Is it worth it?

[Quester]

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Hey guys,

Lately I've been seeing a lot of threads on choosing which schools to attend, and one thing I've noticed people talk about is alumni connection and the school name.

Seriously, how important is it to go to a more established school? I thought we should just go where it's a "better fit". How does school name play a role in our career?

If the school name is so important, is that worth coughing up extra $20 000+ per year?

 

[coolingglasses]

Hey guys,

Lately I've been seeing a lot of threads on choosing which schools to attend, and one thing I've noticed people talk about is alumni connection and the school name.

Seriously, how important is it to go to a more established school? I thought we should just go where it's a "better fit". How does school name play a role in our career?

If the school name is so important, is that worth coughing up extra $20 000+ per year?

I'm starting to think rotation sites are pretty important. I agree with best fit though, otherwise.

Or in my case, "where your folks tell you to go because they're paying"

 

[WildEMDoc]

I think it depends a lot on what value most in your education. I don't think any school will really hold you back from what you want to do because it is new vs old. If you have drive as a student and are willing to go above and beyond you can do anything from any school. I do think however it is sometimes marginally easier to do so from an established school, although I have nothing to support that as true.

I did however chose KCOM partially because of the reputation however I also did feel very comfortable at the school. Although one of the reasons I am so comfortable with choosing KCOM is because of the reputation.

I also think rotation site security and quality are really important for me, which contributed to my choice also.

 

[MedPR]

Hey guys,

Lately I've been seeing a lot of threads on choosing which schools to attend, and one thing I've noticed people talk about is alumni connection and the school name.

Seriously, how important is it to go to a more established school? I thought we should just go where it's a "better fit". How does school name play a role in our career?

If the school name is so important, is that worth coughing up extra $20 000+ per year?

Solid rotations, reputation, and large(r) alumni network = objective things that will help you in your career.

"Better fit" = subjective thing based on your very limited experience with each school.

You be the judge.

 

[surgeryDO]

Solid rotations, reputation, and large(r) alumni network = objective things that will help you in your career.

"Better fit" = subjective thing based on your very limited experience with each school.

You be the judge.

👍
Nailed it

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[azide10]

Solid rotations, reputation, and large(r) alumni network = objective things that will help you in your career.

"Better fit" = subjective thing based on your very limited experience with each school.

You be the judge.

Interesting way of viewing things. I always viewed it as "better fit" meaning culmination of all the objective things the school has to offer. In other words a pros and cons list, sure with some subjective things in there but if they are important to someone then they are important. I figured most people threw out the initial "fluffy" feeling they get.

Reputation is pretty subjective from differing perspectives and from what I understand geographic regions, hardly an objective thing.
Solids rotations aren't as objective as they used to be, at least I wouldn't think so. At some schools maybe the thought of losing certain rotations is doom and gloom but at others it's a very real possibility and those rotations you see now won't necessarily be there when the time comes.

 

[Quester]

So you guys are willing to pay extra $20 000+/ year for the name?

 

[Ravizzle]

So you guys are willing to pay extra $20 000+/ year for the name?

If you think that school will give u better chance to succeed then why not.

If it's purely based on name, and u feel you would be fine at the cheaper school then save ur money.

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[angldrps]

So you guys are willing to pay extra $20 000+/ year for the name?

I personally would not. Yes, the more established schools may provide you with opportunities that will probably make it easier for you to achieve a certain goal, but if a student at a lower tier school just puts in the extra work, they are capable of achieving the same, if not better. And if I can save myself years of debt on the way then this extra work is well worth it.

 

[HalfListic]

Solid rotations, reputation, and large(r) alumni network = objective things that will help you in your career.

"Better fit" = subjective thing based on your very limited experience with each school.

You be the judge.

...we're talking DO schools here. Reputation is very subjective (maybe even pointless), and its also very difficult to distinguish between some rotation sites schools have, aside from amazing or poor. Connections are good...if they are connected with something you end up being interested in.

