lifestyle will prevent them from having friends or any hobbies outside of medicine. Not true in my opinion, but that is what their opinion is so radiology might not be “good enough” for them. Sad but maybe true.

 

[blub1212]

My worst day of residency was still by far better than my best day in medical school. Doesn't make sense to do medical school but not residency if you are worried that residency will suck. You can still get jobs in all the sectors you mentioned without going to medical school

 

[babagandu2424]

I’m sure you were expecting mostly negative replies as most people here likely aren’t familiar with the other side of the healthcare world. Though, take it from someone who is currently an advanced degree candidate, and who will likely transition into biotech ER, and VC down the line, it is absolutely a pathway for you. It requires extensive networking, but an MD is very sought after in the right finance roles (i.e., life sci shops, consulting, bus dev, banking/ER/VC/HF, etc.).

Something to remember is that this pathway is very non-trad and it will more so be a relatively difficult journey and one that will require a more nuanced career path.

 

[adiplayer]

Ok before I get shut down immediately hear me out, I am very familiar with the "don't go to medical school if you don't want to practice medicine" line. The thing is that I do want to practice medicine, but after familiarizing myself with what residency truly is I decided that I need to be honest with myself, is this the right path for me? I love helping people, I love the science behind medicine, but I don't like suffering. Working 80+ hours a week while being sleep deprived for YEARS is a major turn-off for me. From what I've gathered practically everyone who has completed a residency has said that they were only able to do it through pure ignorance, if they had known about what they were in store for or if they had to do it again they wouldn't dare.

I don't want to semi-blindly follow that same path out of naivety and endure the same faith of burnout, anti-depression meds, sleep deprivation, sacrificing YEARS of your life and valuable memories/experiences, losing amazing relationships with friends, family, and loved ones, etc. I believe most premeds don't fully understand what they're getting into and by the time they do, they are 100k or more in debt and are essentially forced to go down this path. Like I can't stress the "fully" enough, yea they know that med school is going to be hard, residency is going to be harder, but they don't FULLY understand until they experience it.

People tend to say that this is something you should only do if there is nothing else you can see yourself doing. I agree with that advice, I have contemplated heavily on other career paths such as physical therapy, PA, nonclinical careers, etc, and out of all of them, I can't see myself happy if I never got my MD or DO.

So anyway to get to the point, I do want to get either an MD or DO, I know medical school will be very rough but I love learning and I know it will be at least decently manageable. However, instead of going down the path of residency and then becoming an attending, I have been considering getting an MD/MBA and then exploring a career in biotech, pharm, R&D, VC, Consulting, etc. Yes I know that you don't need an MD to do all that but I believe that the knowledge that you gain from medical school will be very applicable to those endeavors.

I have read a handful of articles that show how more and more people who graduate with their MD/MBA or DO/MBA are less likely to pursue residency, and usually enter one of the career paths that I listed formerly. I have watched podcasts with many doctors who either didn't go to residency, or didn't finish residency and instead end up pursuing careers in medical technology and their lives change drastically. Their work hours are more favorable, they develop things that could help a large number of people, and they make not only more than they would in residency but sometimes more than their potential attending salaries. They all credit their success in their medical innovations to what they learned in medical school so to respond prematurely to a comment I am sure I might see, no I can't just go to MBA school alone because I wouldn't have that medical knowledge.

So I am wondering if this is a viable option, to go to medical school and then to probably pursue a career in some sort of biotech, without doing residency or a typical residency. What's interesting is that these doctors that I have mentioned still practice clinically without having finished a residency so I think that would be the best of both worlds.

I would love if anyone knows anyone who has done a similar path or knows of anyone who has done something like what I mentioned, open to any advice or feedback or maybe some information that I didn't know. I am just a lowly premed so I might be missing something and if I am sorry in advance.

Feel free to message me away from the negativity that likely lies above.

 

[YCAGA]

I’m sure you were expecting mostly negative replies as most people here likely aren’t familiar with the other side of the healthcare world. Though, take it from someone who is currently an advanced degree candidate, and who will likely transition into biotech ER, and VC down the line, it is absolutely a pathway for you. It requires extensive networking, but an MD is very sought after in the right finance roles (i.e., life sci shops, consulting, bus dev, banking/ER/VC/HF, etc.).

Something to remember is that this pathway is very non-trad and it will more so be a relatively difficult journey and one that will require a more nuanced career path.

