Is SDN's opinion on LUCOM representative of the majority?

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serenade said:
BYU at least in Utah is a very respected school and has a good amount of research. LU is an online school.
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Mad Jack said:
I would be okay with a BYU medical school. It would have strong academics and research, and would likely be an excellent school overall. Unlike LUCOM, BYU teaches actual science (they tech evolution as a fact, while LUCOM advocates young earth creationism, for instance). Given their longstanding commitment to quality education over dogma, they, much like CUSOM, MUCOM, Loma Linda, etc, would likely be well received into the medical fold.
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Cool. I agree 100% (of course, being a Mormon I'm inclined to agree.)
I was curious how others would perceive it.

It seems to me that people's problem with LUCOM isn't that they have a problem with Christianity or even particularly conservative Christianity. I think it stems from the fact that Jerry Falwell was known for making inflammatory, over-the-top, and paranoid comments and the school is tightly associated with that brand of belief. It's not just the creationism, it's the in-your-face attitude about it.

Also, as Serenade has pointed out, Liberty is representative of DO schools' over expansion and emphasis on quantity of schools over quality.
 
Mad Jack said:
I would be okay with a BYU medical school. It would have strong academics and research, and would likely be an excellent school overall. Unlike LUCOM, BYU teaches actual science (they tech evolution as a fact, while LUCOM advocates young earth creationism, for instance). Given their longstanding commitment to quality education over dogma, they, much like CUSOM, MUCOM, Loma Linda, etc, would likely be well received into the medical fold.
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I don't see how any of their undergrad dogma relates to a medical education. I want to make sure that pre-meds are making informed decisions. Liberty as of this time has the lowest entrance requirements at this time...so it is a very attractive option for the many DO applicants on the fring of acceptance.

Yes, Liberty is a Baptist College which teaches the literal translation of their religious documents. They do teach creationism...but from what I understand they also teach evolution. I am sure that there is an associated bias.

But is any of that relevant to the topic at hand? We are talking about LUCOM and not Liberty. Does LUCOM provide a decent medical education? It is a DO program and therefore I would imagine that DOs coming from the program would be competitive for residency with competitive scores. I have heard enough things for me to have concern about picking LUCOM over more established DO programs...but I haven't heard anything that would take LUCOM off the board as an option. It's still a better option than the Caribbean, for instance.
 
j4pac said:
I don't see how any of their undergrad dogma relates to a medical education. I want to make sure that pre-meds are making informed decisions. Liberty as of this time has the lowest entrance requirements at this time...so it is a very attractive option for the many DO applicants on the fring of acceptance.

Yes, Liberty is a Baptist College which teaches the literal translation of their religious documents. They do teach creationism...but from what I understand they also teach evolution. I am sure that there is an associated bias.

But is any of that relevant to the topic at hand? We are talking about LUCOM and not Liberty. Does Liberty provide a decent medical education? It is a DO program and therefore I would imagine that DOs coming from the program would be competitive for residency with competitive scores. I have heard enough things for me to have concern about picking LUCOM over more established DO programs...but I haven't heard anything that would take LUCOM off the board as an option. It's still a better option than the Caribbean, for instance.
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Personally I'd rather have waited a year and reapplied than have that stain of a name on my diploma and CV forever.
 
Mad Jack said:
Personally I'd rather have waited a year and reapplied than have that stain of a name on my diploma and CV forever.
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Your medical school means very little after residency. I am not sure that principle would be enough reason for me to throw a medical education.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
I don't think you can just perform sleight of hand and dismiss the larger context of the university.
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So you are willing to recommend applicants to go to the Caribbean over LUCOM. I think that you are letting "principle" cloud your judgement.

Christopher Coulmbus was a racist dick...doesn't make me any less proud to be an American.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
When did I say that?
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Well...would you? Because that is the question that many applicants are asking themselves with acceptance letters to LUCOM. People who are considering LUCOM aren't also considering Harvard. Is LUCOM a viable option?
 
