Is PharmD going to become the most irrelevant doctorate degree?

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

The problem with pharmacy is that the curriculum taught in pharmacy schools gives you no real world, practical/translatable job skills. If you survey any random pharmacist they'd probably tell you that they are using only 5-10% of what they learned in pharmacy school - in other words, most of the curriculum is fluff.

The implication of this is that EVEN IF pharmacists get provider status, can bill at 100% of what an MD bills at, provide enhanced clinical services and are allowed do anything else you can dream of, the 400,000-500,000 pharmacists who have already graduated and are in the work force (whether employed or unemployed) are fundamentally underequipped with the requisite skills to pivot into those types of roles, and studying for a board certification isn't going to change that. Remember, you are the exact same person right as you walk up the aisle to get married and right after you say "I do." So even widespread reforms within the profession will not impact anything for 99% of pharmacists.

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[mentos]

The problem with pharmacy is that the curriculum taught in pharmacy schools gives you no real world, practical/translatable job skills. If you survey any random pharmacist they'd probably tell you that they are using only 5-10% of what they learned in pharmacy school - in other words, most of the curriculum is fluff.

The implication of this is that EVEN IF pharmacists get provider status, can bill at 100% of what an MD bills at, provide enhanced clinical services and are allowed do anything else you can dream of, the 400,000-500,000 pharmacists who have already graduated and are in the work force (whether employed or unemployed) are fundamentally underequipped with the requisite skills to pivot into those types of roles, and studying for a board certification isn't going to change that. Remember, you are the exact same person right as you walk up the aisle to get married and right after you say "I do." So even widespread reforms within the profession will not impact anything for 99% of pharmacists.

The entire curriculum should be self studying RXPrep for 3 months for under $200. What does the other $199,800 pay for? It goes straight into the dean's pockets.

 

[RxEvileye]

Getting a pharmacy residency is way more subjective than medical residency. Another factor I forgot to add is personality and whether the RPD likes the candidate or not.Pharmacy residency should require a standardized exam prior to applications. Adding a standardized exam could minimize the nepotism for the pharmacy residency admission process and could increase match rates. The match rate for pharmacy residency is 60%, which is less than USMD at 80%.

Medical school is getting rid of STEP1 score because the score does not correlate with ones performance in a clinical setting. Medical students still have SHELF exams, STEP2 CK, and STEP2 CS to take to make them competitive. Getting rid of STEP1 is however a direct attack on DO students and IMGs as it will be way harder for them to match into competitive residencies like Surgery or Derm, but DOs could still maybe match into IM specialities, IM, Peds, FM with high STEP2 scores, Pass STEP2 CS, And score high on SHELF exams. There is still objective tests for medicine, where as in pharmacy, there is not.

Bottom line STEP2 CK, STEP2 CS and SHELF scores are going to replace STEP1 for a medical student getting matched.

Not sure how medical residency is less subjective, other than the Step 1 score filters. The pharmacy residency process with multiple somewhat-independent interview stations (clinical/presentation/regular/etc.) is not the norm in medical residency interviews, which are often just regular interview sessions. For the initial screen, pharmacy residencies usually use a grading rubric, with many points other than the personal statement/LOR/CV quality not being subjective at all.

You may be interested to read this MD Bryan Carmody's blog, who counters many arguments related to Step exams:

The Sheriff of Sodium

Salty about medical education

thesheriffofsodium.com

Like that DO/IMGs are disproportionately affected by the decision to eliminate Step 1 scores:

I agree with you that test scores should be correlated to actual performance before being used as a gatekeeper. I would resist allowing something like the PCOA (remember enough chemical structures etc.) to become an indicator of whether someone should get a residency. NAPLEX is standardized but much of the knowledge people do not use in any setting, and it has been built and validated as a pass/no-pass exam.

 

[deleted562805]

Not sure how medical residency is less subjective, other than the Step 1 score filters. The pharmacy residency process with multiple somewhat-independent interview stations (clinical/presentation/regular/etc.) is not the norm in medical residency interviews, which are often just regular interview sessions. For the initial screen, pharmacy residencies usually use a grading rubric, with many points other than the personal statement/LOR/CV quality not being subjective at all.

You may be interested to read this MD Bryan Carmody's blog, who counters many arguments related to Step exams:

The Sheriff of Sodium

Salty about medical education

thesheriffofsodium.com

Like that DO/IMGs are disproportionately affected by the decision to eliminate Step 1 scores:

I agree with you that test scores should be correlated to actual performance before being used as a gatekeeper. I would resist allowing something like the PCOA (remember enough chemical structures etc.) to become an indicator of whether someone should get a residency. NAPLEX is standardized but much of the knowledge people do not use in any setting, and it has been built and validated as a pass/no-pass exam.

I was thinking more like a mini version of BCPS or PSAP as a filter. Yeah, you make a point. The patient presentation is objective and solving patient case is objective.

I was wonder who will be more negatively impacted by the loss of STEP scores, DO or Caribbean IMG?

 

[LivingMyBestLife]

Become? It already is irrelevant. Having it on my resume got me no jobs in 10 months. I have a better chance of getting job at this point using my bio degree than my pharmd probably. OP if you're concerned just turn around and dont look back! Trust me, you wont regret it.

Honestly I had to leave off my pharmacy degree to get a stocking job at Walmart. The pay is 11 USD / hour but I get good benefits. So a PharmD can be more of a liability than benefit in some circumstances.

 

[PikminOC]

From a business standpoint, we're only viewed as expensive overhead.

In hospitals, they consider physicians to be expensive overhead too...

 

[Xenophylia]

In hospitals, they consider physicians to be expensive overhead too...

