JAMA: Delay all incoming med students

[rdyotz]

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Wow, the authors have been (quarantined too long)/(working too many hours) that they lost track of time. April 1st was last Wednesday.

It does not make logistical sense to take untrained M1s when an untrained person can perform the tasks needed. There is already a shortage of ~80,000 physicians, and you want to add another 20,000 to that, as well as any physician casualties that occur due to COVID?

I would gladly volunteer in my free time, in addition to medical school, but voluntoldism is asinine.

 

[FutureSurgical]

I get schools could legally do this with bylaws in place, but push out our class after M3 into residency? Yeah okay. That makes sense...

To be honest, this is placing a bandaid on a deep laceration. Sure it may stop the bleeding for a bit, but this won’t solve anything. In fact, in the end you’re making things worse. Malpractice insurance rates will go higher for the less-trained new interns. The government would have to put more money into funding residencies. I’m sorry but this is a bad idea.

Why not create a position that pre-health profession students can do? Delay loan repayment, offer incentives for discounted tuition/board/fees/etc. I promise you there are a ton of premeds that would kill for that kinda clinical exposure to put on his/her AMCAS. If the work the author is suggesting is doable by an incoming M1, I’m pretty sure a junior/senior in college could do the same/similar work.

 

[deleted621740]

If they don’t offer deferment, what would you guys do?

Honestly I'd do it just because I've worked so hard to get into medical school and it's what I want to do. But that doesn't mean that the recommendation made in that paper is logical or uniquely efficacious.

 

[Goro]

Since no initial skills are required, what would be gained by blocking medical students instead of opening up the opportunity to the general public or even other health professional students at the minimum?

Having just read the article, I agree. The authors seem to place some magical properties in raw recruit M1s. It would be cheaper to enact a draft, then get say 100,000 bodies, and train them in exactly the same way and do the same things that the authors propose.

 

[mdapplicant2024]

Gotta put out the fire that is burning now before training new firemen. This is what happens in every war, they start throwing bodies at it.

You speak in hyperbolies and throw around extreme, worse case scenarios on this forum during a time that is very stressful for everyone, No projection used by the CDC or NIH is saying that these conditions will last ”6-24 months.” Dr. Tony Fauci has said that guidance can be looked at from China, where they just ended the 87 day lockdown. That is realistic to look at, life is slowly returning to normal albeit a bit different of course and will take a while to level there. We might take longer, but I take great offense at you trying to create almost a hysteria type of mentality from this on pre-medical students with no formal medical training, suggesting that residencies won’t take students if they don’t help out. Let’s be supportive here and try to take it day by day. I’m positive things will start looking better by June like the projections suggest

 

[Sephirakra]

Having just read the article, I agree. The authors seem to place some magical properties in raw recruit M1s. It would be cheaper to enact a draft, then get say 100,000 bodies, and train them in exactly the same way and do the same things that the authors propose.

They mention something along those lines, but it's more of a passing thought at the end of the fourth graph: "The federal government should fund this project as a national service effort with a salary for the students and health coverage; it could be part of a larger initiative to engage other students, including those in nursing and public health, as well as out-of-work community members in the national response."

The federal government wouldn't even need to use a draft - just recruit recent grads and other unemployed people with applicable skill sets. I would've loved a gig like this after I got my MPH.

 

[IDapplicant]

The only people who would benefit from this would be Caribbean medical schools with 0 residency competition in 4 years.

 

[WildWing]

If someone would be interested in writing a rebuttal to this proposal, SDN would be interested in publishing it as an article. You can PM me or email [email protected].

 

[strappysandals]

wait, then ill keep my gap year job where at least I get paid to be exposed to covid????

 

[LizzyM]

Lol yeah that was a good quote - the audacity to say they will give incoming students “the opportunity...”.

ALSO they said “because fewer students means less tuition revenue, the federal government should compensate medical schools for a portion of this lost income”.

They’re saying they want to pay the MED schools for OUR work. Like excuse me?? Do they think we’re indentured servants to be loaned out??

The federal government should fund this project as a national service effort with a salary for the students and health coverage; it could be part of a larger initiative to engage other students, including those in nursing and public health, as well as out-of-work community members in the national response.

Also, they float the idea of graduating some students in 3 years which would then provide a graduating class in 2024 despite not having students who started in 2020.

