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Is there anyone (in a MD program) who has worked with a DO? If so, how were they?

Discussion in 'Medical Students - MD' started by jubei0766, Oct 22, 2001.

  1. jubei0766

    jubei0766 Member
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    I am just wondering how other M.D.s consider D.O. doctors in general. Your honest answers will be appreciated. Thanx!
     
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  3. efs

    efs SDN Advisor
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    I worked in the military as a 91C (LPN) for a long time. In general DOs are considered the same as MDs. I have seen a difference in the way the approach patients. Relatively minor and may be more due to inividual differences rather than training.

    I am currently a DPM student at an osteopathic school, so I have had an opportunity to see many in training. In addition, I have seen many in practice prior to school. I also considered the DO route, but found DPM more to my liking. (YMMV)

    From my experience most DOs in practice do not depend on OMT and so forth to any great extent. Most pratice under the same principles as MDs. They do have a few other things they can fall back on, but in pratice this is really a minor point.

    Other opinions may vary.
     
  4. droliver

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    Two of my medicine chief when I was in med school back in 96-98 were DO's. One was so-so, the other was a stud & easily one of the best residents at our school (props to you Rey Rodriguez). I have worked with an ER resident here @ Louisville who was DO & he was very competent
     
  5. turtleboard

    turtleboard SDN Advisor
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    Often times it's difficult to even know you're with one of those DOs unless you look at his badge. And even then, once the shock wears off, it's hard to see a difference. They don't necessarily advocate one thing over another and they seem to function much like the rest of us.

    In all seriousness, DOs are just as good if not better. OMT is a useful tool for all physicians and, quite honestly, all of us should know a little OMT for the treatment of musculoskeletal problems.

    If osteopathic med school is where you want to go, good luck. Don't let all DO-bashers out there discourage you.
     
  6. jubei0766

    jubei0766 Member
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    thanx for your encouraging replies!
     
  7. emedpa

    emedpa GlobalDoc
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    our er chief is a D.O.
    he is among the best we have and very easy to get along with.D.O.'s can work anywhere an MD can. most places now post jobs as DO/MD needed for X
     
  8. PimplePopperMD

    PimplePopperMD Senior Member
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    On the wards, there is NO distinction. In my rotations, there are MD and DO students, side by side. Our residents are MDs and DOs. DOs are *NOT* better than MDs. MDs are *NOT* better than DOs. Let me repeat... THERE IS NO DISTICTION. We're all great !! *pat on the back*

    The distinction lies in med school admissions, and in premed minds. It dies there. I was asking the SAME questions three years ago (or four?) when i was applying. i chose MD because it was where i wanted to be, and cheaper. In my mind, it's the SAME THING. After all, the most important part of school is 3rd and 4th year, and we share hospital sites. What else is more convincing?
     
  9. jylu

    jylu Junior Member
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    No difference. However, big name hospitals and private groups don't tend to hire them for "cosmetic" reasons. Patients tend to gravitate to MDs because they are more comfortable with a doctor having a "MD" at the end of their names. A DO degree is virtually unknown to most people.

    Sounds stupid, but I've been told this multiple times in the past.
     
  10. 12R34Y

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    jylu,

    that's not exactly true...........DO's are very common in many institutions and in private groups. YOu may not even know you are working with or around one.

    later
     
  11. jylu

    jylu Junior Member
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    I know and work with a number of DOs and that's where I got my info from. Many of them are great physicians and a few of them are a cut above many of the MD fellows at my program.

    Unfortunately, the degree carries a social stigma with it in the allopathic medical world. A lot of MDs think that DOs are people who just couldn't get into an allopathic program. Just take a look at a number of threads in the DO group -- for crying out loud, there are a number of people there who would love to see the DO degree changed to "MDO."
     
  12. SimulD

    SimulD Senior Member
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    I don't know if this is propaganda I've heard or just something going on in Michigan (where I grew up) or what, but ...

    Patients can't get enough of DOs. I've heard that many DOs have to turn down patients like mad. I have family members who prefer DOs (kinda sucks, I'm at an allo school .. they better not turn me down, I'm family!) and the ones in my hometown are really doing well for themselves.

    Strange, all this stuff (e.g. in the other post about changing to M.D.O.) ... the way I see it as a student, I think patients are getting more and more educated and want choices for their health needs. And it makes sense that some would feel that a DO would be right for them.

