Issues about DO degree that's been on my mind....

[Syncope82]

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the well known discrimination against DOs by some MDs,

though you are banned, I felt like commenting on this certain phrase....

this is completely wrong...the well known discrimination exists among pre meds and that's it!

my uncle (father's brother) is a DO along with 2 first cousins and none have them have ever reported that an MD treated them inferiorly or looked down on them....ever

in fact, a surprising percentage have asked for advice and some one on one lessons in learning OMM

There also many known post-op OMM procedures that shortens the time of recovery.....if you can activate someones lymph nodes, you can increase the healing process....and don't say it's bs.....because you can obviously activate the vagus nerve by simple vagus stimulation...so there is truth to the fact that the human body responds to "touch"

this so called stigma was over 15 years ago and does not exist in medical practicek, only among pre-meds

95% of patients have nooo clue!!

Another story----a good friend of mine got in a bad ski wreck and herniated cervical discs.....afte he recovered, he had recurrent hiccups...so bad that they would not go away and interfere with this breathing......no MD could find out what was wrong with him....and they sort of gave up until I referred him to an OMM specialist that we know. soo..what happeend??

well..for some reason...his left phrenic nerve was impinged and was firing signals a few milliseconds before the right phrenic nerve...so this delay caused the diaphgram to not compress "in sync"...hence the hickups...after 1 month of manipulation...no more hiccups!!!

 

[farnsworth]

though you are banned, I felt like commenting on this certain phrase....

this is completely wrong...the well known discrimination exists among pre meds and that's it!

my uncle (father's brother) is a DO along with 2 first cousins and none have them have ever reported that an MD treated them inferiorly or looked down on them....ever

in fact, a surprising percentage have asked for advice and some one on one lessons in learning OMM

There also many known post-op OMM procedures that shortens the time of recovery.....if you can activate someones lymph nodes, you can increase the healing process....and don't say it's bs.....because you can obviously activate the vagus nerve by simple vagus stimulation...so there is truth to the fact that the human body responds to "touch"

this so called stigma was over 15 years ago and does not exist in medical practicek, only among pre-meds

95% of patients have nooo clue!!

Another story----a good friend of mine got in a bad ski wreck and herniated cervical discs.....afte he recovered, he had recurrent hiccups...so bad that they would not go away and interfere with this breathing......no MD could find out what was wrong with him....and they sort of gave up until I referred him to an OMM specialist that we know. soo..what happeend??

well..for some reason...his left phrenic nerve was impinged and was firing signals a few milliseconds before the right phrenic nerve...so this delay caused the diaphgram to not compress "in sync"...hence the hickups...after 1 month of manipulation...no more hiccups!!!

It's not accurate to say that the "DO discrimination" (whether it's well-founded or not) is limited to pre-meds. I would say it tends to be more concentrated in foreign, older, or more elitist doctors, but it's not like there aren't a decent amount of doctors who feel MD>DO. I'm not saying "many". But there are some. Hopefully few.

 

[Syncope82]

It's not accurate to say that the "DO discrimination" (whether it's well-founded or not) is limited to pre-meds. I would say it tends to be more concentrated in foreign, older, or more elitist doctors, but it's not like there aren't a decent amount of doctors who feel MD>DO. I'm not saying "many". But there are some. Hopefully few.

well that person said it was "well documented" which is not the case...it is a rare anomaly....

we're not in the 60's 70's anymore...DO stigmas has almost ceased to exist since the late 1980's.....

you are always goign to have a small percentage that silently think they are better than DO's

and on the other hand, im sure there is a small percentage of hotshot DO's that laugh at MD's

and what about FMG's? they're discriminated against much more..and they are MD's

 

[RySerr21]

well that person said it was "well documented" which is not the case...it is a rare anomaly....

we're not in the 60's 70's anymore...DO stigmas has almost ceased to exist since the late 1980's.....

you are always goign to have a small percentage that silently think they are better than DO's

and on the other hand, im sure there is a small percentage of hotshot DO's that laugh at MD's

and what about FMG's? they're discriminated against much more..and they are MD's

if it is a rare anomaly....what are the chances of me working with two seperate residency directors (one for orthopedics and one for prevenive medicine) who both have told me DOs will always be at a slight disadvantage when applying to residency.

I agree that the stigma is less common and less strong among those who have it, but im not sure if its a rare anamoly yet...as unfortunate as that is.

 

[Syncope82]

if it is a rare anomaly....what are the chances of me working with two seperate residency directors (one for orthopedics and one for prevenive medicine) who both have told me DOs will always be at a slight disadvantage when applying to residency.

