$$$is it worth it$$$

[Svande8952]

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People are so serious in this forum. Doesn't anyone have a sense of humor? My apologies to all of the un-fun eye and foot people.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

Wow, someone is insecure about his/her career choice. I stand by what I said. Podiatrists sell orthotics with dubious health effects/benefits. Similarly opomotrists just sell glasses and contacts all day. Don't act so self important "doc"

Lol I'm not insecure at all. Dentists sell tooth brushes and teeth whitening ...

Also, the vast majority of revenue in a pod clinic is NOT orthotics.

I love dentistry, so I don't want to sound condescending when I say this, but podiatry is more of a medical specialty than dentistry. At my future school the med school and DPM school share 90% of the same classes in the first two years. We get full body cadavers, etc etc. again, I'm not saying that to come down on dentistry, but rather to illustrate podiatry to you. Many people think podiatry should be absorbed by medicine, but few make the same case for dentistry because you are so specialized.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

People are so serious in this forum. Doesn't anyone have a sense of humor? My apologies to all of the un-fun eye and foot people.

I guess I didn't see the humor when you said, "podiatry is a joke."

 

[Surive123]

Lol I'm not insecure at all. Dentists sell tooth brushes and teeth whitening ...

Also, the vast majority of revenue in a pod clinic is NOT orthotics.

I love dentistry, so I don't want to sound condescending when I say this, but podiatry is more of a medical specialty than dentistry. At my future school the med school and DPM school share 90% of the same classes in the first two years. We get full body cadavers, etc etc. again, I'm not saying that to come down on dentistry, but rather to illustrate podiatry to you. Many people think podiatry should be absorbed by medicine, but few make the same case for dentistry because you are so specialized.

The dental schools I have interviewed at use full cadavers, also a good majority of the classes the first 2 years are shared with medical students.

 

[Svande8952]

I guess I didn't see the humor when you said, "podiatry is a joke."

It's funny because it is obviously not true, but now that I've had to explain it is completely lost. I should have known better with this crowd.

 

[Zbtb7]

Lol I'm not insecure at all. Dentists sell tooth brushes and teeth whitening ...

Also, the vast majority of revenue in a pod clinic is NOT orthotics.

I love dentistry, so I don't want to sound condescending when I say this, but podiatry is more of a medical specialty than dentistry. At my future school the med school and DPM school share 90% of the same classes in the first two years. We get full body cadavers, etc etc. again, I'm not saying that to come down on dentistry, but rather to illustrate podiatry to you. Many people think podiatry should be absorbed by medicine, but few make the same case for dentistry because you are so specialized.

I defended podiatry when a predent made baseless remarks about the profession. Now that I've read this statement, I am forced to play devil's advocate.

I too believe podiatry should be absorbed by medicine. Everything that a podiatrist does can be done by primary care physicians and orthopods. The same cannot be said of dentistry: we do not share a scope of practice with medicine (exceptions being in the realm of oral surgery).

I would argue that dentistry is more of a medical specialty than podiatry. The advancements podiatry as a profession has made in the past few decades was due to turf taken from medicine. If you merged dentistry, podiatry, and medicine and sent everyone through the med school pipeline, it would be perfectly reasonable for a student to specialize in dentistry. Not so for podiatry-everything you do is covered by training for PCPs and orthopedic surgeons.

 

[NDPitch]

A class war on med vs pod vs dent has nothing to do with whether or not dentistry is worth the crazy amount of money we must pay, which is what this thread was discussing. Haha

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

I defended podiatry when a predent made baseless remarks about the profession. Now that I've read this statement, I am forced to play devil's advocate.

I too believe podiatry should be absorbed by medicine. Everything that a podiatrist does can be done by primary care physicians and orthopods. The same cannot be said of dentistry: we do not share a scope of practice with medicine (exceptions being in the realm of oral surgery).

I would argue that dentistry is more of a medical specialty than podiatry. The advancements podiatry as a profession has made in the past few decades was due to turf taken from medicine. If you merged dentistry, podiatry, and medicine and sent everyone through the med school pipeline, it would be perfectly reasonable for a student to specialize in dentistry. Not so for podiatry-everything you do is covered by training for PCPs and orthopedic surgeons.

