It's not that hard to get into Harvard after all...

[kinetic]

P.S. I said it before and I'll say it again. Asians came to this country and were poor and living in ghettos, too. But they (as a group) have excelled and quickly become "over-represented". Why? What is the difference between URMs and other minorities? It's simple.

1) The family is intact. They have a cohesive and stable unit -- even when they're poor and live in shacks.
2) They don't "expect" and "demand" better treatment due to their minority status. They work hard for what they get and overcome obstacles that are put in their way (like socio-economic status).
3) They are not backwards. In ghetto schools, if you perform well, you get beaten up. It's cool to be a "thug" and uneducated. Hey, if you take that tack, what do you expect?

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[Gbemi24]

The white guy is equally undeserving, but that doesn't validate the black guy. They both should be out on the street. Listen, if admissions committees want to stop people from casting stones at these people, they should explain just what was in their minds. Harvard may have accepted some people with low scores, but that raises two questions:?

Look, anyone who has been on SDN long enough knows that I am vehemently against AA and I have debated others ad nauseum over it. However, to pick on that particular black guy is silly. You do not know his particular circumstances. Harvard has in the past rejected blacks with better GPA and MCAT than the white guy from BYU with the MCAT score of 25. I know 3 blacks with 3.8+/30+ that were rejected post-secondary by Harvard this cycle. They were accepted at other elite schools, but they were rejected at Harvard nonetheless. Am I to assume that the white guy from BYU got in undeservedly because 3 black guys with better numbers got rejected?

Elite schools sometimes accept students with low numbers without regard to race. They accept these students in spite of their low numbers because they see something unique in them. This does not mean elite do not practice AA. They do, but you cannot assume every minority with low numbers got in because of their race. Harvard DOES NOT have to accept blacks with 3.3/23 because they can get blacks with 3.5+/30+.

This is a profile of a black guy with better numbers than the white guy from BYU but got rejected by Harvard.

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=1508

 

[gschl1234]

I can't believe this thread almost turned into an AA thread. Anyway, here is why I don't think it could be true. Maybe "he" is an amazing person with great life experiences, but he has a 3.3 GPA and a 23 MCAT. Unless he hand delivered his application to someone he knew in admissions at Harvard, how did he even get considered for a secondary? This application would have gotten thrown out as soon as they saw "23". I don't care what his life story is, I don't believe he is going to Harvard with a 23 MCAT.

Harvard does not screen. Everyone who indicates them on their AMCAS gets a secondary.

 

[liverotcod]

Kinetic:
1) True, and I think that makes a big difference.
2) Neither do African Americans, in general, expect better treatment. Just fair treatment.
3) An over-generalization. Bullying the smart kids goes on in many schools of all ethnicity.

But the ancestors of almost all African Americans were brought to this country on slave ships, under the only legal system in the history of the world to define a person's skin color as marking them forever as property.

Others have come to this country to flee famine, religious repression, dictators, etc., etc. America is an incredible place to come to (in your words) work hard and overcome obstacles. Unless you're in shackles.

I don't want to get into a reparations debate... but it seems overwhelmingly likely that it's the historical context of slavery that drives many of the reasons that America's black population continues to struggle for equity.

 

[Gbemi24]

P.S. I said it before and I'll say it again. Asians came to this country and were poor and living in ghettos, too. But they (as a group) have excelled and quickly become "over-represented". Why? What is the difference between URMs and other minorities? It's simple.

1) The family is intact. They have a cohesive and stable unit -- even when they're poor and live in shacks.
2) They don't "expect" and "demand" better treatment due to their minority status. They work hard for what they get and overcome obstacles that are put in their way (like socio-economic status).
3) They are not backwards. In ghetto schools, if you perform well, you get beaten up. It's cool to be a "thug" and uneducated. Hey, if you take that tack, what do you expect?

Your argument is simplistic. Asian immigrants are more skilled, brighter and more motivated than their countrymen. This is true of other immigrants from the third world. Asians do not outperform indigenous Americans only because of their culture. If Asian culture was always superior, why is South East Asia so poor and backward?

 

[Ada2004]

Kinetic, why do you think MCAT scores are so important. Will you rather have a doctor who scored a 33 and had 3.8 G.P.A but is an awful physician or some who has lower credentials but is a awesome practicing physician.

 

[liverotcod]

Your argument is simplistic. Asian immigrants are more skilled, brighter and more motivated than their countrymen. This is true of other immigrants from the third world. Asians do not outperform indigenous only because of their culture. If Asian culture was always superior, why is South East Asia so poor and backward?

An interesting point that I hadn't thought of. Thanks.

 

[thewzdoc]

LET'S BE REAL

Yes it's true that URM's are not all poor and grow up in the ghetto. Just because you have food to eat and clothes on your back doesn't mean that your school system has a rigorous enough program to prepare you to be able to compete against so many others that have been in better quality schools.