But, both old and new schools ALL have connections, so you have to take each school as you get accepted to them and compare.

Id say, most 90%+, of the DO schools will get you where you need to go as well as the others (meaning, its up to you to get the grades and board scores) and so "fit" becomes one of the most important factors.

Fit include: location, curriculum style, maybe student body/class size, and other things you want.


More important for your career will be your Residency. And it looks like most DO schools are lumped together by ACGME residencies, so it just doesn't matter that much.

So you guys are willing to pay extra $20 000+/ year for the name?

This would be a waste IMO. There is no Harvard or Hopkins in the DO world. Looks at the resources, location and curriculum of each school, and see if it matches to your wants.

 

[MedPR]

Interesting way of viewing things. I always viewed it as "better fit" meaning culmination of all the objective things the school has to offer. In other words a pros and cons list, sure with some subjective things in there but if they are important to someone then they are important. I figured most people threw out the initial "fluffy" feeling they get.

Reputation is pretty subjective from differing perspectives and from what I understand geographic regions, hardly an objective thing.
Solids rotations aren't as objective as they used to be, at least I wouldn't think so. At some schools maybe the thought of losing certain rotations is doom and gloom but at others it's a very real possibility and those rotations you see now won't necessarily be there when the time comes.

The "fluffy" feeling you speak of is my definition of how well I would fit at that place. Basically how I feel when I first walk into the school, how I feel throughout the day, and how I feel after it's all over.

So you guys are willing to pay extra $20 000+/ year for the name?

Not just the name, but also what tangible things the school has to offer over another. For example, DMU is a big name, but if DMU's tuition were $55k like CCOM, I wouldn't even consider attending. However, I would happily pay CCOM $55k/yr.

...we're talking DO schools here. Reputation is very subjective (maybe even pointless), and its also very difficult to distinguish between some rotation sites schools have, aside from amazing or poor. Connections are good...if they are connected with something you end up being interested in.

But, both old and new schools ALL have connections, so you have to take each school as you get accepted to them and compare.

Id say, most 90%+, of the DO schools will get you where you need to go as well as the others (meaning, its up to you to get the grades and board scores) and so "fit" becomes one of the most important factors.

Fit include: location, curriculum style, maybe student body/class size, and other things you want.


More important for your career will be your Residency. And it looks like most DO schools are lumped together by ACGME residencies, so it just doesn't matter that much.


This would be a waste IMO. There is no Harvard or Hopkins in the DO world. Looks at the resources, location and curriculum of each school, and see if it matches to your wants.

Though I disagree, for the sake of argument I'll go along with you and say that reputation/connections don't matter much. However, fit doesn't matter at all in terms of your success as a physician. A little help is better than no help.

 

[m2k]

I think you'll get actual training in your specific area during residency - I'm not saying med school is not important.. but you can study for it. If you get good score and get into good residency program... you'll be well served.

In the mean time pick the school which will be less stressful and you feel comfortable in.

 

[MedPR]

I think you'll get actual training in your specific area during residency - I'm not saying med school is not important.. but you can study for it. If you get good score and get into good residency program... you'll be well served.

In the mean time pick the school which will be less stressful and you feel comfortable in.

I personally would be constantly stressed if I attended a school with a poor rep.. Like kycom.

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[Quester]

Here's the thing that's kinda bugging me. Why are some med students hinting that they should've gone to a school with the "name" these days? It makes me think twice about my decision.

But thanks for all your comments!

 

[MedPR]

Here's the thing that's kinda bugging me. Why are some med students hinting that they should've gone to a school with the "name" these days? It makes me think twice about my decision.

But thanks for all your comments!

What med students told you that? The general belief on SDN is go to the cheapest school you can.

