Is only COMLEX good enough?

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Prestige, money, and life-work balance... I work in the hospital as a nurse for 10 years in the OR, and I can tell you that surgeons are super powerful. Why? They bring revenue.
I have many horror stories to tell you guys. If you think all doctors are the same, you will soon learn that it is not true during your residency.
 
Ultimax said:
Prestige, money, and life-work balance... I work in the hospital as a nurse for 10 years in the OR, and I can tell you that surgeons are super powerful. Why? They bring revenue.
I have many horror stories to tell you guys. If you think all doctors are the same, you will soon learn that it is not true during your residency.
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That's assuming all high step 1 people go into surgery or other super competitive specialities. In fact, lots of people with high step 1 go in IM and lots of people with average step 1 go into surgery.

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DrStephenStrange said:
What I said is true as well which is surprising nonetheless. I thought a 472 MCAT would fail med school. I guess this assumption was wrong. Yes higher MCAT may be associated with high scores. But why does it matter if someone got a 210 vs 280. Both people are Doctors? Also, does 280 translates to better patient care?

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It matters because that’s what we are talking about...

Someone talked about how they had issues with MSU saying that a low first time MCAT might be indicative that someone won’t do very well on Step, and it’s been shown that the MSU statement is 100% valid. There are many studies documenting a direct correlation between MCAT and Step scores. Depending on the study this fluctuates from an R-value of 0.4 to 0.6. That is a moderate correlation that should be considered by students taking Step. No it is far from the end all be all, but it’s definitely a factor.

So again, don’t move the goal posts.
 
It would be interesting to see the USMLE stats for schools like NYU whose median MCAT score is 522. According to that graph a 522 MCAT would put you above 240 on the step 1, and I highly doubt more than half of any NYU classes are scoring above 240.

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jkdoctor said:
Nonsense.
A 250 USMLE score is a success.
Most students would consider a 205 USMLE score to be a disappointment rather than a success.
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So basically you're saying the 80-90% of people that are not scoring in the top 10-20% on the USMLE have failed. That's insane. You know as much as I would not like to see the USMLE switch to P/F, this kind of thinking makes me think it wouldn't be a totally bad idea either.
 
The problem with P/F is that the reputation of the school matters even more, that means those uber competitive residencies will be reserved for top schools, dont you think it will be more unfair for the average students? At least now the average students have a chance if they do well.
 
DrStephenStrange said:
So basically you're saying the 80-90% of people that are not scoring in the top 10-20% on the USMLE have failed. That's insane. You know as much as I would not like to see the USMLE switch to P/F, this kind of thinking makes me think it wouldn't be a totally bad idea either.
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Gross distortion of my post. I never mentioned failed. Would you be happy with a passing score of 195? 195 is the 5th percentile.
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Ultimax said:
The problem with P/F is that the reputation of the school matters even more, that means those uber competitive residencies will be reserved for top schools, dont you think it will be more unfair for the average students? At least now the average students have a chance if they do well.
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I know that already.
 
jkdoctor said:
Gross distortion of my post. I never mentioned failed. Would you be happy with a passing score of 195? 195 is the 5th percentile.
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I wouldn't wanna barely pass, but I would be happy with a 220 which is 29th percentile. That wouldn't be failure in my book.
 
jkdoctor said:
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I think its important to look at were the vast majority of were people fall on this. Sure 518+ MCAT people are gunna do well on boards (240+) but look at the 500-510 scores. A 500 and a 510 is the difference between an MD and a DO acceptance but only the difference between a 220 and a 230 on step. Most medical school matriculants are gunna fall in this range and the step disparity is not very much.
 
jkdoctor said:
Nonsense.
A 250 USMLE score is a success.
Most students would consider a 205 USMLE score to be a disappointment rather than a success.
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a 205 and 250 are both outliers in terms of score. Like I said earlier most people in the 500-510 range hit the 220-230 range on step. Most people would not consider that a disappointment. But a 502'er will likely end up at a DO school with a 220-230 and a 510'er will likely get MD with a 220-230 and have significantly different residency opportunities. Even though, based on the data you posted, their MCAT score do not predict much of a difference in "success" on step.
 
hungrydoc710 said:
As you stated - those that don't have high MCAT's don't want there to be a correlation. I'm starting to believe you had a higher MCAT and also are reaching for a more signifacant correlation than there actually is.