You don't get to choose what kindergarden you go to. Your economic status will determine what community you live in and you will go to the school that supports your community.
It's unfair that as a 6yr old I am not being taught as well as as another 6 yr old who lives in a community that is supported by a better school system.
By the time I go to 1st grade I am already at a disadvantage. I can only count to 30 but you can count to 60. Is it my fault? It's a snow ball effect. By the time I get to 9th grade I am ready to take pre-algebra but you have already been prepared for this class and were blessed to take it in the 8th grade so now you're in algebra I. By the time SAT's role around isn't there a LARGE possibility that you will know more than me and perform better? Anyone who disagrees that this is not happening is NAIVE So now you get accepted to a better college. I go to a (state school) whatever that means and you are at yale, duke, penn etc. Here we go again. The level of education is definitely not level when you compare one of those schools to XX state university. So now we take the MCAT and you still know more than I do because your school programs were harder than mine. ( NOT ONLY DID YOU LEARN YOUR ABC''S IN ORDER BUT THEY TAUGHT YOU HOW TO SAY THEM BACKWARDS TO ENSURE COMPREHENSION NOT MEMORIZATION )

Now many of you may argue that you have to be able to contain the knowledge and that just because you went to a better school means nothing. THE POINT IS THAT THE OPPORTUNITY WAS PROVIDED AND THEN THE END RESULT IS DETERMINED BY YOU. I on the other hand was never given the opportunity to obtain the level of knowledge you did.

THIS IS THE CASE FOR MOST MINORITIES. THerefore AA is a good thing. THe disparities in education have to end somewhere. It pisses me off that we don't perform as well as others but there is a reason. Therefore
I take no offense to people who say they would be ashamed to be given a boost and use AA as a crutch. I personally have never felt the need to use it because I was a smart child and I enjoyed studying and strived hard to understand. I am very intelligent but often I would have a hard time understanding simple concepts such as conversions in physics and chemistry, percentages, moving decimals, properly interpreting a ruler and measurements. (This is in highschool and college) To others it came so natural and they made me feel as though I was dumb. In reality I had never been taught these things properly or on the same level as my peers.
Not all minorities catch on as quickly as I do. I think there is a need for AA not based on color but conditions and many would agree that THE MAJORITY OF THOSE FACING THESE CONDITIONS ARE OF COLOR. This is why I hold my head up high, when many of you frown upon us based on so called underqualifications which have arisen from years of institutional racism against minorities(This is me being real and no longer sugar coating it) , as I step into the halls of professionalism and dare someone to say I don't deserve to be here. Whether it's intentional or not it's reality and many need to remove the blind folds from their eyes.

This is an excuse not a reason. My parents worked with me to teach me the things that were lacking in the schools. When I wanted to know something that my parents didn?t know they took me to the library and we all learned. It is not the responsibility of the school to teach you it is yours/and your families responsibility to learn. Too many schools have huge amounts of money thrown at them and they churn out mediocre students?why!? The family doesn?t take responsibility for the child?s education. Until we can get past this victim status BS we will never progress.

 

[Gbemi24]

This guy also had a 3.84 GPA from BYU, not a 3.3. Not to mention he doesn't list his EC's, which were most likely stellar, as opposed to the other guy who was a "soil expert."

He had a 3.8 so what? Harvard rejects many people with 3.8+/35+ all time. Why don't you check out the profiles of those who were rejected by Harvard?

 

[pathdr2b]

P.S. I said it before and I'll say it again. Asians came to this country and were poor and living in ghettos, too. But they (as a group) have excelled and quickly become "over-represented". Why? What is the difference between URMs and other minorities? It's simple.

1) The family is intact. They have a cohesive and stable unit -- even when they're poor and live in shacks.
2) They don't "expect" and "demand" better treatment due to their minority status. They work hard for what they get and overcome obstacles that are put in their way (like socio-economic status).
3) They are not backwards. In ghetto schools, if you perform well, you get beaten up. It's cool to be a "thug" and uneducated. Hey, if you take that tack, what do you expect?

You forgot to add that Asians ( ie Chinese, Japanese) often assimilate and/or are accepted into caucasion culture to a MUCH greater extent than other racial groups. Therefore, the discrimniantion that other minorities experience rarely applies to Asians.

 

[thewzdoc]

Kinetic, why do you think MCAT scores are so important. Will you rather have a doctor who scored a 33 and had 3.8 G.P.A but is an awful physician or some who has lower credentials but is a awesome practicing physician.

It?s not everything to being a doctor?it?s simply a tool for the schools to determine who is academically fit enough to complete a Medical Education. Just as the SAT and other standardized testes were used by our undergraduate schools.

 

[kinetic]

Your argument is simplistic. Asian immigrants are more skilled, brighter and more motivated than their countrymen. This is true of other immigrants from the third world. Asians do not outperform indigenous only because of their culture. If Asian culture was always superior, why is South East Asia so poor and backward?

Woah, woah, woah! Nobody said "Asians are intrinsically a superior race to blacks"! But they both got the short end of the stick here in America and one set has become "over-represented" and the other remains "under-represented". That's all. And I wonder why? Don't pretend that Asian immigrants came here and just pitched tent in the suburbs with tons of moolah. They were also poor and in sucky socio-economic straits. If we want to turn this into a "one race is better than the other" thread, fine. But what I meant by it was "what BEHAVIOR has led to the achievement in one and not the other?" I don't think that's unfair to analyze.

P.S. SE Asia sucks because it's largely undeveloped and non-capitalist. That's another thread. But look at Singapore and Hong Kong and Japan.

 

[gschl1234]

I don't understand this post. AP classes and SAT prep courses are all techniques to get people into college, but medical school admissions are not based on these. They're based on what you accomplish afterwards.

I would agree that more needs to be done in order to increase URM numbers in college, but I think (or at least, would like to think) that once you're in college, it's a re-leveled playing field.

The point is that AP and IB give you a "leg-up" in college and many underprivileged students (no matter their ethnicity) start college YEARS behind their peers. I saw it while I was in college in inner city African-American kids AND in rural Caucasian kids. It's not fair so I think there should be AA. The problem is that AA only looks at ethnicity and not at what really matters, socioeconomic status.

