Is Pre-Med Harder in Top Schools?

[xcrunner18]

Sorry to budge into this discussion, but in everyone's opinion. Is it smarter on my part to attend Dartmouth or USC? At Dartmouth I would be a bio major, and at USC I would be a biochem major with guaranteed acceptance to Keck School of Medicine with the option apply out without loosing the guarantee.

From what I read here, Top Schools are regarded highly, but good GPA's and MCAT's from any school will get you far. So, would similar MCAT's but higher GPA at USC get me to a better med school than Dartmouth. (Assuming i had similar EC's at either school)

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[pride4jc727]

I don't know, but I go to Fairfield University in Connecticut. Our program is difficult here. It would be interesting to know what Ivy League students think.

 

[premedrod]

sorry guys but we all know private schools (ivies) suck donkey balls compared to my school. UC DAVIS all the way!!!!!!


jk


so this is a dumb thread bc it all depends. cuz going into chem vs bio is hugely different at my school. like chem is super hard bc we have some pretentious professors that like to give out hard tests after not teaching just so that they can make themselves feel better about "knowing" more than students....

I HATE THIS THREAD CUZ ITS ONLY SERVING TO BUILD PPLS EGOS ABOUT GOING TO IVIES AND NOT DOING AS WELL AS A 4.0er AT A STATE SCHOOL.

 

[Pantelich]

I would say there is certainly a difference, but not much. Don't get me wrong, you just can't compare an education attained at an Ivy compared to a 1000 SAT and 3.0 GPA college. However, when you're talking about comparing Ivy schools to big state schools (Ohio State, Florida, Penn State, etc.), I don't think there is much of a difference.

I agree with you on the difficulty level of huge state universities being comparable to the most selective universities. About U of Florida, just about everyone has their tuition covered by the state. So, that is pretty good incentive for many students (that could have attended the more selective universities) to stay in-state at UF. Compared to other FL state universities (i.e. FSU), the classes at UF are harder.

Between a large, flagship state university and an Ivy/Ivy-ish university, the quality of education and the intensity/difficulty of the classes should be quite similar.

 

[scarletgirl777]

I transferred from an "upper tier" competitive school to an IVY....Ivy was infinitely harder. I also agree with the same test-different curve comment somewhere above. I took physics at my Ivy undergrad only to drop after the first midterm because I got a 74% and the class mean (about 60 students) was 82% which was set as the B-/C+ cut-off. Ironically, I picked up the same class that summer at my old "upper tier" school WITH THE SAME PROFESSOR (he was teaching part time during the summer at the other school)....first test was IDENTICAL. Mean for summer test 1 was 63% vs. 82% at the Ivy. All of a sudden a 74% was a B+/A- instead of a C or below....interesting i thought. I also think this helps explain the "grade inflation" myth....more kids at the IVY were simply doing better so more high grades were earned.

I feel that :/ These kind of rules also apply to summer/extension school programs at top schools too, and for that reason these programs can seem "easier" for people who have also gone to that school during the year.

 

[SirGecko]

I HATE THIS THREAD CUZ ITS ONLY SERVING TO BUILD PPLS EGOS ABOUT GOING TO IVIES AND NOT DOING AS WELL AS A 4.0er AT A STATE SCHOOL.

Woh, relax dude. I don't think anyone is trying to belittle the accomplishments of those that went to state schools.

 

[herbb]

yes, it is easier. everything adds up. even if the premed classes aren't significantly harder (which they most likely are, given the quality of your competition), all of your other classes are harder too (unless you actually went out of your way to challenge yourself at said state school - if so props to you for doing that). as you get to graduate level classes, the difficulty level generally decreases, so there is probably less difference there b/ ivies and state schools than intro science/premed classes which are graded on a strict curve.

 

[mdgator]

I agree with you on the difficulty level of huge state universities being comparable to the most selective universities. About U of Florida, just about everyone has their tuition covered by the state. So, that is pretty good incentive for many students (that could have attended the more selective universities) to stay in-state at UF. Compared to other FL state universities (i.e. FSU), the classes at UF are harder.

Between a large, flagship state university and an Ivy/Ivy-ish university, the quality of education and the intensity/difficulty of the classes should be quite similar.

Went to UF. Couldn't agree more, although I can't say for certain as I've never attended an Ivy. UF has very high standards compared to most state schools that I'm somewhat familiar with, but I think there is a lot of competition in the pre-med realm in particular at UF. Someone in another thread said that, on average, about 180 UF pre-meds matriculate to medical school each year. To me, this seems like a huge number.