Good luck with your studies.
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LOL. I had a sub 510 MCAT and > 3.8 GPA, and I didn't want to waste a year re-taking the MCAT, so that's why I'm at a DO school. You're butt hurt about real hard data that multiple posters have shared with you...that's on you, don't try to paint me as "someone who must've done well on the MCAT". All I said is that if you put 100% of your time and effort into the MCAT and got below a 500, you're at a higher risk of not doing too hot on Step. As others have pointed out, passing does not equal doing well to most people. I didn't say that if you got a low score you're automatically going to do poorly and if you had a high score you're automatically going to do well, so calm down.
 
fldoctorgirl said:
LOL. I had a sub 510 MCAT and > 3.8 GPA, and I didn't want to waste a year re-taking the MCAT, so that's why I'm at a DO school. You're butt hurt about real hard data that multiple posters have shared with you...that's on you, don't try to paint me as "someone who must've done well on the MCAT". All I said is that if you put 100% of your time and effort into the MCAT and got below a 500, you're at a higher risk of not doing too hot on Step. As others have pointed out, passing does not equal doing well to most people. I didn't say that if you got a low score you're automatically going to do poorly and if you had a high score you're automatically going to do well, so calm down.
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I'm not "butt hurt" as you so graciously put it. Why would I be? According to that cute little chart I'm at a 225, which I'd have no problem taking so I could rid myself of the stress I'll have for the next 8 months.

I'm simply challenging the data and overall idea that MCAT and USMLE are correlated to a high degree. That's all.
 
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hungrydoc710 said:
I'm not "butt hurt" as you so graciously put it. Why would I be? According to that cute little chart I'm at a 225, which I'd have no problem taking so I could rid myself of the stress I'll have for the next 8 months.

I'm simply challenging the data and overall idea that MCAT and USMLE are correlated to a high degree. That's all.
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The constant moving of the goalposts is getting old...
 
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Guys, lets not insult each other. I think this thread should be closed. You get out how much you put in. Once we are in medical schools, we are at the same playing field.
 
I moved to the US in 2011; fresh start, new language, ESL, culture shock, college, and the whole 9 yards. 4 years later, 2015, in senior year, I sat the new MCAT for the first time and got 487. I really have a hard time believing that my first try is what is going to predict my USMLE. 4 more years later, today, I would say my communication, comprehension, thinking skills are all so much better than when I took my first MCAT. That's the reason I have a hard time believing it can have such a high predictive value. What's the p-value on that? Sure, with a high MCAT, yes, you could certainly predict you're gonna do well on the USMLE, but there's so much that might come into play when someone doesn't do well on the MCAT, especially on their first attempt, that I don't think that alone can predict how well they do on USMLE. I'm gonna stop arguing now though. I take boards in June, so in a few months, I'll let you guys know if I defeated the odds.

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DrStephenStrange said:
It would be interesting to see the USMLE stats for schools like NYU whose median MCAT score is 522. According to that graph a 522 MCAT would put you above 240 on the step 1, and I highly doubt more than half of any NYU classes are scoring above 240.

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I wouldn't be so quick to doubt that.

Many of the T-20s have an average Step 1 in the high 230s to mid 240s.

DrStephenStrange said:
I moved to the US in 2011; fresh start, new language, ESL, culture shock, college, and the whole 9 yards. 4 years later, 2015, in senior year, I sat the new MCAT for the first time and got 487. I really have a hard time believing that my first try is what is going to predict my USMLE. 4 more years later, today, I would say my communication, comprehension, thinking skills are all so much better than when I took my first MCAT. That's the reason I have a hard time believing it can have such a high predictive value. What's the p-value on that? Sure, with a high MCAT, yes, you could certainly predict you're gonna do well on the USMLE, but there's so much that might come into play when someone doesn't do well on the MCAT, especially on their first attempt, that I don't think that alone can predict how well they do on USMLE. I'm gonna stop arguing now though. I take boards in June, so in a few months, I'll let you guys know if I defeated the odds.

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The average MCAT taker isn't a recent immigrant from Haiti who just learned English. Most of the people who take this test are middle and upper middle class americans with English as their first language - the people who are getting 480s and 490s by and large aren't bombing because of a language barrier.

Again, I don't think anyone is saying that a bad MCAT definitely means a bad USMLE. However, standardised test taking is a skill and how you perform on standardised tests in general does have some predictive value regarding how you will likely perform in the future.
 