 

[thewzdoc]

You forgot to add that Asians ( ie Chinese, Japanese) often assimilate and/or are accepted into caucasion culture to a MUCH greater extent than other racial groups. Therefore, the discrimniantion that other minorities experience rarely applies to Asians.

This is a cold fact but true all the same.

A ?black? friend of mine had to pull her son out if school (11-years-old) due to harassment physical and racial. The school did little to intervene (this is in an upper middle class divers neighborhood). My friend saw the other child?s mother and stopped to talk with her about what was happening. The other mother began the ?discussion? with epithets and racial slurs?.my friend said she just walked away.

I was literally sick when she told me?..where are these types of people coming from?.this is Southern California in 2004 for gawds sake not Alabama in the 60?s?..

P.S. She home schools him now and he is progressing wonderfully. Our daughters play little league together. Her son watches my youngest so I can help coach. Her son is wonderful and smart?..I wish he didn?t have to be exposed to such ignorance.

 

[kinetic]

This thread just illustrates the divide between people in this country.

One group of people looks at things and says "man, things are unfair for me ...someone should help me out to make up for it". The other group says "man, things are unfair for me ...I better work harder to make up for it".

 

[kinetic]

You forgot to add that Asians ( ie Chinese, Japanese) often assimilate and/or are accepted into caucasion culture to a MUCH greater extent than other racial groups. Therefore, the discrimniantion that other minorities experience rarely applies to Asians.

Yes, but again: why? What is different about Asians than blacks? Surely you don't think that (sarcasm coming) the racist white man arbitrarily said, "ya know, them Ay-shuns shore are good folk ...not lahk them thar blay-ahks. I normally hate all other races, but ah guess yella is better than blay-ahk."

 

[pathdr2b]

Yes, but again: why? What is different about Asians than blacks? Surely you don't think that (sarcasm coming) the racist white man arbitrarily said, "ya know, them Ay-shuns shore are good folk ...not lahk them thar blay-ahks. I normally hate all other races, but ah guess yella is better than blay-ahk."

That's EXACTLY what I think (sarcasm coming) you, opps...., I mean the racist white man said!

And why the Southern accent?

 

[thewzdoc]

Yes, but again: why? What is different about Asians than blacks? Surely you don't think that (sarcasm coming) the racist white man arbitrarily said, "ya know, them Ay-shuns shore are good folk ...not lahk them thar blay-ahks. I normally hate all other races, but ah guess yella is better than blay-ahk."

No?.what you will hear is ?Them Asians (note that they don?t use this word) keep to them damn selves and stay quite, they don?t complain and demand nothing??..?

 

[thewzdoc]

That's EXACTLY what I think (sarcasm coming) you, opps...., I mean the racist white man said!

And why the Southern accent?

The assumption by many is that all racists are the stereotypical "red neck" yokel...not the well dressed well-spoken salt and pepper white male.

 

[gschl1234]

Speaking as an Asian, I have a hypothesis about the difference between ORMs and URMs. Maybe one of the big differences between Asians and Blacks is that although Asians have had many hardships, they did not start off in this country as slaves. Yes, they were poorly paid while working dangerous jobs (railroads) but they were paid. This meant that from one generation to the next, meager as the inheritances were, there was something material they could pass on to their children. The majority of African-Americans, on the other hand, had to start off from nothing. For generations they were born into slavery and had no possessions to leave to the next generation. That's got to make some kind of difference. Think about it. When your parents die (hopefully that will not be for some time) how much will they leave you? Even if you're well-off, do you think it'll make a difference in your finances? Probably yes. In 50-60 years, how much will you leave your children? If one generation couldn't leave anything for the next, it's like every generation has to start from scratch. That's a very diffiult thing to do and it makes it much more difficult to improve from one generation to the next. Obviously this isn't the only difference, but it's one that is easy to illustrate and understand.

 

[EvoDevo]

LET'S BE REAL

Yes it's true that URM's are not all poor and grow up in the ghetto. Just because you have food to eat and clothes on your back doesn't mean that your school system has a rigorous enough program to prepare you to be able to compete against so many others that have been in better quality schools.

You don't get to choose what kindergarden you go to. Your economic status will determine what community you live in and you will go to the school that supports your community.
It's unfair that as a 6yr old I am not being taught as well as as another 6 yr old who lives in a community that is supported by a better school system.
By the time I go to 1st grade I am already at a disadvantage. I can only count to 30 but you can count to 60. Is it my fault? It's a snow ball effect. By the time I get to 9th grade I am ready to take pre-algebra but you have already been prepared for this class and were blessed to take it in the 8th grade so now you're in algebra I. By the time SAT's role around isn't there a LARGE possibility that you will know more than me and perform better? Anyone who disagrees that this is not happening is NAIVE So now you get accepted to a better college. I go to a (state school) whatever that means and you are at yale, duke, penn etc. Here we go again. The level of education is definitely not level when you compare one of those schools to XX state university. So now we take the MCAT and you still know more than I do because your school programs were harder than mine. ( NOT ONLY DID YOU LEARN YOUR ABC''S IN ORDER BUT THEY TAUGHT YOU HOW TO SAY THEM BACKWARDS TO ENSURE COMPREHENSION NOT MEMORIZATION )

Now many of you may argue that you have to be able to contain the knowledge and that just because you went to a better school means nothing. THE POINT IS THAT THE OPPORTUNITY WAS PROVIDED AND THEN THE END RESULT IS DETERMINED BY YOU. I on the other hand was never given the opportunity to obtain the level of knowledge you did.