That is only going to get worse with the rise of midlevels. Now that there is a "cheaper" option it's inevitable that physician jobs will be replaced, especially if many states approve autonomy.... Corporate admins always want the cheapest option, regardless of quality......

 

[Xenophylia]

Honestly I had to leave off my pharmacy degree to get a stocking job at Walmart. The pay is 11 USD / hour but I get good benefits. So a PharmD can be more of a liability than benefit in some circumstances.

Just curious- did you even mention having 2 college degrees when you applied to Walmart? I would think they'd be too scared you'd leave if something in your field came up to hire you. I could see myself doing something like that just for the benefits when I retire......

 

[Xenophylia]

I have a friend on night shift at Wally World who does the floors- he always has fun stories to tell about idiotic management etc. But doesn't sound stressful..... Also think it would be fun to work somewhere like PetSmart as I love animals. Probably tough to get full time with benefits though.....

 

[mentos]

In hospitals, they consider physicians to be expensive overhead too...

Physicians are not overhead, they generate profit for the hospital. Each hospital bill and doctor's office bill charges the patient hundreds or even thousands of dollars to see a doctor for 15 minutes. If you see multiple doctors, you'll get charged for seeing each one. There are no charges on the bill for pharmacist services or labor, only for the drugs themselves.

From a business standpoint, pharmacists are similar to secretaries who don't provide any billable services. They do not generate profit, instead they cost the business lots of money.

 

[Xenophylia]

I agree- that makes pharmacy WORSE. No argument there.... And at least secretaries make the bigwigs jobs easier....

 

[PikminOC]

Physicians are not overhead, they generate profit for the hospital. Each hospital bill and doctor's office bill charges the patient hundreds or even thousands of dollars to see a doctor for 15 minutes. If you see multiple doctors, you'll get charged for seeing each one. There are no charges on the bill for pharmacist services or labor, only for the drugs themselves.

From a business standpoint, pharmacists are similar to secretaries who don't provide any billable services. They do not generate profit, instead they cost the business lots of money.

I'm just telling you this is the way bean counters see physicians. This is why they love mid-levels. They can replace the cogs with cheaper cogs

 

[mentos]

I'm just telling you this is the way bean counters see physicians. This is why they love mid-levels. They can replace the cogs with cheaper cogs

I agree that mid-levels are cheaper than physicians but they still bill for labor and services which generate a net profit. Whereas pharmacists are a net expense.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

In hospitals, they consider physicians to be expensive overhead too...

I think this is why most physician specialists at any given hospital are contractors rather than full-time, salaried employees. If anything, most of the time the salaried employees are the primary care docs (IM, peds etc.) because they are much cheaper to pay full benefits to than surgeons, anesthesiologists, radiologists etc.

 

[deleted562805]

That is only going to get worse with the rise of midlevels. Now that there is a "cheaper" option it's inevitable that physician jobs will be replaced, especially if many states approve autonomy.... Corporate admins always want the cheapest option, regardless of quality......

I think it will backfire on corporate admins to hire more NPs and PAs to replace Physicians. Same thing happened with tech companies. It backfired when they were hiring foreign graduates instead of American graduates. I think it will backfire when patients file more lawsuits towards midlevels for poor management of care and there are patients who refuse care from a mid level practitioner.

Also, I doubt NPs and PAs will replace doctors completely. NP and PA market is saturated in the metro cities

 

[deleted562805]

I think this is why most physician specialists at any given hospital are contractors rather than full-time, salaried employees. If anything, most of the time the salaried employees are the primary care docs (IM, peds etc.) because they are much cheaper to pay full benefits to than surgeons, anesthesiologists, radiologists etc.

And Infectious Disease doctors are full time salaried employees too at least where I am from.

 

[wreagle96]

I'm a PIC at CVS and I find it incomprehensible that people are still going into Pharmacy schools. Do they not work in pharmacies? Do they not talk to people that do? I try to help whoever I can by advising them to choose a different profession. Don't make my mistake.

 

[PharmtoCS]

I'm a PIC at CVS and I find it incomprehensible that people are still going into Pharmacy schools. Do they not work in pharmacies? Do they not talk to people that do? I try to help whoever I can by advising them to choose a different profession. Don't make my mistake.

They're in the denial stage. They'll either deny that the saturation is as bad as it really is, or more commonly deny that they themselves will not be affected by saturation because of their work ethic, intelligence, chrisma, connections, etc.

Or they're in the anger stage and will lash out at you if you tell them the truth about saturation on this forum as we have all seen.

These will only be eventually followed by bargaining, depression, and acceptance.

 

[DagS132]

Or they're in the anger stage and will lash out at you if you tell them the truth about saturation on this forum as we have all seen.

To be fair, people going around giving advice when not even being asked is quite annoying. Its the same thing in the gym, don't go around giving form advice to try to save someone's life.

 

[LivingMyBestLife]

Just curious- did you even mention having 2 college degrees when you applied to Walmart? I would think they'd be too scared you'd leave if something in your field came up to hire you. I could see myself doing something like that just for the benefits when I retire......

I had to leave off all my degrees. They are a liability when working for those type of jobs because they will think

1. you will leave if you get a better job
2. you are damaged goods and there is something wrong with you
3. you will think you are better than ur coworkers.


Now of course I would never lie on my resume. When I applied to Walmart I simply left my degrees off my resume. The asked if I attended college and i said "some college" hehe

 

[PharmtoCS]

With the COVID-19 outbreak there is likely going to be even more push for automation, medication vending machines, technician verification, etc. COVID-19 doesn't affect machines.