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People just don’t like the idea that their past poor performance puts them at risk for future poor performance. Population statistics don’t predict individual scenarios but this argument being given that there isn’t a correlation that puts certain groups in the “at risk” bin, and that they shouldn’t give that a consideration, is asinine.
 
Personal anecdote, definitely an outlier: 499 MCAT, 246 Step 1. You’ll see this occasionally but I think it’s pretty rare. I didn’t take Biochem before the MCAT so I think that’s why my score was so low. I didn’t want to retake it so here I am at a mediocre DO school
 
Mercy this thread got all the premeds in a huffy. Sorry the data hurts your feelings. Now get to work trying to prove it wrong.

Those of you who thought the MCAT means nothing, sorry your wrong. Its a validated test and its useful for the purpose it was made.
 
ritts said:
Personal anecdote, definitely an outlier: 499 MCAT, 246 Step 1. You’ll see this occasionally but I think it’s pretty rare. I didn’t take Biochem before the MCAT so I think that’s why my score was so low. I didn’t want to retake it so here I am at a mediocre DO school
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There you go, hard work and determination can overcome mountains. I bet you studied much less for the MCAT than Step also. I know I did.
 
ritts said:
Personal anecdote, definitely an outlier: 499 MCAT, 246 Step 1. You’ll see this occasionally but I think it’s pretty rare. I didn’t take Biochem before the MCAT so I think that’s why my score was so low. I didn’t want to retake it so here I am at a mediocre DO school
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I have one too:
31 MCAT (~511 on new test)
211 step 1

Dont be me
 
jkdoctor said:
The advice "Take Step 1." is simplistic and not always correct imo. I suggest you look at the info from Michigan State here: https://com.msu.edu/Students/Academic_Career_Guidance/Boards_and_Prep/Board Prep Documents/COMLEX - USMLE.pdf
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Respectfully, I will not read any of that because it is immaterial.






OP, there is absolutely no excuse not to take Step 1, unless you are failing practice exams/barely passing practice exams/likelihood of not scoring >210 is low, want to throw all your chips in the pile for a specific program that takes COMLEX still and values it (I know someone doing this for EM, and is focusing on basically on less than 10 programs, if you like those odds, then be my guest).

If anything, my view on this matter after studying and taking Step 1 (and scoring >240) and also speaking directly with PDs has only exponentially reinforced my previous belief that Step 1 is necessary to be a competitive applicant, no matter the specialty or geographic location.

Good Luck!

Edit: OP, I feel very strongly about this topic. If I was evaluating an applicant, who only took COMLEX I would think then, as I do now -- they are not as prepared as others to be ready to pass their respective board exams for licensing. Why would I take the risk as a PD or APD?
 
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Doctor_Strange said:
Respectfully, I will not read any of that because it is immaterial.






OP, there is absolutely no excuse not to take Step 1, unless you are failing practice exams/barely passing practice exams/likelihood of not scoring >210 is low, want to throw all your chips in the pile for a specific program that takes COMLEX still and values it (I know someone doing this for EM, and is focusing on basically on less than 10 programs, if you like those odds, then be my guest).

If anything, my view on this matter after studying and taking Step 1 (and scoring >240) and also speaking directly with PDs has only exponentially reinforced my previous belief that Step 1 is necessary to be a competitive applicant, no matter the specialty or geographic location.

Good Luck!

Edit: OP, I feel very strongly about this topic. If I was evaluating an applicant, who only took COMLEX I would think then, as I do now -- they are not as prepared as others to be ready to pass their respective board exams for licensing. Why would I take the risk as a PD or APD?
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The reasons why we as DO students are forced to take both COMLEX and USMLE are because many PDs can't interpret the results of COMLEX, plus the fact the NBOME keep changing the exam, which in turns change the average and the percentile ranking every year. Another reason would be to be able to be placed more or less on the same playing field as our MD counterparts. Otherwise, I thought both tests were testing the same exact things besides OMM, so why do you feel strongly that someone with only COMLEX is not as prepared to be able to pass licensing boards? That sound absurd to me. People with only COMLEX go to residency and pass their licensing boards more than 90% of the time just like people that only take the USMLE.
 