And there is also a provision to do online training for a month! One presumes that this training would be pitched at a relativley high level because the student body has a substantial fund of knowledge, far higher than the general public.

 

[Tastysalmon]

The likely reason that no one from any official position is discussing the long term (length of the pandemic, total sick, total death, need for restrictions) is it is politically unpalatable. But do understand the following:

A) The "flattening of the curve" is solely to spread out the number of cases; it will not reduce by much the total number of cases over time
B) Until there is wide spread diagnostic testing for who has it now; wide spread anti body testing to show who ever had, and effective, wide spread vaccination program, social distancing is the only weapon we have in this fight
C) Therefore, a need for some level social restrictions will be necessary for the foreseeable future. Failure to do so will just bring more outbreaks

All the major models, from Imperial College London, University of Washington, Columbia University, as well as CDC/WHO, all generally agree that over the entire course of this pandemic, without any mitigation, about 1/3-1/2 of all Americans would have been infected (50-150 million) and 2.2 million Americans would have likely died. If we are at 90% effective at mitigation, 5-15 million infected and 220,000 would die. The UW model assumes complete mitigation: that is every state is "locked down" thru the end of May. Some states still have no shelter in place order; many that do have such loose restrictions that have only partial lock down effectiveness. The Columbia University model assumes partial lock down. We are creating 200,000-300,000 additional beds in field hospitals over the next 2-6 months as well as expecting existing hospitals to be able to deal with 150%-200% capacity.

However, as with the major pandemics of the 20th century (1918-1920 "Spanish Flu", 1951-1953 Polio, 1957-1959 "Hong Kong Flu" and 1967-1969 "Hong Kong" Flu) the social reaction has followed the same pattern. First (less than full) season, it hits with large social reaction. But then subsides and people become lax in behavior. Second (full season) year is usually most devastating. Third sees a tapering off as a large portion of the population has had some exposure. There is no reason whatsoever to expect a highly contagious and infections virus such as the Novel Corona will behave any differently

As for the Chinese, their centralized political, social, and economic structure as well as their experience with SARS, made them uniquely equipped to deal with this and far beyond what is possible or acceptable in the USA.
1) They had the ability and will to order a complete lockdown of an entire city of 150 and the police to enforce it.
2) they could transfer some 50,000-100,000 medical personnel to Wuhan en masse as a centralized army of health care workers
3) they could inspect all people on the street at multiple times (leaving any building, entering any building, going in to store, etc)
4) if you found with any symptoms or even had exposure, you could be taken and forcibly placed in a quarantine dorm. This was especially true with taking family members out and isolating them. Essentially anyone who had any level of disease or even suspected exposure, you were quarantined.
5) they had the central economic ability to ordered huge production of PPE and provide to all medical staff. if you saw how there assembly line ideas were also applied to how doctors/nurses were "suited up" almost like astronauts (including diapers) in 3 layers at one end of the hospital and then after shift, decontaminated at the the other end of the hospital, you would be shocked as comparison to here

Even so, China is beginning to set up quarantine and lock down in cities now as millions of Chinese start returning home. They know full well

If you want call what I say hysteria, but all the current data, the medical facts, and past history of similar events, is the reality I describe. If you think I am trying to scare people, you bet your ass I am. Its a warning, one based on on the observational evidence and not the political spin. We will be living under some sort of restrictions for sometime and ultimately, the world-wide total death toll from COVID over the next 1-3 years is likely to exceed the all the death that have ever been attributed to HIV, about 40 million

Whether you think that using medical students as "draftees" in this battle is a good idea or not, it is what will come to pass

Okay general but you forgot to address one thing. Why tf would you use incoming med students with the same level of education as a regular collage grad in public health roles? You literally have millions of unemployed ppl rn who could do this work (and would love to). Use them, get them paid. Have the medical students become doctors to fight this “war”. Seriously it makes no sense to stop the supply of future docs and residents when there is LITERALLY a supply of workers SITTING AT HOME. This is NOT a good use of resources.

how can you fight your “war” without new docs in the pipeline? Huh, general?

Edit: use of “general” in this statement is meant to reflect the ridiculousness of this person’s excessive hyperbole and equivocation of this situation to war and drafts

 

[Tastysalmon]

The federal government should fund this project as a national service effort with a salary for the students and health coverage; it could be part of a larger initiative to engage other students, including those in nursing and public health, as well as out-of-work community members in the national response.

