Is it worth trying to get into the "top" med schools?

[Buster Douglas]

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Just a thought... (in response to the "Who gets into the top med schools?" thread)

Don't all American schools teach the same material relatively the same way for the same boards?
Are the "top" medical schools really producing "better" doctors?
Are the "top" medical schools considered to be the "top" only because they admit only the "most competive" undergraduates?

Yes, levels of research done at various schools does come into play when comparing which schools are the best, but for the majority of us that are considering being just regular plain ole' practicing doctors, is it really worth it trying to get into the "top" medical school?

I'm not going to deny that it would be sweet to say that you got your degree from Harvard, but is it more about bragging rites than about the quality of education you'll receive?

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by Buster Douglas
Just a thought... (in response to the "Who gets into the top med schools?" thread)

Don't all American schools teach the same material relatively the same way for the same boards?
Are the "top" medical schools really producing "better" doctors?
Are the "top" medical schools considered to be the "top" only because they admit only the "most competive" undergraduates?

Yes, levels of research done at various schools does come into play when comparing which schools are the best, but for the majority of us that are considering being just regular plain ole' practicing doctors, is it really worth it trying to get into the "top" medical school?

I'm not going to deny that it would be sweet to say that you got your degree from Harvard, but is it more about bragging rites than about the quality of education you'll receive?

If you do not believe yourself to be part of any of the following groups, then don't worry about "top research" medical schools so much:

1. Want to be an academic physician.

2. Want to be a health policy leader/national figure in shaping American health care.

3. Want to enter radiology, opthamology, anesthesiology, dermatology, or some other cushy speciality with low hours/high pay.

4. Want to enter a rare and competitive subspecialty (cardiothoracic surgeon, pediatric neurosurgeon, etc).

5. Want to impress people with the name of your med school, Don't care about money, and have always done the most difficult thing possible just because.

If you are interested in primary care and just being a solid physician, and don't want to graduate with much debt, almost ANY accredited medical school will give you a great education. Just pick based on price, location, and your gut feeling, and you will do just fine. Good luck!

 

[Spacekat]

Monsieur Douglas,

Gotta agree with you on this one. I can't speak specifically about medical school, but I attended a similarly designed technical program in a different field. I was very intimidated on the first day because I had an MIT grad on one side of me, a Reensselaer guy behind me, and a recent student of Cal Tech on my other side. I went to a regular old state school and figured these guys would blow me away. As it turned out, I was the only one of the four not to fail out.

This is not to say that the "top" schools do not offer fine educations, but that there is FAR more to success than the name at the top of your stationery. There are more important things in life to worry about.

 

[ForceField]

Originally posted by Gleevec
If you do not believe yourself to be part of any of the following groups, then don't worry about "top research" medical schools so much:

1. Want to be an academic physician.

2. Want to be a health policy leader/national figure in shaping American health care.

3. Want to enter radiology, opthamology, anesthesiology, dermatology, or some other cushy speciality with low hours/high pay.

4. Want to enter a rare and competitive subspecialty (cardiothoracic surgeon, pediatric neurosurgeon, etc).

5. Want to impress people with the name of your med school, Don't care about money, and have always done the most difficult thing possible just because.

If you are interested in primary care and just being a solid physician, and don't want to graduate with much debt, almost ANY accredited medical school will give you a great education. Just pick based on price, location, and your gut feeling, and you will do just fine. Good luck!

Your argumentation is severely flawed. You don't have to go to a top med school to enter some rare or highly competitive specialty. Every medical school generates anesthesiologists, radiologists, etc. Sure, the top med schools may generate a few more, but not substantially more to make a decision between two schools. Board scores are more important in securing residencies than the name of the school. The name can give added flavor in the application process, but the numbers are number one, unless of course you have a connection.

 

[28129]

My Dad says that in 20+ years, no patient has ever asked him where he went to med. school at.

Usually the physicians that make the most money aren't the guys who went to the top med. school, but folks who went to state schools and were more focused on the business side of things. Also, the debt load from a private school can be crushing afterwards, especially if you've already got undergraduate loans. The pittance they pay you during residency doesn't help.

