Is SDN's opinion on LUCOM representative of the majority?

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touchpause13 said:
Well y'all pretty much know what I think by now but whatever here we go
- I have a problem with Falwell. A big problem with that racist, homophobic dingus and I consider that a stench on the whole institution. And yes I know the founder of my school and yes I think founders are important.
- I have a problem with young earth creationism and I think that having a creationist museum on a medical school campus is a joke
- I have a problem with the anti gay things I've heard coming from professors and students and feel concerned about their ability to produce providers who will treat gay patients with respect and pay attention to their unique needs
- the stats are terrible, and I think that's a bad sign.
- the fact that their code of conduct seems to be kept under lock and key is despicable. I can have no problem finding the code of conduct for any other school but for this they are hiding it. I don't think it's write to not fully inform people what they are getting into and the rules I have been able to get a hold of are very strict. I don't have a problem with a private institution having strict rules, I have a problem with them not informing potential students up front
- I have no problem with other religious institutions and I think it would be wonderful if BYU opened a medical school and kind of surprised that they haven't by this point
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Ok I've seen a lot written on here about BYU being great but don't they have a lot of the same flaws as LUCOM. I hade lived within 5 miles of BYU for 14 years. The LDS church refused to give Black people the priesthood well after the civil rights era. I think they caved in around 1978-79. The LDS church set up shock therapy programs do they could shock the gay out of homosexuals. This act of shock therapy lasted into the 90's. In the 2000's the church lobbied and spent millions of dollars fighting against the rights of The LGBT community in California. Women were not allowed to pray in conference until last year. The state legislature of Utah recently passed an equality bill ensuring the LGBT community cannot be discriminated against in the workplace or in housing but they CAN be denied services by private businesses. Today on the comments section concerning the new bill multiple Mormon individuals publicly declared that homosexuality is equivalent to pedophilia. 75% of Mormons I know do not believe in evolution and think the earth is 6-10k years old. Many Mormons that I know do not believe in dinosaurs. My question is, how does any of this differ from what the founders of LUCOM advocate? It seems there might be a double standard, unless I'm missing something. Why praise BYU and say they should have a med school and then shun another religious school?
 
I'm not trying to start s fight with the above statement. I just feel like there is some erroneous thinking with BYU. I don't hate Mormons. Almost everyone I know is Mormon.
 
Higherprimate said:
Ok I've seen a lot written on here about BYU being great but don't they have a lot of the same flaws as LUCOM. I hade lived within 5 miles of BYU for 14 years. The LDS church refused to give Black people the priesthood well after the civil rights era. I think they caved in around 1978-79. The LDS church set up shock therapy programs do they could shock the gay out of homosexuals. This act of shock therapy lasted into the 90's. In the 2000's the church lobbied and spent millions of dollars fighting against the rights of The LGBT community in California. Women were not allowed to pray in conference until last year. The state legislature of Utah recently passed an equality bill ensuring the LGBT community cannot be discriminated against in the workplace or in housing but they CAN be denied services by private businesses. Today on the comments section concerning the new bill multiple Mormon individuals publicly declared that homosexuality is equivalent to pedophilia. 75% of Mormons I know do not believe in evolution and think the earth is 6-10k years old. Many Mormons that I know do not believe in dinosaurs. My question is, how does any of this differ from what the founders of LUCOM advocate? It seems there might be a double standard, unless I'm missing something. Why praise BYU and say they should have a med school and then shun another religious school?
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Because BYU is an established university. I'm willing to forget the entire Mormonism thing and all of its associated sins for the sake of establishing a medical school that will be good. Likewise, for what it is worth Mormonism has two things going for it. It's ability to quickly change when it decides that something is no longer politically favorable ( Just wait, Jesus will tell one of the living prophets that homosexuality is totally cool in like 5-10 years just like he told them 20 that black ppl are cool too). But essentially it also has the added benefit of the reality that save for Jews, Mormons are arguably the most educated religious group and tend to have progressive views on plenty of things statistically. Albeit again, the mormon part is just a minus in my book. I'm looking at whether a school that has real strength inside its walls can be born. Not LUCOM, that is held up by toothpicks.