 

[RapplixGmed]

Went to UF. Couldn't agree more, although I can't say for certain as I've never attended an Ivy. UF has very high standards compared to most state schools that I'm somewhat familiar with, but I think there is a lot of competition in the pre-med realm in particular at UF. Someone in another thread said that, on average, about 180 UF pre-meds matriculate to medical school each year. To me, this seems like a huge number.

180 matriculats 😱??? thats incredible! My school only has about 10,000 fewer undergrads but our number of APPLICANTS is half your number of MATRICULANTS wow. I don't know how many matriculate because our premed office doesn't do a good job of releasing stats.

 

[riceman04]

That's the critical difference. You learn the same material and may even do the same problems at different schools. However, the quality of the student body can vary a lot and in classes where the grades are curved (ie science courses), that can have a huge effect on your GPA.

The other day a friend from UC Davis showed me one of their orgo midterms. It looked similar in difficulty to the midterms I took at Cornell. The difference was that the class mean on the test was a 39 at UC Davis while the means on orgo exams were usually around 60-65 at Cornell. That's why it always brings a smile to my face when people talk about the means being a 25% on a test or having 50% of the class fail. That kind of stuff just doesn't happen at top schools because no matter how hard you make the tests, the students are always smart enough to adapt to at least make the means reasonable.

haha...next time take Orgo at Rice...the means were still lower than 65%...but I am quite sure the students are pretty smart

but I do understand what you are trying to convey

 

[riceman04]

sorry guys but we all know private schools (ivies) suck donkey balls compared to my school. UC DAVIS all the way!!!!!!


jk


so this is a dumb thread bc it all depends. cuz going into chem vs bio is hugely different at my school. like chem is super hard bc we have some pretentious professors that like to give out hard tests after not teaching just so that they can make themselves feel better about "knowing" more than students....

I HATE THIS THREAD CUZ ITS ONLY SERVING TO BUILD PPLS EGOS ABOUT GOING TO IVIES AND NOT DOING AS WELL AS A 4.0er AT A STATE SCHOOL.

don't worry about it...just do you and everything will be fine

 

[fuzzywuz]

Sorry to budge into this discussion, but in everyone's opinion. Is it smarter on my part to attend Dartmouth or USC? At Dartmouth I would be a bio major, and at USC I would be a biochem major with guaranteed acceptance to Keck School of Medicine with the option apply out without loosing the guarantee.

From what I read here, Top Schools are regarded highly, but good GPA's and MCAT's from any school will get you far. So, would similar MCAT's but higher GPA at USC get me to a better med school than Dartmouth. (Assuming i had similar EC's at either school)

Dude, I'd take that guaranteed admissions and run.

The fact that they let you apply without losing you spot is an added bonus. Why do you need to think about it?

 

[mTOR]

I agree with you on the difficulty level of huge state universities being comparable to the most selective universities. About U of Florida, just about everyone has their tuition covered by the state. So, that is pretty good incentive for many students (that could have attended the more selective universities) to stay in-state at UF. Compared to other FL state universities (i.e. FSU), the classes at UF are harder.

Between a large, flagship state university and an Ivy/Ivy-ish university, the quality of education and the intensity/difficulty of the classes should be quite similar.

Eh.. I think classes are "harder" at large institutions like UF only by virtue of the competition at such universities being more cut throat. That is, the classes aren't harder, just grading is less forgiving since professor's don't have to worry about curving down to the bell curve of an uncompetitive class of slackers .

Having taken science/math classes @ several institutions in Fl, including CCs (as a transient student), I haven't found any real difference in the difficulty of a given course -- just in the motivation of the students.

On the whole ivy league discussion, I'd expect the competitiveness at those schools to be just as cut throat as what you'd find at a large state institution... (Haha would this balance out the alleged ivy leage grade inflation you hear about so often in the media? is it actually easier to get an A at an ivy than a CC?). On a related note, the pre-med competition @ Brand Name med schools like Hopkins from all accounts is disgusting.

 

[BrainBuff]

Sorry to budge into this discussion, but in everyone's opinion. Is it smarter on my part to attend Dartmouth or USC? At Dartmouth I would be a bio major, and at USC I would be a biochem major with guaranteed acceptance to Keck School of Medicine with the option apply out without loosing the guarantee.

