Pick One

  • Israel (MD program)

    Votes: 43 18.9%
  • Caribbean (MD program)

    Votes: 28 12.3%
  • DO Schools

    Votes: 147 64.8%
  • Change Career Track

    Votes: 8 3.5%

  • Total voters
    227

rachel711

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Which of these ways would you advise a sub-SDN caliber MD applicant to fall back on if US med school route doesn't pan out?

Both give you U.S. MD degree. The Israel program doesn't require one taking the FLEX (foreign med boards), not sure about Caribbean schools.
 

sunny123

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guitarguy09

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I would probably do the Caribbean route last. Making the decision between the MD from Israel or a DO from the U.S. is tougher. I guess it depends on whether you care about the suffix after your name. I think there are some good DO programs in the U.S., much better than many of the Caribbean schools. I would suggest looking into the DO route to see if you agree with that mentality and are interested in it. Also, I would try and get the USMLE scores/pass rates reported by the graduates of the MD school in Israel. Hope that helps.
 

flash

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If I were in your position, I would do Sackler in Israel above all else. But I'm from NY and their residency placement is impressive in this area. I don't know how accepted they are in say Wisconsin or other areas.
 

Cerberus

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Sackler and Ben Gurion are both good. I applied to them as backups. Of course, I want to practice in NY and they both are great for getting NY residencies.
 

gbiz

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I think a DO is the opposite of DONT?

:D
 

albinomidget

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rachel711 said:
Which of these ways would you advise a sub-SDN caliber MD applicant to fall back on if US med school route doesn't pan out?

Both give you U.S. MD degree. The Israel program doesn't require one taking the FLEX (foreign med boards), not sure about Caribbean schools.
I think your question is a bit flawed. If you go to Sackler or Ben Gurion you graduate as a US doctor, since they are accredited NY schools, even though they are not accredited by the LCME.

Also, the foreign medical graduates used to take a seperate test besides USMLE 1 and 2. The test they took is now mandatory for all US med students, and is known as USMLE Step 2 CS (clinical skills). I'm not sure what FLEX is, although I think it might be an older standardized test that some states mandated. If you want to get a residency in the US, you either need to take the USMLE (allo/osteo) or COMLEX (osteo).

Most people who I've spoken to who went to St. Georges are very happy with their curriculum and quality in education, and the same can be said for Sackler.

Perhaps the location of the school is a priority, and not the degree that you get. Most non-gunners realize that everyone uses the same textbooks and review books, no matter what school you go to.
 

futuremed

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If you go to either Sackler or Ben Gurion, you will be an IMG, and will not be considered an American doctor. I did a lot of research on this topic, and spoke to two Sackler alumnis who are doing their residency right now, and they both confirmed that. They also informed me that some residency programms will be closed to IMG (no matter Sackler or SGU grad.)Both Israeli schools seem to be pretty good, but as a graduate of either one you will be an IMG.
 

virilep

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gbiz said:
I think a DO is the opposite of DONT?

:D
have u ever had any experience with DOs? and plus... i think ur my arch enemy on here cuz of ur avatar! ha
 

albinomidget

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futuremed said:
If you go to either Sackler or Ben Gurion, you will be an IMG, and will not be considered an American doctor. I did a lot of research on this topic, and spoke to two Sackler alumnis who are doing their residency right now, and they both confirmed that. They also informed me that some residency programms will be closed to IMG (no matter Sackler or SGU grad.)Both Israeli schools seem to be pretty good, but as a graduate of either one you will be an IMG.
I stand corrected. Thanks for the info. By the way, why does it matter if they're accredited by NY board of Regeants if you still graduate as an IMG?
 

Phil Anthropist

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albinomidget said:
I stand corrected. Thanks for the info. By the way, why does it matter if they're accredited by NY board of Regeants if you still graduate as an IMG?
My understanding is it's a licensure issue--and by that I mean whether or not the state recognizes that MD degree. There are many MD degrees that are not recognized in the US. That's why when you hear most people talking about the major Carib schools, you tend only to hear SGU, Ross, and AUC, followed by Saba. These are the ones with the least licensure complications.