I agree that the stigma is less common and less strong among those who have it, but im not sure if its a rare anamoly yet...as unfortunate as that is.

they only consider you as a slight disadvantage..because like it or not...the allopathic program is a quite different from the DO..we are more anatomy based, versus science based...and because of that..we tend not to do as well on the USMLE's..which makes us disadvantaged

but do's have their own residencies..so i think it might be easier getting specliazed while being a DO than a MD since we can apply for both...but it's not vice versa

 

[RySerr21]

they only consider you as a slight disadvantage..because like it or not...the allopathic program is a quite different from the DO..we are more anatomy based, versus science based...and because of that..we tend not to do as well on the USMLE's..which makes us disadvantaged

but do's have their own residencies..so i think it might be easier getting specliazed while being a DO than a MD since we can apply for both...but it's not vice versa

what ever the reason...disadvantaged is disadvantaged, and a stigma is a stigma. for the record, neither mentioned lower USMLE scores as the reason. they both discussed the fact that "you went to a DO school...that is what puts you at a disadvantage" She said "if i had two applicants with exact same scores, grades, etc etc the MD would get it every time." She followed that up by saying that that never really happens, and they have had many DOs come through their residency... but off the bat you are at a slight disadvantage with DO after your name. She also used her own experiences to explain her reasoning...her daughter is at an MD school right now, and her best friend got rejected from all her MD schools but accpeted to some DO schools. thats just one example she used to why there is a slight disadvantage. I'm not saying its right, or wrong, or whatever...just saying what she said.

and i konw DOs have their own residencies...but we are talking about disadvantages/stigmas among MDs, it doesnt make sense to talk about DO residenceis because of course there will be no stigmas from MDs in a DO residency. and theres nothing wrong with doing a DO residency, i was just talking specifically about DOs interacting with MDs so it makes sense to talk about gaining acceptance to an MD residency.

 

[spazzz]

post the letter from the residency director again for more validity.....

 

[farnsworth]

Considering DO programs have 100% discrimination against MD students (as we don't even have access to them), you shouldn't be that shocked that MD programs favor MD applicants.

 

[RySerr21]

Considering DO programs have 100% discrimination against MD students (as we don't even have access to them), you shouldn't be that shocked that MD programs favor MD applicants.

that would make sense if MD's discriminated because "our students don't have access to your DO residencies, so we'll make it harder for you to get into ours." thats not the case.

post the letter from the residency director again for more validity.....

i'm not sure why the violin....no one is complaining. thanks tho.

 

[farnsworth]

that would make sense if MD's discriminated because "our students don't have access to your DO residencies, so we'll make it harder for you to get into ours." thats not the case.

Does it matter? MD programs prefer MD students, DO programs prefer DO students.

 

[BCLumas]

Does it matter? MD programs prefer MD students, DO programs prefer DO students.

Yes it does matter. When the Osteopathic residencies offer more specialties for their students to enter, then I'm sure you'll see less Osteopathic students applying to Allopathic residencies.

Does it offend you that Osteopathic students wish to get into Allopathic residencies? Are you saying that they should not have access to those residencies?

 

[RySerr21]

Does it matter? MD programs prefer MD students, DO programs prefer DO students.

yes it matters. they are two very different reasons, one is somewhat understandable (the reason you proposed) and one is b/c the DO education is inferior and produces a lesser caliber physician. you'd think we'd be passed the 2nd reason by now...but i guess not.

 

[farnsworth]

Yes it does matter. When the Osteopathic residencies offer more specialties for their students to enter, then I'm sure you'll see less Osteopathic students applying to Allopathic residencies.

Does it offend you that Osteopathic students wish to get into Allopathic residencies? Are you saying that they should not have access to those residencies?

It doesn't offend me that DO students want MD residencies, but it does offend me that we aren't extended the same privilege. Not because we're missing out all that much, but it's inconsistent with equality. Either we're equal or we're not. We could talk all day about why we show preference to our own students in our own residencies, I really don't think it's as simple as "MD preference = bigot....DO preference = integrity of DO profession".

yes it matters. they are two very different reasons, one is somewhat understandable (the reason you proposed) and one is b/c the DO education is inferior and produces a lesser caliber physician. you'd think we'd be passed the 2nd reason by now...but i guess not.

There are plenty of people (well...posters on SDN) who don't think MD students are fit to train in a DO residency because we don't have OMM. So yeah, belief of training superiority is a factor for DO's excluding MD's too.

My point is just that you guys should be pushing for opening DO residency spots to MD's. Until then, I don't want to hear any complaints about discrimination.

 

[JaggerPlate]

"you went to a DO school...that is what puts you at a disadvantage" She said "if i had two applicants with exact same scores, grades, etc etc the MD would get it every time."

This isn't shocking, nor does it represent the stigma. You are NOT an MD but you're applying for an MD residency. Of ****ing course the MD applicant, all else being equal, will get the spot. And, like she said, this doesn't ever happen because you really don't ever get two people that are equal. The fact that DOs can apply for MD residencies (but not the other way around) is always going to put a slight disadvantage to those set on going MD. all Allopathic residencies are split between US MD, FMG, and DO, but they are all technically US MD programs. It's not a shocker it goes to the US MD. The stigma that is being referred to is lack of general public knowledge and people thinking MD > DO, not residency programs. Don't buy into what everyone tells you.

