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Is it worth it?

Started by Quester
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It's not...you'll get a pretty decent education no matter where you go.

Seriously, how important is it to go to a more established school? I thought we should just go where it's a "better fit".
What YOU do with your medical school education is vastly more important to a residency director than the school you're coming from.

How does school name play a role in our career?
Nope!

If the school name is so important, is that worth coughing up extra $20 000+ per year
 
Goro said:
It's not...you'll get a pretty decent education no matter where you go.

Seriously, how important is it to go to a more established school? I thought we should just go where it's a "better fit".
What YOU do with your medical school education is vastly more important to a residency director than the school you're coming from.

How does school name play a role in our career?
Nope!

If the school name is so important, is that worth coughing up extra $20 000+ per year
Click to expand...

Its always great when Goro shows up!👍
 
MedPR said:
Have you talked to any doctors in high places? Chiefs, heads of departments, doctors making 90% salaries? If your sample population does not represent all or even most of the range of success, then it is irrelevant.

However the cheapest school is the general consensus on SDN.l

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile
Click to expand...

Remember, I was a part of the MSKCC summer internship with the best Ca physicians in the country. I met 1 from St. George, 1 from Ross, 5-6 from UMDNJ, 4-5 from Columbia, 2-3 from NYU, 2 from Harvard, 2-3 Osteopaths from NYCOM...

And they all work together doing new patient rounds and they all ask each other for questions when they need help. They are all the same, from St. George, to NYCOM, to Harvard. Their salaries are also very similar and obviously specialty based. Spoke with an anesthesia physician from UMDNJ and he makes well over 450k, while the St. George grad that is a diagnostic radiologist makes just as much. The PMR physician from NYCOM is about 100k less, but that's because they are PMR.

Hustle
 
Goro said:
It's not...you'll get a pretty decent education no matter where you go.

Seriously, how important is it to go to a more established school? I thought we should just go where it's a "better fit".
What YOU do with your medical school education is vastly more important to a residency director than the school you're coming from.

How does school name play a role in our career?
Nope!

If the school name is so important, is that worth coughing up extra $20 000+ per year
Click to expand...

thats what ive been saying..theyre not going to take someone over you that has inferior board scores/overall app just because they went to a older DO school. Completely agree. I dont think people realize how much more 20-40k a year is...
 
People need to stop thinking long term here. Yes, in the long term you can pay off any amount of money, but that isn't the damn point.

In the short/middle term, increased debt --> less flexibility choosing living location post-residency, which can end up hindering your professional growth and screwing up your personal life.

Within reason, avoid as much debt as you can.
 
ColeSmalls said:
thats what ive been saying..theyre not going to take someone over you that has inferior board scores/overall app just because they went to a older DO school. Completely agree. I dont think people realize how much more 20-40k a year is...
Click to expand...

I don't think people are saying just because one graduates from an older DO school they will have an advantage. It was asked if a more established school (which can mean many things) is worth the money. Now, if I want to be as best as possible, I think that it's important I have the best quality of rotations, and become exposed to the most pathology. Whether you or anyone feels if 80k is worth better rotation quality and better exposure is for them to judge. Personally, it is important.... I want to graduate feeling confident I am going to be a great physician because of my training. I don't want to enter residency feeling worried because of poor rotation sites.
 
docmayer said:
I don't think people are saying just because one graduates from an older DO school they will have an advantage. It was asked if a more established school (which can mean many things) is worth the money. Now, if I want to be as best as possible, I think that it's important I have the best quality of rotations, and become exposed to the most pathology. Whether you or anyone feels if 80k is worth better rotation quality and better exposure is for them to judge. Personally, it is important.... I want to graduate feeling confident I am going to be a great physician because of my training. I don't want to enter residency feeling worried because of poor rotation sites.
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people say that all the time on SDN, that graduates from an old school have an avantage over a new one. what you do is up to you brah. if you're willing to go that far because you arent sure of some factors, then go for it. you're all in at 400k, too rich for my blood lol.
 
Quester said:
Hey guys,

Lately I've been seeing a lot of threads on choosing which schools to attend, and one thing I've noticed people talk about is alumni connection and the school name.

Seriously, how important is it to go to a more established school? I thought we should just go where it's a "better fit". How does school name play a role in our career?

If the school name is so important, is that worth coughing up extra $20 000+ per year?
Click to expand...

No, it isn't, for several reasons

1) I went to a DO school. Since most people are not familiar with them, most people don't know what my school's name means anyway.

2) None of my patients have ever asked what school I went to or what my degree is

3) Medical education is mostly self-directed

4) I neither see nor talk to anyone in my graduating class as we all went our own separate ways for residency

5) Rotations are way more important than anything else

6) That extra 20k/year will add up to an additional $80,000 in debt without also considering interest. It isn't worth it.
 
MedPR said:
Yes and I'll tell you why. We will use WashU as our example. What are the reasons why any given DO doesnt apply to WashU? Either they are not competitive, don't like the location, don't like WashU, and WashU is not very accepting of DO. Are any of those things going to change following the merger? No. So why will the number of DO applicants go up?
Click to expand...

