Is my medical career over?

[Sculptura]

IAs and legal issues are some of the reasons why people go to the Carib. PDs are aware of this. Advice given by dropouts, flunk-outs and refugees from these programs are best taken with large quantities of NaCl, BTW.

A vast majority of the students who attend Caribbean programs mainly do so because of academic underperformance (low GPA and/or low MCAT score). Also, a vast majority of students who flunk out of Caribbean programs do so because of academic underperformance (missing class, bombing exams, etc.).

As an entering student at SGU, OP would likely be at least at the 95th percentile relative to the rest of the entering class when it comes to academic preparedness and probability of achieving high board scores. After all, MCAT and GPA are strong predictors of medical school and board exam performance.

I understand the qualms that SDNers have with Caribbean programs and I generally share them, but let's be honest here: In all likelihood, OP would be one of the "survivors" on the island and end up matching, as long as he continues to perform at the same level as he did in undergrad and he doesn't try to match into a super-competitive specialty.

In my opinion, this is one of the rare instances in which SGU or Ross is a perfectly viable last resort. (OP should obviously still try to apply broadly to USMD and DO programs first.)

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[aformerstudent]

A vast majority of the students who attend Caribbean programs mainly do so because of academic underperformance (low GPA and/or low MCAT score). Also, a vast majority of students who flunk out of Caribbean programs do so because of academic underperformance (missing class, bombing exams, etc.).

As an entering student at SGU, OP would likely be at least at the 95th percentile relative to the rest of the entering class when it comes to academic preparedness and probability of achieving high board scores. After all, MCAT and GPA are strong predictors of medical school and board exam performance.

I understand the qualms that SDNers have with Caribbean programs and I generally share them, but let's be honest here: In all likelihood, OP would be one of the "survivors" on the island and end up matching, as long as he continues to perform at the same level as he did in undergrad and he doesn't try to match into a super-competitive specialty.

In my opinion, this is one of the rare instances in which SGU or Ross is a perfectly viable last resort. (OP should obviously still try to apply broadly to USMD and DO programs first.)

Have YOU been to the Caribbean?

 

[Sculptura]

Have YOU been to the Caribbean?

Yes. For vacation. Great beaches.

Frankly, if I had to choose between giving up on medicine and going to the Caribbean for medical school, I'd give up on medicine. But that's just my personal preference.

 

[aformerstudent]

In my opinion, this is one of the rare instances in which SGU or Ross is a perfectly viable last resort.

OK, just checking. So you don't know what you're talking about either.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

Honestly, it wouldn't be a terrible idea for OP to apply to SGU or Ross. He has a history of academic excellence, so he'd probably have a very good shot at being part of the 40-50% of the class that finishes in four years and matches.

OP would also have a strong shot at getting into podiatry school. (I am aware of several cases of pre-pods on SDN getting interviewed/accepted despite having serious academic dishonesty-related histories.)

Just like how you have to disclose an IA to AMCAS or AACOMAS, you have to do the same for AACPMAS.

An IA is an IA at any professional school, be it MD/DO or Pod. OP has to disclose their IA if they apply for Pod schools and like what @gonnif said, it is impossible to explain this particular situation to an admissions committee.

 

[onyxbell]

OK, just checking. So you don't know what you're talking about either.

Just asking, if I want to comment on how lip-smackingly good, or atrociously bad, of a dish (like smoked baby back ribs), do I need a stint at Le Cordon Bleu? I mean, I have a tiny home smoker and it runs fine. And I've used it with some decent result before.

 

[Sculptura]

OK, just checking. So you don't know what you're talking about either.

Doctor: "I got the results back, and it looks like you have cancer. Here are your treatment options..."
Patient: "Wait. Have you ever had cancer?"
Doctor: "No."
Patient: "Well, then you don't know what you're talking about."

 

[Sculptura]

Just like how you have to disclose an IA to AMCAS or AACOMAS, you have to do the same for AACPMAS.

An IA is an IA at any professional school, be it MD/DO or Pod. OP has to disclose their IA if they apply for Pod schools and like what @gonnif said, it is impossible to explain this particular situation to an admissions committee.

I'm just going off of what I've seen in the forums. I know for a fact that some SDN members have gotten into podiatry school despite having academic dishonesty issues. Podiatry schools seem to be more forgiving when it comes to these sorts of things.

