It's not that hard to get into Harvard after all...

[TwoLegacies]

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i don't think any of us who aren't URMs can understand what it is like to be a URM, and therefore don't really have the place to say that the playing field is level. all i can base my opinion on is what i see and hear. no, i haven't SEEN much discrimination right in front of my face. but i have several friends who are URMs, and they've told me stories about their encounters with racism... i don't think they'd lie to me.
so my point is that even if mr. or miss URM grows up in the suburbs and mom and dad are successful, chances are he/she has had some difficulties in life that have made success come less easily than your average non-URM. maybe it isn't fair to accept those URMs who are "unqualified" (although, correct me if i'm wrong here, you have to pass through medical school in order to practice medicine, and having passed your classes and qualifying exams i believe you'd be considered qualified). but life isn't fair. if your biggest problem is that you can't get into med school because the URMs being accepted are "taking your place", then you should be grateful you don't have any real problems.
and that's my opinion, hate it if you want, but i get very upset with people who whine about stuff like this.

 

[kinetic]

i don't think any of us who aren't URMs can understand what it is like to be a URM, and therefore don't really have the place to say that the playing field is level. all i can base my opinion on is what i see and hear. no, i haven't SEEN much discrimination right in front of my face. but i have several friends who are URMs, and they've told me stories about their encounters with racism... i don't think they'd lie to me.
so my point is that even if mr. or miss URM grows up in the suburbs and mom and dad are successful, chances are he/she has had some difficulties in life that have made success come less easily than your average non-URM. maybe it isn't fair to accept those URMs who are "unqualified" (although, correct me if i'm wrong here, you have to pass through medical school in order to practice medicine, and having passed your classes and qualifying exams i believe you'd be considered qualified). but life isn't fair. if your biggest problem is that you can't get into med school because the URMs being accepted are "taking your place", then you should be grateful you don't have any real problems.
and that's my opinion, hate it if you want, but i get very upset with people who whine about stuff like this.

Like I said, it's funny how this works. We're not allowed to assume anything about blacks ("we don't know what it's like being them") ...except for the fact that we KNOW they have "difficulties in life" -- even if they live in the suburbs and go to nice schools. Nice. Oh, yes, we can also "assume" that blacks need our help to succeed.

P.S. If their biggest problem is that they can't get into medical school, then they should be grateful they don't have any real problems, either.

 

[TwoLegacies]

Like I said, it's funny how this works. We're not allowed to assume anything about blacks ("we don't know what it's like being them") ...except for the fact that we KNOW they have "difficulties in life" -- even if they live in the suburbs and go to nice schools. Nice. Oh, yes, we can also "assume" that blacks need our help to succeed.

P.S. If their biggest problem is that they can't get into medical school, then they should be grateful they don't have any real problems, either.

it's true, though. nobody knows what it's like to be you except for you. maybe it's a cliched phrase, but think about it.
my point was that i'm not assuming-- i'm basing my opinion on personal accounts of my friends who are URMs... i've heard their difficulties in life.
as for assuming that black people need "our" help to succeed, i don't think i ever said that.
of course all URMs aren't going to be poor. it's up to the discretion of an admissions committee to decide if someone should be given special consideration due to their background. i'm not saying throw all reason to the wind and accept someone based solely on their skin color. i think a lot of people misunderstand AA in this way, and that's why it gets a bad rap.

 

[kinetic]

Well, not in so many words. But that's how I take AA. You're telling blacks and other URMs, "you can't do it without some help. We know you guys can't compete against non-URMs, so we'll give you the help you need." And, like I said, it's frustrating to hear that someone can come from an upper-middle class background, with two respected and college-educated parents, and go to nice suburban schools ...and still complain that they have faced a life of difficulty. That's my beef. A person who doesn't get what they desire can always scream "racism" -- there's no way to prove or disprove it.

 

[TwoLegacies]

it can be exploited, i guess. i don't have any personal experience with people i know who are URMs trying to use the fear of racism to their advantage, so i never really think about that spin. do you have any friends who are URMs? if you do i'd recommend asking them about racism they've encountered.... i was unaware of it for a long time. i obviously knew it existed, but until i got to be close to a black friend of mine and a mexican friend of mine, i didn't know the kind of stuff they had to deal with.