Also, they float the idea of graduating some students in 3 years which would then provide a graduating class in 2024 despite not having students who started in 2020.

And there is also a provision to do online training for a month! One presumes that this training would be pitched at a relativley high level because the student body has a substantial fund of knowledge, far higher than the general public.

But it still doesn’t make sense to me (and many others) why we would use this workforce when so many are out of work already. It just seems really unnecessary. Also, the med schools shouldn’t be paid for the incoming M1s work, that’s honestly one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever seen.

 

[proudofmykids]

Gotta put out the fire that is burning now before training new firemen. This is what happens in every war, they start throwing bodies at it.

Even in war, troops attend Basic Training before being shipped off.‍

 

[strappysandals]

Okay general but you forgot to address one thing. Why tf would you use incoming med students with the same level of education as a regular collage grad in public health roles? You literally have millions of unemployed ppl rn who could do this work (and would love to). Use them, get them paid. Have the medical students become doctors to fight this “war”. Seriously it makes no sense to stop the supply of future docs and residents when there is LITERALLY a supply of workers SITTING AT HOME. This is NOT a good use of resources.

how can you fight your “war” without new docs in the pipeline? Huh, general?

Yeah, someone made a good comment on the actual article....

What about all the MPH grads or 1st year MPH students????? Aren't some of the tasks they are asking for literally what MPH grads are trained to do?

edit: the comment on JAMA:

"Yes, we have a critical shortage of public health workers but we are about to graduate our 2020 MPH class. We also have just as many first year Master’s degree students who have achieved a skill level appropriate to many needed tasks. Create and give these jobs to public health students and graduates first! They have already demonstrated a commitment to public health and a desire to serve. Add a loan repayment program for them. They are standing in the wings right now!"

 

[Tastysalmon]

Also can we please stop calling this a war lol. Literally a war is defined as “a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state”. Unless the the virus comes out of its envelope and declares itself a nation, this isn’t a war.

 

[openstage]

Here's an unpopular idea - get your rotten tomatoes ready to throw...

I wonder how many prospective students who did not get an A this year, would be willing to do this if there was a tangible benefit to their application the following year? I know that sounds horrible and self serving, and certainly not the reason to help others, but what if anyone who committed 6 months of service got a special perk? Like a 5 point bump on their MCAT, or an automatic interview with at least 1 school? Maybe they are exempt from taking the CASPer? YES - I know this is unpractical, and also unethical, but if you really want volunteers, give them what they want - a leg up. There are many prospective students who complain they have a hard time finding meaningful volunteer opportunities to help others. Here ya go! You might be surprised how many gap year folks would say "Sure, I'll volunteer."

Like I said, a villainous unpopular idea!

 

[GreenDuck12]

Okay general but you forgot to address one thing. Why tf would you use incoming med students with the same level of education as a regular collage grad in public health roles? You literally have millions of unemployed ppl rn who could do this work (and would love to). Use them, get them paid. Have the medical students become doctors to fight this “war”. Seriously it makes no sense to stop the supply of future docs and residents when there is LITERALLY a supply of workers SITTING AT HOME. This is NOT a good use of resources.

how can you fight your “war” without new docs in the pipeline? Huh, general?

When you respond to someone and call them “general” you pretty much negate the substance and seriousness of your response. That being said, you are right that there are millions of unemployed folks but the M1 population is very different: younger, healthier, and less likely to have unmoveable familial ties or families at home with compromised immune systems. Your argument essentially boils down to use out of work individuals who are desperate for work and don’t screw with my medical education/future plans. That’s fair but you need to spend sometime examining the inherent privilege in your argument.

 

[openstage]

I'll also add this - the reason the editor recommended incoming Med students, over anyone else from the public is because 1) It directly relates to their future training; and 2) It helps solidify their commitment to serving others, regardless of the personal risk. That's what I infer.