From what I read here, Top Schools are regarded highly, but good GPA's and MCAT's from any school will get you far. So, would similar MCAT's but higher GPA at USC get me to a better med school than Dartmouth. (Assuming i had similar EC's at either school)

Dartmouth is an awesome school and one of the best undergrads experiences in the country..Their alumni network is unbelievable and if you graduate from there, you will belong to a special club. Your performance MCAT and GPA wise is not guaranteed at any school, so I would not even think about it that much.. Go to to the best school that you can that is a fit for you, and try your best!!

 

[BrainBuff]

Went to UF. Couldn't agree more, although I can't say for certain as I've never attended an Ivy. UF has very high standards compared to most state schools that I'm somewhat familiar with, but I think there is a lot of competition in the pre-med realm in particular at UF. Someone in another thread said that, on average, about 180 UF pre-meds matriculate to medical school each year. To me, this seems like a huge number.

Two things:

First- UF is not one of the top schools in the country that places premeds into med school. The top 5 are Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Brown, Stanford and Dartmouth and they do not place that many. Your number is wrong.

Second-UF standards do not seem to be that high. All you need is for some politician to make a couple of phone calls and you can get in and apparently without MCAT.

 

[BrainBuff]

On a related note, the pre-med competition @ Brand Name med schools like Hopkins from all accounts is disgusting.

What do u mean by that? You find disgusting that some premeds work hard to try to get into one of the best med schools in the country? What do you propose? Let's just aim for mediocrity?

I bet then, that caribbean med students find "disgusting" the competition to get into ANY US med schools from all accounts..

 

[paranoid_eyes]

eh, it's not that hard if you study. im sure this is the case at any and all schools. most people doing bad aren't studying hard enough. This is DEFINITELY the case at my school (UCLA). I think some of the Ivy's are inflated, but it's difficult to tell. You can make some judgments about the UC's vs the Calstates or the community colleges, but once you get into the field of top schools it's difficult to really tell.

on a side note, i have heard of LAC schools who fail (as in F) half the class. Just one of the many reasons I'm happy that I chose a UCLA over Swarthmore.

 

[mTOR]

What do u mean by that? You find disgusting that some premeds work hard to try to get into one of the best med schools in the country? What do you propose? Let's just aim for mediocrity?

Whoops! Forgot to add "in contrast to the competitiveness of their med students" -- the whole reason why it's noteworthy.

 

[WildlifeSaver]

I agree with you on the difficulty level of huge state universities being comparable to the most selective universities. About U of Florida, just about everyone has their tuition covered by the state. So, that is pretty good incentive for many students (that could have attended the more selective universities) to stay in-state at UF. Compared to other FL state universities (i.e. FSU), the classes at UF are harder.

Between a large, flagship state university and an Ivy/Ivy-ish university, the quality of education and the intensity/difficulty of the classes should be quite similar.

Whats a flagship state university? Rutgers vs University of Penn (flagship)? Temple, Drexel or University of the sciences in Philadelphia (ivy-ish) vs. University of Penn? Just curious because if I don't get accepted to med school I want to to a masters at an Ivy (Penn or Cornell) if my grades are well enough to get into one with a good app(which I assume would if I think I have a real chance at getting into med school).

 

[redlight]

Whats a flagship state university? Rutgers vs University of Penn (flagship)? Temple, Drexel or University of the sciences in Philadelphia (ivy-ish) vs. University of Penn? Just curious because if I don't get accepted to med school I want to to a masters at an Ivy (Penn or Cornell) if my grades are well enough to get into one with a good app(which I assume would if I think I have a real chance at getting into med school).

i believe "flagship campus" of a state university refers to the first/bigger/better/more rigorous campus site of a university. For example, rutgers has a campus in camden, newark and new brunswick/piscataway but the NB/P site is the flagship (first one, most rigorous, harder of the 3 to get into, etc.). i think another example would be the university of michigan system which has a few campuses but the biggest, baddest, and most reputable one is located at ann arbor.

 

[redlight]

Eh.. I think classes are "harder" at large institutions like UF only by virtue of the competition at such universities being more cut throat. That is, the classes aren't harder, just grading is less forgiving since professor's don't have to worry about curving down to the bell curve of an uncompetitive class of slackers .

Having taken science/math classes @ several institutions in Fl, including CCs (as a transient student), I haven't found any real difference in the difficulty of a given course -- just in the motivation of the students.