 

[kinetic]

I usually hang out with ORMs (over-represented minorities), lol. (I just made that up.) But when I went to college, our paper would talk a lot about racism and how people were still racists. One guy said, "I sit in class and I KNOW all the white people are looking at me and they don't want me here." Well, heck, if that's in your mind (right or wrong, justified or not), how will you ever be able to escape the (real or imagined) racism? Another person said, "I went to the store and the woman put my change down on the counter ...it was like she didn't want to touch me." I read that and said, "that's happened to me before ...but I didn't think it was racism -- I didn't really think it was anything."

I guess what I'm getting at is that, if you LOOK for racism in the world (i.e., if you expect it), you'll find it. Because people (even in the same race) treat each other differently. If you look for reasons to take affront at something, you'll usually be able to find it.

I don't think things are equal in America -- nor will they ever be. Not that there is institutional racism, just that everyone treats everyone else differently. But how did ORMs become over-represented? And why are URMs still under-represented? Did white guys the world over say (in a stereotypical white Southern accent), "you know what ...I think I like the Chi-neese ...ah ain't much for them blayaks, though"? Think about it.

 

[TwoLegacies]

well the people in that article were making the rest of the URMs look bad 😀
anyway, i'm tired of talking about this. i'm not going to change my mind about AA and you probably aren't going to change yours. but it's been fun, catch ya later.

 

[JohnnyOU]

I honestly don't think a single word from ANY of those MDapplicants posts is ever verified.

Maybe they felt sorry for the guy because he had a large mole on his face? 😀 LOL j/k

I did notice that they have DOs on the MDapplicants site, which I thought was funny, considering the name 🙂

J~

 

[supereagles]

i don't think any of us who aren't URMs can understand what it is like to be a URM, and therefore don't really have the place to say that the playing field is level. all i can base my opinion on is what i see and hear. no, i haven't SEEN much discrimination right in front of my face. but i have several friends who are URMs, and they've told me stories about their encounters with racism... i don't think they'd lie to me.
so my point is that even if mr. or miss URM grows up in the suburbs and mom and dad are successful, chances are he/she has had some difficulties in life that have made success come less easily than your average non-URM. maybe it isn't fair to accept those URMs who are "unqualified" (although, correct me if i'm wrong here, you have to pass through medical school in order to practice medicine, and having passed your classes and qualifying exams i believe you'd be considered qualified). but life isn't fair. if your biggest problem is that you can't get into med school because the URMs being accepted are "taking your place", then you should be grateful you don't have any real problems.
and that's my opinion, hate it if you want, but i get very upset with people who whine about stuff like this.

Well said 👍 . The fact is that most of you guys who whine about AA policies do not know what it is like to be a URM. Do you sometimes consider the psychological impact for your future classmates who are blacks or latinos and happen to be reading posts like this on SDN? For one, the inferiority complex of imagining that most of their peers deem them unqualified to be in Med school already puts them at a disadvantage. As a black male struggling to make it into Med school, I can not tell you guys how many times I found myself as the lone black face in an Upper division biochem class. Sure, I had a lot of great white and asian friends but men, s**t like this messes with your mind. it is definetely true that URMs have it easier in the admissions process in regards to the numbers alone but I can tell you that in life this would be a totally different story. And for those of you who would like to see Medicine return to the way it was a century ago, suck it up because this is NEVER going to happen.

In regards to the dude that got into Harvard...regardless of the validity of the post.. he must have been an exceptional applicant in many respects. I myself lived in Africa till I was a teenager and I can tell you that getting above a 7 on the VR section was one of the most difficult things I had ever done. Life experiences does make a huge difference. Harvad does not simply select all URMs with okay stats...take this from a black male with an above 30 MCAT and above 3.7GPA and was rejected by Harvad post-secondary.

 

[JohnnyOU]

Well said 👍 . The fact is that most of you guys who whine about AA policies do not know what it is like to be a URM. Do you sometimes consider the psychological impact for your future classmates who are blacks or latinos and happen to be reading posts like this on SDN? For one, the inferiority complex of imagining that most of their peers deem them unqualified to be in Med school already puts them at a disadvantage. As a black male struggling to make it into Med school, I can not tell you guys how many times I found myself as the lone black face in an Upper division biochem class. Sure, I had a lot of great white and asian friends but men, s**t like this messes with your mind. it is definetely true that URMs have it easier in the admissions process in regards to the numbers alone but I can tell you that in life this would be a totally different story. And for those of you who would like to see Medicine return to the way it was a century ago, suck it up because this is NEVER going to happen.
.

