Is this a good Offer?

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podiatryrookie

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Hi everyone, i think i know the answer to this but here we go. I wanted to get your input on this offer i received form a PP.

Base salary of 75K then 30% of collections after the 75K has been met (about 250K in collections) There is a non compete of 15 miles radius, no surgical time unless i choose to, no call, no weekends.

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I would try to negotiate a signing bonus, like maybe a gift card to Friday’s or something.

But otherwise I think the offer is pretty good…





… for a nurse’s first job out of nursing school.
 
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Hi everyone, i think i know the answer to this but here we go. I wanted to get your input on this offer i received form a PP.

Base salary of 75K then 30% of collections after the 75K has been met (about 250K in collections) There is a non compete of 15 miles radius, no surgical time unless i choose to, no call, no weekends.

Do you have any other offers? Are you limited to a geographic area?
 
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How much did you make as a resident? You were probably pushing $75k depending on location. This offer is insane. Grow some balls and tell this owner to shove it
 
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Can't tell if this is a real offer or your just fking with us. And that tells you everything you need to know about podiatry lmao
 
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It's bad but thats sort of the offers we're getting. You could probably get 100k base but your bonus would be less and you likely won’t make the bonus in that case. If you’re locked into a location and this location is good, I’d honestly take it. The offers I’ve been getting have been from 60-120k with the higher end of that having some terrible terms.
 
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Reply back to him saying "I think you forgot a 1 in front of that 75k"
 
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Hi everyone, i think i know the answer to this but here we go. I wanted to get your input on this offer i received form a PP.

Base salary of 75K then 30% of collections after the 75K has been met (about 250K in collections) There is a non compete of 15 miles radius, no surgical time unless i choose to, no call, no weekends.

I’m not going to reply with a thoughtful or helpful response because this is a joke. Congrats on the new job tho
 
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Sorry OP. You went to 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of podiatry school, 3 years of residency, and $300k in debt to become a “foot and ankle surgeon” and only get paid as much as the Panda Express manager. Better luck in your next life.

1680645015435.jpeg
 
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I honestly was speechless when he said 75k. I guess ill continue nursing home care, i mean i make more than this working 2 days a week in nursing homes.
 
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Reply back to him saying "I think you forgot a 1 in front of that 75k"

Haha that’s almost exactly what I said to my first offer. It was from a particular podiatry school as my co-fellow and I were finishing fellowship in 2007.

They told us that the students loved working with us and we were providing a bunch of coverage in the clinic. They’re prepared to offer us $90,000. I said to the Dean that the offer was so low, I couldn’t negotiate from that point. Double it and we can negotiate from that point. And I tapped my co-fellow on the leg and said let’s go. We walked out.

Then a week later I received a call, $110,000. I said thank you and I wasn’t a math major, but I don’t think double 90 is 110. It went up to 130 with a promise not to tell anyone else, because we’d be almost the highest paid at the school. In the end, I went to Broadlawns and my first year salary was $185,000 + relocation and good benefits.

Listen, I believe everyone now about all the low ball offers. My third year residents got some horrible (criminal) offers. I was angry and wanted to call these people out. But they have me to counsel them and I get them a good attorney to negotiate their contracts. Young DPMs need that counsel and if all else fails, you’re better off starting your own practice than working under bad conditions. And there are still many places you can do that and ways to limit your start-up costs.

I think we need to do a better job educating people on this.
 
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Haha that’s almost exactly what I said to my first offer. It was from a particular podiatry school as my co-fellow and I were finishing fellowship in 2007.

They told us that the students loved working with us and we were providing a bunch of coverage in the clinic. They’re prepared to offer us $90,000. I said to the Dean that the offer was so low, I couldn’t negotiate from that point. Double it and we can negotiate from that point. And I tapped my co-fellow on the leg and said let’s go. We walked out.

Then a week later I received a call, $110,000. I said thank you and I wasn’t a math major, but I don’t think double 90 is 110. It went up to 130 with a promise not to tell anyone else, because we’d be almost the highest paid at the school. In the end, I went to Broadlawns and my first year salary was $185,000 + relocation and good benefits.

Listen, I believe everyone now about all the low ball offers. My third year residents got some horrible (criminal) offers. I was angry and wanted to call these people out. But they have me to counsel them and I get them a good attorney to negotiate their contracts. Young DPMs need that counsel and if all else fails, you’re better off starting your own practice than working under bad conditions. And there are still many places you can do that and ways to limit your start-up costs.

