Is Ketamine overrated?

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Planktonmd

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Maybe I missed the boat on this, but I'm not giving subanesthetic doses of ketamine for the purpose of decreasing postop delirium.....

+1, about to finish residency and not something I've seen done. More used as a pain adjunct which isn't commented upon in this study... so calling it useless may be a stretch.
 
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Anybody know the NNT? They only examined 15 patients in each group.

Also, when we are giving sub anesthetic doses, it's typically 0.5mg/kg bolus upfront and depending on the attending, up to 0.5mg/kg/hr after (held during the last hour of surgery). This study appears to give just a one-time bolus.
 
Anybody know the NNT? They only examined 15 patients in each group.

It was 220+ patients in each group, they just randomized patients in blocks of 15 at a time.

On the other hand I'm curious why the title of the study talks about preventing postop pain but the findings in the abstract don't comment on that outcome at all. Did they just go fishing for any result that appeared significant and not stick to their initial hypothesis (so called p-hacking)? I don't have access to the full text so don't know for sure, just perusing the abstract.
 
This is in Lancet because it is a huge study, across multiple sites, with an important question.
It's a tough one to do, and I suspect the way most academic anesthesiologists practice, it fails to capture any putative benefit of ketamine.

"As this was a pragmatic trial, decisions about anaesthetic technique were at the discretion of the anaesthesiology team assigned to each patient"
With the double blind RCT setup that a "high quality" trial needs to use, they've basically just added another agent to the mix without sparing any possible negative effects of the others, showing no benefit, but only possible harm.

Looking at the data tables there may be a slight signal there, but you'd be parsing subgroups and squinting to make it appear. The study should give you pause when it shows that midazolam has no effect on postop delirium in folks older than 60, while a history of depression increases the odds ratio for delirium as much as having cardiac surgery.

I suspect if you redid this as an open-label study, or added some sort of reliable depth of anesthetic monitor and actually titrated the other agents used, there would be some recapitulation of the signal shown in the prior research.
 
+1, about to finish residency and not something I've seen done. More used as a pain adjunct which isn't commented upon in this study... so calling it useless may be a stretch.

Agreed, ca-1 here. I use ketamine as an analgesic adjunct as well. One of the best adjuncts in the NMDA antagonism drug class imo.
 
"A study to evaluate effects of ketamine on postoperative pain and delirium."

"Ketamine (a hallucinogen) did not improve the rates of postoperative delirium."

Does that about sum up this study? I thought The Lancet was supposed to be a good journal.
There are those who claim that ketamine prevents delirium.
 
+1, about to finish residency and not something I've seen done. More used as a pain adjunct which isn't commented upon in this study... so calling it useless may be a stretch.
The looked into post op pain, or reduced pain medication use. No difference.
 
There are those who claim that ketamine prevents delirium.

I suspect they claim this because it has been shown to do that in some studies - and also, to treat some types of delirium, one uses an NMDA-antagonist like Memantine. It seems to follow that ketamine MIGHT help with post-op delirium.
 
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I haven't heard about the anti-delirium use. "Anesthesiology", however, had an interesting study a couple months ago showing that in sub-anesthetic doses it might increase wake-up rates in the elderly, while deepening the level of sleep while under anesthesia. They showed some intricate data in rats about increases in cortical activity and evidence of earlier physical activity after anesthesia.

Something to keep in mind for those "it takes forever for me to wake up" patients or elderly patients.

Not a perfect "fix" of course, but another potential weapon in the armamentarium.
 
Ketamine is like the Swan catheter. Those who know how to use it, love it. Those who have no idea, denigrate it.
I haven't heard about the anti-delirium use. "Anesthesiology", however, had an interesting study a couple months ago showing that in sub-anesthetic doses it might increase wake-up rates in the elderly, while deepening the level of sleep while under anesthesia. They showed some intricate data in rats about increases in cortical activity and evidence of earlier physical activity after anesthesia.

Something to keep in mind for those "it takes forever for me to wake up" patients or elderly patients.


Not a perfect "fix" of course, but another potential weapon in the armamentarium.
That's usually from high doses of sevoflurane or propofol, in a stupid quest to avoid nitrous (which would also decrease opiate use). Plus versed should be very selectively used over 70.
 
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These data suggest that a patient’s odds of developing postoperative delirium were up to twice as high for general anesthesia patients compared with those who received neuraxial anesthesia, noted Ms. Weinstein, who added that further research is needed to validate these results and demonstrate the extent to which these findings are generalizable to other patient cohorts.

“These results are a portion of an ongoing study,” Ms. Weinstein said. “We’re interested in expanding this cohort to include other types of orthopedic patients. We’re also working on adding covariates from pharmacologic and laboratory data sets.”

David Birnbach, MD, MPH, vice provost and professor of anesthesiology, obstetrics and gynecology, and public health at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine, asked whether the use of ketamine infusions was associated with an increased risk for delirium.

“We are looking at this question in a separate data set,” Ms. Weinstein said. “In previous analyses, though, we have found that ketamine was associated with increased risk for delirium. It’s only a small number of patients, but there was an association.”

“How do you control for changing sedation and multimodal techniques over time?” Dr. Birnbach asked. “Delirium outcomes may be influenced by use of less opioids, for example.”

“We try to adjust for these things by taking different time periods into account,” said Stavros G. Memtsoudis, MD, PhD, attending anesthesiologist and director of critical care at the Hospital for Special Surgery. “But there is ongoing work to tease out the use of multimodal, nonopioid analgesics and how that changes over time. So far, our conclusions haven’t changed when we add these modifiers.”


http://www.anesthesiologynews.com/C...-Postoperative-Delirium-in-TKR-Patients/41484
 
Ketamine is like the Swan catheter. Those who know how to use it, love it. Those who have no idea, denigrate it.