On the whole ivy league discussion, I'd expect the competitiveness at those schools to be just as cut throat as what you'd find at a large state institution... (Haha would this balance out the alleged ivy leage grade inflation you hear about so often in the media? is it actually easier to get an A at an ivy than a CC?). On a related note, the pre-med competition @ Brand Name med schools like Hopkins from all accounts is disgusting.

is pre-med competition at hopkins (in terms of people being vicious) different from any top school? nope.
i hear rumors from non-hopkins people.
i get on campus and hear that these rumors are b.s.

 

[SketchLazy]

i believe "flagship campus" of a state university refers to the first/bigger/better/more rigorous campus site of a university. For example, rutgers has a campus in camden, newark and new brunswick/piscataway but the NB/P site is the flagship (first one, most rigorous, harder of the 3 to get into, etc.). i think another example would be the university of michigan system which has a few campuses but the biggest, baddest, and most reputable one is located at ann arbor.

Flagship campus is also used to describe the most research intensive, competitive, prestigious school of a state university system. For example, as much as I don't like to admit it, in the University of California system, UC Berkeley was originally chartered as a flagship campus with other UCs like UCLA supporting its endeavors. Even though the other UCs have made huge names for themselves since then, people still see Cal as the flagship university.

 

[redlight]

Two things:

First- UF is not one of the top schools in the country that places premeds into med school. The top 5 are Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Brown, Stanford and Dartmouth and they do not place that many. Your number is wrong.

Second-UF standards do not seem to be that high. All you need is for some politician to make a couple of phone calls and you can get in and apparently without MCAT.

highly doubt this. do you have data to back this up?
according to the aamc, 780 students from ucla applied to med school in 07.. only 225 applied from yale. if all bulldogs got into med school and only half of all bruins got in that year, ucla stil pwns yale by 165 accepted students.

 

[Arc]

To answer the question, No.

 

[Arc]

That and the classes at Cal are hella competitive.

Truth.

 

[ODorDO]

i guess it matters somewhat... but in the end the MCAT score explains it right?

 

[bananabrowning]

I would say that since most science courses are graded on a curve, in whatever schools you are in, your performance in a class is measured against the other students in the class. Also, since the school you attend is usually where you will find more students like yourself (a 1400+ will compete against 1400+ and 1000+ against 1000+), you will likely find that your grade will still reflect how you go up against people more around your same abilities. The MCAT, however, since more standardized, is going to measure how well you put up with fellow pre-medical students, and so that is probably the better equalizer.

 

[154465]

I do agree that the curve mkes a huge difference. I go to a state school and our exams are just as difficult as anywhere else. In the first couple intro classes there were descent curves, but past freshman year the classes are curved by the second highest score in the class... and that second highest score was a 99% every time. That's why I guess I wouldn't see a huge difference between our school and anywhere else.

 

[james1988]

interesting.

 

[dc5484]

Sorry to budge into this discussion, but in everyone's opinion. Is it smarter on my part to attend Dartmouth or USC? At Dartmouth I would be a bio major, and at USC I would be a biochem major with guaranteed acceptance to Keck School of Medicine with the option apply out without loosing the guarantee.

From what I read here, Top Schools are regarded highly, but good GPA's and MCAT's from any school will get you far. So, would similar MCAT's but higher GPA at USC get me to a better med school than Dartmouth. (Assuming i had similar EC's at either school)

USC for the win. Fun school, good education, LA, guaranteed spot at a good med school if nothing else works out. Dartmouth = good school but middle of nowhere. Some people complain about LA, but thats completely subjective. And I'd argue that even if LA isnt the *greatest* place, its better than the sticks.

 

[ButImLETired]

I'm sticking my neck out for this because I've actually been thinking about this a lot.

I went to an almost-Ivy as an undergrad, and I picked it because it's "known to be" (by those in the know, I guess) a great pre-med school. As you can judge from my science gpa, though, the fact that it's a great pre-med school essentially meant that it was HARD. I mean, REALLY hard. Some professors curved, some didn't (which, yes, meant that a lot of people did in fact fail gen chem) but as a rule, my fellow students had also picked our school based on its premed reputation and were there to get stuff DONE. It also depended on the class itself: most premeds took bio first, so a lot of weeding out was done there, and by the time we got to chem people were more committed (orgo was even worse).

I took one semester of orgo at my undergrad and it KILLED me. I then took it (both first and second semester) at an Ivy- and it was far easier than my school's, although it was hardly easy (I didn't do that wonderfully anyways, but as a rule it was easier). I also had a friend who took bio at this Ivy- and honestly, it was a JOKE. I took one of their practice exams 4 years after I'd taken bio as an undergrad, and it was all multiple choice, they gave them 3 hours to complete it, and their textbook was the same one I'd used in high school; it took me 45 minutes and I got a 98. And I'm pretty clearly not a science genius. A friend of mine who just graduated from there told me he worked way harder in high school.