I think we need to do a better job educating people on this.
Why do so few of our other leaders have the balls to actually admit these problems exist in our profession?
 
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Why do so few of our other leaders have the balls to actually admit these problems exist in our profession?
Because this profession shouldn’t really exist, and deep down these guys are feeble, and don’t really have the sack to stand up to orthopedics. It’s not flowers and roses. They hate your guts everyone and the only reason big names lecture to pods is because big money is thrown their way. Remember, otherwise they hate your guts and think you shouldn’t be operating.

To quote braveheart in thick Mel Gibson Scottish accent “You're so concerned with squabbling for the SCRAPS from Longshank's(medicines) table that you've missed your God-given right to something better.”

In this case, the something better is NP/PA degree.
 
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We are much like dentistry where most are too busy keeping up with family and practice life to be a leader.
 
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I think we need to do a better job educating people on this.

On what exactly? That our greedy leadership sat on their hands while this profession swelled itself into ridiculous saturation resulting in an abysmal job market? I think the people are getting educated on this, and the pod school admissions numbers reflect this.
 
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April Fools was days ago
 
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I’m not going to reply with a thoughtful or helpful response because this is a joke. Congrats on the new job tho
much rather clip nails in nursing home than take this offer.
 
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A circle with a 15 mile radius covers 706 square miles. In my town of several hundred thousand people it swallows the entire town, all of our industry, all of our suburbs and expanding communities and then reaches miles down the road through nothingness to the next line of peripheral tiny towns.
 
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A circle with a 15 mile radius covers 706 square miles. In my town of several hundred thousand people it swallows the entire town, all of our industry, all of our suburbs and expanding communities and then reaches miles down the road through nothingness to the next line of peripheral tiny towns.

Well yeah, it’s a made up contract. Though I have heard of podiatrists trying to have non competes that cover entire counties. So maybe 15 miles isn’t so crazy after all…
 
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Well yeah, it’s a made up contract. Though I have heard of podiatrists trying to have non competes that cover entire counties. So maybe 15 miles isn’t so crazy after all…
The group I just left puts 50 miles from any of their offices in some contracts. They have 10+ offices in this state - plus more in other states. Non competes don't hold up at all here... but if that did, it'd cover the whole state, exception of basically uninhabited areas.

If you're an employer, never hurts to try to play at ppl's fear and ignorance, I guess. If it gets an associate to leave the area, as opposed to starting up or going to a competition office, they win. :)
 
Very first offer during my job hunt was $85k salary. He came up with that number on the spot. His office manager was next to me and gave a big smile as if I was going to say yes. They wanted me to man the nail jail 2-3 times a week because their RN has been “swamped.” Continued to tell me how much untapped pathology there is with these grateful patients. He said I can gladly have all these patients and be busy from day 1 surgically.

Another PP job offer was around $120k base, decent bonus incentives but fell through. I would have joined if things went through but their business took a hit

Last PP offer was more of a “you can be my fellow for a year to learn the ropes” and then I will hire you on as a “partner.” I didn’t take it but the following year he had a fellow but he didn’t last long. Left after 6 months to another part of the country. Churn and burn baby.

These were all offers in the region I wanted to settle down in. They all bragged a big game, especially the first offer and told me that they keep beating their own record for patients seen in a month, EVERY month for the past many years. Then why not pay me more than $85k?

May the force be with you my friend.
 
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They wanted me to man the nail jail 2-3 times a week because their RN has been “swamped.” Continued to tell me how much untapped pathology there is with these grateful patients.

I love this one. And you hear it way more often than you should. It’s doesn’t even make sense when you think about it. Patients have to have significant vascular disease or LOPS to qualify for nail care, but TFP practice owner tries to convince you they will be great future surgical candidates. Clown world.
 
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Very first offer during my job hunt was $85k salary. He came up with that number on the spot. His office manager was next to me and gave a big smile as if I was going to say yes. They wanted me to man the nail jail 2-3 times a week because their RN has been “swamped.” Continued to tell me how much untapped pathology there is with these grateful patients. He said I can gladly have all these patients and be busy from day 1 surgically.

Another PP job offer was around $120k base, decent bonus incentives but fell through. I would have joined if things went through but their business took a hit

Last PP offer was more of a “you can be my fellow for a year to learn the ropes” and then I will hire you on as a “partner.” I didn’t take it but the following year he had a fellow but he didn’t last long. Left after 6 months to another part of the country. Churn and burn baby.