    A question for MDs or MD students: if you have a patient with persistent low back pain and you can't get rid of it, wouldn't you want to at least try the OMM option? Seriously, if you had a DO colleage who did OMM, wouldn't you refer your patient to her? I mean if it works, your patient's pain is gone, and if it doesn't, no harm done.

    If you choose DO, good for you. If you choose MD, good for you, too. Trust me, there's no secret handshake or magic medicine on the MD side that makes you a better doc. And one day if one of you guys could teach me some techniques, I'd love that.

    Simul
    Tulane Med '05
     
  13. sbla

    sbla New Member

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    Hello all, Im new to these forums and joined because there were a couple of posts I wanted to reply to, including this one. I am a second year ER resident. Throughout medschool (MD) and I must admit even now, I did not know much about DO's or their training. I now work with a few, for some reason I think emergency medicine programs have more of tradition with DOs and take more. Im writing this because I work with a some DOs now that I think are some of the top doctors I have worked with and if I can be another voice to change a stigma, I want to. You will see in your medical training fairly soon that stigmas erase quickly after personal experience. There are people I train with from schools with national reps that dont pull their own weight and people from places youve never heard of that are fantastic, this is a reason why I think you will see as people get farther into their training, lists of "best" schools or programs become less meaningful. You can be from the "best" med school in the world, but if you dont get along with your colleagues and chip in when times get tough, you will be beaten with the US news and world report issue of best med schools by your fellow residents.
     
  14. Mr. Eastern Medicine

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    "if you have a patient with persistent low back pain and you can't get rid of it, wouldn't you want to at least try the OMM option?"

    SimuID, if I was an MD who has a patient with persisten low back pain, I would really recommend acupuncture treatments rather than OMM or referring to a chiropractor.
    Only my opinion~
     
  15. e2k

    e2k Member
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    I'm an MD student. I considered DO, and the only reason I didn't consider it more seriously is that DOs are not considered full MDs in many other countries, and I enjoy living abroad.

    DOs take all the same exams and learn most of the same information that MDs do, except they also learn manipulation.

    I know one MD who said 'DOs are OK as long as they are Family Practice.' That may sum up some of the stigma against DOs - good generalists but lousy specialists.

    I have a feeling that attitude might be more related to the fact that people who go to DO schools are less likely to be interested in hardcore specialties.

    After resideny training, I suspect the gap between the two schools is minimal: residency molds you more than med school. The last two letters of your title are pretty insignificant when you're a specialist.
     
  16. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Enzyme Regulators, Ride!
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    When I was a high-schooler my primary referred me to a dermatologist and I thought nothing of what kind of doctor he was, he took care of me well enough.

    Years later while heading into my primary's office I ran into him again, talked about medicine and getting into medical school a bit and I found out he was a DO. He summed up his personal feelings on the matter by saying that his local advertisements [in the phonebook] are under "P" for physician, not "D & O" or "M & D". Business for him has been great and typically the only people that question him about being a "DO" are people that ironically know more about medical training than the average person, especially pre-meds ;) . dh
     
  17. dcdo

    dcdo Senior Member
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    There is no difference between manipulative techniques from a DC vs a DO,only that a DC is more experienced at doing them. On the other hand,a DC is more likely to recommend a long tx course than a DO.
     
  18. emedpa

    emedpa GlobalDoc
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    correct me if I am wrong, but aren't D.C.'s only trained in spinal manipulation while D.O.'s can manipulate joints as well?
     
  19. Slingblade the Surgeon

    Slingblade the Surgeon Senior Member
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    Do DC's manipulate fascia?
     
  20. melancholy

    melancholy 1K Member
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    From what I thought, chiropractors can perform techniques on other joints in addition to the vertebrae. I don't _think_ they manipulate fascia, but I'm curious enough to call up a friend who is in chiropractic school to find out. It would probably be educational to also "compare notes" to notice the differences in some of the techniques they use in relation to OMM. (as some of the techniques are pretty close to each other)
     
  21. Freeeedom!

    Freeeedom! Senior Member
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    Don't forget there is now a DPT which, in some states, manipulate also. But manipulation is only a single form of manual medicine. PT's, ATC's and others have been using "muscle energy", myofascial release", "counterstrain points" etc for YEARS. The point being that a COMPLETE physician knows when and when NOT to use such techniques. And can control what can be used in addition to manual techniques, ie drugs, surgery.
     