This is the part where I digress to procrastinate from studying for my test. :D

Another thing that I don't think too many people realize is that Israeli med schools are highly regarded. Ben Gurion and Sackler have major associations (e.g., Ben Gurion works in collaboration with Columbia University). The US grads of schools like these match in highly competitive residencies at what are considered to be some of the best hospitals in the nation. If you haven't seen their residency placements and the hospitals where they match, you may be in for a shock (esp. Sackler). I didn't see this mentioned yet (perhaps it has), but the big issue is safety. Israel isn't exactly safety central.

We're often ethnocentric and think US schools are ALWAYS better than foreign medical schools. Sure we'll joke around at the expense of offshore students, but realize those Carib students receive their training in US hospitals. The main reason it sucks to go to the Carib is that the students have a major disadvantage in the match. In fact, nearly 100% of the time US DOs are better off than Carib students when it comes to residencies. But don't assume that the Carib graduates aren't well trained. Get out in the real world and see some of these FMGs from highly respected foreign medical schools like RCSI (where your clinical training is not just two years, it's three), Sackler, U Santo Tomas, etc. and yes, even the dreaded Caribbean, and you'll see that many of these FMGs are as good as, and sometimes even better than, many of their US counterparts. Just try taking a look at the clinical faculty at US training hospitals...don't be surprised to see *gasp* FMGs in high positions.
 

GuyLaroche

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Isreal sounds like an exciting place to learn medicine. Imagine, all the rift and turmoil, the uncertainty of life, the blood, the victims, the feeling that every single thing matters. I imagine the medical centers are strong on trauma and emergency surgeries. I imagine that the medical establishments actually recognize their role and are not this entity of the learned-in-white-coats. Besides, Isreal has one of the most impressive, educated populace. I imagine the medical school is bursting with talented minds. Imagine being present in a historically relevant place at an important time in history learning and contributing to an important field. Isreal sounds like a good plan. Yes.
 

futuremed

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It does not really matter to residency directors whether you have graduated from Sackler, RCSI or a less prestigious SGU. Certain hospitals (like UCSF) will not take FMG from any school, and that is that. I found that out from a recent Sackler grad. who had to do his residency in North Carolina, even though he wanted to do it in California. He matched only in North Carolina, and that is where he had to go. Unfortunately, the "prestige" of offshore medical school does not seem to matter for certain specialties, or even certain hospitals. If FMGs are no allowed there, the name of the school will not help. If anything, I was informed, it is the board scores that will be a bigger factor in determing where you match.
I also spoke to a residency director in one the New York hospitals, and she confirmed all that by telling me that it does not matter to her whether the person comes from Sackler or Ross. She told me to worry about the boards, and making sure that your school is legitimate in New York. I gues my point is that there is not much difference between different foreign medical schools in the eyes of residency directors, as long as the school has rights in that state.
DO degree on the other hand, will not come with the same restrictions. The stigma will be there for both DO and FMG, but the rules will be more lenient for people with a DO degree. (By the way,I have no intention of recruiting people to DO schools, just sharing information I have gathered over time).
 