These were all offers in the region I wanted to settle down in. They all bragged a big game, especially the first offer and told me that they keep beating their own record for patients seen in a month, EVERY month for the past many years. Then why not pay me more than $85k?

May the force be with you my friend.

My personal favorite from coming out of residency was a PP offer for a cool 100k, no bonus structure. To their credit, the path to partnership (although ridiculously overpriced) was laid out in the initial contract.

When I asked about bonus structure and told them it was pretty standard to have one they replied, "we found it gets too complicated to try to track where every dollar of revenue comes from, so that's why we don't offer it."

The partner that told me this was, at the time a prominent member on the state board of a state with many pods and many pod residencies. I was astounded that he thought that was a good answer. A) You're lying, B) if you're not lying, that is even worse.

Good ole podiatry.
 
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Podiatry is podiatry and the leaders are not any better to work for than any other podiatrist on average.

They might not be busy enough for an associate or they might be predatory and have several associates. It does not matter the end result is the same. Do not be the friendly young doctor’s experiment for an associate or the older doctor’s experiment who claims he is slowing down and retiring soon…..those rarely work out any better than all the other associate arrangements.

Unless there are partners who have all been there a long time look at it as a temporary job to stay a couple years and move on.

Rule number 1 after graduating redocency

1. Do not work as an associate for another podiatrist *******


******you might have to initially, but leave as soon as possible and do not forget rule#1.
 
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I think ignorance is also somewhat of an issue. My partners just have no idea what the student loan burden now days is, and they think that because they earned $85k coming out in 1999, that $100k is a great deal. When I told them what types of offers my hospital friends were getting they almost choked.

Curious what the consensus is for a fairly compensated PP associate? Take home pay/benefits compared to collections.
 
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The owner really should want to offer a bonus structure because then the associate is accountable for their own productivity. A lot can happen when you're alone in the room with a patient.

Patient has heel pain: do you offer DME (orthotics, nightsplint, etc?) or do you just send them for PT and wish them good luck?

Nailcare patient has secondary complaint: do you take the time to work it up and document the 9921x-25 or do you brush them off?

Hospital consult comes in: do you answer the consult or say you can't do it, call someone else, and go home and watch Netflix?

You wake up with a nasty case of the sniffles: show up to work or call in sick?
 
I think ignorance is also somewhat of an issue. My partners just have no idea what the student loan burden now days is, and they think that because they earned $85k coming out in 1999, that $100k is a great deal. When I told them what types of offers my hospital friends were getting they almost choked.

Curious what the consensus is for a fairly compensated PP associate? Take home pay/benefits compared to collections.
Fair for 7 years after college is 150K minimum with benefits as a basement for a year or two, with potential for bonus, then becoming a partner or remaining an associate with an eat what you kill arrangement. Hiring doctors should be willing to take a loss the first year and look at this is a longterm investment. God forbid the owner's salary goes down a small amount the first year or two.....I have talked with other specialties in solo practice and this was the case when they added an associate. They also know they have to pay a fair salary if they are hiring.

Some practices are unable to pay this and many are unwilling to because they do not have to. Many are afraid an associate will be unmotivated if the base is too high.

What is fair does not usually exist for podiatry associates. There are exceptions, but most of those involve starting as an associate in a non saturated market with a clear path to partnership.

Unless you are willing to walk or have better offers they have the upper hand and what is fair often matters very little as an associate in this profession.

As far as collections 33 percent seems the most common after 3X base, but do not expect greater than 40 percent even if minimal benefits and strictly on an eat what what you kill arrangement. Some arrangements offer no base or benefits and only 30 percent....rarely a good situation.Arrangements might be higher for DME and lower for grafts. Benefits will not be great. High deductible health insurance, malpractice, a few percent 401K match, a couple weeks PTO and a couple thousand for CME. The less saturated areas who want a longterm situation might offer 4-6 weeks PTO and a little more $ for CME and a week or two off for it.
 
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The owner really should want to offer a bonus structure because then the associate is accountable for their own productivity. A lot can happen when you're alone in the room with a patient.

Patient has heel pain: do you offer DME (orthotics, nightsplint, etc?) or do you just send them for PT and wish them good luck?

Nailcare patient has secondary complaint: do you take the time to work it up and document the 9921x-25 or do you brush them off?

Hospital consult comes in: do you answer the consult or say you can't do it, call someone else, and go home and watch Netflix?

You wake up with a nasty case of the sniffles: show up to work or call in sick?

