Jerks at Stanford...

[tibor75]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Forwarded email I got from one of my friends who's a fellow at Stanford:

I received a compliant from the Office of Student Affairs regarding
residents asking medical students to run errands (pick up their dry
cleaning), etc. Such requests are unacceptable and unprofessional.

 

[mlw03]

yeah, this is obviously wrong. but i don't think one should refer to all at stanford as 'jerks' based on the improper actions of some of its residents. other than a request to get some food from the cafeteria for a resident (and they've always said to get something for myself on their hospital food card), i haven't experienced this type of thing during my MS3.

is the practice of having med students do errands for residents something that really still happens at US med schools?

 

[Tired]

is the practice of having med students do errands for residents something that really still happens at US med schools?

In my case, routinely. To the point where you don't even think about it anymore.

 

[mlw03]

In my case, routinely. To the point where you don't even think about it anymore.

that's absurd - they really have you go do errands for them? is there nothing you can do in terms of talking to administration to end this? paying huge sums of tuition to be a gopher is wrong on so many levels - for your sake i hope you can do something about it, and sooner rather than later.

 

[Tired]

that's absurd - they really have you go do errands for them? is there nothing you can do in terms of talking to administration to end this? paying huge sums of tuition to be a gopher is wrong on so many levels - for your sake i hope you can do something about it, and sooner rather than later.

I graduate in four months, so there's really no point in saying anything now. I did discuss it extensively in my AMCAS exit survey, but I find it unlikely that anyone will do anything about it.

Personally, I don't have much a problem with it, and to be honest, I frequently volunteer to be a gopher. I find that buying lunch for my residents, getting stuff for them, bringing coffee, etc tends to put me in good graces with them, and makes my life a lot easier. If I'm willing to hunt down x-rays for them, research topics, find books at the library, what's the big deal about getting food or bringing them movies? Plus, I have found that when I need something (to leave early, get on a more interesting case, take a phone call) they are much less likely to make a big deal out of it.

Is this med student abuse? Maybe at times, when I was told to do something rather than volunteering for it. But I will take that any day of the week over some of the other abuse I have suffered (yelling, demeaning comments, refusal to teach). And in my case, the abuse at the hands of nurses has been much more hideous than anything the residents have put me through.

If you don't want to be a gopher, it is not too terribly difficult to politely avoid. But when someone yells at you that you are "weak and stupid", there's really nothing you can do but keep quiet and take the blow to your dignity.

 

[scrub monkey]

stanford med students are known to be amongst the most pampered students anywhere. they are treated significantly better than most of their east coast counterparts. but they still like to complain.

students at most east coast schools, as well as most traditional med students, expect to work hard to help to be part of the team. doing scut is expected as a med student.

students at stanford often expect everyone else to work hard to make sure their learning experience is not disrupted by scut. stanford students wear long white coats from year 1, so you can't tell who's a med student or an attending. also they are almost never required to stay overnight on call. there are no grades, and everyone matches well, so there is little incentive to try to impress.

this is not true of all stanford students. there are many who are great team players. but the environment is definitely much more relaxed and kind to med students than most east coast programs.

while asking students to get dry cleaning is inappropriate, i wouldn't have too much pity on the poor stanford students.

 

[toothless rufus]

But when someone yells at you that you are "weak and stupid", there's really nothing you can do but keep quiet and take the blow to your dignity.

Seriously: why not? What will happen if you instruct them as to the inappropriatness of their behavior and outburst? Will they try to pussily get back at you by giving you a perhaps unearned bad review? That's pretty sheety. Why is there so much pissy and prissy juvenile behavior in the pecking order of medicine? It's contemptible. And laughable.

 

[Tired]

Seriously: why not? What will happen if you instruct them as to the inappropriatness of their behavior and outburst? Will they try to pussily get back at you by giving you a perhaps unearned bad review? That's pretty sheety.

I think it's important to distinguish the two types of residents/attendings who do this.

1) Jerks - People who just get off on putting down students, and have no real interest in teaching you or helping you get ahead.

2) Decent docs - Medicine has historically been one big hazing ritual, and there are still a lot of docs out there who believe that they can "toughen up" their students by berating them. This type does teach you, does want you to succeed, and does not believe their comments should be taken "personally".

I have experienced a little of #1, and much more of #2. While it still stings to take shots, I have no interest in butting heads with a doctor who is actually interested in helping me, even if they can be rude or mean.