Sorry to hear about your lone face in the biochem class... but if you were the only black guy in that class it means you were the only black guy who signed up for it. No one is holding back anyone from enrolling in any class at any school in the USA.

Every one of us have to take the exact same prereqs, do the same studying, pass the same classes. White Black Oriental Hispanic etc...

AA policies are about the only govt. endorsed form of racism and discrimination left in America, and it will be done away with sooner or later.

And I DO know what it's like to be an URM. I lived many years on the Mexican/Texas border and the population was 99.9% hispanic 0.05% white 0.05% black.

ANYONE can become a doctor if they discipline themself and do the work. If anyone cannot get accepted at any med school based on their grades, mcat score, ec's, maturity, and level of commitment....then they shouldn't be a physician.

J~

 

[supereagles]

Sorry to hear about your lone face in the biochem class... but if you were the only black guy in that class it means you were the only black guy who signed up for it. No one is holding back anyone from enrolling in any class at any school in the USA.

Every one of us have to take the exact same prereqs, do the same studying, pass the same classes. White Black Oriental Hispanic etc...

AA policies are about the only govt. endorsed form of racism and discrimination left in America, and it will be done away with sooner or later.

And I DO know what it's like to be an URM. I lived many years on the Mexican/Texas border and the population was 99.9% hispanic 0.05% white 0.05% black.

ANYONE can become a doctor if they discipline themself and do the work. If anyone cannot get accepted at any med school based on their grades, mcat score, ec's, maturity, and level of commitment....then they shouldn't be a physician.

J~

hey Johnny, don't take it personal.. I was not refering to you on my post and you make very good points. I just disagree with people who believe that AA policies are keeping them out of med school. or that most URMs are unqualified to become doctors simply based on their MCAT score.

I would like to give more credit to the doctors who select applicants...i would think they are more qualified than most of us to judge who would make a good physician. This is afterall the reason why interviews are still carried out. 😎

 

[coffeeluver]

Every one of us have to take the exact same prereqs, do the same studying, pass the same classes. White Black Oriental Hispanic etc...


J~

"Oriental" is not an ethnicity.

 

[coffeeluver]

I think the issue of so many underqualified minorities getting into medical school needs to be made more public so people realize how unfair and racist this process really is.

If they can pass all the boards and meet all the requirements for a medical degree, then they are no longer "underqualified".

 

[coffeeluver]

Bottom line - would you want someone who doesn't "have the opportunity to hit the books" as your physician? No, you wouldn't, and neither would the American public.

How about the public that lives in projects across this country? Would you, as a physician, be willing to practice only in disadvantaged latino and black communities? I didn't think so.

 

[CalBeE]

As a black male struggling to make it into Med school, I can not tell you guys how many times I found myself as the lone black face in an Upper division biochem class. Sure, I had a lot of great white and asian friends but men, s**t like this messes with your mind. it is definetely true that URMs have it easier in the admissions process in regards to the numbers alone but I can tell you that in life this would be a totally different story. And for those of you who would like to see Medicine return to the way it was a century ago, suck it up because this is NEVER going to happen.

Yea, Supereagles and I were both at the UCLA Med Second Look...and I think there were 2 blacks and probably a few Hispanics only...the number is so small compared to Asians and White...and we're talking about a school in Los Angeles, not Wyoming or something. Even with preference for URM, I don't think the % of URM med students are very high...so the assumption that URM takes away spots from qualified non-URM is probably not as prevalent as many of us imagined to be.

 

[UCdannyLA]

Every one of us have to take the exact same prereqs, do the same studying, pass the same classes. White Black Oriental Hispanic etc...


J~

Oriental...? you ignorant fool.
(EAST) ASIAN, you freaking ignorant buffoon.

 

[Fermata]

Oriental...? you ignorant fool.
(EAST) ASIAN, you freaking ignorant buffoon.

Calm down. It's an older term for the same thing. It's just a word.

 

[UCdannyLA]

High undergraduate GPA and high MCAT score does not necessarily equate to success in medical school, just like how a high h.s GPA and high SAT score does not necessarily equate to success in college. This is becaues there are disparities in using those two numbers (GPA, SAT/MCAT) to esseentially be the sole judge of whether a student is admitted or not.