This is a highly private practice thought process
 
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Please elaborate

The notion that associates are lazy and thus the scumbag private practice owners’ excuse for only offering a nurse’s salary… just a facade to screw the associate.
 
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@Pronation

It's human nature. We've all heard of docs (any specialty, not just pods) who are salaried at the VA or Kaiser and just want to see their 40 pts/week and punch out and go home. Why try any harder?

My friend was in a contract with an untenable bonus. So he just phoned it in everyday until his contract was up. Zero effort.

People respond to incentives. This is one of the most empirically reproducible features of human behavior.
 
People respond to incentives. This is one of the most empirically reproducible features of human behavior.

People make pennies in residency and work very hard because people spent years in school not to go home and watch Netflix.
Your base salary is an "incentive", but if you are getting paid 75K and expected to go see gas gangrene on not insured person on Friday 10 pm in the hospital, then you better say "no". There is a self respect comes with any job.
If salary is good, that's the incentive.
And we all know that in PP the "bonus incentive" is often just a lie to lure a desperate person into a rat race. Anyone who interviewed at PP heard "I am paying you 90K but you easily can triple that if you work hard", in reality all those associates working 6 days a week and taking call never reach those bonuses.
Podiatrists are not investment bankers who can triple or quadruple their base salaries with a "bonus". If someone wants you to work 5 days a week, take call, and in addition "work harder for the bonus", that's insanity.
 
Well if we're going to persist with the assumption that production incentives don't matter (they do) and that everyone gives 100% no matter what (they don't) here's another reason to offer a bonus structure that is attainable and worthwhile:

It is often cited on here that there is large variance in candidate quality in school and in residency. Much of this will translate to variability in "intrinsic productivity." As an owner, one way to separate productive from unproductive associates is to offer a good bonus structure. Good help isn't cheap and cheap help isn't good.
 
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I don't think most would be complaining if bases were 200K and bonuses were typically 50-100K most years.

The problem is that many make 100K give or take and bonuses are often difficult to achieve.

Don't work for another podiatrist (exceptions like everything, but usually true)

Work for a hospital, ortho, MSG etc
Work for yourself
Work with other podiatrists as partners
 
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Hi everyone, i think i know the answer to this but here we go. I wanted to get your input on this offer i received form a PP.

Base salary of 75K then 30% of collections after the 75K has been met (about 250K in collections) There is a non compete of 15 miles radius, no surgical time unless i choose to, no call, no weekends.
that is the worst offer I have ever encountered. I think that's a new record.
 
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that is the worst offer I have ever encountered. I think that's a new record.

Have you had the unfortunate experience of flipping through pm news or wherever these TFPs advertise their garbage associate positions. I wouldn’t say this garbage offer is that far off from the others.
 
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Screenshot_20230405_160527_Gmail.jpg


Look at this first one. Junior attending.... And then how about that third one. You can do a wound care fellowship in LA and have the opportunity to learn in a skilled nursing facility lololol. I have zero sympathy for anybody who takes these "fellowships"
 
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Check out the fourth one. Blunt honesty that you'll need to be married to a hospital. Pretty straightforward email address; surprised that one isnt a "fellowship" with all the "recon"
 
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Check out the fourth one. Blunt honesty that you'll need to be married to a hospital. Pretty straightforward email address; surprised that one isnt a "fellowship" with all the "recon"

Recon my arse. Google that email address and you’ll see that the owner who’s about 5 years out of one of the worst residencies in the damn country. Doing some toenail recon for sure.
 
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Recon my arse. Google that email address and you’ll see that the owner who’s about 5 years out of one of the worst residencies in the damn country. Doing some toenail recon for sure.
Hey now, don't slight the five other finalists....

Wycoff Heights NY
Atlanta - DVA
Cleve Univ Hosp / KSU
Phoenix - DVA
Jamaica NY
Bay Pines -DVA

...major pad-skiving and medi-honey and Formula-18 recon.

Now, the results envelope please...
 
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View attachment 368937

Look at this first one. Junior attending.... And then how about that third one. You can do a wound care fellowship in LA and have the opportunity to learn in a skilled nursing facility lololol. I have zero sympathy for anybody who takes these "fellowships"
On a positive note there is lots of good meme material here.
 
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Recon my arse. Google that email address and you’ll see that the owner who’s about 5 years out of one of the worst residencies in the damn country. Doing some toenail recon for sure.
Thats why I cant wait to see someone report on this "recon" job... I smell lowball offer to look at heel eschars for sure
 
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