 

[KnightDoc]

The likely reason that no one from any official position is discussing the long term (length of the pandemic, total sick, total death, need for restrictions) is it is politically unpalatable. But do understand the following:

A) The "flattening of the curve" is solely to spread out the number of cases; it will not reduce by much the total number of cases over time
B) Until there is wide spread diagnostic testing for who has it now; wide spread anti body testing to show who ever had, and effective, wide spread vaccination program, social distancing is the only weapon we have in this fight
C) Therefore, a need for some level social restrictions will be necessary for the foreseeable future. Failure to do so will just bring more outbreaks

All the major models, from Imperial College London, University of Washington, Columbia University, as well as CDC/WHO, all generally agree that over the entire course of this pandemic, without any mitigation, about 1/3-1/2 of all Americans would have been infected (50-150 million) and 2.2 million Americans would have likely died. If we are at 90% effective at mitigation, 5-15 million infected and 220,000 would die. The UW model assumes complete mitigation: that is every state is "locked down" thru the end of May. Some states still have no shelter in place order; many that do have such loose restrictions that have only partial lock down effectiveness. The Columbia University model assumes partial lock down. We are creating 200,000-300,000 additional beds in field hospitals over the next 2-6 months as well as expecting existing hospitals to be able to deal with 150%-200% capacity.

However, as with the major pandemics of the 20th century (1918-1920 "Spanish Flu", 1951-1953 Polio, 1957-1959 "Hong Kong Flu" and 1967-1969 "Hong Kong" Flu) the social reaction has followed the same pattern. First (less than full) season, it hits with large social reaction. But then subsides and people become lax in behavior. Second (full season) year is usually most devastating. Third sees a tapering off as a large portion of the population has had some exposure. There is no reason whatsoever to expect a highly contagious and infections virus such as the Novel Corona will behave any differently

As for the Chinese, their centralized political, social, and economic structure as well as their experience with SARS, made them uniquely equipped to deal with this and far beyond what is possible or acceptable in the USA.
1) They had the ability and will to order a complete lockdown of an entire city of 150 and the police to enforce it.
2) they could transfer some 50,000-100,000 medical personnel to Wuhan en masse as a centralized army of health care workers
3) they could inspect all people on the street at multiple times (leaving any building, entering any building, going in to store, etc)
4) if you found with any symptoms or even had exposure, you could be taken and forcibly placed in a quarantine dorm. This was especially true with taking family members out and isolating them. Essentially anyone who had any level of disease or even suspected exposure, you were quarantined.
5) they had the central economic ability to ordered huge production of PPE and provide to all medical staff. if you saw how there assembly line ideas were also applied to how doctors/nurses were "suited up" almost like astronauts (including diapers) in 3 layers at one end of the hospital and then after shift, decontaminated at the the other end of the hospital, you would be shocked as comparison to here

Even so, China is beginning to set up quarantine and lock down in cities now as millions of Chinese start returning home. They know full well

If you want call what I say hysteria, but all the current data, the medical facts, and past history of similar events, is the reality I describe. If you think I am trying to scare people, you bet your ass I am. Its a warning, one based on on the observational evidence and not the political spin. We will be living under some sort of restrictions for sometime and ultimately, the world-wide total death toll from COVID over the next 1-3 years is likely to exceed the all the death that have ever been attributed to HIV, about 40 million

Whether you think that using medical students as "draftees" in this battle is a good idea or not, it is what will come to pass

Given that you have a general awareness of what is politically palatable, why do you think it would be politically palatable to suspend the training of future MDs for a year (and create a permanent loss of 20,000 MDs for a generation) when social distancing can be achieved through online classes?

If it is politically palatable for med school administrations to be too overwhelmed to conduct an admissions cycle, when are they going to start making their announcements, other than through you here? The cycle is otherwise going to start in the beginning of June, just when the rest of the economy is projected to begin starting back up.

 

[Tastysalmon]

When you respond to someone and call them “general” you pretty much negate the substance and seriousness of your response. That being said, you are right that there are millions of unemployed folks but the M1 population is very different: younger, healthier, and less likely to have unmoveable familial ties or families at home with compromised immune systems. Your argument essentially boils down to use out of work individuals who are desperate for work and don’t screw with my medical education/future plans. That’s fair but you need to spend sometime examining the inherent privilege in your argument.

I know, I hear you and thank you for pointing that out. If this was a completely serious forum that had any impact on anything (besides just discussion), I wouldn’t use hyperbole. I responded in that way to highlight the ridiculousness of their statements. That is why I followed it up with a message that we should stop calling this “war”. Because it’s not.

 

[Engrailed]

Also can we please stop calling this a war lol. Literally a war is defined as “a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state”. Unless the the virus comes out of its envelope and declares itself a nation, this isn’t a war.