THIS IS THE CASE FOR MOST MINORITIES. THerefore AA is a good thing. THe disparities in education have to end somewhere. It pisses me off that we don't perform as well as others but there is a reason. Therefore
I take no offense to people who say they would be ashamed to be given a boost and use AA as a crutch. I personally have never felt the need to use it because I was a smart child and I enjoyed studying and strived hard to understand. I am very intelligent but often I would have a hard time understanding simple concepts such as conversions in physics and chemistry, percentages, moving decimals, properly interpreting a ruler and measurements. (This is in highschool and college) To others it came so natural and they made me feel as though I was dumb. In reality I had never been taught these things properly or on the same level as my peers.
Not all minorities catch on as quickly as I do. I think there is a need for AA not based on color but conditions and many would agree that THE MAJORITY OF THOSE FACING THESE CONDITIONS ARE OF COLOR. This is why I hold my head up high, when many of you frown upon us based on so called underqualifications which have arisen from years of institutional racism against minorities(This is me being real and no longer sugar coating it) , as I step into the halls of professionalism and dare someone to say I don't deserve to be here. Whether it's intentional or not it's reality and many need to remove the blind folds from their eyes.

This is also quite true of your poor white kids.
.
.
.
.
[/experience]

 

[kinetic]

That's EXACTLY what I think (sarcasm coming) you, opps...., I mean the racist white man said!

And why the Southern accent?

Because, the argument was forwarded that the reason Asians do better than blacks is because the former have assimilated into white society. OK, so: WHY? Why is it that blacks haven't assimilated? Because whites (who are assumed to be racists as a group) are keeping blacks out? If so, then why did they let Asians in? Because Asians are so docile? Even if Asians are taking tons of white spots in colleges and educational institutions? You don't hear most people complaining about the "underqualified Asian who took my spot". That's my whole point. People don't care WHO gets a spot over them -- as long as it makes sense. If a black guy with a 4.0 and 38 MCAT beat out someone, there wouldn't be some huge uprising. But if you insist on keeping AA in place as an excuse for poor performance, then you get the complaints.

It's not enough to make observations, like "Asians are more accepted than blacks". Next ask: WHY?

 

[kinetic]

Speaking as an Asian, I have a hypothesis about the difference between ORMs and URMs. Maybe one of the big differences between Asians and Blacks is that although Asians have had many hardships, they did not start off in this country as slaves. Yes, they were poorly paid while working dangerous jobs (railroads) but they were paid. This meant that from one generation to the next, meager as the inheritances were, there was something material they could pass on to their children. The majority of African-Americans, on the other hand, had to start off from nothing. For generations they were born into slavery and had no possessions to leave to the next generation. That's got to make some kind of difference. Think about it. When your parents die (hopefully that will not be for some time) how much will they leave you? Even if you're well-off, do you think it'll make a difference in your finances? Probably yes. In 50-60 years, how much will you leave your children? If one generation couldn't leave anything for the next, it's like every generation has to start from scratch. That's a very diffiult thing to do and it makes it much more difficult to improve from one generation to the next. Obviously this isn't the only difference, but it's one that is easy to illustrate and understand.

Well, Asians were pretty beaten down, too, in the beginning. I'm sure we've all seen the stereotypical picture of an Asian with buck teeth, slanted eyes, and a pigtail. They worked in crappy conditions and were poor as dirt, too. But now they are "over-represented". Again: how did we get from there to here?

Are we just going to use slavery in the past as an excuse in perpetude? In 2050, are we still going to say, "well, blacks still need AA because of slavery"? If so, that seems to make little sense (and, in truth, using that as an excuse nowadays seems silly). Black children today, though poor, don't have the burden of slavery on them. If they continue to use that as a crutch (and don't misrepresent my words and say "kinetic thinks slavery was a walk in the park" -- you know what I mean), then they will never advance as a people.

I think it's more racist to ASSUME that blacks can't get by on their own; that they need the help of others to succeed. I think that's an insult to them as a race.

 

[cher25]

Yes, but again: why? What is different about Asians than blacks? Surely you don't think that (sarcasm coming) the racist white man arbitrarily said, "ya know, them Ay-shuns shore are good folk ...not lahk them thar blay-ahks. I normally hate all other races, but ah guess yella is better than blay-ahk."