It never ceases to amaze me how million of Christians are willing to go to agnostic based colleges...and take it. Meanwhile, when the tables are turned...principle is just too much to overcome.

Make good informed decisions based on logic, kiddos. Not religion.
 
j4pac said:
It never ceases to amaze me how million of Christians are willing to go to agnostic based colleges...and take it. Meanwhile, when the tables are turned...principle is just too much to overcome.

Make good informed decisions based on logic, kiddos. Not religion.
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You realize not everyone you're blanket labelling is agnostic/atheist, right?
 
j4pac said:
It never ceases to amaze me how million of Christians are willing to go to agnostic based colleges...and take it. Meanwhile, when the tables are turned...principle is just too much to overcome.

Make good informed decisions based on logic, kiddos. Not religion.
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Do you **** straw everyday or just do it on the weekends and make men the other days?

There's a difference between going to a Jesuit university with a few nuns on campus and LUCOM which is an online school with a degenerate quality campus with Old Testament conduct requirements.

Your attempt to veil yourself from the validity of the issue through a clause of reverse discrimination is flimsy and poor. It does not hold up against scrutiny.
 
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Would people have a problem taking a LUCOM student into their residency (or hiring) if they had good/average board scores? I've been told the most important part about being a doctor is residency, NOT the actual schooling. What the heck does the school matter if the student produces hard results? It is my impression that some of you feel like if you attend LUCOM you're gonna be brainwashed and indoctrinated by them (lol) or that one's beliefs are in-line with institution and that's why you decided to attend that school.

it also sounds like LUCOM is very different from its parent uni and j.falwell anyways. if 100 years went by, would people still hate LUCOM because of its association with mr falwell?

Instead of all the knee jerk reactions, I think people should be calm, sit by and observe before rushing to make judgements.
 
asdf123g said:
Would people have a problem taking a LUCOM student into their residency (or hiring) if they had good/average board scores? I've been told the most important part about being a doctor is residency, NOT the actual schooling. What the heck does the school matter if the student produces hard results? It is my impression that some of you feel like if you attend LUCOM you're gonna be brainwashed and indoctrinated by them (lol) or that one's beliefs are in-line with institution and that's why you decided to attend that school.

it also sounds like LUCOM is very different from its parent uni and j.falwell anyways. if 100 years went by, would people still hate LUCOM because of its association with mr falwell?

Instead of all the knee jerk reactions, I think people should be calm, sit by and observe before rushing to make judgements.
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Starts out like asking a genuine question...now advocating for the school. Shocking.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
Starts out like asking a genuine question...now advocating for the school. Shocking.
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i am playing the devils advocate. Since I don't really have a strong opinion on the school, i dare say its easier for me to 'see the other side.'

Shocking...you offered no rebuttal.

@allantois : <--offers no rebuttal to my response after suggesting a new profile was suspicious because they had positive things to say about LUCOM. "Very interesting to see new users with only a few messages come in and defend LUCOM." Take your tinfoil hat off, just because there are people who support the school or are indifferent, doens't mean they work for the school, are some religious nut, etc
 
asdf123g said:
i am playing the devils advocate. Since I don't really have a strong opinion on the school, i dare say its easier for me to 'see the other side.'

Shocking...you offered no rebuttal.

@allantois : <--offers no rebuttal to my response after suggesting a new profile was suspicious because they had positive things to say about LUCOM. "Very interesting to see new users with only a few messages come in and defend LUCOM."
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You're asking for us to spell out the obvious for you now?