It will go up, because people won't have to worry about trying for ACGME, not getting in, but having already pulled out of the AOA match.

Let's say I wanted to apply to neurosurgery programs and had exceptional grades, evals, board scores, research, and everything. I'd still be very leery of applying to ACGME programs. I'd probably just apply AOA, since I wouldn't be confident enough to only rank ACGME, and if I ranked both, I'd be pulled from the ACGME automatically if I was accepted in the AOA match, which would be more likely. Now (or in 2015), I wouldn't have to make that decision. I could apply to programs on both sides, and just try to get into whatever was the best program that would have me.

maestrohuang said:
Every doctor that I have ever spoken with has told me that it does not matter where you go to school. They all have said to go to the cheapest school.
Click to expand...

All but one told me this. The one dissenting opinion said to go wherever was most fun. :laugh:

MedPR said:
Have you talked to any doctors in high places? Chiefs, heads of departments, doctors making 90% salaries? If your sample population does not represent all or even most of the range of success, then it is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

My recommendation was written by the department head of a major city's busiest emergency department, and he makes 90%+ in his field. He agreed: go with the cheapest option.

I'd pay extra not to be the first class through a new program, and there's a handful of special situations that would be worth some extra money to avoid, but cost of attendance should probably be the biggest factor in most cases.

Or you could just do what I do and go to your cheapest option and still do your rotations at a 450+ bed Level 1 trauma center with a number of residencies...
 
ColeSmalls said:
people say that all the time on SDN, that graduates from an old school have an avantage over a new one. what you do is up to you brah. if you're willing to go that far because you arent sure of some factors, then go for it. you're all in at 400k, too rich for my blood lol.
Click to expand...

Naw, MSU is 59k/year and I can live at home. Doesn't sound too too shabby.
 
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Druggernaut said:
All but one told me this. The one dissenting opinion said to go wherever was most fun. :laugh:



My recommendation was written by the department head of a major city's busiest emergency department, and he makes 90%+ in his field. He agreed: go with the cheapest option.

I'd pay extra not to be the first class through a new program, and there's a handful of special situations that would be worth some extra money to avoid, but cost of attendance should probably be the biggest factor in most cases.

Or you could just do what I do and go to your cheapest option and still do your rotations at a 450+ bed Level 1 trauma center with a number of residencies...
Click to expand...

maestrohuang said:
Remember, I was a part of the MSKCC summer internship with the best Ca physicians in the country. I met 1 from St. George, 1 from Ross, 5-6 from UMDNJ, 4-5 from Columbia, 2-3 from NYU, 2 from Harvard, 2-3 Osteopaths from NYCOM...

And they all work together doing new patient rounds and they all ask each other for questions when they need help. They are all the same, from St. George, to NYCOM, to Harvard. Their salaries are also very similar and obviously specialty based. Spoke with an anesthesia physician from UMDNJ and he makes well over 450k, while the St. George grad that is a diagnostic radiologist makes just as much. The PMR physician from NYCOM is about 100k less, but that's because they are PMR.

Hustle
Click to expand...

Boom + hustle harder
 
It matters where you go to school when applying for residency. However, in general, all DO schools are lumped together.
 
Druggernaut said:
It will go up, because people won't have to worry about trying for ACGME, not getting in, but having already pulled out of the AOA match.
Let's say I wanted to apply to neurosurgery programs and had exceptional grades, evals, board scores, research, and everything. I'd still be very leery of applying to ACGME programs. I'd probably just apply AOA, since I wouldn't be confident enough to only rank ACGME, and if I ranked both, I'd be pulled from the ACGME automatically if I was accepted in the AOA match, which would be more likely. Now (or in 2015), I wouldn't have to make that decision. I could apply to programs on both sides, and just try to get into whatever was the best program that would have me.
Click to expand...

Ah that's true. I forgot about how the current match works for DOs.
 
I've had two members of adcom's (1 MD and 1 DO) tell me that the best school you can go to is the one that will give you the best chance at landing the best residency possible. Obviously there are other factors, but this is something I plan on adhering to.
 
Mehd School said:
I've had two members of adcom's (1 MD and 1 DO) tell me that the best school you can go to is the one that will give you the best chance at landing the best residency possible. Obviously there are other factors, but this is something I plan on adhering to.
Click to expand...

Same but many on SDN think every school gives you equal opportunity for residency. I kindly disagree.

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MedPR said:
Same but many on SDN think every school gives you equal opportunity for residency. I kindly disagree.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile
Click to expand...

I really think the name of your school will help if you are competing against an equally qualified applicant. The older your school, the more alumni and more likely that a program has taken one of your schools alumni in the past meaning they are more likely to choose you over an equally qualified applicant from a school they have never heard of.

However an established school won't make up for crappy boards etc...

That is my thought based on what docs I have talked to say, since I'm still a pre-med maybe there is something I'm missing that I just haven't found out yet
 
rcheech7 said:
I really think the name of your school will help if you are competing against an equally qualified applicant. The older your school, the more alumni and more likely that a program has taken one of your schools alumni in the past meaning they are more likely to choose you over an equally qualified applicant from a school they have never heard of.

However an established school won't make up for crappy boards etc...