I've also had friends who have taken science classes at state schools on purpose to get A's, and they did, and they said it was far easier than our undergrad. But I'm sure it depends on the state school.

All in all, don't get thrown off by the Ivy kids- grade inflation is a VERY real problem there. It SERIOUSLY depends on the school. I feel like a lot of the semi-Ivy schools have some kind of inferiority complex so they make things harder than they need to be to have a great reputation for their premed program. I just hope it makes a difference for med schools.

 

[ronaldo23]

way way harder at a 'top' school. I go to a top 20 lac, and all science classes are curved to a B-/C+, except that everyone in the class is already smart and serious science students. In a class like orgo, where everyone is smart + working incredibly hard, 50% will get a C+ or below no matter how hard they work......this alone makes it infinitely harder for a pre-med student to get a high GPA. I have taken classes at my undergrad and a SUNY school over the summer. The main difference I found, besides easier curves at SUNY, was that the SUNY school tests were more straightforward, often multiple choice questions on tests that test how well you know the basic formulas and ideas learned in class. At my college, you are taught all similar information, but all the test questions are complicated word problems that apply these ideas to more complex situations that require critical thinking and true understanding.

 

[BrainBuff]

redlight, the five schools in question ( Harvard, Yale, Brown, Princeton, Dartmouth and Stanford ) have an acceptance rate of applicants into med school of over 92 %. This is based on relative numbers, which make it valid. ( Unlike the liberal arts college that has 1 premed that gets accepted and then screams that they have a 100% acceptance rate to med school ) The schools I mentioned are recognized as having the greater number of admits per capita.
You can also get that info from their specific websites and from their admissions department.

 

[SiR99]

redlight, the five schools in question ( Harvard, Yale, Brown, Princeton, Dartmouth and Stanford ) have an acceptance rate of applicants into med school of over 92 %. This is based on relative numbers, which make it valid. ( Unlike the liberal arts college that has 1 premed that gets accepted and then screams that they have a 100% acceptance rate to med school ) The schools I mentioned are recognized as having the greater number of admits per capita.
You can also get that info from their specific websites and from their admissions department.

Yes, Grade inflation + 225 applicants = high relative admission rate.

Now imagine 780 students with only 15-20% getting A's in their classes. On top of that medical schools dont want a bunch of students from the same school which makes it even harder. You cant expect 90% (over 700) students filling up medical school seats from the same school even if all of them are qualified.

 

[tncekm]

Top schools, in general, are harder in any major. You will be writing more, you'll have more essay than multiple choice exams, for example. You will feel you have to work very hard for your A. You can ask any Uchicago graduates, they'll probably say the same thing.
For this reason, your As and high GPA will be valued more than those from lower schools.

What's multiple choice? 😆 I go to a small state school, and although I may not be competing with as many bright people as I would be if I were at MIT, I do know I never get multiple choice exams 😛

To save money, I went to a state school for two years and then transferred to a better school. It was easier for me to get As in a state school.

If these were your fresh/soph years, that's not a fair comparison. UD classes are almost always more difficult that LD classes.

Anyway, I looked at the Ochem stuff from MIT's open course material site thingy, and their Ochem tests they had posted were probably less difficult than what I saw a lot of times in my class; however, I'm sure the competition is way more stiff there than my school! I did find my physics class to be pretty freaking easy though. And, I took g chem at a JC. I never paid attention a single day, didn't do the homework or anything, and got good grades. Fast forward to MCAT time and I had to relearn everything. 🙁

 

[tncekm]

...inflated....You can make some judgments about the UC's vs the Calstates or the community colleges, but once you get into the field of top schools it's difficult to really tell.

on a side note, i have heard of LAC schools who fail (as in F) half the class. Just one of the many reasons I'm happy that I chose a UCLA over Swarthmore.

Man, I've met some CSU professors who are so sore over the assertion that their classes see grade inflation that I think they take it out on us 😛 Ochem professor I had set his C level to 50%, but half of the students who sign up for the class drop, about 1/2 of those remaining get D/F. I think there are 1-2 A's in the class. I mentioned one time I felt bad for some of the people who were multiple retakers for the class, and he just looked at me and said "if a person can't pass this class on their second attempt then they should probably think about changing their major". 😕