 

[felix2929]

Nevermind, you answered it on the other thread. CCOM does seem to have great rotation opportunities though according to my friends at Rush they also have lots of Carribean students rotating with them too in Chicago. I'm just not sure I can justify the cost of CCOM vs. DMU just for rotation sites. Decisions

 

[Dmr6186]

Nevermind, you answered it on the other thread. CCOM does seem to have great rotation opportunities though according to my friends at Rush they also have lots of Carribean students rotating with them too in Chicago. I'm just not sure I can justify the cost of CCOM vs. DMU just for rotation sites. Decisions

If I'm incorrect here I'm sure somebody will jump in, but rotations are not only valuable for learning how to act like a doctor, they are also valuable because you can "audition" rotate and match into a residency you may want to be at after graduation.

 

[felix2929]

No I think you are right on about that. Though with your elective time you can schedule those auditions anywhere that will take you and this is pretty universal amongst all schools. The reason I have a hard time factoring the rotations into the decision is because no school (except maybe KCOM and only because I am from St. Louis and knew the names of the hospitals) gave you real specifics about the rotation sites. Yes CCOM gave you a list of hospital affiliates but they didn't say how many students get to go to Cook County per say. Maybe they only have 10 spots there? I dont know. This has been an area of confusion for me.

 

[docmayer]

Yes, I believe it is. At least I hope it is seeing as I am paying an extra 80k to attend MSUCOM (most likely) over any other school. If it has a reputation, you will be better recognized, no doubt about it. If the school has many solid base hospitals with residency programs there, yes, that is also beneficial. Not to mention you get to see more pathology with schools that have better rotation sites. Seeing as we are disadvantaged to begin with, I feel it is important to factor in a schools reputation and clinical training, even if it costs more money....

 

[Kvothe]

Reputation is highly subjective...

Remember, it only takes one bad student from a school to ruin a reputation in the eyes of the residency program. Your schools rep won't help you if someone from 3yrs ahead of you is a jackass at your dream program.

A friend who was an attending at a big academic institution said that some of his worst residents came from Harvard/Hopkins/insertbignameschool and some of his best came from no name places. Certainly not the norm but it is true. Reputation can be deceiving and attendings/PDs know this; they want people who will be good residents, not someone who went to X school. If you work hard and can show it through stats and ECs, your schools name/rep won't have as large of an impact as SDN suggests. Whether or not you will have an easier time succeeding at a school is highly SUBJECTIVE. I would hate living in Michigan, which means I would be miserable and my motivation/stats would suffer: not a good fit for me personally.

Also, we are going to DO schools and will be matching into ACGME residency (assuming merger goes through and you graduate after 2015), majority of PDs will never have heard of your school and even if they have, I'm sure it will just be a minor note in their decision process.


Sorry for the rant, just my 2cents from talking to actual attendings/PD/residents/med students from many different fields and programs

 

[411309]

Yes, I believe it is. At least I hope it is seeing as I am paying an extra 80k to attend MSUCOM (most likely) over any other school. If it has a reputation, you will be better recognized, no doubt about it. If the school has many solid base hospitals with residency programs there, yes, that is also beneficial. Not to mention you get to see more pathology with schools that have better rotation sites. Seeing as we are disadvantaged to begin with, I feel it is important to factor in a schools reputation and clinical training, even if it costs more money....

say what? going DO doesnt put you at a big disadvantage..maybe if you want to go for top residencies...there are many DO surgeons, derms, etc out there. More than possible.

Also people assume new schools dont have established rotation sites which is untrue considering ACOM will.

 

[411309]

personally, I think spending way more on tuition for a name isn't the best idea. Unless that school has a lot of advantages over others. If you're paying MSU OOS you be 320k in debt just with tuition alone..you may hit 400k in debt..to me that's crazy.

 

[MedPR]

Also, we are going to DO schools and will be matching into ACGME residency (assuming merger goes through and you graduate after 2015), majority of PDs will never have heard of your school and even if they have...