The difference is that most Asians come from supportive families that push them to excel. A large number of URMs don't have that. Some have parents that aren't educated and poor. Therefore, they grow up in poor educational systems. School systems that focus more on discipline than education. They come home to parents that may not be able to 'teach what they lacked in school' as the other poster stated. They may not have means to go to a library and self study. They may not have the motivation nor the encouragement. The simple fact is, I'm sure if URMs such as myself, could go back, I'd push my parents to let me go to a better school, I'd push for a more challenging curriculum. I'd push to be just as competitive as others solely based on merit. I long for that. But unfortunately, growing up, I (as most URMs do) went with the flow. I didn't know better. I did what I was supposed to do. Went to school, studied, and came home. I went to a crap high school. I could have gone from junior high to college. All I learned in high school was how to tuck in my shirt, not be late, and avoid getting hit during a riot or a fight. And then, with no prep from school, I'm supposed to take a standardized exam? When I got to college, I had to figure it out myself. I didn't even know how to study. I made it through high school with straight As and Bs without ever having to study. We got worksheets and open book exams. I didn't ask for it. That's the way it was. So I struggled through college. It wasn't until the end of my second year until I had it figured out as far as study methods and what I needed to do to effectively learn and do well. I agree with the other poster that said it should be based more on socioeconomic status. I agree with some of the things that people on both sides have had to say. It is unfair for a qualified ORM to be bumped aside for someone with lower stats. But at the same time, I tried my best in school and I'm going to apply. I did everything I could. I have phenomenal ECs and phenomenal work experience. And if an Adcomm want to look at me as a whole applicant, and decides to let me in. Then I'll go with my head up high and greatful to God that I made it through. If I got in with my lower grades, would it be fair? Maybe, maybe not. But if they let me in, then I'm going. If they don't, then I tried to overcome it all and have. I'll continue to move forward in life regardless. And one more point, URMs aren't the only ones that get in with lower stats. I know plenty of people who were not URMs who had lower stats and got in.

 

[kinetic]

cher25: good post, even if I didn't necessarily agree with all of it. But now let's explore this a little further.

I agree, harder curriculums would push URMs and low socioeconomic groups (let's call them LSGs for short) to succeed. But in doing so, MANY of today's URM/LSGs would fail school for a while. And that would also be deemed racist (which is why a lot of schools just brainlessly promote inner-city kids -- if they made them stay until they met the requirements, they'd be 25). So, like I said, we have a culture where people -- who have good intentions -- are basically doing a disservice to the people who they want to help. If we coddle URM/LSGs, then we do not change the circumstances that fostered their poor performance in the first place; we just accept it. That's my point.

 

[thewzdoc]

The difference is that most Asians come from supportive families that push them to excel. A large number of URMs don't have that. Some have parents that aren't educated and poor. Therefore, they grow up in poor educational systems. School systems that focus more on discipline than education. They come home to parents that may not be able to 'teach what they lacked in school' as the other poster stated. They may not have means to go to a library and self study. They may not have the motivation nor the encouragement. The simple fact is, I'm sure if URMs such as myself, could go back, I'd push my parents to let me go to a better school, I'd push for a more challenging curriculum. I'd push to be just as competitive as others solely based on merit. I long for that. But unfortunately, growing up, I (as most URMs do) went with the flow. I didn't know better. I did what I was supposed to do. Went to school, studied, and came home. I went to a crap high school. I could have gone from junior high to college. All I learned in high school was how to tuck in my shirt, not be late, and avoid getting hit during a riot or a fight. And then, with no prep from school, I'm supposed to take a standardized exam? When I got to college, I had to figure it out myself. I didn't even know how to study. I made it through high school with straight As and Bs without ever having to study. We got worksheets and open book exams. I didn't ask for it. That's the way it was. So I struggled through college. It wasn't until the end of my second year until I had it figured out as far as study methods and what I needed to do to effectively learn and do well. I agree with the other poster that said it should be based more on socioeconomic status. I agree with some of the things that people on both sides have had to say. It is unfair for a qualified ORM to be bumped aside for someone with lower stats. But at the same time, I tried my best in school and I'm going to apply. I did everything I could. I have phenomenal ECs and phenomenal work experience. And if an Adcomm want to look at me as a whole applicant, and decides to let me in. Then I'll go with my head up high and greatful to God that I made it through. If I got in with my lower grades, would it be fair? Maybe, maybe not. But if they let me in, then I'm going. If they don't, then I tried to overcome it all and have. I'll continue to move forward in life regardless. And one more point, URMs aren't the only ones that get in with lower stats. I know plenty of people who were not URMs who had lower stats and got in.

great post...congratulation for succeeding and I hope your success continues.

 

[cher25]

great post...congratulation for succeeding and I hope your success continues.

Thanks thewzdoc

 

[cher25]

cher25: good post, even if I didn't necessarily agree with all of it. But now let's explore this a little further.

I agree, harder curriculums would push URMs and low socioeconomic groups (let's call them LSGs for short) to succeed. But in doing so, MANY of today's URM/LSGs would fail school for a while. And that would also be deemed racist (which is why a lot of schools just brainlessly promote inner-city kids -- if they made them stay until they met the requirements, they'd be 25). So, like I said, we have a culture where people -- who have good intentions -- are basically doing a disservice to the people who they want to help. If we coddle URM/LSGs, then we do not change the circumstances that fostered their poor performance in the first place; we just accept it. That's my point.

I agree with what you say kinetic. It needs to start with elementary school and 'better parenting', however, such a change won't take place anytime soon. And yes, it may be unfair or fair or whatever, depending on what side you're on, but nothing's going to change anytime soon. Maybe it'll slowly change, but certainly not abruptly. In the meantime, what happens to all of the 'LSGs' that the disservice was done to? As I said before, it'll happen eventually, but it'll be a very slow process. I have no hard feelings towards you or your view. I understand where you are coming from and I believe that underneath it all, you understand me as well.

 

[pathdr2b]

I agree with what you say kinetic. It needs to start with elementary school and 'better parenting', however, such a change won't take place anytime soon. And yes, it may be unfair or fair or whatever, depending on what side you're on, but nothing's going to change anytime soon. Maybe it'll slowly change, but certainly not abruptly. In the meantime, what happens to all of the 'LSGs' that the disservice was done to? As I said before, it'll happen eventually, but it'll be a very slow process. I have no hard feelings towards you or your view. I understand where you are coming from and I believe that underneath it all, you understand me as well.