If LUCOM was not an online school I might have truthfully ignored the religious aspects entirely and picked my battle elsewhere. But LUCOM fundamentally is just that. Liberty is an online school, a low tier and poorly regarded school. It's in my opinion less qualified to possess a DO school than some community colleges in the area.
 
serenade said:
Because BYU is an established university. I'm willing to forget the entire Mormonism thing and all of its associated sins for the sake of establishing a medical school that will be good. Likewise, for what it is worth Mormonism has two things going for it. It's ability to quickly change when it decides that something is no longer politically favorable ( Just wait, Jesus will tell one of the living prophets that homosexuality is totally cool in like 5-10 years just like he told them 20 that black ppl are cool too). But essentially it also has the added benefit of the reality that save for Jews, Mormons are arguably the most educated religious group and tend to have progressive views on plenty of things statistically. Albeit again, the mormon part is just a minus in my book. I'm looking at whether a school that has real strength inside its walls can be born. Not LUCOM, that is held up by toothpicks.
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I see where you are coming from and it makes sense. Religion aside, yes BYU is a great school but they do require prayer in every class and you are required to take religious classes. I wonder how that would be worked out if they one day got a medical school.
 
Higherprimate said:
Ok I've seen a lot written on here about BYU being great but don't they have a lot of the same flaws as LUCOM. I hade lived within 5 miles of BYU for 14 years. The LDS church refused to give Black people the priesthood well after the civil rights era. I think they caved in around 1978-79. The LDS church set up shock therapy programs do they could shock the gay out of homosexuals. This act of shock therapy lasted into the 90's. In the 2000's the church lobbied and spent millions of dollars fighting against the rights of The LGBT community in California. Women were not allowed to pray in conference until last year. The state legislature of Utah recently passed an equality bill ensuring the LGBT community cannot be discriminated against in the workplace or in housing but they CAN be denied services by private businesses. Today on the comments section concerning the new bill multiple Mormon individuals publicly declared that homosexuality is equivalent to pedophilia. 75% of Mormons I know do not believe in evolution and think the earth is 6-10k years old. Many Mormons that I know do not believe in dinosaurs. My question is, how does any of this differ from what the founders of LUCOM advocate? It seems there might be a double standard, unless I'm missing something. Why praise BYU and say they should have a med school and then shun another religious school?
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Yea I got no love for BYU. There are plenty of crazy people there. Its a respectable institution being the flagship for Mormons but it sure is crazy. I personally draw some major distinctions. So I have no problem with CUSOM, Marian, touros and many other religious schools. Schools with nebelous histories such as liberty and Brigham young I wouldn't be comfortable with (even with considering BYU being a decent school). I read the code of conduct there and I wouldn't reccomend a non LDS person to go there in that hypothetical medical school.
 
serenade said:
Liberty is an online school
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I've seen you say this a few times now but Liberty University is not an online school. But like many, many universities they do have an online/distance learning branch to the main campus university. To say that LU is an online school is a lie.
 
Anthonyweiner said:
I've seen you say this a few times now but Liberty University is not an online school. But like many, many universities they do have an online/distance learning branch to the main campus university. To say that LU is an online school is a lie.
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80% of their students are online. It's an online school.
 
Liberty isn't an online school though- it is well established within the Christian community and has been for years. The current president views LU as the BYU or Notre Dame of Christianity.
The majority of Liberty undergrads go there because they come from very conservative backgrounds and want the "big school" experience while still interacting with people who share their values. The rest are Pastor or Missionary kids who receive large scholarships because of their parents professions.

I'm not sure of the majority of people, but Liberty is highly regarded among (mostly older)conservative christians, especially homeschoolers. I went to a christian high school and we were all encouraged consider Liberty for college (which a large reason I didn't apply there). A good 50% of my school was absent for their preview day and most of my classmates were accepted there.

Anyway this has nothing to do with LUCOM, but I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions about Liberty I've been seeing in this thread. It's really not a bad school if you know what you're getting into, but you have to realize you're taking a big risk on your future job prospects.
 