Ok. It's suspicious when brand new posters come onto a very specific subforum with strong one-sided opinions. Likely causes for this include: (a) alt handles of existing posters, (b) trolls, (c) representatives or students of the vested party. This happens all the time with specific schools, specific residencies, etc. It may simply be a legitimate new poster, but the differential diagnosis is suspicious and their posts should be taken with a heavy grain of salt.
 
asdf123g said:
Would people have a problem taking a LUCOM student into their residency (or hiring) if they had good/average board scores? I've been told the most important part about being a doctor is residency, NOT the actual schooling. What the heck does the school matter if the student produces hard results? It is my impression that some of you feel like if you attend LUCOM you're gonna be brainwashed and indoctrinated by them (lol) or that one's beliefs are in-line with institution and that's why you decided to attend that school.

it also sounds like LUCOM is very different from its parent uni and j.falwell anyways. if 100 years went by, would people still hate LUCOM because of its association with mr falwell?

Instead of all the knee jerk reactions, I think people should be calm, sit by and observe before rushing to make judgements.
Click to expand...
If I'm ever a PD, LUCOM apps will go straight into the trash. Limiting the success of the school's graduates would hopefully eventually lead to LUCOM's closure, as COCA requires 98% of graduates to obtain training positions.

And before anyone asks, yes, I feel strongly enough about the issue to limit the opportunities of those who have funded the abomination that is Liberty. People are free to attend a school that stands as a fortress of ignorance, just as I am free to not associate with them professionally.
 
Mad Jack said:
If I'm ever a PD, LUCOM apps will go straight into the trash. Limiting the success of the school's graduates would hopefully eventually lead to LUCOM's closure, as COCA requires 98% of graduates to obtain training positions.

And before anyone asks, yes, I feel strongly enough about the issue to limit the opportunities of those who have funded the abomination that is Liberty. People are free to attend a school that stands as a fortress of ignorance, just as I am free to not associate with them professionally.
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As cruel as it is to the students. I'm willing admit that for the sustaining and health of the osteopathic field cutting off a finger is valid and rational.
 
Mad Jack said:
If I'm ever a PD, LUCOM apps will go straight into the trash. Limiting the success of the school's graduates would hopefully eventually lead to LUCOM's closure, as COCA requires 98% of graduates to obtain training positions.

And before anyone asks, yes, I feel strongly enough about the issue to limit the opportunities of those who have funded the abomination that is Liberty. People are free to attend a school that stands as a fortress of ignorance, just as I am free to not associate with them professionally.
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The same goes for RVU and any other for-profit institution that gives osteopathic medicine and medicine in general a black eye.
 
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ERK123 said:
The same goes for RVU and any other for-profit institution that gives osteopathic medicine and medicine in general a black eye.
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As much as I don't like it. The LCME has pushed off from it's 4 profit clause and now allows it.

So that's life.

But it does need to stop before osteopathic medicine becomes a true Psy.D route.
 
The true majority opinion of LUCOM in medicine is nothing. Most people probably don't know that it exists. Maybe they do in Lynchburg, but not in many other places. Even in the DO world people don't really know about it. It's brand new. Wait 5-10 years and you'll get your answer.
 
hallowmann said:
The true majority opinion of LUCOM in medicine is nothing. Most people probably don't know that it exists. Maybe they do in Lynchburg, but not in many other places. Even in the DO world people don't really know about it. It's brand new. Wait 5-10 years and you'll get your answer.
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it does appear that the same 5-6 faces continually bash LUCOM...almost in an unhealthy obsessive paranoid way which kind of distorted my reality into thinking this was common. Thank you for an actual level headed response AND actually answering the question at hand with your opinion.
 
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asdf123g said:
it does appear that the same 5-6 faces continually bash LUCOM...almost in an unhealthy obsessive paranoid way which kind of distorted by reality into thinking this was common. Thank you for an actual level headed response AND actually answering the question at hand with your opinion.
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To be fair, its the same handful of people talking it up too. Bottomline is that its too early to tell.
 
hallowmann said:
To be fair, its the same handful of people talking it up too. Bottomline is that its too early to tell.
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true. I feel LUCOM's opposition has a much louder voice however for whatever reason.
 
asdf123g said:
true. I feel LUCOM's opposition has a much louder voice however for whatever reason.
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Why don't we just go ahead and allow Nursing Center College in Florida to get the green light and build their DO school too now if we're lowering the bar.
 