 

[Goro]

Doctor: "I got the results back, and it looks like you have cancer. Here are your treatment options..."
Patient: "Wait. Have you ever had cancer?"
Doctor: "No."
Patient: "Well, then you don't know what you're talking about."

 

[aformerstudent]

I personally thought it was a feeble response so that's why I didn't respond.

 

[Planes2Doc]

From what you mentioned, this is not an institutional action. It was kept within the classroom. No action was taken by your school administration. Something similar happened in a statistics class during my freshman year. There was a project worth 3% of our grade that was meant to be worked on individually. More than half the class worked on it together, and they took 0% for it.

Consider this a blessing and kick in the ass. Everything happens for a reason. Think of this as the time to change your ways and make sure this never happens again. So you saw what the ramifications can be, and you got off where you can make positive changes in your life. Leave it off and never let this happen again.

 

[Med Ed]

There are three basic interpretations of what happened, in order of worst to... least awful:
1) OP intentionally copied someone else's answers, and is now lying about it.
2) OP intentionally let someone else copy his answers.
3) Someone copied OP's answers without OP's consent or knowledge; OP was made aware of this after the fact and failed to take proper action to protect himself.

There is really no way to respond to the OP's question without clarifying what happened. Also, as @Planes2Doc mentions, this might not even be an IA if it was resolved in the class.

 

[Goro]

There is really no way to respond to the OP's question without clarifying what happened. Also, as @Planes2Doc mentions, this might not even be an IA if it was resolved in the class.

This is true, but there is always the risk (and I have seen this happen) that a LOR writer will inadvertently "out" the OP's transgression, as in "OP has grown so much since the cheating incident".

I do agree that if this is not on any transcript, and there is no official record, the odds look less bleak.

 

[863168]

@Sculptura If you want an honest response, you have no idea what you are typing when you recommend people go to Grenada or Dominica. I know you joke around with being a tourist and realistically state that you would pursue another career, but the idiot that actually listens to your bad advice will hurt themselves and you won't assume any culpability for it. The fact that you managed to recommend everything from MD to DO to Caribbean on the basis of the flow of this thread chain shows that you have a very poor internal understanding of the competitiveness of the US medical cycle. The US MD cycle is competitive, but there are nuances in how you apply and represent yourself.

You were intelligent when you mentioned the OP consult a lawyer to understand the reality of their situation. Laws establish the framework of what is and what is not legal and hence what can be and cannot be acted upon. These are steadfast methods of procedure and how a system operates is just as essential as the information that is being conveyed. When I mentioned that the OP had a terrible excuse for getting a C-, I wasn't just inserting it as a piece of humor. I mean in the best case scenario, if his case was internally resolved then all I would be looking at would be a C- if the OP doesn't volunteer to shoot himself in the foot. Then again, I don't care about the IA debate because this situation I am 99% sure is artifice or there is a school out there that thinks cheating is a passable offense.

I took umbrage with your later comments, especially when you over generalize an issue like academic underperformance which is a topic that is still being studied by some of the biggest think tanks, researchers, and educators. It shows that you don't yourself understand how the environment of the islands can be a game changer for someone who is dependent on routines and the comforts of a first world country. It also indicates that you underestimate the comparative weight of a medical education and your response takes on a naive approach to such nuances.

If I were to be honest, that would an honest response. But if I were to be disingenuous, what about a vacay on those islands amiright? Nice.

 

[LizzyM]

From what you mentioned, this is not an institutional action. It was kept within the classroom. No action was taken by your school administration. Something similar happened in a statistics class during my freshman year. There was a project worth 3% of our grade that was meant to be worked on individually. More than half the class worked on it together, and they took 0% for it.

Consider this a blessing and kick in the ass. Everything happens for a reason. Think of this as the time to change your ways and make sure this never happens again. So you saw what the ramifications can be, and you got off where you can make positive changes in your life. Leave it off and never let this happen again.

The OP mentions a hearing and a panel. That suggests that it was an institutional action intended to handle an accusation of academic dishonesty.

 

[Sculptura]

@Sculptura If you want an honest response, you have no idea what you are typing when you recommend people go to Grenada or Dominica. I know you joke around with being a tourist and realistically state that you would pursue another career, but the idiot that actually listens to your bad advice will hurt themselves and you won't assume any culpability for it.

I'm recommending it as a last resort strictly because OP has a history of academic accomplishment. His high GPA and MCAT score indicate that the Caribbean gamble might be justified in his case (if he's dead-set on becoming a physician, that is). OP's situation is a very unique one.