Sorry that's not entirely true. The existing AOA programs that survive accreditation and are newly termed ACGME will not magically lose memory of DO schools. The same is true for existing ACGME programs that know about DO schools.

The merger isn't going to diminish knowledge about DO schools.

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[MedPR]

say what? going DO doesnt put you at a big disadvantage..maybe if you want to go for top residencies...there are many DO surgeons, derms, etc out there. More than possible.

Also people assume new schools dont have established rotation sites which is untrue considering ACOM will.

The problem with new schools as far as rotations go is stuff like organization and having enough attendings as well as attendings in specific areas/specialties. For example if a new school can't get attendings in EM, then the M3s at that school don't get an EM rotation. Along the same lines if the school can only get 1 or 2 IM attendings, then those M3s will be on huge medicine teams and get less exposure and less time to make a good impression to get a good letter of recommendation.

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[Kvothe]

Point was, most ACGME programs don't have DO schools on their radars like they do MD programs and the merger will expose them to a lot more DO students.

 

[MedPR]

Point was, most ACGME programs don't have DO schools on their radars like they do MD programs and the merger will expose them to a lot more DO students.

What makes you think there will be an increase in DO applicants to the existing ACGME? It's not like ACGME programs are going to lower their standards and attract DOs.

The merger isn't removing any obstacle for DOs except taking two boards. But the people who are applying ACGME now are likely taking both anyway.
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[411309]

The problem with new schools as far as rotations go is stuff like organization and having enough attendings as well as attendings in specific areas/specialties. For example if a new school can't get attendings in EM, then the M3s at that school don't get an EM rotation. Along the same lines if the school can only get 1 or 2 IM attendings, then those M3s will be on huge medicine teams and get less exposure and less time to make a good impression to get a good letter of recommendation.

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they already have our rotations set up at very established places.

 

[MedPR]

they already have our rotations set up at very established places.

Having them setup at places doesn't say anything about the number of attendings available.

I don't doubt that ACOM had a place for you to do clerkships, but I have no clue how they are setup and if hey are sharing a hospital with an MD.
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[HalfListic]

What makes you think there will be an increase in DO applicants to the existing ACGME? It's not like ACGME programs are going to lower their standards and attract DOs.

The merger isn't removing any obstacle for DOs except taking two boards. But the people who are applying ACGME now are likely taking both anyway.
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Agreed

I dont even think its taking any obstacles away...comlex lives on, as far as I know.

 

[411309]

Having them setup at places doesn't say anything about the number of attendings available.

I don't doubt that ACOM had a place for you to do clerkships, but I have no clue how they are setup and if hey are sharing a hospital with an MD.
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well see I guess. The hospital ACOM partnered with is amazing though.

 

[MedPR]

I dont even think its taking any obstacles away...comlex lives on, as far as I know.

Oh.. Well then this only strengthens my point that the merger does very little to help DOs.

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[HalfListic]

Having them setup at places doesn't say anything about the number of attendings available.

I don't doubt that ACOM had a place for you to do clerkships, but I have no clue how they are setup and if hey are sharing a hospital with an MD.
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Not sure about ACOM specifically (but from what Ive heard, it sounds pretty good to go there) but one of the biggest considerations for new schools is to establish clerkships. In fact, compared to some of the schools having some trouble with rotations at the moment, a couple of the new schools (MUCOM and ACOM) are more secure.

 

[HalfListic]

Oh.. Well then this only strengthens my point that the merger does very little to help DOs.

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that it does...the only way it helps was to avoid the impending sanctions that were coming down the tube from the ACGME

 

[MedPR]

Not sure about ACOM specifically (but from what Ive heard, it sounds pretty good to go there) but one of the biggest considerations for new schools is to establish clerkships. In fact, compared to some of the schools having some trouble with rotations at the moment, a couple of the new schools (MUCOM and ACOM) are more secure.

Again. I don't doubt that they are setup. I am unsure of how many attendings and which specialties within the core clerkships they have secured. And not just for ACOM but for all the new schools.