DrStephenStrange said:
The reasons why we as DO students are forced to take both COMLEX and USMLE are because many PDs can't interpret the results of COMLEX, plus the fact the NBOME keep changing the exam, which in turns change the average and the percentile ranking every year. Another reason would be to be able to be placed more or less on the same playing field as our MD counterparts. Otherwise, I thought both tests were testing the same exact things besides OMM, so why do you feel strongly that someone with only COMLEX is not as prepared to be able to pass licensing boards? That sound absurd to me. People with only COMLEX go to residency and pass their licensing boards more than 90% of the time just like people that only take the USMLE.
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I'm not saying that. I'm saying that's what PDs believe with respect to Step 1 scores. Most can't or don't want to interpret COMLEX scores. Do I personally think someone who just took COMLEX Level I can take the ABIM and pass that (the one MDs take), yeah of course I do. But lots of PDs probably would feel safer to take an applicant with a good Step score instead and not worry about whether or not that COMLEX will be enough. Even one failure of a resident is a big enough headache for a PD. These programs tout their pass % to interviewees all the time. So, I don't blame them for being biased against COMLEX unless the PD belongs to a former AOA program and may have more insight into COMLEX correlations.
 
Dualing Dr. Strange's , only one can be right! We need a post to the ban kind of fight to decide.
 
DrStephenStrange said:
What I said is true as well which is surprising nonetheless. I thought a 472 MCAT would fail med school. I guess this assumption was wrong. Yes higher MCAT may be associated with high scores. But why does it matter if someone got a 210 vs 280. Both people are Doctors? Also, does 280 translates to better patient care?

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Click to expand...
Most 472s would fail med school within the first year and never get to take USMLE Step 1. Students who fail out and never take Step 1 are not included in the Step 1 data.
 
Doctor_Strange said:
Respectfully, I will not read any of that because it is immaterial.






OP, there is absolutely no excuse not to take Step 1, unless you are failing practice exams/barely passing practice exams/likelihood of not scoring >210 is low, want to throw all your chips in the pile for a specific program that takes COMLEX still and values it (I know someone doing this for EM, and is focusing on basically on less than 10 programs, if you like those odds, then be my guest).

If anything, my view on this matter after studying and taking Step 1 (and scoring >240) and also speaking directly with PDs has only exponentially reinforced my previous belief that Step 1 is necessary to be a competitive applicant, no matter the specialty or geographic location.

Good Luck!

Edit: OP, I feel very strongly about this topic. If I was evaluating an applicant, who only took COMLEX I would think then, as I do now -- they are not as prepared as others to be ready to pass their respective board exams for licensing. Why would I take the risk as a PD or APD?
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Would really appreciate any data to show that residents who took comlex-only are more strongly associated with failing ABIM boards.

Can you also show me data where programs that accept comlex only applicants have a lower ABIM board pass rate than those who do not look at DO applicants who have both USMLE and step?
 
AlteredScale said:
Would really appreciate any data to show that residents who took comlex-only are more strongly associated with failing ABIM boards.

Can you also show me data where programs that accept comlex only applicants have a lower ABIM board pass rate than those who do not look at DO applicants who have both USMLE and step?
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I wish that data was public and available. I don't have it. Again, do I think using COMLEX or Step 1 as a marker for passing a licensing exam for a given specialty is the best correlate out there? Yeah, I do actually. Only because nothing out there in medical education seems to exist which has a better, equally objective, and widespread predictor. Do I think the ITEs offered in a given specialty is the best predictor for passing that respective board exam? Yeah, duh. But, PDs don't have anything else to go by to find what correlates to those ITEs than Step I/Level I or Step 2/Level 2. My suspicion is that the correlation is low-to-moderate to begin with regarding both COMLEX Level 1 and Step 1 (lower though, most likely, for Level 1) (actually there is research out there I'm too lazy to search for it on PubMed)

So my point is, if I were a PD, I would of course prefer Step 1 just because of a higher sample size to make correlates between that exam, the ITEs, and even the licensing exams. I'm not saying its perfect. I am not even saying its fair. But, I am saying that it is likely the best quantitative variable out there to help PDs screen candidates and make an objective determination of an applicant. Further, if I were a PD and it was between Level I and Step 1, that is also a no-brainer. I'm not sure what the controversy is to be honest. So, to your underlying point, do doctors who only took the COMLEXs fail the ABIM more so than their MD peers who went through the Steps? I don't know, but I would guess probably and even at that it could be statistically insignificant.
 
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