Let me be explicit: The advice I'm giving OP is tailored to his situation -- his profile as a medical school applicant. If someone with a 492 MCAT and 3.0 GPA reads my advice to OP (3.8 GPA, 518 MCAT) and applies that advice to himself, then that's entirely on him.

 

[aformerstudent]

We must assume the best in this situation and not the worst like some of you are suggesting. As I pointed out before, this is not a big offense by any standard.

 

[Med Ed]

The OP mentions a hearing and a panel. That suggests that it was an institutional action intended to handle an accusation of academic dishonesty.

OP stated that the choice was either take the grade deduction and be done with it or go before a panel and exonerate himself at the expense of his friend. My impression was that the professor did not initiate any institutional proceedings since OP decided to simply take the hit.

But I could be wrong.

 

[Sculptura]

We must assume the best in this situation and not the worst like some of you are suggesting. As I pointed out before, this is not a big offense by any standard.

Hmm, maybe that's how adcoms at SGU evaluate candidates.

Adcoms at USMD programs don't give candidates the benefit of the doubt when it comes to serious disciplinary problems; they, quite understandably, don't want to risk accepting someone who would ultimately cause damage to the medical profession.

 

[vm26]

From what you mentioned, this is not an institutional action. It was kept within the classroom. No action was taken by your school administration. Something similar happened in a statistics class during my freshman year. There was a project worth 3% of our grade that was meant to be worked on individually. More than half the class worked on it together, and they took 0% for it.

Consider this a blessing and kick in the ass. Everything happens for a reason. Think of this as the time to change your ways and make sure this never happens again. So you saw what the ramifications can be, and you got off where you can make positive changes in your life. Leave it off and never let this happen again.

Agree. Stuff happens all the time at all levels to varying degrees. Sometimes it's indicative of an underlying character flaw that will invariably lead to problems in the future. Sometimes its not and its people making a choice they perceive to be easier at that moment. There were rumors/incriminating evidence about certain individuals cheating in my med school class. There are all now practicing physicians. I know of physicians that have excellent professional reputations that have apparently had affairs. It's not all back or white. Politicians love to be self-righteous when one of their colleagues gets caught up in a sticky situation. Its's interesting how some these same politicians eventually get outed themselves for similar behavior.

Not getting into med school may be a blessing in disguise. The financial/emotional investment is only climbing while the conditions of practice deteriorate. Cost to attend my in-state med school has gone up about 100K since 2007. Past year CMS cut reimbursement in my specialty by about 3% (doesn't seem a lot but given that this has been the trend for the past decade or so, these cuts add up). If you're stuck on healthcare, you may want to consider PA or RN->NP/CRNA. Much more high-yield.

 

[Planes2Doc]

The OP mentions a hearing and a panel. That suggests that it was an institutional action intended to handle an accusation of academic dishonesty.

Oh sorry, I must have missed that then.

Agree. Stuff happens all the time at all levels to varying degrees. Sometimes it's indicative of an underlying character flaw that will invariably lead to problems in the future. Sometimes its not and its people making a choice they perceive to be easier at that moment. There were rumors/incriminating evidence about certain individuals cheating in my med school class. There are all now practicing physicians. I know of physicians that have excellent professional reputations that have apparently had affairs. It's not all back or white. Politicians love to be self-righteous when one of their colleagues gets caught up in a sticky situation. Its's interesting how some these same politicians eventually get outed themselves for similar behavior.

Not getting into med school may be a blessing in disguise. The financial/emotional investment is only climbing while the conditions of practice deteriorate. Cost to attend my in-state med school has gone up about 100K since 2007. Past year CMS cut reimbursement in my specialty by about 3% (doesn't seem a lot but given that this has been the trend for the past decade or so, these cuts add up). If you're stuck on healthcare, you may want to consider PA or RN->NP/CRNA. Much more high-yield.

Very well said. As the saying goes: "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

Plus life isn't black and white. Just the other day my fellow colleague and I were talking about how he goes well above the speed limit every day to work. It would be a misdemeanor if he got caught.

 

[Sculptura]

If you're stuck on healthcare, you may want to consider PA or RN->NP/CRNA. Much more high-yield.

Do you seriously believe that lifetime compensation for NPs and PAs is greater than lifetime compensation for physicians?