  22. Osler Penfield

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    People people people....let me give a different perspective on this whole DO issue. A lot of patients love DOs because they usually are more friendly, have better bedside manner etc... They are usually not as competitive so they are easy to get along with. HOWEVER, DOs are NOT as competent as MDs. Just look at the requirements to get into DO schools and who is accepted. They, on average, have far LOWER IQs than MDs. Sure they are nice people but they are not brilliant. This, of course, brings up the issue of what we as patients value most in a physician...what 3 qualities on this list do we value most in physicians: competence, honesty, expertise, compassion, benificence, objectivity, paternalistic, caring, intelligence.

    Think about it...everyone will have their own answer but if u r looking for extreme intelligence and competence, do NOT go to a DO. People like to believe everyone was created equal but the reality is that some people are smarter than others. The most brilliant people who want to be physicians become MDs NOT DOs. You people know it so just face it!
     
  23. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member
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    Kumma ons nowa! Weesa jus as smarts as yousa!
     
  24. jubei0766

    jubei0766 Member
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    Dear Osler....that was pretty cold. Do you have a good bedside manner?
     
  25. jimjones

    jimjones Senior Member
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    Actually.... perhaps instead of the smarter folk being the MD's.. I'd suggest maybe its the more scholastically mindaed. So while those who are going to be DO's were out having fun, enjoying life, getting laid, etc. and the MD's were at home studying really hard.
     
  26. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Enzyme Regulators, Ride!
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    As far as the failed intelligence argument goes, keep in mind that Ted Kaczynski, the infamous 'unabomber', was a Harvard graduate who also earned a masters and PhD in mathematics from the University of Michigan. My point is that intelligence does not necessarily correlate with competance.

    Digressing considerably, this is certainly a truism with physicians as well. I would argue that Osler's supposedly superior diagnostic skills will get him nowhere without the ability to gain the confidence of his patient. Intelligence definitely does not correlate with bedside manner.

    But what the hell, he was just trying to get a rise out of everybody anyway. And if not, long live the premed mentality! Even after acceptance to medschool! :eek: ;) dh
     
  27. DrStacey69

    DrStacey69 Member
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    Funny, I graduated from Johns Hopkins with a degree in molecular microbiology and immunology, and yet I am in an osteopathic medical school. I guess the folks in the JHU admissions office didn't realize they were accepting a halfwit. Sir William Osler must be spinning in his grave. :rolleyes:

    Incidentally, some of my NYCOM colleagues had attended NYU, Columbia, Penn, and Cornell; graduates have gone on to residencies (and fellowships) in the Cleveland Clinic, Shock Trauma, Mass General, and Yale, to name a few.

    Not bad for a bunch of subliterate troglodytes, eh? :p
     
  28. Soupbone

    Soupbone Member
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    Osler,

    Pretty good troll message...

    :)

    The DO vs. MD arguement is almost as good as any state football rivalry.


    S0upb0ne
    UASOM MSIV
     
  29. Osler Penfield

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    My apologies for being so harsh. In many countries (even in Canada, where all the medical schools and affiliated hospitals belong to the AMA), it is illegal for DOs to practice. There has to be a reason for that...so that was the basis for my argument. But, upon further research, I learned that the training is almost identical to that of an MD program. I spoke too quickly, therefore, i apologize if I hurted anyone's feelings. I suck. :(
     
  30. Osler Penfield

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    I guess i am the moron. "Hurted"...hehehehehehe
     
  31. ckent

    ckent Membership Revoked
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  32. cushing

    cushing Junior Member

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    there have been DOs that have done fellowships here both in neurology and neurosurgery
     
  33. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member
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    None of you people are truly serious are you? Allopathic students were studying while Osteopathic students were getting laid? Come on.

    As far as canada goes...well, who cares about canada?
     