asdf123g said:
true. I feel LUCOM's opposition has a much louder voice however for whatever reason.
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The simple fact is, their stats are poor, so they must be driving good applicants away. Touro-NY had an incoming MCAT of 28 and a GPA of 3.6 on year one. Marion had an average of 27 and a GPA of 3.62 in their first year. Enough people must turned off by LUCOM to hurt their matriculant stats, and enough people read SDN to know that it's probably not the best place to attend. I guess my point is, there's got to be a good number of people with negative attitudes toward LUCOM in general.
 
serenade said:
Why don't we just go ahead and allow Nursing Center College in Florida to get the green light and build their DO school too now if we're lowering the bar.
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At least they're not teaching young earth creationism at the same school and allow you to do whatever you want in your personal life...
 
asdf123g said:
it does appear that the same 5-6 faces continually bash LUCOM...almost in an unhealthy obsessive paranoid way which kind of distorted my reality into thinking this was common. Thank you for an actual level headed response AND actually answering the question at hand with your opinion.
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You must be insane if you think that any one person on SDN is giving you more than their personal opinion. The truth of the matter is that a school like LUCOM would have never been allowed if it was up to LCME. And I'm sure residency directors will see LUCOM for what it is; and I would be especially worried as a LUCOM student or anyone looking to attend there given that there will be more ACGME involvement with residency programs in the future.
 
allantois said:
You must be insane if you think that any one person on SDN is giving you more than their personal opinion. The truth of the matter is that a school like LUCOM would have never been allowed if it was up to LCME. And I'm sure residency directors will see LUCOM for what it is; and I would be especially worried as a LUCOM student or anyone looking to attend there given that there will be more ACGME involvement with residency programs in the future.
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Wow.
 
To be fair, go look up the Oral Roberts University School of Medicine. LCME is not above reproach.

allantois said:
You must be insane if you think that any one person on SDN is giving you more than their personal opinion. The truth of the matter is that a school like LUCOM would have never been allowed if it was up to LCME. And I'm sure residency directors will see LUCOM for what it is; and I would be especially worried as a LUCOM student or anyone looking to attend there given that there will be more ACGME involvement with residency programs in the future.
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Mad Jack said:
The simple fact is, their stats are poor, so they must be driving good applicants away. Touro-NY had an incoming MCAT of 28 and a GPA of 3.6 on year one. Marion had an average of 27 and a GPA of 3.62 in their first year. Enough people must turned off by LUCOM to hurt their matriculant stats, and enough people read SDN to know that it's probably not the best place to attend. I guess my point is, there's got to be a good number of people with negative attitudes toward LUCOM in general.
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When it comes down to it, their average student has an Mcat below a 24, and a weak gpa. There will be massive amounts of drop outs and complications with boards. We can only pray that LUCOM will try to salvage these students and push them into applying for residency and have their 98% not met.

That would be the ideal turn of events.
 
allantois said:
You must be insane if you think that any one person on SDN is giving you more than their personal opinion.
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This I agree with, but LUCOM is really in a class of its own. It's not a leap to say that a school that strictly observes a religion that is incompatible with science is going to face ridicule. Richard Dawkins (Oxford prof) told a student to "go to a real university" when someone from Liberty asked him a stupid question.

Now, presuming that I get accepted, if I meet a colleague from LUCOM down the road I will not look down on them. Individuals from there may have only had one shot to go to medical school and they seized it. Or they are really, really religious. Before anyone enumerates other reasons someone might go there, I already know that nobody is going there in the year 2015 for the amazing research, teaching or clinical opportunities. That's fine if it doesn't hurt patients or make them a pain to work with. Who am I to judge? But I wouldn't pay for my children to attend that school. Medicine is tough enough without introducing things that can bias future employers.