 

[863168]

I'm recommending it as a last resort strictly because OP has a history of academic accomplishment. His high GPA and MCAT score indicate that the Caribbean gamble might be justified in his case (if he's dead-set on becoming a physician, that is). OP's situation is a very unique one. Let me be explicit: The advice I'm giving OP is tailored to his situation -- his profile as a medical school applicant. If someone with a 492 MCAT and 3.0 GPA reads my advice to OP (3.8 GPA, 518 MCAT) and applies that advice to himself, then that's entirely on him.

@gonnif This is what I mean when I responded to you two weeks ago that 40-50% percentage based statistical arguments were going to be so twisted that they would be construed in a positive light. It is human nature for humans to apply whatever little they know and to distort it to have a broader application than what it realistically covers. Did well in undergrad? Well, I'm an undergrad and undergrad is tough. They must be at least passable in medical school? What? I only need a 3.5 in my SMP in order to direct matriculate into the DO program? Hah. I have a 4.5 GPA and a 900 MCAT. Wait, my GPA is being scaled according to the class average? That's not fair. Medicine is not fair. Life isn't fair. Life is supposed to be fair. I had a 50% chance of being a doctor. I even flipped a coin before my first class and it came up heads, I totally called it.

@Sculptura You are recommending the Caribbean as a resort outside the only context it should exist in. You are justifying gambling as a trained scientist without giving weight to all the variables. You have not done your research. I am done explaining to you why your thinking is flawed for the reasons you think are presentable. I would never recommend anyone to gamble their lives because I would never accept their losses. Students who are students do not know the cost of their actions until they actually are forced to pay the piper not today, not tomorrow, but for several years down the road. Loans and the cost of education are not a joke, I could live for years from the bad advice I see other students give in terms of pushing their fellow SDNers to take on more school without respecting the fiscal burden that will weight them down. I thought I could persuade you to realize that the Caribbean only exists as an option because humans are free creatures, free to make their own decisions in life. Just as they are free to take their own lives with seemingly no rational meaning for it. Even a tailor understands that there is no need to dress up a piece of bad advice when it is bad advice. I think you should shadow a tailor to understand what it means to suit someone up before telling them to go to a resort.

 

[Med Ed]

I thought I could persuade you to realize that the Caribbean only exists as an option because humans are free creatures, free to make their own decisions in life. Just as they are free to take their own lives with seemingly no rational meaning for it.

WTF.

P.S. I'm with @Sculptura on this one.

 

[aaronrodgers]

Mmmm....im going to unwatch this thread.

 

[Med Ed]

Mmmm....im going to unwatch this thread.

A wise move.

 

[Sculptura]

Even a tailor understands that there is no need to dress up a piece of bad advice when it is bad advice. I think you should shadow a tailor to understand what it means to suit someone up before telling them to go to a resort.

...

Well, I think that's my cue to leave this thread. I hope OP got the feedback he was looking for.

Also, I wish Pina Colada the best of luck in his quest to beat out aformerstudent for the title of "Most Condescending SDN Member."

 

[bananafish94]

I don't get why people always suggest getting a lawyer in situations like this. There is no legal issue. No laws have been broken. It's the school making a decision based on their own rules.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[863168]

@Med Ed I think you can be a rigorous student, but I think that living in a third world country where provisions like electricity are not a consistent is a game changer. How can people living in a first world country their entire life understand the term first world amenities? Most of the justification for third world hardiness is based on first person fragmented experience such as going on a missionary trip to Mexico city for a week where more often than not work involves proselytizing and nothing like physical labor such as physically building up a new church and sleeping on the floor of what you are trying to build from the ground up.

I knew someone that dropped out because they went to the islands and their immune system treated the entire island as if it were an antigen. How can you predict that there would be a hiccup like that as a student? You can't. This combined with the fact that these programs do very little to disguise the fact that they are the equivalent of DeVry for doctors means that students must have a level of grit that is not guaranteed by their GPA or MCAT score. And when a student confesses they have grit, it could mean as little as staying up a night to cram for an exam to as much as having served in active combat in the marines. There are far too many case studies that indicate the majority of Americans are poor self-reporters when it comes to accuracy as they are unable to abstract reality from personal bias.

Simply put, there is never enough information to recommend with confidence that someone can be successful in the Caribbean when the Caribbean institutions themselves keep all their information in a black box. Why? I'd like to think that institutions that need to keep secrets are hiding an ugly truth. Perhaps I'm too cynical, it's what has kept me alive until now.