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[Kvothe]

As of now only some people (don't know the %) apply to ACGME. Soon everyone will. Do you honestly think originally ACGME programs aren't going to get more DO applicants?

If anything it is a huge step forward for DOs because our PG training will have the exact same standards as our MD colleagues.

Edit: not everyone buys into the reputation aspect of deciding between schools and they tend to do just fine. However you choose your school will be just fine as long as it is a good fit for you and you bust your ***** once your there... If you do choose based on rep, more power to you, I'm sure we will all do just fine as long as we get into a field we love and have DO behind our names

 

[411309]

that it does...the only way it helps was to avoid the impending sanctions that were coming down the tube from the ACGME

I guess our class of 2017 will be the lucky ones to see firsthand how the changes are taking affect...lol

 

[MedPR]

As of now only some people (don't know the %) apply to ACGME. Soon everyone will. Do you honestly think originally ACGME programs aren't going to get more DO applicants?

Yes and I'll tell you why. We will use WashU as our example. What are the reasons why any given DO doesnt apply to WashU? Either they are not competitive, don't like the location, don't like WashU, and WashU is not very accepting of DO. Are any of those things going to change following the merger? No. So why will the number of DO applicants go up?

The merger will increase expectations for the current AOA. If current AOA programs can't achieve those standards they will lose accreditation. What does that mean? It means a lower number of DO friendly residencies. This merger is great for top DO students and terrible for DOs with low stats and poor credentials.

Edit: the merger does not increase the number of DO friendly residencies. Bias will exist regardless.
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[HalfListic]

Again. I don't doubt that they are setup. I am unsure of how many attendings and which specialties within the core clerkships they have secured. And not just for ACOM but for all the new schools.

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I only applied to and interviewed at one new school (MUCOM) which is very well funded and connected, and might be an outlier here, but I seriously doubt it. rotations are a high priority for all schools and new schools have nothing else to work on besides setting all this up (no current classes/administration to deal with.

Even established schools, like midwestern recently, have had trouble with clerkships so I wouldn't attribute this to new schools.

 

[HalfListic]

I guess our class of 2017 will be the lucky ones to see firsthand how the changes are taking affect...lol

yeah, we'll be the third class to experience this combined match...tough to predict what it will do, but at least we'll see two years ahead of us

 

[MedPR]

I only applied to and interviewed at one new school (MUCOM) which is very well funded and connected, and might be an outlier here, but I seriously doubt it. rotations are a high priority for all schools and new schools have nothing else to work on besides setting all this up (no current classes/administration to deal with.

Even established schools, like midwestern recently, have had trouble with clerkships so I wouldn't attribute this to new schools.

They also have no feedback from students, faculty, residency programs, or hospital staff. Also no step scores or evaluations to judge the quality of rotations.

I don't agree that new schools have nothing else to work on or worry about though. Existing schools work to improve in all areas based on prior success and failures. New schools are trying to be as good as possible, but they don't have graduates or current students to help in that process.

The only upside to going to a new school is the novelty of being the first or one of the first graduates. And of course stuff like location and whatever else, but those things are independent of the fact that the school is new.

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[HalfListic]

They also have no feedback from students, faculty, residency programs, or hospital staff. Also no step scores or evaluations to judge the quality of rotations.

The only upside to going to a new school is the novelty of being the first or one of the first graduates. And of course stuff like location and whatever else, but those things are independent of the fact that the school is new.

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These are mostly valid points, except when you stop to think...nearly all DO schools have good rotation sites. Not amazing, not horrible. Any decent new, or old school, will be able to produce good sites and any decent hospital can make a good program as well.

This isnt residency...this is clerkships. The "quality" isnt going to vary as much, since you aren't really doing much as compared to residency training. You need to get good grades and good letters and Im pretty confident most sites can get you this. Did sylvanthus, who had horrible clerkships, match into radiology or gas?