Agree. "War" is being flagrantly thrown around by agents in the media and political figures, but unlike an actual war, people do NOT have to die if precautions are taken seriously. Given the nature of this horrible disease, there will be many fatalities but given that the majority of this country is under a lockdown, the models have ALREADY started to shift. Dr. Fauci already suggests that, US deaths may be lower than the projections. (Fingers crossed that people continue to do their part by staying home)

Literally, don't understand why premeds would be better at helping in the nonclinical functions within a hospital than someone who is already unemployed and as a family to feed. Shouldn't we be advocating to produce new doctors sooner than later?

 

[deleted947265]

If someone would be interested in writing a rebuttal to this proposal, SDN would be interested in publishing it as an article. You can PM me or email [email protected].

I'm down. Gotta do some work stuff so I don't know if I'll be able to finish today.

 

[thegrind33]

I'll also add this - the reason the editor recommended incoming Med students, over anyone else from the public is because 1) It directly relates to their future training; and 2) It helps solidify their commitment to serving others, regardless of the personal risk. That's what I infer.

Yeah because all future medical students will all become intensitivists.....

 

[Engrailed]

If you want call what I say hysteria, but all the current data, the medical facts, and past history of similar events, is the reality I describe. If you think I am trying to scare people, you bet your ass I am.

This is wrong. YES, Covid-19 is a crisis and it's pretty much all hands on deck, but promoting unnecessary fear and panic is exactly what has led to ordinary people hoarding PPE (depriving medical professionals of supplies they sorely need), people clearing out store shelves at the expense of elderly or other vulnerable people from getting the groceries/supplies plus other dire and even fatal consequences.

The truth is that unlike a war, the vast majority of people have AGENCY in how this plays out. If people stay home, which the numbers currently suggest that people ARE, there will be no need of a medical draft etc.

 

[mmchick]

I promise you it will get worse. As people fall ill by the millions, there will be a call for all able bodied volunteers. Who do you think will help in the nonclinical roles of the 200,000-300,000 new field hospital beds opening in the next 2-6 months? This is what happens in war

I've seen your alarmist posts around here and generally I agree and heed your advice with most other things but the subject of COVID-19 - I'm curious why you are so incessant on spreading around alarmist projections and hyperbolizing this situation as a 1-2 year long "war" that would require essentially extortion and coercion to get M1s to serve as underpaid or free volunteers?

This data compiled by UWash shows US hitting peak deaths in 3 days with an estimated total death toll <100,000. No one denies that this could return seasonally and we'll see another resurgence of infection/death, but arguably, we're in the thick of it now, not the thick of it during seasonal recurrence and some trends are already potentially showing a log slowing in progression: WHO Situation Report 78.

No one is denying that this situation is bad or unprecedented. And yes we were all surprised with every inch that this has progressed.. but to suggest that M1s are essentially going to get extorted into involuntary servitude (do this or damn your career), delaying their income and graduation 1+ years because this is the situation we're in and the sacrifices we must make is honestly just hearsay against any of the lucky guesses anyone else has to make about things.

People are already scared and under pressure in this time. It's just disappointing to hear people want to spread theories that paint very grim and extreme pictures when no one is sure of anything at this point. It doesn't help at all. If we were to get "drafted" in this dystopian future of yours, then we'll cross that bridge when we get to that very hypothetical bridge. But for now, casting these very inflaming projections doesn't do anyone any good.

 

[deleted966164]

Also can we please stop calling this a war lol. Literally a war is defined as “a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state”. Unless the the virus comes out of its envelope and declares itself a nation, this isn’t a war.

Have you been to any ICU lately?

 

[deleted947265]

I think the politics here will be overwhelmed by the staffing needs. In short, the long chain of the admissions process from the hundreds (or thousands) of UG colleges providing 140,000 transcripts (half of which are still paper), most of which are on reduced staff at best thru AMCAS and its processing to the needs of the medical school, which is likely the first source of nonclinical volunteers/draftees. I just the "system" which have too few people at too many points to effectively run

AMCAS could just not verify the transcripts and push it off on the schools to do it before offering an acceptance. I really doubt there are that many people spoofing their transcripts, and I certainly wouldn't trust the AAMC to catch them.