 

[JaggerPlate]

It doesn't offend me that DO students want MD residencies, but it does offend me that we aren't extended the same privilege. Not because we're missing out all that much, but it's inconsistent with equality. Either we're equal or we're not. We could talk all day about why we show preference to our own students in our own residencies, I really don't think it's as simple as "MD preference = bigot....DO preference = integrity of DO profession".

Well with the attitude that you 'aren't missing out all that much,' it doesn't seem like you'd be all that interested in an AOA approved residency. Opening up DO residencies is considered by many to be a crucial step to proper integration, but don't expect it anytime soon. Also, don't act so arrogant, it's irritating. They aren't 'your' residencies unless you fund it out of your pocket, and it's easy to see why preference goes to MD students, but you seem to draw unnecessary and unfounded satisfaction in your logic. Finally, the 'equality' you refer to is real, but AOA slogans don't define what makes DO and MD physicians equal. You can take two physicians in the same field, one MD and one DO, and couldn't tell the difference. They both practice identical western medicine. This is where 'we are equal,' not in some weird approved way to explain what DO is.

There are plenty of people (well...posters on SDN) who don't think MD students are fit to train in a DO residency because we don't have OMM. So yeah, belief of training superiority is a factor for DO's excluding MD's too.

I don't think anyone believes that MDs aren't fit to train in AOA residencies, especially because most of them don't teach OMM, but those are the rules set by the governing body that runs the residency programs, not DO students. If you have an issue, try to get your complaints to the right people, not posters on SDN who may really want MDs in DO residencies but have no control over it.

My point is just that you guys should be pushing for opening DO residency spots to MD's. Until then, I don't want to hear any complaints about discrimination.

It sounds like YOU should be pushing. And once again ... your opinion seems very one sided, and you came to the wrong place if you don't want discussion. Use the ignore feature or simply leave the thread if the 'complaints' are bothering you. Or better yet, quit fueling them.

 

[RySerr21]

It doesn't offend me that DO students want MD residencies, but it does offend me that we aren't extended the same privilege. Not because we're missing out all that much, but it's inconsistent with equality. Either we're equal or we're not. We could talk all day about why we show preference to our own students in our own residencies, I really don't think it's as simple as "MD preference = bigot....DO preference = integrity of DO profession".



There are plenty of people (well...posters on SDN) who don't think MD students are fit to train in a DO residency because we don't have OMM. So yeah, belief of training superiority is a factor for DO's excluding MD's too.

My point is just that you guys should be pushing for opening DO residency spots to MD's. Until then, I don't want to hear any complaints about discrimination.

i've never heard anyone state that opinion (i'm not saying i dont believe you) and I'm not sure why they feel that way b/c unless its an OMM residency, that factor shouldn't matter.

 

[farnsworth]

Well with the attitude that you 'aren't missing out all that much,' it doesn't seem like you'd be all that interested in an AOA approved residency. Opening up DO residencies is considered by many to be a crucial step to proper integration, but don't expect it anytime soon. Also, don't act so arrogant, it's irritating. They aren't 'your' residencies unless you fund it out of your pocket, and it's easy to see why preference goes to MD students, but you seem to draw unnecessary and unfounded satisfaction in your logic.

I'm not sure what you're upset about, but I'm thinking it was the subtle "not that we're missing out on much" jibe. Alright, I'm sorry for making fun of DO residencies, that was offsides. The point was just that most DO students don't even prefer DO residencies. But you do see people on SDN claiming "it may even be easier to get a competitive residency as a DO, since we have access to all of the MD ones and DO ones", which is concurrently goading and misleading to say.

Finally, the 'equality' you refer to is real, but AOA slogans don't define what makes DO and MD physicians equal. You can take two physicians in the same field, one MD and one DO, and couldn't tell the difference. They both practice identical western medicine. This is where 'we are equal,' not in some weird approved way to explain what DO is.

I'm glad to hear that we all think MD=DO.

I don't think anyone believes that MDs aren't fit to train in AOA residencies, especially because most of them don't teach OMM, but those are the rules set by the governing body that runs the residency programs, not DO students. If you have an issue, try to get your complaints to the right people, not posters on SDN who may really want MDs in DO residencies but have no control over it.

I've read many comments on SDN that a DO is an MD "plus more!" and that since MD's don't learn OMM we shouldn't have access to DO residencies. I'm not so bored with my weekend that I want to take the time to hunt them down, but they're out there. I'm just glad that you (and others) appear to agree that MD's should have access to DO residencies.