  34. jimjones

    jimjones Senior Member
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    That's the first time I've ever been asked to get serious by a clown. :p
     
  35. praying4MD

    praying4MD 2K Member
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  36. pags

    pags Senior Member
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    It's nice to see a positive post on the DO/MD issue. For the most part, there IS NO ISSUE among 99.9% of allopathic and osteopathic students. Interestingly enough, I am a 4th year DO student trying to get into a allopathic radiology residency. Eventhough, I've done well academically and have solid credentials, I am having difficulty in getting quality interviews compared to my fellow allopaths of similar academic achievements. I scratch my head wondering why this is so. Unfortunately, come to find out, DO's tend to get squelched out of competitive residencies at competitive allopathic programs. Obviously, this is not true in every case, but generally speaking, it is quite evident this year in the radiology plight. Some years ago, when I accepted to attend an osteopathic school, I was not aware of this extent of medical prejudice. Now, I'm feeling the pinch, and it's upsetting to know when you are just as good, if not better than most, you might not match becuase of the letters at the end of your name. That's tough to swallow right now when one has worked very hard to do well in osteopathic school wanting to obtain the very best.

    I'm not trying to be a Benedict Arnold of the osteopathic profession. However, the proof is in the pudding, and it seems to some program directors that DO's leave a bad taste.
     
  37. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member
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    Pags,
    YOu have a point, but I think that bit of prejudice you feel may be only in a few feilds, and it seems as if radiology may be one of them. EM is not...I have plenty of quality interviews, despite the "handicap" of being a DO.
     
  38. solie

    solie Senior Member
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    I just wanted to point out that it is NOT illegal for DOs to practice in Canada. Most provinces give them unlimited practice rights (ie. equivalent to MDs), and in others they can apply for practice rights on a case-by-case basis.
    I've corresponded with the director of the Canadian Association of Osteopathic Medicine, and he said that no DO who has applied through the case-by-case scenario has ever been denied full practice rights.
    This is especially true now that Canada is in such a crisis situation concerning the number of physicians leaving the country to work in the US. DOs are welcomed to help ease some of this strain on the system.
    Just a thought.
    :)
     
  39. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Enzyme Regulators, Ride!
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    ROFLMAO. I'm still laughing over the "get serious" clown bit. Either that was seriously hilarious or I've been studying too hard. I really needed that! :) :) :) dh
     
  40. rickmyster78

    rickmyster78 Member
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    it's nice to see MD/DO cooperation and respect for one another on this thread. :D
     
  41. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Enzyme Regulators, Ride!
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    Granted there are exceptions to the rule, but my perception of the MD/DO debate is that it is largely a pre-med phenomenom more than anything else. Several others have mentioned this as well on previous threads.

    People that argue vehemently on the subject are trying to convince themselves, not others. Kudos to all that share their views respectfully. dh
     
  42. About 40% of the students accepted into TUCOM's class of 2005 were from UCs. We also had students who got their Bachelor's at Cornell, Stanford, and Brown University.

    <a href="http://209.209.34.25/webdocs/admissions/tucominfo.htm" target="_blank">http://209.209.34.25/webdocs/admissions/tucominfo.htm</a>

    The UCs had 5 schools (UC Berkeley, UCLA, UC San Diego, UC Davis, and UC Irvine) ranked in the top 10 of the nation's public schools. UC Berkeley was ranked as the top public school in the nation. Including all the schools in the nation (public and private), they had six schools ranked in the top 50 (UC Berkeley, UC San Diego, UCLA, UC Irvine, UC Davis, and UC Santa Barbara).

    <a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/natudoc/tier1/t1natudoc.htm" target="_blank">http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/natudoc/tier1/t1natudoc.htm</a>

    UC Berkeley, UC Davis, and UCLA were the schools with the most matriculating students into TUCOM.

    The following is a match list for some of the DO schools that put one online:

    AZCOM:

    <a href="http://www.azcomstudents.org/html/match01.htm" target="_blank">http://www.azcomstudents.org/html/match01.htm</a>

    WesternU:

    <a href="http://student.westernu.edu/aecuenca/DO2004/COMP2001Matchresults.htm" target="_blank">http://student.westernu.edu/aecuenca/DO2004/COMP2001Matchresults.htm</a>

    Touro University - Allopathic Match:

    <a href="http://209.209.34.25/webdocs/registrar/AMA%20Results.htm" target="_blank">http://209.209.34.25/webdocs/registrar/AMA%20Results.htm</a>

    Touro University - Osteopathic/Out-0f-Match:

    <a href="http://209.209.34.25/webdocs/registrar/AOAMatch.htm" target="_blank">http://209.209.34.25/webdocs/registrar/AOAMatch.htm</a>
     

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