 

[Boz_med]

Thank you all again for the insight into my situation. I sincerely appreciate it. For clarity, there is no doubt that I received an institutional action...the professor involved the administration and from there I was given the option of grade deduction and no mark on transcript or let a panel hear my case. I stand by that I had no knowledge of the person copying me at the time. I learned of their situation (hard time during finals week) only after we were both accused of cheating. We had already taken 3 tests in the same class during the semester with no issues, so I had no suspicions or alarm for the potential of this situation. These last few months I have been at a loss of words for not fighting this. Some of you have brought up possible character flaws exposed from the situation and how I handled it. Of course you all can only understand the situation from how I portray it (which in itself is limited by my own perceptions and writing ability) but your criticisms of my character remain, and I am reflecting hard on them.

 

[aformerstudent]

Hmm, maybe that's how adcoms at SGU evaluate candidates.

Adcoms at USMD programs don't give candidates the benefit of the doubt when it comes to serious disciplinary problems; they, quite understandably, don't want to risk accepting someone who would ultimately cause damage to the medical profession.

Yeah, you're right. No US grad has ever "caused damage to the medical profession."

 

[Kpw101]

This quickly turned into from a helpful post to a ****ting contest between posters. With that said I think everything that had to be said was said:

1) You'll have to report it to schools.
2) This will severely diminish your chances at an acceptance but you're still welcome to try.
3) The Caribbean is extremely, extremely risky but you're still welcome to try.
4) It's not the end of the world, there are plenty of other rewarding careers if this doesn't work out in the end. Judging by your stats you're a smart individual and I am sure you'll find success somewhere.

I sincerely feel bad for your situation and hope the best for you. What's done is done, whatever you do just try to look forward. I wish you good fortune and I hope it all works out in the end.

 

[liquidcrawler]

Serious question, if there is no mark on OP's transcript and they mark "no" on institutional action, how would medical schools find out? I seriously doubt medical schools call every matriculants undergraduate school and ask "hey, did so and so ever have an IA be it freshman with beer in the dorms, cheating, or weed?"

I only ask because I have a friend in a similar situation, but she ran into some shoplifting problems with the police (stupid move on her part, but there is a lot of extenuating circumstances). She was already accepted somewhere and decided to not report it to the school she is matriculating too. The charges against her were dropped, and I see no way of her school ever finding out. Though I'm not sure if dropped charges would come up in a back ground check.

 

[aformerstudent]

Serious question, if there is no mark on OP's transcript and they mark "no" on institutional action, how would medical schools find out? I seriously doubt medical schools call every matriculants undergraduate school and ask "hey, did so and so ever have an IA be it freshman with beer in the dorms, cheating, or weed?"

I only ask because I have a friend in a similar situation, but she ran into some shoplifting problems with the police (stupid move on her part, but there is a lot of extenuating circumstances). She was already accepted somewhere and decided to not report it to the school she is matriculating too. The charges against her were dropped, and I see no way of her school ever finding out. Though I'm not sure if dropped charges would come up in a back ground check.

They won't find out. Trust me. As long as nothing is listed, I wouldn't worry about it. Now if you did something really really bad, then that's on your conscience but petty things like cheating on a non-standardized test are insignificant in my book.

 

[liquidcrawler]

They won't find out. Trust me. As long as nothing is listed, I wouldn't worry about it. Now if you did something really really bad, then that's on your conscience but petty things like cheating on a non-standardized test are insignificant in my book.

Than I don't see why OP would ever mark yes to that question. I am not condoning cheating, but I guarantee 90% of pre-meds have committed morally grey or illegal actions. I don't have numbers to support my case, but I think we can safely assume 50% + of pre-meds underage drink, which is illegal. A good portion have probably smoked weed, also illegal. And another good portion, in a moment of weakness, briefly glanced at a neighbor's test hoping they were on the same question. Between these things, jaywalking, public urination (drunk on a Friday night), acquiring alcohol for your underage friends, grocery store grazing, leeching off unsecured wifi networks, online piracy, littering, getting paid under the table and not reporting it on taxes, or even doing a rolling stop at a stop sign - we all have committed actions deemed publicly immoral or illegal by the law.