 

[KnightDoc]

I think the politics here will be overwhelmed by the staffing needs. In short, the long chain of the admissions process from the hundreds (or thousands) of UG colleges providing 140,000 transcripts (half of which are still paper), most of which are on reduced staff at best thru AMCAS and its processing to the needs of the medical school, which is likely the first source of nonclinical volunteers/draftees. I just the "system" which have too few people at too many points to effectively run

Fair enough, but you have been throwing this out as a possibility for a few weeks now, and not only has no school even hinted at it as being on the table, but a few have put out specific guidance as to how to proceed without MCAT scores. When is it going to happen, given that the country is supposed hitting the top of the curve now, and the cycle is presently scheduled to open in 7 weeks, right around the time things are likely to start opening up again?

Staffing shortages can certainly be addressed -- big cities were short hospital beds, and now, a few short weeks later, convention centers all over the country are makeshift hospitals. I honestly don't think an entire nationwide medical school class is going to be cancelled due to reduced staff, particularly at a time when people all over the country are projected to be going back to work, even if remotely. It's not 1950 -- pretty much anything can be done remotely, given the right amount of investment in technology. No MCAT? We'll figure it out later. No GPA verification? We'll figure it out later. There are plenty of adjustments that can and will be made in the face of this crisis before the industry collectively decides that the best path is to sacrifice 20,000 MD positions for a generation.

I think everyone realizes it's going to be a long time before things go back to "normal," but cancelling something that can be done remotely and that is serving a critical present and future need seems as politically unpalatable as anything else. Assuming you are correct, when is it going to happen -- between now and the end of May, or sometime in August, after tens of thousands of apps have already been submitted???

 

[deleted966164]

have they been to the parking lot with refrigerator trucks acting as morgues? NYC will start temporary burials on Hart Island, the municipal potter's field.

BTW, NYC death count is considered 25% under totals. This week the city EMS has responded daily to 225-250 deaths at home where the typical average was 25 prior to COVID

Exactly.

 

[Goro]

Also can we please stop calling this a war lol. Literally a war is defined as “a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state”. Unless the the virus comes out of its envelope and declares itself a nation, this isn’t a war.

It IS a wartime situation. Being pedantic isn't going to help

 

[KnightDoc]

If you see the AMCAS FAQ, all issues are still being reviewed. My speculation is prior to April 30, AMCAS ,will announce a months delay in opening the cycle. And let me remind you, I do agree cancelling a cycle is a terrible idea.

Yes, I read it every day looking for updates. I always thought they would extend the cycle on the back end, even when your colleagues were criticizing me for being selfish and naive, given the seller's market for med school seats, and I still do. On the other hand, if they are not going to cancel the cycle, there is no reason to delay its opening, particularly because nothing really happens until the end of June anyway. Why stop people from making submissions? AAMC doesn't have to do anything with them if they are not prepared to do so.

 

[Tastysalmon]

Have you been to any ICU lately?

Yes. It’s hell in the NE hospitals, but it’s not war.

 

[deleted966164]

Yes. It’s hell in the NE hospitals, but it’s not war.

I guess, people cope with the current situation in various ways...

 

[deleted859689]

Yes. It’s hell in the NE hospitals, but it’s not war.

War is hell

 

[Tastysalmon]

War is hell

War is hell, but hell isnt necessarily war. This is literally correlation doesn’t imply causation (a little nugget for you MCATers)

For those of you calling this a war. Could you, in good faith, go up to a veteran with PTSD from an actual war, and say this is a war? Say it’s the same thing? NO ONE IS SAYING THIS SITUATION DOESNT SUCK, it’s just not war.

 

[ChymeofPassion]

War is hell

So is the MCAT. The MCAT is war. Where is my pension?

 

[Tastysalmon]

So is the MCAT. The MCAT is war. Where is my pension?

If the MCAT is war then idk what you’d call step1 (pre-P/F of course)

 

[ChymeofPassion]

If the MCAT is war then idk what you’d call step1 (pre-P/F of course)

Armageddon

 

[meronebib]

If the MCAT is war then idk what you’d call step1 (pre-P/F of course)

*post-P/F

 

[Tastysalmon]

But it war in more than one way. While the medical battle is being fought in the hospitals, the "home front" of the civilians are being ordered to behave in a different manner on a societal scale. In World War II, there was rationing and people taking jobs then had never done because they simply
needed the "manpower." In that sense, that attitude, it will be the same here

You selectively ignored something twice now. Here’s the third try of asking you this question.