And for the record lets not forget the negative impact of attitudes of these mostly nonminority teachers can have on these minority students in the first place. As former teacher at an inner-city school, I can't tell you how many times I've seen this "bad attitude" from teachers. One HUGE reason students at these schools don't do well is because the "bar for academic achievement" has already been lowered. Some people call this a form of institutional racism.

So just like the parents of children who attend "poor" schools have a responsibility to teach their children how to do well in school, so do the teachers who 's responsibility it is to TEACH them HOW to do well in school.

 

[Gbemi24]

P.S. SE Asia sucks because it's largely undeveloped and non-capitalist. That's another thread. But look at Singapore and Hong Kong and Japan.

Well isn't one's socio-political ideology part of one's culture? So you are essentially saying that SE Asia has a regressive culture. This means that SE Asian immigrants do not succeed in America because of the culture from which they came. They succeed disproportionately because they are a non-representative group that consists of highly motivated and skilled people. If most of the Asians coming to this country were from Asian ghettos and Shanty towns with no vocational skills, they would not be overrepresented in American Universities.

I am a huge critic of the regressive culture within the black community, but let's not make misleading comparisons between Asians and blacks.

 

[bigbassinbob]

LET'S BE REAL

Yes it's true that URM's are not all poor and grow up in the ghetto. Just because you have food to eat and clothes on your back doesn't mean that your school system has a rigorous enough program to prepare you to be able to compete against so many others that have been in better quality schools.

You don't get to choose what kindergarden you go to. Your economic status will determine what community you live in and you will go to the school that supports your community.
It's unfair that as a 6yr old I am not being taught as well as as another 6 yr old who lives in a community that is supported by a better school system.
By the time I go to 1st grade I am already at a disadvantage. I can only count to 30 but you can count to 60. Is it my fault? It's a snow ball effect. By the time I get to 9th grade I am ready to take pre-algebra but you have already been prepared for this class and were blessed to take it in the 8th grade so now you're in algebra I. By the time SAT's role around isn't there a LARGE possibility that you will know more than me and perform better? Anyone who disagrees that this is not happening is NAIVE So now you get accepted to a better college. I go to a (state school) whatever that means and you are at yale, duke, penn etc. Here we go again. The level of education is definitely not level when you compare one of those schools to XX state university. So now we take the MCAT and you still know more than I do because your school programs were harder than mine. ( NOT ONLY DID YOU LEARN YOUR ABC''S IN ORDER BUT THEY TAUGHT YOU HOW TO SAY THEM BACKWARDS TO ENSURE COMPREHENSION NOT MEMORIZATION )

Now many of you may argue that you have to be able to contain the knowledge and that just because you went to a better school means nothing. THE POINT IS THAT THE OPPORTUNITY WAS PROVIDED AND THEN THE END RESULT IS DETERMINED BY YOU. I on the other hand was never given the opportunity to obtain the level of knowledge you did.

THIS IS THE CASE FOR MOST MINORITIES. THerefore AA is a good thing. THe disparities in education have to end somewhere. It pisses me off that we don't perform as well as others but there is a reason. Therefore
I take no offense to people who say they would be ashamed to be given a boost and use AA as a crutch. I personally have never felt the need to use it because I was a smart child and I enjoyed studying and strived hard to understand. I am very intelligent but often I would have a hard time understanding simple concepts such as conversions in physics and chemistry, percentages, moving decimals, properly interpreting a ruler and measurements. (This is in highschool and college) To others it came so natural and they made me feel as though I was dumb. In reality I had never been taught these things properly or on the same level as my peers.
Not all minorities catch on as quickly as I do. I think there is a need for AA not based on color but conditions and many would agree that THE MAJORITY OF THOSE FACING THESE CONDITIONS ARE OF COLOR. This is why I hold my head up high, when many of you frown upon us based on so called underqualifications which have arisen from years of institutional racism against minorities(This is me being real and no longer sugar coating it) , as I step into the halls of professionalism and dare someone to say I don't deserve to be here. Whether it's intentional or not it's reality and many need to remove the blind folds from their eyes.

First of all, you are a ***** and should be slapped for saying this. I'm sure you're glad you got your boost from AA to get into medical school, because you're obviously not capable of doing so on your own.

Now I'll prove you an ignorant, illogical fool by saying that I WENT TO THE EXACT SAME PUBLIC ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, MIDDLE SCHOOL, AND HIGH SCHOOL AS A TON OF MINORITIES. These kids had the exact same opportunities as I did. We had the exact same teachers, schools, and overall education. The school systems make it a point to keep away from all-white or all-black schools, so they mix them together by bringing kids in from all over the place for a certain school. For example, you seem to think that there are certain public schools where all the rich white kids go and certain schools where all the poor minorities go. This doesn't happen anywhere. I had to ride a bus for 30 minutes every morning just so my school could have its racial quota.

So by the time me and the minorities who went to the same schools as I did have all taken the SAT and graduated high school, our educational backgrounds are THE SAME. If you can only "count to 30" when I can "count to 60" at that point, that's your own damn fault. The only difference here is that minorities get a boost from AA for having the right skin color.

Now let's say that at this point, the minority who can only "count to 30" gets into Harvard because he's black. Even though I can "count to 60," I don't make it into Harvard because I'm white, so I'm forced to go to my state school. Using your own logic, this means that I will be dumber by the time I graduate than the black guy who went to Harvard.