If you want to go into research, academics, administration, or public policy, where you graduate from does make a big difference. It's not so much a matter of what you learn, but moreso the weight of the name and the connections you make.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by ForceField
Your argumentation is severely flawed. You don't have to go to a top med school to enter some rare or highly competitive specialty. Every medical school generates anesthesiologists, radiologists, etc. Sure, the top med schools may generate a few more, but not substantially more to make a decision between two schools. Board scores are more important in securing residencies than the name of the school. The name can give added flavor in the application process, but the numbers are number one, unless of course you have a connection.

Actually, I agree with you that non-top med schools are great as well. Im not saying you HAVE to go for a highly competitive specialty, but it helps-- thats why match lists matter and differ

 

[LUBDUBB]

Originally posted by ForceField
Your argumentation is severely flawed. You don't have to go to a top med school to enter some rare or highly competitive specialty.

ForceField,

Gleevec never said that you have to go to a top med school to enter some highly competitive speciality. He just said "don't be too concerned" with a top medical school if you don't include yourself in those categories that he listed. Although I see where you could have made that inference. But for the sake of the verbal section, don't make unnecessary inferences...j/k

 

[WatchingWaiting]

Re: Want to enter radiology, opthamology, anesthesiology, dermatology, or some other cushy speciality with low hours/high pay.


Not to disrupt the main theme, but anesthesiology is absolutely NOT a hard-to-enter specialty. The other three are much harder to get into than gas.

 

[quideam]

Remember when we were all applying to colleges, and people were worried about whether going to a better undergrad will help you get into a top med school? Well, I think this is all the same thing...

I go to a state school, and I have friends who CHOSE to come here over an Ivy because of $. They were high caliber students, so they then went on to top med schools.

Moral of the story: I don't think it's so much if you GO to a top med school as if you can GET INTO one. Sure, Harvard beats Finch, but someone who gets into Harvard and turns it down for, say, a full ride to Finch, will not only be at the top of his class and save a ton of cash, but I am also willing to bet will get a top-notch residency.

Personally, I want to do international EM or possibly surgery. I would love to get into a top school (bragging rights), but of the top 5 schools on my list, only 2 are "top 10s".

My 2 cents.
- Quid

 

[AverageMan]

During my interview and from talking with the faculty and students at columbia, they do insist that going to a top school is needed to get into competitive residencies. The example they gave me was neurosurgery (something that columbia has a very strong and competitive in). They said that out of 3 new positions they may have in a year for neurosurgery, 2 will be filled by columbia graduates, and the third will be filled by another ivy-esque school (Hopkins, Harvard, Yale, etc). Occasionally, the third spot will be filled from a state school but it'll be because he's super-outstanding and scored a 270 on his boards. Name does count for a lot in all aspects of med school. The guy I talked to said that he went to some ivy (harvard I think) and from there went to hopkins because of his undergrad school and from there got a residency at columbia; the gist of his story being that he was riding on the fact that he was well rounded in high school. I'm not saying I think it's entirely true, but this is the attitude that people on the inside seem to have.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by LUBDUBB
ForceField,

Gleevec never said that you have to go to a top med school to enter some highly competitive speciality. He just said "don't be too concerned" with a top medical school if you don't include yourself in those categories that he listed. Although I see where you could have made that inference. But for the sake of the verbal section, don't make unnecessary inferences...j/k

Bingo, thanks for clarifying my statement further lub.

 

[Paws]

Here's another opinion, my humble 0.02 worth.

I too, agree with Gleevec and think he's right on there about medicine is more an equal playing field once you get going. I think too, that the residencies are pretty well distributed and I've been very impressed by the placements people get from different schools all over the country. I think it must be done this way on purpose, to help keep a healthy flow and balance among the residency programs, and so that everyone gets a good balance - doctors and hospitals.

I went to a good UGrad school and so I know what it's like to work hard in a very competitive environement. I would be very happy to go to a state school and enjoy the atmosphere. I don't need a big name.

 

[MeowMix]

If you plan to write a book about your med school experiences or your life as a doctor, you should go to Harvard. Half the books I pick up seem to be about Harvard, or written by Harvard grads.

On the other hand, maybe the publishing companies are ready for a different perspective.