Why would you use incoming med students with the same level of education as a regular collage grad in public health roles? You literally have millions of unemployed ppl rn who could do this work (and would love to).

 

[Tastysalmon]

*post-P/F

Nahh pre-P/F. If we’re talking post-P/F then no one cares lol it’s not hard to pass

 

[Sephirakra]

War is hell

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

You selectively ignored something twice now. Here’s the third try of asking you this question.

Why would you use incoming med students with the same level of education as a regular collage grad in public health roles? You literally have millions of unemployed ppl rn who could do this work (and would love to).

Every pre-med needs to be paying attention to how physicians, residents, and medical students are being treated in all of this by the government and healthcare administration across the country. They are preying on the "commitment to serving others" with the battle cry of, "you signed up for this" all the while sitting comfortably at home doing Zoom meetings.

Quite frankly you are signing up for a life of indentured servitude. There are true human rights violations happening right now in hospitals all throughout the country. Violations that, if they occurred in any other industry, would lead to the entire industry being shut down. Doctors are being fired for speaking out, residents are being forced to work without adequate protection and subsequently dying, and nurses are being fired for bringing their own protection to work when their employer refuses to provide it. The most insane part is that these violations have been occurring the entire time but it took this pandemic to pull the rock off and show the nastiness hiding underneath. Pre-meds, and even a lot of med students, get shielded from this aspect of medicine until it is too late and they have no choice but to get abused at appalling levels because of the hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt they have already been saddled with. This article is a microcosm of the insidious foundation of the entire enterprise. The idea proffered that M1s are somehow more qualified to do any of this than average Joe who hasn't had a job in 2 months is a distractor from the real reason incoming M1s are the focus of this article: you can't say no. It's that simple. They know you can't say no.

but there already is a medical draft. Classes have been graduated early to be on the front lines.

1. Most classes have not. 2. Graduating early doesn't necessarily mean they can start residency early. 3. ACGME has come out and basically stated they disagree with this decision and for a resident to start early there will be significant red tape they have to go through. The AAMC/LCME green lighting classes graduating early does not amount to a "medical draft" and the situation is FAR more nuanced than you are claiming.

Your alarmist posts are not accurate or reflective of the current situation, as bad as it is.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I've read all of the posts and some thoughts came to mind:

How might some of these posts correlate when placed beside the Poster's personal statement on their med school application?

My parents generation won WW 2.
My generation fought for civil rights and ended the Vietnam war.

This could be the time to shine for this upcoming generation.
Just some thoughts.

BTW, the Editorial written was the dumbest !@#$%&$ thing I've read all day. Schools will struggle to start on time especially with social distancing.The idea of utilizing volunteers for pay, health ins, and school credit/consideration, residency app enhancement, etc., makes sense. Drafting does not. Plenty of Americans will volunteer given the chance. The idea of a draft of any kind still leaves a bitter taste in some of us.

 

[sunshinefl]

I've read all of the posts and some thoughts came to mind:

How might some of these posts correlate when placed beside the Poster's personal statement on their med school application?

My parents generation won WW 2.
My generation fought for civil rights and ended the Vietnam war.

This could be the time to shine for this upcoming generation.
Just some thoughts.

BTW, the Editorial written was the dumbest !@#$%&$ thing I've read all day. Schools will struggle to start on time especially with social distancing.The idea of utilizing volunteers for pay, health ins, and school credit/consideration, residency app enhancement, etc., makes sense. Drafting does not. Plenty of Americans will volunteer given the chance. The idea of a draft of any kind still leaves a bitter taste in some of us.

I’m not the premeds you’re addressing (I’m an M3/rising M4) but I just went back and re-read my personal statement. It’s all about bonding with patients/patient relationships. Literally nothing about forced drive-through testing of strangers.

 

[mmchick]

I've read all of the posts and some thoughts came to mind:

How might some of these posts correlate when placed beside the Poster's personal statement on their med school application?

My parents generation won WW 2.
My generation fought for civil rights and ended the Vietnam war.

This could be the time to shine for this upcoming generation.
Just some thoughts.