For example, my roommate is a mexican who comes from a poor neighborhood. He got a 1020 on his SATs (UCLA's average is around 1350) and his high school GPA was barely above a 3.0 (UCLA's incoming high school seniors come in with an average GPA of 4.3). He even says it himself that he was probably accepted because he was Mexican. And I am sure there was a Korean kid somewhere in California who had a 1570 SAT, with a 4.5 GPA who was pissed as hell that he didn't get into UCLA. Some ignorant people would say that the fact that my underqualified Mexican roommate got in to UCLA over the qualified Korean kid is an injustice. But then those ignorant people are just being...ignorant.


My underqualified Mexican roommate has a 3.96 GPA (he is a junior now) as a double major in Physics and Math. He has been published twice for his research work in nuclear physics, and he has a fully paid summer internship at an elite nuclear physics laboratory in Italy this upcoming summer. And he had a 1020 SAT, and 3.0 high school GPA.

Many URMs are not given the opportunity to chase their dreams, or they are hindered from achieving their goals, whether it be through racism, or what not.

 

[kinetic]

The fact is that most of you guys who whine about AA policies do not know what it is like to be a URM. Do you sometimes consider the psychological impact for your future classmates who are blacks or latinos and happen to be reading posts like this on SDN? For one, the inferiority complex of imagining that most of their peers deem them unqualified to be in Med school already puts them at a disadvantage.

So you REALLY don't understand why people would question whether you were unqualified (whether or not that is actually true) when AA exists? This is the point: AA is simply redirected discrimination in the veil of social engineering. The fact of the matter is that AA is a vicious cycle:

1) Proponents demand that AA continue until "parity" is achieved -- parity being nebulous and undefined (or, alternatively, artificial -- such as "we want exactly the same percentage of representation as we are in society", which makes no sense at all).
2) By lowering standards for URMs, there is no incentive for them to improve (as evidenced by the fact that one must scour so far and wide for someone with even mediocre scores).
3) By accepting mediocre candidates to institutions above their score merit, you generate resentment and anger -- which simply perpetuates friction between races.

If you don't like people wondering about your qualifications, then the first thing you could do is speak out against AA. However, seeing as that means that URMs must forfeit the advantage gained from this, I don't see this occurring any time soon.

Even with preference for URM, I don't think the % of URM med students are very high...

Saying that there are "only a few" people getting in through AA is quite disingenuous. If so few people are benefiting from it, then why not reverse the argument: rather than saying, "why do we care if it remains", why not ask, "why do you care if it goes". In addition, it is the principle, not the raw numbers. I'm sure if some qualified URM was chucked in favor of a white student -- even if this only happened ONCE -- people would be burning down cities and flipping cars in the streets.

High undergraduate GPA and high MCAT score does not necessarily equate to success in medical school, just like how a high h.s GPA and high SAT score does not necessarily equate to success in college.

While it is true that scores don't define someone, why should a URM get the chance to demonstrate they are more than just their scores when whites, Asians, and Indians don't get that opportunity? Who is to say that some low-scoring white person wouldn't do as well or better than that low-scoring URM? This is another way to rationalize inequity in admissions standards.

 

[Tone2002]

Calm down. It's an older term for the same thing. It's just a word.

In this day and age there is just no excuse or justification for it.

 

[trauma_junky]

Please. Whether you like it or not Harvard can accept whoever they want. Grades and MCAT scores alone are not what makes one more "deserving".

Frame it and send it to every adcom in the nation, for even though they preach this when they visit undergrad schools, they rarely practice it during application time.

 

[pbehzad]

If he spent 16 years in Africa, perhaps it's possible that his struggles with the MCAT were due to learning english as a second (or third or fourth) language? Those passages can kill someone with average english skills

English is the official language of Uganda, and I would venture to say he either lived in Kampala or Entebbe, both metropolitan areas where English is widely spoken. So I don't know if we can say english was his 2nd language, when everyone around you speaks it.

 

[seev99]

med skools should take more of those hot latino chicks from the rap videos...holla!

 

[bigbassinbob]

How about the public that lives in projects across this country? Would you, as a physician, be willing to practice only in disadvantaged latino and black communities? I didn't think so.

And you think that just because someone is black and they become a physician that means they would want to practice in the housing projects? What the hell is wrong with you? NOBODY wants to or does practice in housing projects. People who live in housing projects typically get treated in the emergency room, and yes I've seen it because I've worked in one for a year, not a private practice doctor's office. The vast majority of those in the projects don't have insurance, meaning that virtually no physician (black, white, mexican, or otherwise) would even treat them.