 

[Wednesday]

(First of all, I think there are numerous threads about this if you do a search. Try looking in allopathic too.)

I think some of you guys are equating "big name medical school" with "harder" (or more importantly "lesser name school/state school" with "easier"). This is not necessarily true. Every medical school teaches the same material, not much of it particularly hard. Where ever you go, you will be held responsible for the same stuff. In fact, some "non-top 10" schools are actually harder because they know that their students must ROCK the boards in order to get into competitive specialties. Some guy who gets into Harvard but takes the full ride to Finch is not necessarily going to rise to the top of his class. Just because he could get into HMS, doesn't mean he is any smarter or more capable than most of his classmates at Finch will be. Maybe it means that he went to an ivy undergrad. (and maybe he went to an ivy undergrad because his dad went there.)

As for the competition being inherently higher in a top school, I am not convinced. It is must easier to get into an ivy type med school if you went to an ivy type undergraduate school. I KNOW that there is rampant grade inflation at at least one Ivy league school (where I often heard students say "this is an ivy, we don't have to worry, the professors here take care of their own"). Programs (med schools, residencies, publishing companies) like to have people from well known and "revered" institutions (ivys etc) because of snobbery. The top ranked programs are not ranked by medical education or production of the best doctors, but everyone just assumes that they are. I mean, Harvard is the best at EVERYTHING, isn't it?

In my opinion it IS all about bragging rights--that's what you're paying for. The problem is that those bragging rights really mean something when you are applying for residencies. THAT's why those rank lists from top ranked schools are so amazing.

Let the flaming begin!

 

[DW]

Originally posted by Wednesday
As for the competition being inherently higher in a top school, I am not convinced. It is must easier to get into an ivy type med school if you went to an ivy type undergraduate school.

this statement is utterly ridiculous....ok, say your crackpot theory that GPAs at top undergrads are so horribly inflated even held some water........so how do you explain the MCAT scores at top 10-20 med schools being much higher on average than "non ranked" schools? Arent MCAT scores (even more so than gpa in some people's eyes) a measure of academic competitiveness? are MCAT scores somehow "inflated" at ivy league undergrads? 🙄

 

[finnpipette]

I personally think that the name value of top ten med schools is over-rated, but I'd be stupid to think that it doesn't matter when people are looking for a physician. A lower tier physician may be just as good a primary care physician as a top tier school physician, but in the public eye, the upper tier student is perceived to be better, even if he was near the bottom of his class. I haven't been to med school, but coming from a top ten private undergrad, I know there are a few differences. Private schools have less bureaucracy, so you can get things done faster. There is more money around for special programs and stuff to supplement your education...they're more likely to spend the money to give you special experiences. Med school may be completely different. Just one thing. Don't assume that just because a school is highly ranked, you're going to spend more money. I know for a fact, that Stanford gives you an amazing financial aid package. Many of my friends are actually graduating debt free from the medical school by TA'ing classes and doing extra research. In contrast, going to a state school like OSU, although it is highly reputable, will land you $60k debt your first year if you're out of state....just my 2 cents.

 

[DW]

Originally posted by finnpipette
Don't assume that just because a school is highly ranked, you're going to spend more money. I know for a fact, that Stanford gives you an amazing financial aid package. Many of my friends are actually graduating debt free from the medical school by TA'ing classes and doing extra research. In contrast, going to a state school like OSU, although it is highly reputable, will land you $60k debt your first year if you're out of state....just my 2 cents.

excellent point 🙂

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

Wednesday: The reason that the top medical schools (both Ivy and non-Ivy) are full of undergrads from top schools (Harvard, Penn, Dartmouth, Yale, Duke, etc) is because of a selection process that occurs WELL BEFORE any of these students actually applied to medical school. This selection process started during senior year of high school when these same students (the people at the top 10 medical schools) were applying to college. The top undergrad schools admit the best and brightest among their pool of applicants and this is clearly evident by the fact that the top 25 colleges/universities ranked in the first tier ALSO have the highest 25th-75th percentile SAT averages, highest average GPAs, etc. Since the brightest, most well-rounded students are at these top colleges...it would only follow that these same students would CONTINUE to study hard and work hard in their ECs so they can apply to a top medical school. Given the large differential in resources between the top 25 schools and the 2nd and 3rd tier schools (a student at Southwest Missouri State will not get the same research opportunities as a student at MIT or Berkeley), the students at the top undergrads are allowed to reach their full potential in whatever ECs they choose (the top schools have MUCH larger endowments for research..in addition, they receive much more money from private, corporate donors). As a result...the reason the top 10 medical schools are practically full of students from the top 15-30 undergrad schools is because those top undergrad schools are more likely to produce the best premedical students to begin with. It's not because all of those students from the Ivy undergrads are buying their way in or because admissions committees at the top med schools prefer applicants from top undergrad schools.