BTW, the Editorial written was the dumbest !@#$%&$ thing I've read all day. Schools willb struggle to start on time especially with social distancing.The idea of utilizing volunteers for pay, health ins, and school credit/consideration, residency app enhancement, etc., makes sense. Drafting does not. Plenty of Americans will volunteer given the chance. The idea of a draft of any kind still leaves a bitter taste in some of us.

I get where you're going with this, but you mentioned so yourself: the issue is with an extortive/forceful requirement of servitude under the weight of professional pressure/threat to one's career before one has even started said career all in the name of "this is the field of serving others". I'm sure many if not most medical students (of any level) would volunteer to help out where they can. The issue is suggesting that we will not have the choice or will be looked upon as untouchable black marks if we don't which within itself is manipulative and coercive.

The fear tactics are completely unnecessary and unwarranted. If someone has reservations about serving in environments where they can contract a potentially dangerous illness and suffer physical health consequences to themselves or their loved ones, that shouldn't be a reflection of their dedication to helping others. Yes, medicine is in the business of helping others. But even my basic EMT safety rules list an individual's no 1. priority as assuring safety to oneself. "If the scene isn't safe, do not enter". I'm not sure why this is thrown out the window all of a sudden to other types of health care professionals whom should be allowed to make informed decisions about where they are comfortable or uncomfortable serving. Everyone has their own gauge of risk aversion and using that as metric to one's integrity within the field is toxic, imho.

 

[KnuxNole]

Because your are the first ones to be drafted and can essentially be compelled as schools can make this almost a requirement; every school has written into its rules for students and applicants the ability to change graduation requirements. Its only the M1 now but I have said, it will eventually be a general call for all able bodied volunteers

Those people who support that need to get punched in the face. HARD. Honestly, these "admin" should just do it themselves. Remember, no one signed up for that.

 

[AmaranthMoor]

djskfkka hahahahahaha OMG this whole thread...........

Actual footage of what premeds gearing up to go out and “help” would look like:

 

[thegrind33]

Every pre-med needs to be paying attention to how physicians, residents, and medical students are being treated in all of this by the government and healthcare administration across the country. They are preying on the "commitment to serving others" with the battle cry of, "you signed up for this" all the while sitting comfortably at home doing Zoom meetings.

Quite frankly you are signing up for a life of indentured servitude. There are true human rights violations happening right now in hospitals all throughout the country. Violations that, if they occurred in any other industry, would lead to the entire industry being shut down. Doctors are being fired for speaking out, residents are being forced to work without adequate protection and subsequently dying, and nurses are being fired for bringing their own protection to work when their employer refuses to provide it. The most insane part is that these violations have been occurring the entire time but it took this pandemic to pull the rock off and show the nastiness hiding underneath. Pre-meds, and even a lot of med students, get shielded from this aspect of medicine until it is too late and they have no choice but to get abused at appalling levels because of the hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt they have already been saddled with. This article is a microcosm of the insidious foundation of the entire enterprise. The idea proffered that M1s are somehow more qualified to do any of this than average Joe who hasn't had a job in 2 months is a distractor from the real reason incoming M1s are the focus of this article: you can't say no. It's that simple. They know you can't say no.



1. Most classes have not. 2. Graduating early doesn't necessarily mean they can start residency early. 3. ACGME has come out and basically stated they disagree with this decision and for a resident to start early there will be significant red tape they have to go through. The AAMC/LCME green lighting classes graduating early does not amount to a "medical draft" and the situation is FAR more nuanced than you are claiming.

Your alarmist posts are not accurate or reflective of the current situation, as bad as it is.

Would also like to add that the generation of docs that are retiring/at the end of their career are the first of almost any industry to be better off than their predecessors yet leave the field in worse shape for their future successors, and what you outlined in your post sums up why this is happening as well

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

War is hell, but hell isnt necessarily war. This is literally correlation doesn’t imply causation (a little nugget for you MCATers)

For those of you calling this a war. Could you, in good faith, go up to a veteran with PTSD from an actual war, and say this is a war? Say it’s the same thing? NO ONE IS SAYING THIS SITUATION DOESNT SUCK, it’s just not war.

Well I'm active duty who has been on deployment and been in conflict, and I have no problem with people calling this a war. We are fighting a horrible virus that is worse than fighting a human enemy, and having to see people die alone and afraid no matter what you do with the fear that just by being in the same building you could suffer the same fate is enough to give someone mental trauma.

So yes, saying these people are at war with COVID is fine by me.