The attending who called me "weak" in the middle of the OR (and several other names on multiple occassions) was also the best teacher I had on surgery, and several times stood up for me when residents or anesthesiologists came after me. At the end of my rotation, she wrote me a really beautiful letter of recommendation.

My surgical residents were much the same way. I was yelled at several times on rounds in front of the entire team ("Who the hell do you think you are?! You're not a resident, and I expect you to give complete presentations on every one of your patients! If you can't even remember a simple creatinine value, how the hell do you think you'll ever make it Orthopedics?!"). I, and my classmates, were frequently put down ("Did you learn anything in your first two years of med school?!"). But at the end, the chief gave me honors, and sent me a very nice email saying that she only rode me so hard because she knew I could take it, and believed in my potential as a surgeon.

In short, while these experiences have been painful, I believe that they made me a tougher person, and a better student. By correcting my mistakes at an MSIII level, I performed better on my sub-i's, and was able to match to my first choice program. Does it hurt? Hell yes. Am I glad it happened? Actually, kind of.

 

[toothless rufus]

I think it's important to distinguish the two types of residents/attendings who do this.

1) Jerks - People who just get off on putting down students, and have no real interest in teaching you or helping you get ahead.

2) Decent docs - Medicine has historically been one big hazing ritual, and there are still a lot of docs out there who believe that they can "toughen up" their students by berating them. This type does teach you, does want you to succeed, and does not believe their comments should be taken "personally".

I have experienced a little of #1, and much more of #2. While it still stings to take shots, I have no interest in butting heads with a doctor who is actually interested in helping me, even if they can be rude or mean.

The attending who called me "weak" in the middle of the OR (and several other names on multiple occassions) was also the best teacher I had on surgery, and several times stood up for me when residents or anesthesiologists came after me. At the end of my rotation, she wrote me a really beautiful letter of recommendation.

My surgical residents were much the same way. I was yelled at several times on rounds in front of the entire team ("Who the hell do you think you are?! You're not a resident, and I expect you to give complete presentations on every one of your patients! If you can't even remember a simple creatinine value, how the hell do you think you'll ever make it Orthopedics?!"). I, and my classmates, were frequently put down ("Did you learn anything in your first two years of med school?!"). But at the end, the chief gave me honors, and sent me a very nice email saying that she only rode me so hard because she knew I could take it, and believed in my potential as a surgeon.

In short, while these experiences have been painful, I believe that they made me a tougher person, and a better student. By correcting my mistakes at an MSIII level, I performed better on my sub-i's, and was able to match to my first choice program. Does it hurt? Hell yes. Am I glad it happened? Actually, kind of.

Interesting, and while I must say I do not understand this approach to teaching (in any discipline), it is very cool that you had overall very positive outcomes and experiences.

As a parallel, I have had many martial arts teachers over the years. Some taught the "traditional" way. Pain, verbal put-downs, really into the master and student thang: all the movie-fu crap that is supposed to "build character" when the "student is ready" etc .Some had genuine skill to impart. Most didn't. Both lived in fantasy land! At first, I put up with the BS if I wanted what they had to teach badly enough. But I have had teachers with scary skill who are patient and kind, and treat every student with respect, and as an equal, sharing in the learning process. The teacher is strengthening their own skills while imparting new ones to the student, while both are appreciating the knowledge on different levels. I will never train with a jerk again.I am no ones dog. Abuse is abuse, either way. I have very little tolerance for crap, unless I have done something stupid when I should have known better, and am concerned about how I may approach dealing with it, as is apparent that I will probably encounter this. I don't want to kick someone's ass, and I sure don't want to get a bad evaluation that I did not merit: but I really will not take unearned BS from anyone. Oh, well! At least it will be interesting!

 

[Tired]

Interesting, and while I must say I do not understand this approach to teaching (in any discipline), it is very cool that you had overall very positive outcomes and experiences.

Honestly, I probably wouldn't be okay with it, had the outcome not been good. I guess it's easier to take getting crapped on if things come out well in the end. It's like lawsuits, no one ever goes to court over a good result.

 

[toothless rufus]

Honestly, I probably wouldn't be okay with it, had the outcome not been good. I guess it's easier to take getting crapped on if things come out well in the end. It's like lawsuits, no one ever goes to court over a good result.

Yeah, good point! All the crap just bums me out. There's unfortunately a lot of rot inside medicine.