It sounds like YOU should be pushing. And once again ... your opinion seems very one sided, and you came to the wrong place if you don't want discussion. Use the ignore feature or simply leave the thread if the 'complaints' are bothering you. Or better yet, quit fueling them.

Believe me, I'm not the only one who should be pushing. The day you open DO residencies to MD students is the same day I say we should be considered on the same playing field. Until then, I don't think MD programs should treat a DO student with equal consideration in MD residency selection, and I'm not alone in thinking that.

i've never heard anyone state that opinion (i'm not saying i dont believe you) and I'm not sure why they feel that way b/c unless its an OMM residency, that factor shouldn't matter.

I agree, but I have read that opinion on SDN. I'm glad to hear you don't think it's a pervasive opinion. Maybe you're right.

 

[Syncope82]

I also agree that MD's should be accepted to DO residencies where the residency is not specific in OMM.

take my uncle for example, he went on to do a osteopathic opthalmology resdiency....that field does not require any OMM knowledge....as a result, MD's should be allowed in

Only when DO's start treating MD's like equal, the MD's will treat the DO's as equal

but the exception is obviously a MD can't and shouldn't be able to be accepted in any OMM residency or OMM fellowship.


But you guys are talking about discrimination in preferrring a certain applicant over another...obviously MD's want MD's and it is harder for DO's to get in...but I don't consider that discrimination....whether you guys like it or not....the DO program is much different than the allopathic program...(not counting OMM)...anatomy is much more pronounced in DO schools and the boards are mostly anatomy based, not science or researched based as the USMLE. I sort of agree with this discriminatoin because DO's do it to MD's

The disrimination I am talking about that in the clinical field is more "low key"...like hush hush whispers like "that guy shouldn't be a surgeon...I got better grades..bla bla...I deserve more"....sorry to say...that does happen...and the anomisity is there

so..by someone actually confronting you....that is definitely an anomaly

 

[JaggerPlate]

I'm not sure what you're upset about, but I'm thinking it was the subtle "not that we're missing out on much" jibe. Alright, I'm sorry for making fun of DO residencies, that was offsides. The point was just that most DO students don't even prefer DO residencies. But you do see people on SDN claiming "it may even be easier to get a competitive residency as a DO, since we have access to all of the MD ones and DO ones", which is concurrently goading and misleading to say.

Yeah, my biggest beef was your residency comment. I always find it funny too because people bash them, but I guarantee if you opened them to MD students residences like ortho, derm, rads etc would be swamped with MD applicants. There is a bone of contention about this, and I think a lot of the time bashing ensues because of it. Also, your comment about the DO students don't prefer DO residencies is a bit off, especially for competitive ones.

I'm glad to hear that we all think MD=DO.

Me too.

I've read many comments on SDN that a DO is an MD "plus more!" and that since MD's don't learn OMM we shouldn't have access to DO residencies. I'm not so bored with my weekend that I want to take the time to hunt them down, but they're out there. I'm just glad that you (and others) appear to agree that MD's should have access to DO residencies.

I've read these comments plenty of times as well and completely disagree with them. DOs can't bitch and moan about not being seen as equals to MDs, and then try to say they are instead superior because they are MDs + OMM. That just doesn't make sense and imposes the same superiority complex and division that bothers so many. Also, I have mixed feelings about opening DO residencies to MD students. I agree that it would be the way to truly make everything equal, but I think it would really flood competitive residencies with too many applicants. It's definitely a great way to make everything truly equal, but I think there are issues behind doing something like that which are far more complex than the simple solution of making everything open to everyone. However, there are various issues with the AOA that will be worked on before something like this ever happens.

Believe me, I'm not the only one who should be pushing. The day you open DO residencies to MD students is the same day I say we should be considered on the same playing field. Until then, I don't think MD programs should treat a DO student with equal consideration in MD residency selection, and I'm not alone in thinking that.

This, in my opinion, is a double edged sword. I understand your feelings about people complaining about being discriminated when seeking MD residencies when DO residencies are completely closed to MDs. However, you have to remember that a governing body choose to open these residencies to DOs. Ergo, now that these doors are opened, the best and most qualified applicant should be selected. I agree that there is definitely some MD bias in certain programs, but if you have two applicants seeking one position and one is an MD with poor USMLE, no good letters of rec, with the personality of a brick and a DO with stellar COMLEX and USMLE, good letters, and makes a strong impression ... the MD should NOT get the position just because they are an MD. This makes no sense. Purposely picking the MD in this situation just shows extreme content in regards to AOA residencies only going to DOs and a poor decision with regards to training the 2nd best physician for the job (note, this is just an example, I am in no way trying to say that DOs are more personable or better interviewers or any of that jazz).


You seem like a level headed poster, and I completely understand your feelings regarding this issue. Maybe something will change in the near future, and until then the best thing to do is try to get your opinions heard by the right people.