Higherprimate said:
Ok I've seen a lot written on here about BYU being great but don't they have a lot of the same flaws as LUCOM. I hade lived within 5 miles of BYU for 14 years. The LDS church refused to give Black people the priesthood well after the civil rights era. I think they caved in around 1978-79. The LDS church set up shock therapy programs do they could shock the gay out of homosexuals. This act of shock therapy lasted into the 90's. In the 2000's the church lobbied and spent millions of dollars fighting against the rights of The LGBT community in California. Women were not allowed to pray in conference until last year. The state legislature of Utah recently passed an equality bill ensuring the LGBT community cannot be discriminated against in the workplace or in housing but they CAN be denied services by private businesses. Today on the comments section concerning the new bill multiple Mormon individuals publicly declared that homosexuality is equivalent to pedophilia. 75% of Mormons I know do not believe in evolution and think the earth is 6-10k years old. Many Mormons that I know do not believe in dinosaurs. My question is, how does any of this differ from what the founders of LUCOM advocate? It seems there might be a double standard, unless I'm missing something. Why praise BYU and say they should have a med school and then shun another religious school?
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lol if we're getting into a religious debate I think there's a time and a place (coming from a Mormon) - The LDS church has made statements about all the stuff you brought up which I'm sure you could easily find (I don't want to try and explain it all and have my words be used against me). One major problem with us "Mormons" is we all have similar backgrounds. Perfect Mormon family, straight A's, clean-cut, served a religious mission, extracurriculars. The hardest thing as a mormon would be how to stand out. The nursing program isn't even a good program at BYU and you have to have over a 3.9 to get in. Why? Because most mormons are perfectionists. If they opened a medical school it would be one of the hardest schools to get into because when I took ochem/gen chem 200~ students in each class were pre-med. I don't fit the standard mormon stereotype with my brother and dad being openly gay atheists that left the church and parents divorced blah blah but I still am a mormon- just clearing some air about what BYU is like for pre-med.
 
It's not established within any community. To even humor the notion that Notre Dame or any affiliated schools such as Gtown can be uttered in the same sentence as Liberty is an insult to them.

Those are schools of quality and value. Liberty is in many ways ranked lower within the state of VA than most of it's community colleges in both regard and outcomes.

So please don't pretend that this isn't a problem. Don't pretend that every clown school deserves a medical school.
 
I wasn't trying to start a debate, I'm really sorry if it came off if I was.

And I definitely wasn't comparing it to Notre Dame; it's no where near the caliber. No one else believes it other than Fallwel Jr.
Really, all I wanted was to clear up that it's not an online school, Christians seem to like it for whatever reason, and students go to that undergrad because their parents gave them no other choice. (Which really proves that it's not that great of a school).

I'll see myself out now before another debate starts...
 
moonwake said:
lol if we're getting into a religious debate I think there's a time and a place (coming from a Mormon) - The LDS church has made statements about all the stuff you brought up which I'm sure you could easily find (I don't want to try and explain it all and have my words be used against me). One major problem with us "Mormons" is we all have similar backgrounds. Perfect Mormon family, straight A's, clean-cut, served a religious mission, extracurriculars. The hardest thing as a mormon would be how to stand out. The nursing program isn't even a good program at BYU and you have to have over a 3.9 to get in. Why? Because most mormons are perfectionists. If they opened a medical school it would be one of the hardest schools to get into because when I took ochem/gen chem 200~ students in each class were pre-med. I don't fit the standard mormon stereotype with my brother and dad being openly gay atheists that left the church and parents divorced blah blah but I still am a mormon- just clearing some air about what BYU is like for pre-med.
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Yeah I have read them. I'm not trying to bash mormons. Like i said before almost everyone I know is Mormon and I really do love mormons and agree with quite a bit of what the church stands for. I grew up Mormon, my family and my wife are still LDS so I do not hold any animosity towards those that are part of the LDS church. I just saw a lot of posts attacking Liberty for their religious views but gave others a pass so I thought I'd comment but it seems the bigger issue is the online aspect of the school. I hope I did not offend.
 
Higherprimate said:
Yeah I have read them. I'm not trying to bash mormons. Like i said before almost everyone I know is Mormon and I really do love mormons and agree with quite a bit of what the church stands for. I grew up Mormon, my family and my wife are still LDS so I do not hold any animosity towards those that are part of the LDS church. I just saw a lot of posts attacking Liberty for their religious views but gave others a pass so I thought I'd comment but it seems the bigger issue is the online aspect of the school. I hope I did not offend.
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Its cool - regardless- I find it refreshing to live in places/go to schools where there is an even spread of backgrounds and beliefs. Interviewing at schools and meeting all the different applicants was awesome.
 
serenade said:
It's not established within any community. To even humor the notion that Notre Dame or any affiliated schools such as Gtown can be uttered in the same sentence as Liberty is an insult to them.

Those are schools of quality and value. Liberty is in many ways ranked lower within the state of VA than most of it's community colleges in both regard and outcomes.