I don't think any of these actions should preclude a person from a medical profession or be any indication of a lack of moral character and judgement. If people can be guilt free not reporting any of the above actions on an app, maybe OP can be guilt free marking "no" on the IA.

 

[vm26]

Do you seriously believe that lifetime compensation for NPs and PAs is greater than lifetime compensation for physicians?

Not sure lifetime but when you factor in 4 years undergrad, 4 years med school, PGY training (including ridiculous hours during residency/fellowship), debt burden, stress and quality of life during training, things begin to even out...Also some CRNAs/NPs/PAs already make close to primary care money...In the years to come I would not be surprised if mid-levels gain more autonomy and become more or less independent

 

[Goro]

Serious question, if there is no mark on OP's transcript and they mark "no" on institutional action, how would medical schools find out? I seriously doubt medical schools call every matriculants undergraduate school and ask "hey, did so and so ever have an IA be it freshman with beer in the dorms, cheating, or weed?"

I only ask because I have a friend in a similar situation, but she ran into some shoplifting problems with the police (stupid move on her part, but there is a lot of extenuating circumstances). She was already accepted somewhere and decided to not report it to the school she is matriculating too. The charges against her were dropped, and I see no way of her school ever finding out. Though I'm not sure if dropped charges would come up in a back ground check.

See my explanation in an earlier post.

 

[aformerstudent]

Than I don't see why OP would ever mark yes to that question. I am not condoning cheating, but I guarantee 90% of pre-meds have committed morally grey or illegal actions. I don't have numbers to support my case, but I think we can safely assume 50% + of pre-meds underage drink, which is illegal. A good portion have probably smoked weed, also illegal. And another good portion, in a moment of weakness, briefly glanced at a neighbor's test hoping they were on the same question. Between these things, jaywalking, public urination (drunk on a Friday night), acquiring alcohol for your underage friends, grocery store grazing, leeching off unsecured wifi networks, online piracy, littering, getting paid under the table and not reporting it on taxes, or even doing a rolling stop at a stop sign - we all have committed actions deemed publicly immoral or illegal by the law.

I don't think any of these actions should preclude a person from a medical profession or be any indication of a lack of moral character and judgement. If people can be guilt free not reporting any of the above actions on an app, maybe OP can be guilt free marking "no" on the IA.

You are a very wise person. Isn't it funny how some people just don't see it that way?

I was totally going to bring up the public urination lol because I know there is at least one UPENN Orthopedic Surgeon, my undergrad classmate, who got a citation as a junior. I guess we should go drag him out into the street and flog him mercilessly right?

 

[Med Ed]

Simply put, there is never enough information to recommend with confidence that someone can be successful in the Caribbean when the Caribbean institutions themselves keep all their information in a black box. Why? I'd like to think that institutions that need to keep secrets are hiding an ugly truth. Perhaps I'm too cynical, it's what has kept me alive until now.

This isn't mysterious. The primary reason students go Caribbean is academic underperformance. The primary reason students leave Caribbean is academic underperformance. OP's problem isn't academic underperformance.

 

[aformerstudent]

The primary reason students go Caribbean is academic underperformance.

You are basing this on what? Your own bias?

 

[wizzed101]

They won't find out. Trust me. As long as nothing is listed, I wouldn't worry about it. Now if you did something really really bad, then that's on your conscience but petty things like cheating on a non-standardized test are insignificant in my book.

Nothing is listed where? Even if there was no record showed on the transcript, how can you be sure that there was no record anywhere? What if the disciplinary committee kept dossiers? If a med school sends an inquiry to the OP's school administrators, what will be the reply?
"Yea let's invest 300k on that. Trust me, I'm an internet enthusiast."

 

[LizzyM]

Getting caught speeding, drinking while underage, smoking weed, having a prohibited electrical appliance in the dorm, none of those are going keep you out of medical school.

Cheating, stealing from fellow students or from patients, sex crimes, domestic violence, crimes against children or the elderly would be "game over" as best as I can tell. There is just no way that schools want to take a chance on someone with that kind of history given the risk of recidivism.

 

[aformerstudent]

Getting caught speeding, drinking while underage, smoking weed, having a prohibited electrical appliance in the dorm, none of those are going keep you out of medical school.

Cheating, stealing from fellow students or from patients, sex crimes, domestic violence, crimes against children or the elderly would be "game over" as best as I can tell. There is just no way that schools want to take a chance on someone with that kind of history given the risk of recidivism.