And as for those minorities who pass the boards not being "underqualified" anymore, that's because they were let into medical school as underqualified applicants and given the chance to pass the tests. Almost anyone, given the chance, could pass the USMLE if they had the opportunity to take two years of medical school beforehand. The point is that a minority took someone else's spot who was a stronger applicant and could have probably scored higher on the boards just because of their skin color. How is that fair?

 

[stwei]

All right guys.. let's do an experiment - let's intentionally ask some very intelligent kids to flunk several courses in college at various institutions -
national merit scholars who know what it takes to work hard and to achieve.
You tell them they'll be richly reimbursed for their efforts...psychological counselling, monetary reimbursements, free meals, etc. ok - after all they can always make up the classes later) and apply to the ivy leagues with a gpa of 2.0. The adcoms of course dunno about this. And let's say we select a multiethnic population sample. Who do you think will most likely be chosen to attend medical school based on his or her other activities, charm, charisma.. provided he/she does not disclose the deal made?

 

[exmike]

Calm down. It's an older term for the same thing. It's just a word.

there are also "older" terms for black/african-american. Are they just words?

 

[kinetic]

Dude, why are you going off on Fermata? It's clear that the term was not used in an offensive way. And I personally didn't even know 'Oriental' was an off-limits word. There are a lot nastier things one could call an "Asian" if one had the intent to be inflammatory. So now Fermata knows. Yet you continue to yell about it. With what intent? Is Fermata supposed to throw him/herself on the traintracks in reparation?

 

[skiz knot]

The problem is they often don't have the opportunity to hit the books. Inner city schools can't always provide the same AP and IB classes, or SAT prep courses or any of the other college preparation taken for granted at upper-middle class suburban schools. Thus they don't even get to see many of the advantages offered to premeds at the more elite colleges. And it just goes on from there. Even if an URM wants to take the initiative to try and better him/herself, it's often hampered by the fact that public library funding has been slashed repeatedly causing limited hours and reduced resources. What books should they hit then?

*yeah I'm generalizing and lumping all URMs together, but a few well-off URMs doesn't change an average all that much.

You don't need AP and IB classes and SAT prep courses to do well in college admissions. I think the majority of college students in the country don't have/ didn't utilize these things. AP and IB are unnecessary in admittance to most good colleges (possibly IVY league caliber schools excluded). I will, however, agree that the the atmosphere of certain schools is not conducive to creating the highest caliber students.

 

[pathdr2b]

there are also "older" terms for black/african-american. Are they just words?

Gee exmike, I'm very suprised you made this statement. For some reason I just assumed you had stronger discernment capabilities this. 🙁

 

[Gbemi24]

It is interesting how you guys were able to find the profile of a black guy who got into Harvard with a 23 MCAT score. How about this white guy?

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=438

Did he get AA too? 🙄 By the way Harvard has accepted students with MCAT scores as low 21 and GPAs as low as 3.0 before. You can call the admissions office and ask if you doubt me.

 

[kinetic]

It is interesting how you guys were able to find the profile of a black guy who got into Harvard with a 23 MCAT score. How about this white guy?

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=438

Did he get AA too? 🙄 By the way Harvard has accepted students with MCAT scores as low 21 and GPAs as low as 3.0 before. You can call the admissions office and ask if you doubt me.

The white guy is equally undeserving, but that doesn't validate the black guy. They both should be out on the street. Listen, if admissions committees want to stop people from casting stones at these people, they should explain just what was in their minds. Harvard may have accepted some people with low scores, but that raises two questions:

1) Are the vast majority of those admissions people from URMs or white/over-represented minorities? I think you know the answer.

2) WHY are these people getting admitted? Take Harvard as an example. Harvard says "talk to the hand" to a LOT of people with great scores and even more with mediocre scores. Yet they take some people who -- according to you -- have relatively pathetic scores. Like I said earlier, if you're going to rationalize things with the nebulous and impossible-to-refute "other qualifications" line, then expect people to raise their eyebrows in derision.

P.S. If AA didn't exist, then why did UMich admit that it gave points to URMs come admission time in the recent 2003 Supreme Court case?

 

[thewzdoc]

It is interesting how you guys were able to find the profile of a black guy who got into Harvard with a 23 MCAT score. How about this white guy?

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=438

Did he get AA too? 🙄 By the way Harvard has accepted students with MCAT scores as low 21 and GPAs as low as 3.0 before. You can call the admissions office and ask if you doubt me.