I'm not arguing that dentistry is more of a "specialty" than podiatry, but rather the scope of podiatry aligns itself more closely to what MD/DOs do rather than what DDS/DMDs do. I don't really think anyone argues differently - that's why dentistry has their own school - because it is so much different than what most MD/DOs do. Podiatry COULD be absorbed by medicine and farmed out to plenty of different specialties, but that just validates that the practicing podiatrist is practicing "medicine" more closely than what a dentist is.

Again, I'm not saying dentistry<podiatry=medicine. I'm saying that the work of a pod aligns more closely with an MD/DO than the work of a dentist. I think perhaps when i said it was more of a "medical specialty" than dentistry, you focused on the "specialty" part whereas I focused on the "medical" part.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

The dental schools I have interviewed at use full cadavers, also a good majority of the classes the first 2 years are shared with medical students.

Well, I guess I meant full anatomy - not just having the body sitting there. I don't think ALL dental schools give you a full body, and I know that not all (or even most?) will cover the extremities/below the abdomen in gross anatomy.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but it is annoying when people have incorrect perceptions of my future career.

 

[NDPitch]

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but it is annoying when people have incorrect perceptions of my future career.

You're going to get that in every forum on SDN. If I strolled over to the pre-med forums and made a topic saying that "dentists are doctors, too!" I'd get laughed at. They'd probably also say the same thing about podiatrists. Similarly, if a med student came into the pre-dent forums and said "medicine is so much better, why do you want to look at teeth all the time", they would be laughed at by the pre-dents.

Choose the career you want and stick to it, knowing it's what YOU are happy with. You can spend your entire life trying to convince other people that what you do is noble and great, but in the end it's your satisfaction that matters. Don't let the perceptions of others ever change that. I personally congratulate you for pursuing podiatry. From the research I've done, it sounds like a great career.

 

[LaFleur]

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but it is annoying when people have incorrect perceptions of my future career.

How did you even come across this? Do you go searching for these kinds of conversations or did you come across it accidentally? Because if you searched for it, that'd be kind of weird.

I couldn't agree more with what NDPitch said. You're going to encounter this in every forum on SDN. I've certainly encountered it just strolling around, but I don't stop to argue/derail the thread each and every time. I'm confident enough in my choice that I honestly don't care what anyone else says and internet arguments = not worth my time.

Good luck!

 

[pnmlhn]

Well, I guess I meant full anatomy - not just having the body sitting there. I don't think ALL dental schools give you a full body, and I know that not all (or even most?) will cover the extremities/below the abdomen in gross anatomy.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but it is annoying when people have incorrect perceptions of my future career.

All the schools I have interviewed at teach you the whole body with extremities your first couple months and if they have a medical school you are in class with those students.

 

[LaFleur]

All the schools I have interviewed at teach you the whole body with extremities your first couple months and if they have a medical school you are in class with those students.

Where have you interviewed? I was always wondering which schools put you in class with med students...

 

[Surive123]

Well, I guess I meant full anatomy - not just having the body sitting there. I don't think ALL dental schools give you a full body, and I know that not all (or even most?) will cover the extremities/below the abdomen in gross anatomy.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but it is annoying when people have incorrect perceptions of my future career.

Yeah, no. Sorry. You are incorrect.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

NDPitch and LaFleur:

I know they pop up all the time - I see them all the time. However, it makes me feel all warm inside that I may have influenced some young pre-dent/med/vet/pharm/opt guy that thinks pod is a ridiculous career choice and the laughingstock of medicine that it this actually not true! Rarely do dentists/physicians/pods ever argue about who is better IRL (except the occasional ortho/podiatry turf war), because IRL dentists and MD/DOs recognize its dumb to say pods are a joke because they provide a valuable service. I just like to point out to these pre-abc people that they are mistaken and that pod is important. Realistically, my posts on this subject are more for the lurkers who read things with more rational thought than we posters who are always quick to flame.

So while I appreciate your sympathy, I am well aware the "pods are jokes" posts will continue into the foreseeable future, it won't matter what forum I'm on, but I'll keep challenging the posts in the hope that all the misinformed posters learn something about medicine/podiatry.

To get this thread back on topic:

Why not do an HPSP through the military to pay for school? If you want to help people, who better to help than the military men/women risking their lives for us right now!

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

Yeah, no. Sorry. You are incorrect.

I just read some threads on this topic that posters claimed their gross anatomy was no where near as rigorous as med students and many don't go below abdomen or thigh. This is really neither here nor there for this thread, but I guess I was misinformed by these threads if dental school anatomy = medical school anatomy.