That is my thought based on what docs I have talked to say, since I'm still a pre-med maybe there is something I'm missing that I just haven't found out yet
Click to expand...

Indeed.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile
 
rcheech7 said:
I really think the name of your school will help if you are competing against an equally qualified applicant. The older your school, the more alumni and more likely that a program has taken one of your schools alumni in the past meaning they are more likely to choose you over an equally qualified applicant from a school they have never heard of.

However an established school won't make up for crappy boards etc...

That is my thought based on what docs I have talked to say, since I'm still a pre-med maybe there is something I'm missing that I just haven't found out yet
Click to expand...

In a perfect world that would be true, but a good school holds more weight than a good board score at most programs.
 
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cliquesh said:
In a perfect world that would be true, but a good school holds more weight than a good board score at most programs. A "good" DO school does not exist.
Click to expand...

Really? A 210 from WashU beats a 260 from EVMS?

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MedPR said:
Really? A 210 from WashU beats a 260 from EVMS?

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Click to expand...

If you replace EVMS with some DO school, yes, I think it's true. Ive interviewed with us md kids with scores in the 210's and they are interviewing at programs I got rejected from with a 250 something. And these kids are not from washU.
 
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cliquesh said:
If you replace EVMS with some DO school, yes, I think it's true. Ive interviewed with us md kids with scores in the 210's and they are interviewing at programs I got rejected from with a 250 something. And these kids are not from washU.
Click to expand...

Ah ok, yea that is less surprising.
 
cliquesh said:
If you replace EVMS with some DO school, yes, I think it's true. Ive interviewed with us md kids with scores in the 210's and they are interviewing at programs I got rejected from with a 250 something. And these kids are not from washU.
Click to expand...

If you don't mind me asking, which specialty are you applying to? I'd expect this from programs like surgical specialties and radiology, but less of a difference at others.
 
MedPR said:
Same but many on SDN think every school gives you equal opportunity for residency. I kindly disagree.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile
Click to expand...

Most DO schools do though...thats just the truth, if we are speaking of ACGME spots. If AOA, then there might be some preference for some schools, but more from ties than name, and much much much more important are Audition rotations, Board scores and grades. School just isn't that important in the match.

That being said, school selection is important. You should find a school that you like and that will give you the experience you are looking for.


Maybe the most important note of this entire thread is that most students dont really even have a choice anyway. Most are accepted by either one school, or similar schools. So, it really does just come down to preference. I didn't think this at first, but I have come to find this is usually the case
 
toxicwombat said:
People need to stop thinking long term here. Yes, in the long term you can pay off any amount of money, but that isn't the damn point.

In the short/middle term, increased debt --> less flexibility choosing living location post-residency, which can end up hindering your professional growth and screwing up your personal life.

Within reason, avoid as much debt as you can.
Click to expand...


You'd really choose less short/middle term debt for less long term success? I would not.

And no, I'm not saying more debt now == more success later. But your post seems to imply that you'd sacrifice a certain level of success to save ~$80k pre-interest right now.
 
MedPR said:
You'd really choose less short/middle term debt for less long term success? I would not.

And no, I'm not saying more debt now == more success later. But your post seems to imply that you'd sacrifice a certain level of success to save ~$80k pre-interest right now.
Click to expand...

On the contrary, my post was implying that more debt hinders your growth both professionally and personally. Straight out of residency, for example, it limits where you can practice because cost of living, especially if you're trying to be raise a family.

Now, that being said, I mentioned "within reason" because I wouldn't turn down CCOM for LECOM. But if the choice is between two somewhat equal schools then obviously less debt is better (in my case, KCOM vs NSU).

Also... sometimes I wonder about your definition of success. Seems like "prestige" would be a more fitting term 😉
 
cliquesh said:
If you replace EVMS with some DO school, yes, I think it's true. Ive interviewed with us md kids with scores in the 210's and they are interviewing at programs I got rejected from with a 250 something. And these kids are not from washU.
Click to expand...

That's more of an MD vs DO thing than an upper tier vs lower tier. I've had PDs straight up say to our class that they probably wouldn't take a DO applicant regardless of scores because they've never really worked with DOs.

But in terms of upper vs lower tier MD or upper vs lower tier DO it probably wouldn't matter too much.
 
toxicwombat said:
People need to stop thinking long term here. Yes, in the long term you can pay off any amount of money, but that isn't the damn point.

In the short/middle term, increased debt --> less flexibility choosing living location post-residency, which can end up hindering your professional growth and screwing up your personal life.

Within reason, avoid as much debt as you can.
Click to expand...

toxicwombat said:
On the contrary, my post was implying that more debt hinders your growth both professionally and personally. Straight out of residency, for example, it limits where you can practice because cost of living, especially if you're trying to be raise a family.

Now, that being said, I mentioned "within reason" because I wouldn't turn down CCOM for LECOM. But if the choice is between two somewhat equal schools then obviously less debt is better (in my case, KCOM vs NSU).

Also... sometimes I wonder about your definition of success. Seems like "prestige" would be a more fitting term 😉
Click to expand...

Then what does not thinking long term have to do with it?
 
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