👍 ...isn't it obvious.....he went to BYU...he's got to be in one of those wacko religious cults that have taken over.... 😱

 

[bigbassinbob]

It is interesting how you guys were able to find the profile of a black guy who got into Harvard with a 23 MCAT score. How about this white guy?

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=438

Did he get AA too? 🙄 By the way Harvard has accepted students with MCAT scores as low 21 and GPAs as low as 3.0 before. You can call the admissions office and ask if you doubt me.

This guy also had a 3.84 GPA from BYU, not a 3.3. Not to mention he doesn't list his EC's, which were most likely stellar, as opposed to the other guy who was a "soil expert."

 

[kinetic]

This guy also had a 3.84 GPA from BYU, not a 3.3. Not to mention he doesn't list his EC's, which were most likely stellar, as opposed to the other guy who was a "soil expert."

Oh, I should have actually looked at the GPA, rather than taking his word for it. 🙄

 

[ms2209]

After reading the posts here, I decided to pose a question to the individuals vehemently against forms of AA: How do you feel about other forms of prejudice like legacy, favoring individuals from certain areas of the country, favoring individuals who play certain sports? Personallly speaking, I don't think that AA is the solution to "leveling the playing field", but I also object to other forms of discrimination, such as the kind that allowed Dubya to get an education at some of the most elite institutions in the country. In my opinion, if you want to abolish AA, then you should make admissions selections based on a COMPLETE meritocracy, INCLUDING the removal of legacy and all of the other even more ridiculous forms of secret selection that colleges/grad schools use to accept unqualified applicants (and this is not to say that ALL individuals from such backgrounds are unqualified). Just my two cents...

 

[thewzdoc]

Oriental...? you ignorant fool.
(EAST) ASIAN, you freaking ignorant buffoon.

....breath deep dude.....what is wrong with you? I just asked 10 of my "Asian" friends if they would be offended by being referred to as "Oriental" and many of them laughed...some ask "why would I?". A Pilipino friend said she preferred "Pacific Islander" and then followed that with..."what ever".

 

[thewzdoc]

This guy also had a 3.84 GPA from BYU, not a 3.3. Not to mention he doesn't list his EC's, which were most likely stellar, as opposed to the other guy who was a "soil expert."

Yes but look at that MCAT score.....and he got into Harvard with that!?

 

[UseUrHeadFred]

Justy FYI, state of residence is also a factor. Many schools are driven to have as diverse a group as possible. Thus, a caucasian from Idaho or Alaska has a slight advantage, since their geographic location is underrepresented.

 

[kinetic]

After reading the posts here, I decided to pose a question to the individuals vehemently against forms of AA: How do you feel about other forms of prejudice like legacy, favoring individuals from certain areas of the country, favoring individuals who play certain sports? Personallly speaking, I don't think that AA is the solution to "leveling the playing field", but I also object to other forms of discrimination, such as the kind that allowed Dubya to get an education at some of the most elite institutions in the country. In my opinion, if you want to abolish AA, then you should make admissions selections based on a COMPLETE meritocracy, INCLUDING the removal of legacy and all of the other even more ridiculous forms of secret selection that colleges/grad schools use to accept unqualified applicants (and this is not to say that ALL individuals from such backgrounds are unqualified). Just my two cents...

I don't think anyone is for legacy admissions, nor do people pretend that they are "fair" (as many do with AA). I wouldn't mind them abolishing legacy admissions. (P.S., lots of Democrats have gotten legacy admissions, too, so I don't know why you only write about GWB.)

Athletic scholarships are a whole different thing. They are a "tit for tat" trade. Schools gain revenue and interest from applicants; athletes get to go to places they aren't qualified for. I don't have a big problem with athletic scholarships (and most of those guys/gals are majoring in joke majors like Kineseology, anyway).

 

[bigbassinbob]

Yes but look at that MCAT score.....and he got into Harvard with that!?

True, that is a little strange, but it looks like he did have 3 degrees and doesn't list EC's. Look at the first post - 3.3 GPA, 23 MCAT, African. This is why I brought up AA.