Cheating on a test should not be in the same category as sex crimes or domestic violence, or crimes against children. I would rethink that if I were you.

 

[MareNostrummm]

Cheating on a test should not be in the same category as sex crimes or domestic violence, or crimes against children. I would rethink that if I were you.

When applying for professional programs (medicine, law, pharmacy etc) cheating is one of the highest offenses. Its pretty much drilled into your head at the beginning of every midterm and final... and all throughout high school.

 

[aformerstudent]

When applying for professional programs (medicine, law, pharmacy etc) cheating is one of the highest offenses. Its pretty much drilled into your head at the beginning of every midterm and final... and all throughout high school.

Cheating is a gray area. That's what I'm getting at. My advice to the OP was to move on and move FORWARD.

Sex crimes, crimes against children, and things to that effect are NOT gray areas. LizzyM seems to have bunched cheating in with those categories which is either an error or poor judgment.

 

[MonkeyArrow]

Cheating is a gray area. That's what I'm getting at. My advice to the OP was to move on and move FORWARD.

How is cheating a gray area? I think pretty much everyone would agree that cheating is wrong.

 

[numbersloth]

How is cheating a gray area? I think pretty much everyone would agree that cheating is wrong.

I agree that cheating is wrong and that the OP has made a serious mistake. Their medical career is over for the time being, unless they can somehow show over time that they have redeemed them-self.

However, I do think cheating is a gray area in terms of intention. For example, the OP let his friend cheat because his friend was having a really tough time (who knows, maybe their mom just died). Not saying it justifies it, but the intention wasn't malicious.

Meanwhile, molesting a child is malicious. You are hurting someone else for your own pleasure, black and white.

Still -- cheating is wrong and should not be tolerated.

 

[catmario]

I don't want to be rude, but this story seems to be a whole lot of co*k and bull.

1. "... we were both accused of cheating. At the time I didn't take the situation as serious as it was"
what

2. "and I understood how my friend could be pushed to cheat (it was a tough time for him during finals week) but of course it doesn't justify his actions."
how kind

3. "I had to choose between accepting the accusation from which I would receive a grade deduction (from an A- to a C-) and have no mark on my transcript OR speak against my friend at a hearing before a panel and the professor accusing us (my friend was ready accept the blame and vindicate me) . I chose the former option, the thought of speaking against this person and a hearing was pretty frightening and the fact that we are both part of a close friend group made things less simple. I know, very poor decision. but it's done. I now have to live with it."
this makes no sense.
i presume your friend was already in the axe for cheating.your getting a c with no mark or speaking against your friend in a trial made no difference on that regard, so i don't see how your action was helping anyone.


4. "At this point, it's either you believe this story or believe that I cheated."
lol

"I hate cheating, I hate dishonesty. Character traits of honesty, respect, understanding, and working hard are what I strive to uphold."
this is in direct contradiction of statements 1, 2, and 3.

 

[MareNostrummm]

Cheating is a gray area. That's what I'm getting at. My advice to the OP was to move on and move FORWARD.

Sex crimes, crimes against children, and things to that effect are NOT gray areas. LizzyM seems to have bunched cheating in with those categories which is either an error or poor judgment.

Cheating isn't a gray area in the context of medical school admissions.

Its pretty surprising that there are so many people in here defending the guy. He straight up allowed his friend to cheat off him yet a good amount of people here are saying its just a lapse in judgement and okay.. This guy probably has done it several times in the past and maybe even cheated off one of his friends in a "I scratch your back you scratch mine" kinda way... You let me see #43 and I'll show you #34... He just happened to get caught this time.

 

[liquidcrawler]

Getting caught speeding, drinking while underage, smoking weed, having a prohibited electrical appliance in the dorm, none of those are going keep you out of medical school.

Cheating, stealing from fellow students or from patients, sex crimes, domestic violence, crimes against children or the elderly would be "game over" as best as I can tell. There is just no way that schools want to take a chance on someone with that kind of history given the risk of recidivism.

The key moral difference in your listed cases is that most of them have agents actively harming and undermining another human being i.e. abuse, stealing, etc. I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that allowing someone to cheat off your work is actively harming another person, but rather only harming the person who allowed the cheating because the fruits of their academic labor are unrightfully taken from them. Sure, you may see the person cheating is actively harmed because they receive an underserved grade, but to put that in the same category as abuse, both sexual and physical, is unreasonable.