 

[UCSFx2017]

Who cares? I'd like to practice dentistry and don't have a fetish w/ feet. You like practicing podiatry and probably think mouths are disgusting like most people. We're both integral to public healthcare. To each his own. What's involved in each curriculum is trivial. Measuring each curriculum with medical school as a standard is also baseless.

 

[Zbtb7]

Who cares? I'd like to practice dentistry and don't have a fetish w/ feet. You like practicing podiatry and probably think mouths are disgusting like most people. We're both integral to public healthcare. To each his own. What's involved in each curriculum is trivial.

Every profession is integral to public healthcare... some are just more integral than others. 🙄

 

[free99]

Should replace "than talking about politics on facebook" to "than debating podiatry vs. dentistry on sdn" --- http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/things-that-are-worse-than-people-on-facebook-talk

 

[HawkJ2010]

Podiatry, eh?

 

[gethscout]

brb no state income tax
brb great schools (universities)
brb amazing rates on homes
brb medicaid reimbursement one of the highest in the country
brb little to no snow

brb brb

 

[dentalWorks]

Supposedly Obama is passing a law that eliminates your loans after you pay so much on them.

maybe he'll pass this law today... but in 4 years when republicans take office (around the time we graduate dentistry), this law gets toss'd aside and we are back to 7.9% interest on 400k loans.

make no mistake about it, unless you have a close family member whos been a dentist for a long time now and is/are willing to hire you at a good salary, many of us will have the average lifestyle of a middle household family for AT LEAST 5-15 years after graduation....

What makes it worse is, even if you are brave and smart enough to buy into a practice soon after dental school (assuming this established practice is valued at 600k+), there isn't a single bank in USA today thats going to fork over that kinda cash knowing you have so much debt behind you and you without a 800-score cosigner (those days are long gone).

Its a visions cycle. Its very difficult make the big $$$ in dentistry without owning private practice (or being a partner in one) so you can pay off the loans fast enough.... however, you can't buy into a practice because no bank will loan you that much knowing how much debt ur currently under.

 

[NDPitch]

Supposedly Obama is passing a law that eliminates your loans after you pay so much on them.

Also don't forget that "eliminate" means fork the bill over to the tax payers. The debt just doesn't disappear. And asking the federal reserve to just print more money to pay for it doesn't work, either.

Also, speaking of debt, here's a little factoid. Did you know that all of the Earth's gold, silver, and platinum, INCLUDING what has yet to be mined, is worth about 15 trillion dollars? That's over a trillion dollars short of our current national debt. Yay government.

 

[Silent Cool]

Reality Posted by Silent Cool in the Dental Forum:

So I just emailed a dentist on dentaltown. These were my questions and the response I got:

Question:

"In the thread, you posted what Midwestern U. said were the income averages for GP and Specialist, but you said each was BS. Would you comment a little on that? Also, do you think it would be reasonable to attend a school like BU or NYU, where the graduating loan balance would be $550K+? Also, what is a reasonable income for a GP who owns the practice?"


Response:

The statistics that Midwestern University were from around 2006 if I remember correctly. Incomes have dropped 15% at least since then due to the recession. Were those statistics correct in the first place? That is questionable. Those incomes would be for a doctor that owned his own practice. These days fewer and fewer docs are looking to own thier practice due to the time committment and stress. That is fine but your income will always be lower if you are not the owner. I don't know if those stats also considered associates and doctors that practiced part time. Most docs I know that are making 250k or more are in their late 40s and 50s. It takes awhile to build a practice that allows that amount of income. What I don't like is that schools make it sound like those stats are a starting salary. Not even close.
When I got out in 2006, the average for a GP associate was 80-100k. Since then, it has dropped. Probably closer to 80k now due to the recession. It will get better but many associates can only find part time work. Now imagine having 550k in loans and making 80-100k a year. That is absurdity. You have to remember, to get to that 200k plus level it may take 10 years or more. You have to be an owner to make that kind of money. In order to be an owner, you need to buy or start a practice. That's MORE debt.
I think the turning point of student debt versus dentistry is probably about 250k in student loan debt. My partner and I talk about this all the time and agree that if you have more than this in student loan debt, it's not worth it. That's another mortgage you're paying. 550K in student loans? No way. Don't even consider it. You end up with a hire net worth being a plumber, trust me.
Another thing about dental specialties... they don't make as much as you may think. When the economy goes through it's cycles of recession, specialties get hit the hardest. Plus, competition among specialists is very competititive. For several years, students thought that going into a specialty was a sure thing to a higher income, thus more applicants lead to a glut of specialists out there... I have 4-5 endodontists within a mile of me. There really is only a need for 1 or 2.
In a nutshell, there is no sure thing anymore in dentistry. Be careful what you read on DT as people like to brag about how much they make to make themselves appear successful. For each guy that brags that he's making over 300k a year (if you can believe him), there's 100 docs not posting that make 120k. This is a pretty good gig if you can keep your student loan debt low. If not, consider another profession until the student loan bubble bursts.
To answer your last question, for a GP that owns his own practice and all loans are paid off, a reasonable take home would be 150-250k. The caveat is that this doctor is usually in his late 40s, early 50s and his practice has been paid for and has been growing for 10 plus years. This is where you make the most and your income usually plateaus (top of the bell curve). For a new practice owner, a reasonable take home is 0k-150k.
Hope this helps.