 

[bigbassinbob]

After reading the posts here, I decided to pose a question to the individuals vehemently against forms of AA: How do you feel about other forms of prejudice like legacy, favoring individuals from certain areas of the country, favoring individuals who play certain sports? Personallly speaking, I don't think that AA is the solution to "leveling the playing field", but I also object to other forms of discrimination, such as the kind that allowed Dubya to get an education at some of the most elite institutions in the country. In my opinion, if you want to abolish AA, then you should make admissions selections based on a COMPLETE meritocracy, INCLUDING the removal of legacy and all of the other even more ridiculous forms of secret selection that colleges/grad schools use to accept unqualified applicants (and this is not to say that ALL individuals from such backgrounds are unqualified). Just my two cents...

Legacies are as ridiculous as AA, I don't think anyone would disagree with that. Favoring people from a certain area of the country is somewhat understandable: in-state residents should get preference to their state schools (this is one of the many reasons we pay state taxes). I've never heard of favoring people who play a certain sport.

By the way, give G dub a break. You don't know how he did in high school or anything of that nature.

 

[thewzdoc]

True, that is a little strange, but it looks like he did have 3 degrees and doesn't list EC's. Look at the first post - 3.3 GPA, 23 MCAT, African. This is why I brought up AA.

He too didn?t list any EC?s but it does look suspicious?both of them do. I think too many people go to that site and find someone with their stats only to be disappointed that they didn?t have the same outcome. Every person is an individual this is why the schools interview you?.it would be much easier for them to just look at your stats and pick only the top??

P.S.....African doesn't mean black....I've an African friend and he is as white as GW Bush.....

 

[thewzdoc]

By the way, give G dub a break. You don't know how he did in high school or anything of that nature.

Let me prefice this with "I voted for him" but he was a mediocre student at Yale....but he got into Harvard?s Masters program......If you have a powerful/rich family then the normal rules don?t apply to you?and they never will.

 

[kinetic]

P.S.....African doesn't mean black....I've an African friend and he is as white as GW Bush.....

True. But a lot of people get angry when white people call themselves "African". I think Charlize Theron is South African and called herself an African once and caught a lot of flack for it (unfairly).

 

[thewzdoc]

True. But a lot of people get angry when white people call themselves "African". I think Charlize Theron is South African and called herself an African once and caught a lot of flack for it (unfairly).

And this is just another form of racism. Stupidity knows no bounds when it comes to this..... 👎

 

[Doc Martins]

The white guy is equally undeserving, but that doesn't validate the black guy. They both should be out on the street.

Who are we to judge who is and who is not "deserving"? Whether these profiles are real or not, we have to understand that numbers are not all that make an applicant who they are. I've visited Harvard on a group trip and they stressed that grades and scores are not their main focus. There are a lot of other factors to consider when accepting an applicant, and don't want people to be intimidated because of their name.

Don't take this out of context and think that I'm saying that one can get in easily with average grades, but when there is so much more to a person than numbers, it is important to look at the whole picture. It's simply wrong to say people should be "out on the street" because they get into a great school with mediocre grades; there was obviously a reason for it.

 

[kinetic]

Don't take this out of context and think that I'm saying that one can get in easily with average grades, but when there is so much more to a person than numbers, it is important to look at the whole picture. It's simply wrong to say people should be "out on the street" because they get into a great school with mediocre grades; there was obviously a reason for it.

Agreed. But why do some people get the chance to demonstrate they are "more than just numbers" and other people get the door slammed on their face? Like I said, keeping admissions qualifications nebulous (by justifying an admission because "this person was well-rounded") just opens the door for people to question things. But admissions committees like to keep it that way, so they can admit who they want and deny who they want -- basically on a whim.

 

[thewzdoc]

Agreed. But why do some people get the chance to demonstrate they are "more than just numbers" and other people get the door slammed on their face? Like I said, keeping admissions qualifications nebulous (by justifying an admission because "this person was well-rounded") just opens the door for people to question things. But admissions committees like to keep it that way, so they can admit who they want and deny who they want -- basically on a whim.

Well?.it?s the game we have to play to get into Med School?..right?

 

[kinetic]

Well, you can't have it both ways. Schools aren't allowed to fail kids who don't meet standards (hence the stories about high-school graduates who are illiterate or who can't read an analog watch), or else that's racism and "not walking a mile in their shoes", too. The solution is not to pat them on the back for sucking and give them a full-ride to college; it's to hold them back until they can perform up to par, even if they're 28 years old. You're doing a disservice to minorities by artificially promoting or enhancing them - you send them the message that they can stink and still get ahead in life. Then, when they run into reality, they cry "foul" and "racism" because that's how you trained them to think.

 

[liverotcod]

Good post, Chalkette.