But to the OP, the fact is most people here are just giving their personal opinion. In aggregate, these opinions would worry me. I don't see people who aren't going to LUCOM and aren't intending to apply rushing to defend it.
 
petyr_baelish said:
This I agree with, but LUCOM is really in a class of its own. It's not a leap to say that a school that strictly observes a religion that is incompatible with science is going to face ridicule. Richard Dawkins (Oxford prof) told a student to "go to a real university" when someone from Liberty asked him a stupid question.

Now, presuming that I get accepted, if I meet a colleague from LUCOM down the road I will not look down on them. Individuals from there may have only had one shot to go to medical school and they seized it. Or they are really, really religious. Before anyone enumerates other reasons someone might go there, I already know that nobody is going there in the year 2015 for the amazing research, teaching or clinical opportunities. That's fine if it doesn't hurt patients or make them a pain to work with. Who am I to judge? But I wouldn't pay for my children to attend that school. Medicine is tough enough without introducing things that can bias future employers.

But to the OP, the fact is most people here are just giving their personal opinion. In aggregate, these opinions would worry me. I don't see people who aren't going to LUCOM and aren't intending to apply rushing to defend it.
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Aye, harboring a prejudice is super counterproductive and a bit ironic coming from people applying to DO schools...We should judge people based upon how they present themselves, what they do, how they think and the quality of their performance.
 
J Senpai said:
Aye, harboring a prejudice is super counterproductive and a bit ironic coming from people applying to DO schools...We should judge people based upon how they present themselves, what they do, how they think and the quality of their performance.
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Yes, that's what I mean. It has been said that like any new school, it will take time for LUCOM to gain respect. They have a steeper uphill battle than most new schools, in my view. I hope that individual students will be able to distinguish themselves. It would suck to be the one or two students who attended LUCOM because they are from the area and wanted to stay close to family, or because no other medical school would accept them in the year that they chose to apply. Singling LUCOM out isn't prejudiced until they prove themselves to be distinct from their founding mission, the occasional crazy faculty member and their affiliated undergrad. They aren't eager to do so, they know what they are doing. They have actively recruited Creationists and seek to build a Creationist community. That's great if you want to stay in that network, but the residency programs being what they are, you sometimes can't just stay put. I wouldn't want to bet on PDs being less prejudiced for many years.
 
That's not to suggest I'm in favor of the school. In fact, the opposite is true and I've made that clear in other threads for the same reasons mentioned by others in this one.
 
J Senpai said:
Aye, harboring a prejudice is super counterproductive and a bit ironic coming from people applying to DO schools...We should judge people based upon how they present themselves, what they do, how they think and the quality of their performance.
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I'm of the opinion that LUCOM should be shut down by any means necessary to protect the reputation of the osteopathic profession. This is about the greater good.
 
serenade said:
I.e if you're a 4th year student and your school suddenly finds itself in deep violation of COCA that it shuts down you will not be able to apply to residencies.
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I think WCUCOM's issue-less accreditation from COCA should allay fears of this. For one, their first two classes had around 73% and 76% pass rates on the COMLEX.
 
Goro said:
The first couple of years for new schools are rocky.
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True, but there's no denying that their internal policies combined with low entrance stats contributed highly to that number.

This not even beginning to probe the enormous complains of rotation site physicians regarding their preparedness for practice.
 
user3 said:
I think WCUCOM's issue-less accreditation from COCA should allay fears of this. For one, their first two classes had around 73% and 76% pass rates on the COMLEX.
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I think wcu com may be losing it's status as the worst DO school in the country next year.
 
lol please. people cried that the sky was falling when RVU opened up and look at how they're doing. Same will happen with LUCOM. Haters gonna hate.
 
Jwalker said:
lol please. people cried that the sky was falling when RVU opened up and look at how they're doing. Same will happen with LUCOM. Haters gonna hate.
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RVU still continues to have subpar match lists. But honestly, they did everything they could make to make the school and it's students succeed.

LUCOM isn't going to be similar to RVU. It'll be a WCU.
 
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