Point being, this isnt that big of a deal.

 

[MedPR]

These are mostly valid points, except when you stop to think...nearly all DO schools have good rotation sites. Not amazing, not horrible. Any decent new, or old school, will be able to produce good sites and any decent hospital can make a good program as well.

This isnt residency...this is clerkships. The "quality" isnt going to vary as much, since you aren't really doing much as compared to residency training. You need to get good grades and good letters and Im pretty confident most sites can get you this. Did sylvanthus, who had horrible clerkships, match into radiology or gas?

Point being, this isnt that big of a deal.

I dont actually know a lot about most DO school rotations.. Only the schools I'm interested in, so I won't disagree with you. I also won't argue whether or not one needs good clerkships. What I will say, however, is that I want to go somewhere with excellent M3/M4 sites. I want to be exposed to as much as possible.


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[HalfListic]

I dont actually know a lot about most DO school rotations.. Only the schools I'm interested in, so I won't disagree with you. I also won't argue whether or not one needs good clerkships. What I will say, however, is that I want to go somewhere with excellent M3/M4 sites. I want to be exposed to as much as possible.


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And now, we agree 😉

 

[MedPR]

And now, we agree 😉

👍 see I'm not so bad 😉

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[felix2929]

I dont actually know a lot about most DO school rotations.. Only the schools I'm interested in, so I won't disagree with you. I also won't argue whether or not one needs good clerkships. What I will say, however, is that I want to go somewhere with excellent M3/M4 sites. I want to be exposed to as much as possible.


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This has been the hardest part of the decision process for me because I just feel like I've had a very hard time getting a lot of information about rotation sites from the schools. The people who I asked on my interview day weren't ever really prepared to answer those questions. The students available to us on interview day are usually 1st or 2nd years and had no direct experience with rotations. I've spoken with a DMU grad who had a great experience with his rotations, but have also heard that since most of these schools split their students amongst different sites your experience may vary considerably from someone else. MedPR have you had more success than me?

 

[MedPR]

This has been the hardest part of the decision process for me because I just feel like I've had a very hard time getting a lot of information about rotation sites from the schools. The people who I asked on my interview day weren't ever really prepared to answer those questions. The students available to us on interview day are usually 1st or 2nd years and had no direct experience with rotations. I've spoken with a DMU grad who had a great experience with his rotations, but have also heard that since most of these schools split their students amongst different sites your experience may vary considerably from someone else. MedPR have you had more success than me?

Nope. What I "know" is based on reading school specific threads from past years, talking to current students, and a bit of research. The one thing I've found is a lot less consistency in DO (every school) than MD and I think we all agree that's a concerning reality. I have heard horror stories about every DO I've inquired about, even the ones we all consider to be among the top tier.

I do agree that it sucks to go on a tour led by M1s... Especially when you interview in August, September, and October when they are so new and probably don't know much more about the school than your average SDNer.

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[maestrohuang]

Every doctor that I have ever spoken with has told me that it does not matter where you go to school. They all have said to go to the cheapest school.

 

[HalfListic]

Every doctor that I have ever spoken with has told me that it does not matter where you go to school. They all have said to go to the cheapest school.

This is almost always true...though you could also put in "favorite" in place of cheapest

 

[felix2929]

This is almost always true...though you could also put in "favorite" in place of cheapest

i hope so. i think im going to end up going to DMU over CCOM and KCOM for those two reasons. I preferred Des Moines to Kirksville and the cost of CCOM is much greater than either of the other 2.

 

[MedPR]

Every doctor that I have ever spoken with has told me that it does not matter where you go to school. They all have said to go to the cheapest school.

Have you talked to any doctors in high places? Chiefs, heads of departments, doctors making 90% salaries? If your sample population does not represent all or even most of the range of success, then it is irrelevant.

However the cheapest school is the general consensus on SDN.l

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