 

[tibor75]

Personally, I don't have much a problem with it, and to be honest, I frequently volunteer to be a gopher. I find that buying lunch for my residents, getting stuff for them, bringing coffee, etc tends to put me in good graces with them, and makes my life a lot easier. If I'm willing to hunt down x-rays for them, research topics, find books at the library, what's the big deal about getting food or bringing them movies? Plus, I have found that when I need something (to leave early, get on a more interesting case, take a phone call) they are much less likely to make a big deal out of it.

well, there is a big difference between being helpful and being somebody's slave. I would have had no problem getting coffee in the hospital for my team or getting a newsppaer from the gift shop
Doing work outside the hospital (picking up dry cleaning, etc.) is completely unacceptable and any med student who puts up with it is weak.

 

[Tired]

well, there is a big difference between being helpful and being somebody's slave. I would have had no problem getting coffee in the hospital for my team or getting a newsppaer from the gift shop
Doing work outside the hospital (picking up dry cleaning, etc.) is completely unacceptable and any med student who puts up with it is weak.

Why? Going to Starbucks or McDonalds a couple miles away isn't that substantively different that going to the cafeteria. What's the big deal with that?

 

[Mman]

That's right! If you want to make it in Ortho you need to state that you aren't quite sure what a creatinine level means and should probably consult medicine despite the fact that you pulled a 270 on Step 1.

 

[tibor75]

Why? Going to Starbucks or McDonalds a couple miles away isn't that substantively different that going to the cafeteria. What's the big deal with that?

Oh, I don't know...the time involved, the inconvenice, the fact that you are out of the hospital where you are SUPPOSED to be and learn.

Any med student who leaves the hospital to do errands for himself is lazy. To do errands for others, weak and spineless.

 

[Tired]

Oh, I don't know...the time involved, the inconvenice, the fact that you are out of the hospital where you are SUPPOSED to be and learn.

Great advice, I can picture it now:

Resident: "I'm exhausted, can you grab me a cup of coffee?"

Student: "F*ck you. You're here to teach me! Teach, b*tch!"

Any med student who leaves the hospital to do errands for himself is lazy. To do errands for others, weak and spineless.

Thanks for that. Good to know that finishing residency doesn't necessarily make you a pleasant person.

 

[tibor75]

Great advice, I can picture it now:

Resident: "I'm exhausted, can you grab me a cup of coffee?"

Student: "F*ck you. You're here to teach me! Teach, b*tch!"



Thanks for that. Good to know that finishing residency doesn't necessarily make you a pleasant person.

Can you grab me a cup of coffee from the cafeteria?

Can you go to Bob Evans and pick me up breakfast?

yeah, those 2 are the same.

But I think we're both missing the point. At least picking up food/coffee is something somebody needs to function during work hours. Grabbing laundry (which it was Stanford said is going on) is just inappropriate scutwork

 

[Tired]

But I think we're both missing the point. At least picking up food/coffee is something somebody needs to function during work hours. Grabbing laundry (which it was Stanford said is going on) is just inappropriate scutwork

I would argue that both are inappropriate scutwork. The question is, would you do it (as an MS3) if asked? I absolutely would, and I wouldn't say anything about it. You may think that makes me "weak", but I think it makes me smart.

 

[tibor75]

I would argue that both are inappropriate scutwork. The question is, would you do it (as an MS3) if asked? I absolutely would, and I wouldn't say anything about it. You may think that makes me "weak", but I think it makes me smart.

actually I'd probably do it too since I'm weak.

But I'd complain about it to the resident (if the intern made me do it) or the attending.
But who knows? If it was the OB/GYN rotation, I would haev loved the chance to get out of work and do something easy instead.

 

[LADoc00]

Forwarded email I got from one of my friends who's a fellow at Stanford:

I received a compliant from the Office of Student Affairs regarding
residents asking medical students to run errands (pick up their dry
cleaning), etc. Such requests are unacceptable and unprofessional.

Ahh the good old days. such nostalgia🙂

When I was med student I had to sort and file the Playboy subscription for the ortho residents they kept in their call room.

At least it isnt sexual favors that involve camcorders.

 

[Tired]

If it was the OB/GYN rotation, I would haev loved the chance to get out of work and do something easy instead.

Ironic that you mention that. Ob/Gyn was the only place where I didn't do whatever the residents wanted (mainly because they were mean about asking/telling me to do things, and I hated them). It was also the only rotation I didn't honor during my third year. Go figure. 😀