So please don't pretend that this isn't a problem. Don't pretend that every clown school deserves a medical school.
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source? sounds like complete conjecture to me.
 
Higherprimate said:
Ok I've seen a lot written on here about BYU being great but don't they have a lot of the same flaws as LUCOM. I hade lived within 5 miles of BYU for 14 years. The LDS church refused to give Black people the priesthood well after the civil rights era. I think they caved in around 1978-79. The LDS church set up shock therapy programs do they could shock the gay out of homosexuals. This act of shock therapy lasted into the 90's. In the 2000's the church lobbied and spent millions of dollars fighting against the rights of The LGBT community in California. Women were not allowed to pray in conference until last year. The state legislature of Utah recently passed an equality bill ensuring the LGBT community cannot be discriminated against in the workplace or in housing but they CAN be denied services by private businesses. Today on the comments section concerning the new bill multiple Mormon individuals publicly declared that homosexuality is equivalent to pedophilia. 75% of Mormons I know do not believe in evolution and think the earth is 6-10k years old. Many Mormons that I know do not believe in dinosaurs. My question is, how does any of this differ from what the founders of LUCOM advocate? It seems there might be a double standard, unless I'm missing something. Why praise BYU and say they should have a med school and then shun another religious school?
Click to expand...

Well, I opened a can of worms didn't I? I'm not going to get in a religious debate here because I'm not going to change anyone's mind. I'm very committed to my LDS faith, but I respect that a lot of (my very favorite) posters have a very different background and perspective than I do.

I will say this, however, about BYU vs. LUCOM. BYU makes its code of conduct very clear from the beginning. It's all over the place. Literally the very first page on the online application is a description of the honor code with an electronic signature you must 'sign' before you even fill out the app. I understand why someone who is not LDS or at least a conservative religious person would be miserable there, but the school really does try to make sure applicants are a good match for the school's mission.
 
Higherprimate said:
I see where you are coming from and it makes sense. Religion aside, yes BYU is a great school but they do require prayer in every class and you are required to take religious classes. I wonder how that would be worked out if they one day got a medical school.
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They would probably require prayer in every class and require you to take religious classes.
 
Awesome Sauceome said:
Conjecture indeed...

This whole freaking thread is conjecture. I have never seen such an organized mass of hypocrites and people who are talking out of their @ss (ie. with no factual experience) in my entire life.
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For what it is worth I said that both qualitative and quantitatively. When I was a CC student in the area we were given information about outcomes, entrance stats etc. The average cc student in VA had a higher gpa and sat than liberty.
The average cc student had a higher outcome ( graduation and 4 year placement) and job placement as well.
And outcome wise we could get very into 4 year schools of our choosing in the state.

This isn't conjecture. This is simple fact. Liberty is a very very lowly regarded school in the area. You can choose to entirely ignore the reality and pretend that it's ok for an online school to have a DO school. But you're digging your graves with that leniency.
 
serenade said:
For what it is worth I said that both qualitative and quantitatively. When I was a CC student in the area we were given information about outcomes, entrance stats etc. The average cc student in VA had a higher gpa and sat than liberty.
The average cc student had a higher outcome ( graduation and 4 year placement) and job placement as well.
And outcome wise we could get very into 4 year schools of our choosing in the state.

This isn't conjecture. This is simple fact. Liberty is a very very lowly regarded school in the area. You can choose to entirely ignore the reality and pretend that it's ok for an online school to have a DO school. But you're digging your graves with that leniency.
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Sorry, my post about conjecture wasnt actually necessarily pointed at the stats thing. I am from that area, I know Liberty isnt drawing in the cream of the crop. And whether or not schools like this should have a DO school is up to an entirely different debate (should schools like Touro or Lecom exist then? seeing as they had even less resources than Liberty and didnt even have any kind of undergrad, period?). My comment on conjecture was more or less to the fact that in essence, a lot of the comments on this thread really are just opinions. Whether one of us thinks strongly in one direction or the other, it basically doesnt matter, you know? Because the school is trucking ahead regardless of whether we are whining and crying about it, for what is seemingly months, on here. After these months and multiple threads have gone by arguing back and forth, having even my own opinion change and reshape, I think we should all just seriously stop.

Whether we like the school or not, it is GOING to continue existing. We might as well give the students there, which we have all agreed on are likely all decent people, the benefit of the doubt - enough to cheer them on and see how they do. My genuine hope is that their students really can overcome any adversity there (via in ideology or with the actual school setup itself) and can end up being solid physicians. I mean could any of us really say differently? That we would want anyone (whether we know them or not) to not do well in the school that they invested hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of their life?