Phil Anthropist

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futuremed said:
It does not really matter to residency directors whether you have graduated from Sackler, RCSI or a less prestigious SGU.
Well now, we can't generalize all program directors. ;)
futuremed said:
Certain hospitals (like UCSF) will not take FMG from any school, and that is that. I found that out from a recent Sackler grad. who had to do his residency in North Carolina, even though he wanted to do it in California. He matched only in North Carolina, and that is where he had to go.
True, some hospitals are notorious for not taking foreign medical graduates. My understanding of the Residency Match, however, is that you rank the programs. You only match in one location; you don't match at more than one program. So if your friend matched in North Carolina, then that's where he would go. Even if you match at the program that you rank first, you still only match there and that's where you have to go.
futuremed said:
Unfortunately, the "prestige" of offshore medical school does not seem to matter for certain specialties, or even certain hospitals. If FMGs are no allowed there, the name of the school will not help.
Highly competitive specialties like rad onc, urology, derm, etc., are extremely difficult to obtain coming straight out of a foreign med school ("prestigious" or not). Your last sentence here goes without saying.
futuremed said:
If anything, I was informed, it is the board scores that will be a bigger factor in determing where you match.
I think any medical student will agree that your USMLE scores are extremely important (or COMLEX if you're an osteopathic student and choose not to take the USMLE Steps).
futuremed said:
I also spoke to a residency director in one the New York hospitals, and she confirmed all that by telling me that it does not matter to her whether the person comes from Sackler or Ross. She told me to worry about the boards, and making sure that your school is legitimate in New York. I gues my point is that there is not much difference between different foreign medical schools in the eyes of residency directors, as long as the school has rights in that state.
You also have to consider that this is a residency director in New York, so I don't think you can accurately generalize for the residency programs in all other states, in all other hospitals. Her assessment will be true for her programs and possibly many others, but it's a huge leap to assume that her view follows for all other residency directors. I've met some residency directors that are FMGs--don't be surprised if their programs seem a little more welcoming to certain schools or FMGs from certain countries. Also, both Ross and Sackler students can do most of their clinicals in New York so they can often audition and make contacts that way. The residency directors may be able to see first-hand about a particular applicant or may obtain information from a familiar source (e.g., an attending in a neighboring hospital that the residency director knows). I've got some friends at Caribbean med schools that intend to apply almost exclusively at NY/NJ residency programs because they feel they'll have a better shot than if they were to apply to residency programs with similar reputations in other states.
futuremed said:
DO degree on the other hand, will not come with the same restrictions. The stigma will be there for both DO and FMG, but the rules will be more lenient for people with a DO degree.
Generally speaking, I'd agree with this statement. DOs, like I stated earlier, do tend to have an advantage in the match over the vast majority of FMGs. However, there are still some allopathic residencies that DOs have trouble getting (urology, rad onc, derm, ortho, neurosurg, ENT, ophthalmology). It sucks that the American Osteopathic Association backed out of the combined match. Of course, FMGs struggle trying to get these residencies too (probably even harder). But these residencies are pretty hard to get no matter where you go (even at US allo schools).
 

JAMMAN

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Although it may seem less desirable to train in a foreign country, in the long run a foreign MD is likely to keep more doors open than a US DO.
 

OSUdoc08

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JAMMAN said:
Although it may seem less desirable to train in a foreign country, in the long run a foreign MD is likely to keep more doors open than a US DO.
Not really. FMG's cannot be licensed in every state. DO's can.
 

futuremed

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"You only match in one location; you don't match at more than one program. So if your friend matched in North Carolina, then that's where he would go."

Phil Anthropist,
Of course he only matched in one place, but he did not have the interviews(number/quality) that he wanted because of his FMG status. This restricted his choice for certin locations. As a result he did his residency in a state different from where he wanted to be.
 

a_ditchdoc

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OSUdoc08 said:
Not really. FMG's cannot be licensed in every state. DO's can.

I am not aware of any state that specifically prohibits FMG's from being licensed. As long as the program meets there training length and educational standards, they usually have few problems getting a license. Although admittedly, some of the lesser known Carribean schools have had problems in certain states.
 

superflyDO

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Phil Anthropist said:
Generally speaking, I'd agree with this statement. DOs, like I stated earlier, do tend to have an advantage in the match over the vast majority of FMGs. However, there are still some allopathic residencies that DOs have trouble getting (urology, rad onc, derm, ortho, neurosurg, ENT, ophthalmology). It sucks that the American Osteopathic Association backed out of the combined match. Of course, FMGs struggle trying to get these residencies too (probably even harder). But these residencies are pretty hard to get no matter where you go (even at US allo schools).
Yes but DO's also have their own residencies that they can apply to in all of the specialties you mentioned (not sure about Rad Onc)... FMG's don't.
 

CerealBox

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I'd kind of like to go to school in the caribbean... beautiful, nice weather, relaxed.
But I want to get into a competitive residency program more. How much worse off are you coming from the caribbean?