An MD without a residency or even a medical license is very sought after? Also VC and finance aren’t exactly lifestyle gigs which is what OP wants. I have a hard time believing people in those fields have the lifestyle flexibility that an attending in certain specialities does.

 

[Dr. Daliah]

I was in med school and residency when we had back to back 36 hours shifts. I had a blast in residency and even moonlighted on the rare weekends off. But learned once I left schooling, long hours came with any industry, children, older family member care commitments. So if you will work long hours anyway in life, and will age and turn 40 one day (as the years come for all of us), make sure you are in a position where you are doing what you want and will make you happy. The three years of residency post med school did not take away my youth. Time does that, and most jobs work your tail off, so don't avoid a career in medicine to avoid long hours as most jobs will expect you put in your time anyway.

 

[francois]

Ok before I get shut down immediately hear me out, I am very familiar with the "don't go to medical school if you don't want to practice medicine" line. The thing is that I do want to practice medicine, but after familiarizing myself with what residency truly is I decided that I need to be honest with myself, is this the right path for me? I love helping people, I love the science behind medicine, but I don't like suffering. Working 80+ hours a week while being sleep deprived for YEARS is a major turn-off for me. From what I've gathered practically everyone who has completed a residency has said that they were only able to do it through pure ignorance, if they had known about what they were in store for or if they had to do it again they wouldn't dare.

I don't want to semi-blindly follow that same path out of naivety and endure the same faith of burnout, anti-depression meds, sleep deprivation, sacrificing YEARS of your life and valuable memories/experiences, losing amazing relationships with friends, family, and loved ones, etc. I believe most premeds don't fully understand what they're getting into and by the time they do, they are 100k or more in debt and are essentially forced to go down this path. Like I can't stress the "fully" enough, yea they know that med school is going to be hard, residency is going to be harder, but they don't FULLY understand until they experience it.

People tend to say that this is something you should only do if there is nothing else you can see yourself doing. I agree with that advice, I have contemplated heavily on other career paths such as physical therapy, PA, nonclinical careers, etc, and out of all of them, I can't see myself happy if I never got my MD or DO.

So anyway to get to the point, I do want to get either an MD or DO, I know medical school will be very rough but I love learning and I know it will be at least decently manageable. However, instead of going down the path of residency and then becoming an attending, I have been considering getting an MD/MBA and then exploring a career in biotech, pharm, R&D, VC, Consulting, etc. Yes I know that you don't need an MD to do all that but I believe that the knowledge that you gain from medical school will be very applicable to those endeavors.

I have read a handful of articles that show how more and more people who graduate with their MD/MBA or DO/MBA are less likely to pursue residency, and usually enter one of the career paths that I listed formerly. I have watched podcasts with many doctors who either didn't go to residency, or didn't finish residency and instead end up pursuing careers in medical technology and their lives change drastically. Their work hours are more favorable, they develop things that could help a large number of people, and they make not only more than they would in residency but sometimes more than their potential attending salaries. They all credit their success in their medical innovations to what they learned in medical school so to respond prematurely to a comment I am sure I might see, no I can't just go to MBA school alone because I wouldn't have that medical knowledge.

So I am wondering if this is a viable option, to go to medical school and then to probably pursue a career in some sort of biotech, without doing residency or a typical residency. What's interesting is that these doctors that I have mentioned still practice clinically without having finished a residency so I think that would be the best of both worlds.

I would love if anyone knows anyone who has done a similar path or knows of anyone who has done something like what I mentioned, open to any advice or feedback or maybe some information that I didn't know. I am just a lowly premed so I might be missing something and if I am sorry in advance.

I loved residency. Probably some of the best years of my career in medicine. Yes, it is true that it is a lot of hard work but for me it was very satisfying. You should never fear hard work because if you do then your philosophy is broken.

 

[32valveMD]

One of the most important things not stated yet is that we have a huge doctor shortage in this country and every seat in med school should be for someone who is going to practice clinical medicine in some capacity. If you are afraid of working hard, don’t go into medicine. The health of your patients requires nothing less than hard work. I’m not saying it’s gotta all be ridiculous hours and sacrifice, but there is always a need to do more for your patients. If you don’t want to make that sacrifice but are intrigued by science etc, go the educational route of a masters / PhD and then get your MBA if that’s your jam. Willfully applying to medical school with no intention of clinical practice is a waste of valuable and limited resources and poor use of your own time.