That's usually from high doses of sevoflurane or propofol, in a stupid quest to avoid nitrous (which would also decrease opiate use). Plus versed should be very selectively used over 70.
Yes, and it's also because they're old and often have some cognitive decline.
 
Special k has gotten me out of some tight corners! Amazing drug
 
What tight corners is Ketamine getting you out of? Why are some of you guys using this almost daily? Just interested to hear in what situations ketamine has a special advantage vs other drugs we can use
 
What tight corners is Ketamine getting you out of? Why are some of you guys using this almost daily? Just interested to hear in what situations ketamine has a special advantage vs other drugs we can use

Ketamine is a very useful adjunct to decrease postop pain, particularly in patients that are chronic narcotic users. Ketamine is also a very nice drug for it's hemodynamic stability during induction while also maintaining ventilatory drive so I find it a nice adjunct to awake FOI along with dexmeditomidine.

We've obviously got a lot of drugs at our disposal, but ketamine has some wonderful properties that make it a valuable part of that repertoire. I'm sure I use it daily. Why wouldn't I? The number of patients I've seen have a serious psychiatric side effect is well under 1%.
 
How is it distributed to you guys? We now have to draw from a 10cc 500mg vial, most of which is wares. We used to get it pre-drawn in reasonable aliquots
 
How is it distributed to you guys? We now have to draw from a 10cc 500mg vial, most of which is wares. We used to get it pre-drawn in reasonable aliquots
I think it's presentation is a key reason people get unpleasant side effects, when you get such a lot in a vial it's tempting to use it.
A little goes a long way
 
I think it's presentation is a key reason people get unpleasant side effects, when you get such a lot in a vial it's tempting to use it.
A little goes a long way
Most side effects can be controlled by judicious dosing, and adding midazolam and glycopyrrolate (if heart rate permits).

In poor countries, they do entire cases on ketamine, with good outcomes. It's a great drug, the most complete IV anesthetic we have. Its lack of use reminds me of the other great anesthetic substance many treat like a stepchild: nitrous oxide. Waking up after 50-60% nitrous + 0.5-0.9% of sevo + opiates PRN is a thing of beauty, especially in longer cases and/or in the absence of remi-/alfentanil and/or desflurane (e.g. community hospitals).
 
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Even the 500mg vials are cheap.

IMO, midaz is not needed with a balanced anesthetic approach. ie. if you have an induction dose of propofol + .5 Mac + x/y/z... midaz isn't going to add much with regards to attenuation of dysphoric effects. It will prolong your wakeups with short cases. If you are doing a spine case with ketafol or propofol gtt... it's worthless and complicates an otherwise clean anesthetic.

Now for sedation in the ER... yeah... want to avoid having a bad trip with an awake patient.

I'm am one of those guys that uses midazolam infrequently pre-induction. Some cases are just way too fast to give everyone some midaz.

The exception would be a nerve block (i always give an axiolytic + a narcotic... after all we are coming at them with needles in sensative areas...sometimes a 6" stim. needle).

My point--> you don't have to give midaz with ketamine for most GA cases.
 
Even the 500mg vials are cheap.

My point--> you don't have to give midaz with ketamine for most GA cases.
agreed - it's all about judicious dosing.
For an analgesic adjunct I typically use 10-20mg at induction and 10mg/hr in an adult.
 
Ketamine is like the Swan catheter. Those who know how to use it, love it. Those who have no idea, denigrate it.

That's usually from high doses of sevoflurane or propofol, in a stupid quest to avoid nitrous (which would also decrease opiate use). Plus versed should be very selectively used over 70.
Selectively as in "prove you need benzos over the age of 65." At least in my book.
 
How is it distributed to you guys? We now have to draw from a 10cc 500mg vial, most of which is wares. We used to get it pre-drawn in reasonable aliquots

My old hospital had 500mg in 5mL in our narcotic boxes (ED, apparently, had 200mg vials in their omnicell), and we were permitted to use the vial on multiple patients. I usually drew up 100mg/10mL syringes at the start of the day. Where I am doing locums now, you can check out 50mg in 5mL prefilled syringes or a 500mg in 10mL vial (check out narcs for each individual patient). I use it on nearly every patient (lots of chronic opioid use here and in my old patient population), and almost never use midazolam.



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I'm am one of those guys that uses midazolam infrequently pre-induction. Some cases are just way too fast to give everyone some midaz.
I usually ONLY give midaz for blocks. I understand the opioid, but I think 5-10 seconds of discomfort with local doesn't completely justify the fentanyl. That said, I always get some out in case.
 
What tight corners is Ketamine getting you out of? Why are some of you guys using this almost daily? Just interested to hear in what situations ketamine has a special advantage vs other drugs we can use
In the last 2 weeks... 4 litre peptic ulcer bleed, 3 litre bleed post tah bso, and prevented me giving ga to 166kg parturient who fell apart with a perfectly working epidural when they exteriorised the uterus. Baby obvi out at that stage...

Super induction drug, when the sh1t is about to hit the fan. Lovely little drug in small doses when your regional whatever ain't fully cutting it and you just need another 10 minutes....

We have it in 10mg per cc. 500mg. The rest of it stays in my crash bag for a day or two... Along with a 3 McGrath blade, a big amp of bridion and 4% lidocaine ftw....
 
Anything more than 2 of midaz is the devil. 4 the odd time...

In years to come I do believe we will look back in horror at the benzo decades
 
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