Thanks for posting. Here is the rest of the conversation:



DT Poster:

Stock,
It sounds like you have a pretty good idea about the state of dentistry. I'm sure what I'm telling you is the same as what your friends are telling you. How much are they making? Probably not as much as they were told they were.
The for profit schools are doing nothing but taking advantage of students. If federally backed student loans disappeared, those schools would collapse.
I practice in Chicago.


ME:

Out of curiosity, how much debt do you think would be reasonable for endo, ortho, or pedo? 500K? A lot of these specialty programs charge tuition, too. So if someone came out with 400K loans, then added two years of specialty training, they would be looking at 700k total debt. Is that just absurd? And that's without practice ownership. Honestly, I just don't know what to think, because for so long dentistry has been a (financially) good field--a good investment--but that is bonkers. My parents' house doesn't even cost that much.


DT Poster:

I would not got to a specialty residency that charged tuition. Many of them will pay you a stipend (roughly 30k a year) to attend. Those would be the only ones I would consider. Dentistry is about 5-10 years from medicine in regards to making a living and lifestyle. There is no more advantage of being a dentist over an MD. It can still provide a good income and lifestyle but it is by no means a cakewalk. If you can't get through school cheap, it's not worth it at this time. And now that Obama won, nobody really knows how Obamacare will affect dentistry if at all.

 

[TOMS90]

I was crackin up the whole time while reading this thread. The nerdiness level showcased by sdn members on this thread is outstanding.

 

[Silent Cool]

I just read some threads on this topic that posters claimed their gross anatomy was no where near as rigorous as med students and many don't go below abdomen or thigh. This is really neither here nor there for this thread, but I guess I was misinformed by these threads if dental school anatomy = medical school anatomy.

MaxMN,

In general, med school anatomy is much more in-depth than dent school anatomy. The exception is at the few schools at which the med/dent students take the same course. Most schools, however, have a separate anatomy section/course for dent students, and it is fairly cursory (by comparison).

 

[adentistsomeday]

At my school dental gross anatomy is shared with opto students, while the meds have their own which is just ours on steroids.... ie, our practicals are multiple choice, theirs require you to answer background questions, we all share the same professors, but have different slides and tests. . .

Is dentistry still worth it? Sure if you love dentistry, same goes for all the other medical professions.

I have plenty of new grad friends that average 135k take home after taxes.... some are struggling about paying 30k a year in loans, others are happily paying them down... its all about perspective and priorities if you think about it.

There's people paying 1600 a month for a really nice studio, while others rent out a familys garage at 250, who's going to be better off, who knows..... all about your business skills later IMHO....

Anyways to the OP, I'm jealous of your position! I would go for it in a heartbeat, of course I can only speak for myself.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

MaxMN,

In general, med school anatomy is much more in-depth than dent school anatomy. The exception is at the few schools at which the med/dent students take the same course. Most schools, however, have a separate anatomy section/course for dent students, and it is fairly cursory (by comparison).

At my school dental gross anatomy is shared with opto students, while the meds have their own which is just ours on steroids.... ie, our practicals are multiple choice, theirs require you to answer background questions, we all share the same professors, but have different slides and tests. . .

Finally someone agrees with my research!!



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