Originally posted by Wednesday
(First of all, I think there are numerous threads about this if you do a search. Try looking in allopathic too.)

I think some of you guys are equating "big name medical school" with "harder" (or more importantly "lesser name school/state school" with "easier"). This is not necessarily true. Every medical school teaches the same material, not much of it particularly hard. Where ever you go, you will be held responsible for the same stuff. In fact, some "non-top 10" schools are actually harder because they know that their students must ROCK the boards in order to get into competitive specialties. Some guy who gets into Harvard but takes the full ride to Finch is not necessarily going to rise to the top of his class. Just because he could get into HMS, doesn't mean he is any smarter or more capable than most of his classmates at Finch will be. Maybe it means that he went to an ivy undergrad. (and maybe he went to an ivy undergrad because his dad went there.)

As for the competition being inherently higher in a top school, I am not convinced. It is must easier to get into an ivy type med school if you went to an ivy type undergraduate school. I KNOW that there is rampant grade inflation at at least one Ivy league school (where I often heard students say "this is an ivy, we don't have to worry, the professors here take care of their own"). Programs (med schools, residencies, publishing companies) like to have people from well known and "revered" institutions (ivys etc) because of snobbery. The top ranked programs are not ranked by medical education or production of the best doctors, but everyone just assumes that they are. I mean, Harvard is the best at EVERYTHING, isn't it?

In my opinion it IS all about bragging rights--that's what you're paying for. The problem is that those bragging rights really mean something when you are applying for residencies. THAT's why those rank lists from top ranked schools are so amazing.

Let the flaming begin!

 

[vigils]

It is a common recommendation to apply to about TWO competitive school and TWO safety medical schools. You should also apply to TEN or more medical schools that you are averagely competitive. I am not specifically saying though that your two chosen competitive schools should be IVY league or upper tier schools. They should be schools with higher average GPA and MCAT scores then your own. You should pick schools you would be interested in regardless of their so-called prestige. Prestige is highly over rated. Just remember it doesn't have to be you apply to all upper tier (or the slight but false impression, a lower tier school). In reality, they are all good schools except for a few at the very bottom. Oh, one last thing, remember you can always transfer after two years. Trasfers are offered according to med school recommendations, med school grades and completion and pass of the USLME step 1. The truth is, most medical school education is gained outside of the classroom through hours of dedicated study, the school is just a guide in that study. At least thats been my impression so far in medical school.

 

[ny skindoc]

I dont think that too many people use the term "safety school" for med school applications.Few people are so strong an applicant they can count on a school being a sure thing.Even the least prestigious med schools get thousands of applications from people they end up rejecting.You cannot "always transfer after two years"..in fact there are very few transfers of students between US med schools.It is strongly discouraged except for compelling need due to personal circumstances.

 

[Wednesday]

Gosh Berkeley Premed, somehow I knew you would feel compelled to reply to this thread. I don't think everyone is buying their way into top schools. But ad coms and residency directors do like to admit students from the top schools in part for the name. Tell me you haven't looked at a residency home page and said "wow that residency program has grads from all top med schools, must be an amazing residency, I'd sure like to get into that program". I mean, why did you decide to go to Berkeley in the first place? There are plenty of schools where you could probably get a better education (and have more fun), but you know that Cal has a good name. Right?

There has been some discussion in the rad onc forum about why rad onc is so competitive all of a sudden, despite no changes in what you do, how much you make or how few hours you are required to work. One theory is that it's because people now think of rad onc as something hard to get into and they choose it because to get it is to prove that you can!!! That's so wrong!