So yea, a lot of what has been said is conjecture on both sides of the fence. But you know what, past all opinions, I am giving LUCOM a chance. Give them a couple years, let them have their students take boards, have a match or two go through. Why do we keep going through this with so many of the new schools that open up - religious or not. After a couple years THEN real facts can come out, not just the conjecture that is thrown back and forth at a whim. Can we at least all agree on that, that against all odds, we really do want their students to succeed and would want them to be competent physicians - both for their own livelihood and for their patients?
 
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Honesty a part of me wants them to succeed for the sake of their own success. But I want LUCOM dead.

Regarding Touros and Lecom's. Honestly, yes. A few of them probably shouldn't exist.

Touro has 4 campuses and owns an MD school.

Lecom owns 3 campuses and probably will within time get another one.

There is an enormous issue within osteopathic medical school accreditation in that we allow Walmart style expansion without any reasonable build up for resources, respect, or assurances that these schools will provide for their students at a level that is adequate ( LCME adequate, not coca adequate).

When it comes down to it we either limit the expansion. Or we risk having a die off happening sooner or later and with it an enormous amount of respect for the osteopathic medical field.

In any case, expansion in my opinion is a threat to further integration. Coca will try to fight for schools that can never meet even a lax LCME standard and that puts established schools like mine in a bad basket.
 
serenade said:
Honesty a part of me wants them to succeed for the sake of their own success. But I want LUCOM dead.

Regarding Touros and Lecom's. Honestly, yes. A few of them probably shouldn't exist.

Touro has 4 campuses and owns an MD school.

Lecom owns 3 campuses and probably will within time get another one.

There is an enormous issue within osteopathic medical school accreditation in that we allow Walmart style expansion without any reasonable build up for resources, respect, or assurances that these schools will provide for their students at a level that is adequate ( LCME adequate, not coca adequate).

When it comes down to it we either limit the expansion. Or we risk having a die off happening sooner or later and with it an enormous amount of respect for the osteopathic medical field.

In any case, expansion in my opinion is a threat to further integration. Coca will try to fight for schools that can never meet even a lax LCME standard and that puts established schools like mine in a bad basket.
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fear mongering. lets just see how it plays out. It is what it is...no need to stress over it. A failing DO school wouldn't look good for the profession, lets hope it succeeds rather than praying that it fails..jesus (pun intended).

@allantois : whats wrong with having a lot of online students? My university has some online students (no where close to Liberty) but i'd bet you my bottom dollar my university is much worse than liberty in terms of academics. Think close to 90% acceptace rate and now they're considering dropping the SAT as a requirement theyre so desperate for students. Regardless, quite a few students here matriculate into medschool. I dont see the big deal, its up to the student to succeed. Just as we'll see at LUCOM...the COM you attend doesnt matter, its largely up to the individual to succeed.
 
asdf123g said:
fear mongering. lets just see how it plays out. It is what it is...no need to stress over it. A failing DO school wouldn't look good for the profession, lets hope it succeeds rather than praying that it fails..jesus (pun intended).

@allantois : whats wrong with having a lot of online students? My university has some online students (no where close to Liberty) but i'd bet you my bottom dollar my university is much worse than liberty in terms of academics. Think close to 90% acceptace rate and now they're considering dropping the SAT as a requirement theyre so desperate for students. Regardless, quite a few students here matriculate into medschool. I dont see the big deal, its up to the student to succeed. Just as we'll see at LUCOM...the COM you attend doesnt matter, its largely up to the individual to succeed.
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Just go attend LUCOM, alright...
 
asdf123g said:
sure, if it seems to be a fit for me. Good rebuttal.
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It's not a rebuttal. It's me conceding and wishing you luck in life.

This thread has continued for long enough and I have no intention of repeating what I believe any longer nor do I gain anything from attempting to sway your opinion.

If you wish to attend LUCOM, then good for you. But you've obtained your answer to through this thread. It's not just premeds who dislike LUCOM. Program directors like gyngyn have made their claim and other medical students and faculty.
I and others have mentioned also that the school is not respected within their community and area. Whether you chose to ignore this is not important either way. The answer already is here, program directors will not like you or give you any brownie points from attending LUCOM.


Mods, you may as well lock this thread as the answer has been succinctly answered to the best it will ever be.
 
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