Say we both want to go to medical school. My black classmate from high school is "smarter" than I am at this point, so I'm already at a disadvantage. But here's the best part: he gets ANOTHER boost from AA to get into med school, while I'm not given that same opportunity again because I'm white.

So in the end, the "oppressed" black guy is in med school and I'm stuck on the curb because I'm the "oppressive" white guy.

The moral here: Quit complaining about all the hardships you went through, the truth is I went through more than you did.

 

[kinetic]

Like I said: AA just fosters increased racial tensions and discontentment. I personally am in agreement with bigbassinbob. When I went to college, I was not (by any means) a superstar. I had a 3.6 GPA and got nada from scholarships. My roommate was black and had a 2.5 GPA and was on a full scholarship -- he also had been his school valedectorian. He told me that the only thing he needed to do to keep qualifying for the full ride was maintain a GPA above 2.0 -- that really made me woozy (P.S., he didn't maintain his GPA). Now, I am also by no means rich ...my family also struggled to help me through college. So I was always resentful that he was rewarded for being "the best of the worst" (I don't mean that as a racial thing). But, since I always blather about overcoming obstacles, I just went about my thing (and didn't ever help him out ...heh heh heh ...no notes for u if u don't go to class, sucker!).

 

[BubbleBobble]

Speaking as an Asian, I have a hypothesis about the difference between ORMs and URMs. Maybe one of the big differences between Asians and Blacks is that although Asians have had many hardships, they did not start off in this country as slaves.

Not all URMs are Blacks. How would you explain Latino applicants?

 

[BubbleBobble]

First of all, you are a ***** and should be slapped for saying this. I'm sure you're glad you got your boost from AA to get into medical school, because you're obviously not capable of doing so on your own.

Now I'll prove you an ignorant, illogical fool by saying that I WENT TO THE EXACT SAME PUBLIC ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, MIDDLE SCHOOL, AND HIGH SCHOOL AS A TON OF MINORITIES. These kids had the exact same opportunities as I did. We had the exact same teachers, schools, and overall education. The school systems make it a point to keep away from all-white or all-black schools, so they mix them together by bringing kids in from all over the place for a certain school. For example, you seem to think that there are certain public schools where all the rich white kids go and certain schools where all the poor minorities go. This doesn't happen anywhere. I had to ride a bus for 30 minutes every morning just so my school could have its racial quota.

So by the time me and the minorities who went to the same schools as I did have all taken the SAT and graduated high school, our educational backgrounds are THE SAME. If you can only "count to 30" when I can "count to 60" at that point, that's your own damn fault. The only difference here is that minorities get a boost from AA for having the right skin color.

Now let's say that at this point, the minority who can only "count to 30" gets into Harvard because he's black. Even though I can "count to 60," I don't make it into Harvard because I'm white, so I'm forced to go to my state school. Using your own logic, this means that I will be dumber by the time I graduate than the black guy who went to Harvard.

Say we both want to go to medical school. My black classmate from high school is "smarter" than I am at this point, so I'm already at a disadvantage. But here's the best part: he gets ANOTHER boost from AA to get into med school, while I'm not given that same opportunity again because I'm white.

So in the end, the "oppressed" black guy is in med school and I'm stuck on the curb because I'm the "oppressive" white guy.

The moral here: Quit complaining about all the hardships you went through, the truth is I went through more than you did.

Good post.

 

[exmike]

Gee exmike, I'm very suprised you made this statement. For some reason I just assumed you had stronger discernment capabilities this.

path how did i offend you? to me "oriental" is derogatory to asians just as the N word is derogatory to blacks. Yes, the history behind black racial epithets is more significant, but ignorance is ignorance isn't it? I hope you just misread me. I didn't intend to equate the two at all (i think thats what you were referring to?) otherwise lemme know what you are thinking.

oh yeah, I wasn't gettin all over fermata, I was merely pointing out that it wasn't "just another word". I wasnt out to rip him or anything.

 

[gschl1234]

Not all URMs are Blacks. How would you explain Latino applicants?

Good point Bubble, I was addressing the previous posts which had focused on Asians and Blacks only.

 

[Petitpois]

....breath deep dude.....what is wrong with you? I just asked 10 of my "Asian" friends if they would be offended by being referred to as "Oriental" and many of them laughed...some ask "why would I?". A Pilipino friend said she preferred "Pacific Islander" and then followed that with..."what ever".

I disagree. Just because it's not offensive to some doesn't mean it's not offensive to all. I'm an Asian from a big, liberal city on the West Coast, and it's incredibly surprising and rare to hear someone refer to an Asian as "Oriental." I don't feel deeply offended by the word, but generally people who use it make me kind of do a double-take and wonder how many Asian people they've met before.

 

[pathdr2b]

Yes, the history behind black racial epithets is more significant, but ignorance is ignorance isn't it? I hope you just misread me.

Common now Exmike. When was the last time someone went to a furniture store and ordered a Ni*** rug? Oriental, while offensive (and I have Asian friends) doesn't have the same connotation as the N-word. But I don't want split hairs over which word is the most offensive, they both are ignorant words.

 

[exmike]

Common now Exmike. When was the last time someone went to a furniture store and ordered a Ni*** rug? Oriental, while offensive (and I have Asian friends) doesn't have the same connotation as the N-word. But I don't want split hairs over which word is the most offensive, they both are ignorant words.

like i said, they're not the same. i was simply implying that ignorace=ignorance any way you slice it.

oriental rug is a legit term though, although i still dont like it.