I guess my problem is that people don't admit that the system is maybe just a little bit flawed. That just because one person makes a decision to go to a lower ranked (or gasp, not ranked!) med school that people automatically think they aren't as smart as someone who doesn't go to some top ranked school. It's just not true, but that's what happens (which is my answer to the OP-yes the name means something unto itself). Maybe there are just too many gunners in medicine who are constantly trying to prove themselves. 😀

DW, I don't think my theory is crackpot, but we're all entitled to our own opinions. I guess I just experienced some of that and I'm tainted for life. No matter. I guess it just bothers me when people say that grades from any top ranked undergrad are worth more than from any non-ranked school. Again, not necessarily true and sometimes just the opposite.

It's interesting that none of you argued that the top med schools do give you an overall better education.

Cheers everyone.

 

[SunnyS81]

My chicken is baking, so I'll take a shot at this one.

When I first showed up at med school, I thought that the ivy kids may have had an easier time getting in. My theory was that if there are 100 premeds applying from harvard, harvard might take the top 6, john hopkins the next 6, and so on down the line.

The truth is that the people I am in class with are absolutely freakin' amazing. The ivy kids deserve to be here. On another note, I've been watching who my school has been interviewing on a weekly basis and it is heavily loaded with ivy's, stanfords, dukes, and the like. Is it a bias? Maybe, but I would disagree. The most competitive kids who are very academically focused (the future members of academia) probably went to private schools. They probably worked their buts off. They probably did well, and are now applying to top medical schools. Sure there are some great people at state schools (I'm a grad of one), and they can apply where ever they want. However, they may once again choose to attend their state school for financial reasons (the same reason they didn't go to private undergrads).

As for residencies and post-residencies. Med school doesn't matter post-residency unless you are in the catagories someone listed above. Food for thought though, 10 percent (~20 people) of harvard's class last year went into dermatology.....I could be wrong but there are around 200 derm spots per year.....meaning harvard took 10% of the spots. Now you have 180 spots for 125 medical schools left. I would say they probably crushed the derm match single handedly. I'm sure they have great students however and deserved those spots (now about those JHU and WashU kids last year.........)

Remember one thing though that my interviewer at one med school told me. Medicine is a very small field. Don't piss someone off because there is a good chance that person knows other people or that you may run into that person again. On the same thought, being from a big name schools helps in that the your faculty's network of friends might be larger to help you out more in the match.

By the way, the best thing I like about being at a great school: When I'm getting my a$$ kicked in classes (which will happen whereever you go), you know that the best med students in america are also getting destroyed. Plus all of our past experiences make great fodder for conversation. I'm honored to just be their peers. Which sounds really lame, but is true.

Just my $.02

 

[DW]

have you not taken ANY consideration into the "theory" berkeleypremed spelled out, which *gasp* there might be a lot of ivy league students at top med schools/residency programs mainly because they are EXTREMELY well qualified, or is that suggestion completely lost on you? Yes, we have a lot of people from harvard and yale and brown, yadda yadda yadda....you know what else? many of these kids have 36+ MCAT scores, some have published first author in major scientific journals, worked in third world countries, have JDs/MBAs/MPHs, and overall have some of the most absurd qualifications and life experiences that would make the average applicant run and hide. overall point.....ivy league students tend to be very good students and overachievers, ergo they end up at ranked med schools.....it aint rocket science. you plan on arguing against that?

And no, i'm not here to get condascending and claim top schools provide a "better" education, and i definitely feel zero need to "prove myself" to anyone. I feel any us med school can provide you the basic competency to become a physician, and when it comes down to it no one will really care where my school was in USNEWS when i'm practicing. HOWEVER, its a matter of opportunity to many students...the farther you go up the "prestige" ladder, the more extra things to augment your education are available....nicer facilities, infinitely more research dollars, funded international work, et cetera, combined with the fact that many top schools have the financial means to make your educational debt more bearable. If you're a real go getter and want to make a profound impact on the field of medicine, which of the two schools would you prefer (since as you allude there is no difference in academic competency produced between schools): school with rockefeller/memorial sloan kettering/cleveland clinic/brigham/etc associated with it and tons of money for exotic clinical opportunities/research....or generic med school X with none of those accoutrements?