 

[pathdr2b]

First of all, you are a ***** and should be slapped for saying this. I'm sure you're glad you got your boost from AA to get into medical school, because you're obviously not capable of doing so on your own.

Now I'll prove you an ignorant, illogical fool by saying that I WENT TO THE EXACT SAME PUBLIC ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, MIDDLE SCHOOL, AND HIGH SCHOOL AS A TON OF MINORITIES. These kids had the exact same opportunities as I did. We had the exact same teachers, schools, and overall education. The school systems make it a point to keep away from all-white or all-black schools, so they mix them together by bringing kids in from all over the place for a certain school. For example, you seem to think that there are certain public schools where all the rich white kids go and certain schools where all the poor minorities go. This doesn't happen anywhere. I had to ride a bus for 30 minutes every morning just so my school could have its racial quota.

So by the time me and the minorities who went to the same schools as I did have all taken the SAT and graduated high school, our educational backgrounds are THE SAME. If you can only "count to 30" when I can "count to 60" at that point, that's your own damn fault. The only difference here is that minorities get a boost from AA for having the right skin color.

Now let's say that at this point, the minority who can only "count to 30" gets into Harvard because he's black. Even though I can "count to 60," I don't make it into Harvard because I'm white, so I'm forced to go to my state school. Using your own logic, this means that I will be dumber by the time I graduate than the black guy who went to Harvard.

Say we both want to go to medical school. My black classmate from high school is "smarter" than I am at this point, so I'm already at a disadvantage. But here's the best part: he gets ANOTHER boost from AA to get into med school, while I'm not given that same opportunity again because I'm white.

So in the end, the "oppressed" black guy is in med school and I'm stuck on the curb because I'm the "oppressive" white guy.

The moral here: Quit complaining about all the hardships you went through, the truth is I went through more than you did.

By far the most ignorant, illconceived post in the HISTORY of SDN!!!

 

[kinetic]

By far the most ignorant, illconceived post in the HISTORY of SDN!!!

No more so than the post by chalklette. It just presented the opposing viewpoint. I didn't agree with some of what chalklette said, but I didn't just say, "Man, was that ignorant and ******ed! "

 

[willthatsall]

First of all, you are a ***** and should be slapped for saying this.

Now that's funny.

 

[gaf]

oriental rug is a legit term though, although i still dont like it.

What about Persian rugs?

Out of curiosity, do you have trouble with a commonly accepted term for that piece of furniture that goes in front of a chair?

 

[exmike]

What about Persian rugs?

Out of curiosity, do you have trouble with a commonly accepted term for that piece of furniture that goes in front of a chair?

maybe turks do.

 

[gaf]

See I've never understood that. (Which is not to say that that makes it an illetimate complaint.)

Is it because the region is no longer the Ottoman Empire? Would people prefer that furniture stores sell you a matching anatolian? I suppose that logic holds up for oriental carpets, too. Is the problem that the name of the piece of furniture could also refer to an individual?

Maybe it's the "you put your feet on them" argument. But then we're back to the Persian carpet thing again.

Or is it a general dislike for ethnically based words? But then you've got Irish Breakfast Tea, Jamaican Rum, and Cuban cigars.

 

[bigbassinbob]

By far the most ignorant, illconceived post in the HISTORY of SDN!!!

Man, the entire history of SDN? You're funny. Prove me wrong and you'll get some kind of thumbs up from me too.

 

[exmike]

See I've never understood that. (Which is not to say that that makes it an illetimate complaint.)

Is it because the region is no longer the Ottoman Empire? Would people prefer that furniture stores sell you a matching anatolian? I suppose that logic holds up for oriental carpets, too. Is the problem that the name of the piece of furniture could also refer to an individual?

Maybe it's the "you put your feet on them" argument. But then we're back to the Persian carpet thing again.

Or is it a general dislike for ethnically based words? But then you've got Irish Breakfast Tea, Jamaican Rum, and Cuban cigars.

The reason for the dislike is because the world "oriental" has it's roots in xenophobia and racism. The same cant be said for "irish tea" or "jamaican rum" .

 

[gaf]

Sorry. It's the ottoman thing I never understood.

 

[Spitting Camel]

This thread needs to die, die, DIE!!!!

 

[coffeeluver]

And you think that just because someone is black and they become a physician that means they would want to practice in the housing projects? What the hell is wrong with you? NOBODY wants to or does practice in housing projects. People who live in housing projects typically get treated in the emergency room, and yes I've seen it because I've worked in one for a year, not a private practice doctor's office. The vast majority of those in the projects don't have insurance, meaning that virtually no physician (black, white, mexican, or otherwise) would even treat them.

And as for those minorities who pass the boards not being "underqualified" anymore, that's because they were let into medical school as underqualified applicants and given the chance to pass the tests. Almost anyone, given the chance, could pass the USMLE if they had the opportunity to take two years of medical school beforehand. The point is that a minority took someone else's spot who was a stronger applicant and could have probably scored higher on the boards just because of their skin color. How is that fair?

You're an idiot. There have been studies done that most disadvantaged URM's who become physicians go back to practice in the community they grew up. Why don't you stop whining about AA this and AA that. If there weren't any minority doctors then the minority population would have no access to healthcare. What?? YOu want the minorities to continue going to emergency rooms to get treated? As a future physician, you should know the state of crisis our emergency rooms are in. Yeah, why don't we just continue closing all the emergency rooms just so we can let more students with higher gpas and mcat scores into med school.