Jet's Case Of The Week

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jetproppilot

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I've had a run of challenging cases lately...heres one of the milder ones...

63 y/o BM, H/O HTN, IRDM, newly diagnosed renal failure, presents for basilic vein transfer.

No known MI. HTN now fairly well controlled, pre-op BP 148/88
No asthma/COPD nonsmoker
No PUD
No CVA Szs

No previous anesthetic sequalae

No allergies

During pre-op interview, patient is lying nearly flat, talking in full sentences (read: no covert volume overload issues)

148/88 HR 88 RR 16

heart: RRR
lungs:clear

Labs of note: Hb/HCT 10/30, BUN/Cr 50/6. Electrolytes WNL. No hyperkalemia, no acidosis.

EKG: NSR with NSST changes.

Midaz 2mg, rolled to the OR. Monitors placed. Fentanyl 100ug, monitors placed. Initial vitals similar to above.

rocuronium 5mg, pre O2, propofol 150 mg, sux 100mg, eyes taped, ventilated for 30 sec, easy intubation. Tube secured, pressure points padded, table turned. Everythings cool. Beeped by OB, need a labor epidural. Check out with the CRNA, walk down the stairs to OB. Pager goes off. Room 7. Call room 7 from the OB nurses station. You're needed in room 7. Tell the OB nurse I'll be back...no problem...its a G1 at 4cm.

Back up the stairs, into room 7.

Prep and drape is done. Surgeon hasnt started yet, but he's sitting on his chair with scalpel in hand.

Monitor shows HR=190. Last BP shows 70 systolic.

Walk me through this, including the VERY FIRST 3 WORDS THAT YOU MUST FIRMLY SAY UPON REACHING THE ROOM....

Walk me through this.

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So as I am drawing up the esmolol, I want to know exactly what has happened since I left the room. Especially the drugs given. I want his heart rate down NOW. And I will consider dig to keep it there. Of course this is assuming the other vitals are OK. Once the HR is down I assume that his BP will improve.
 
1. What Allergies does he have
2. What drugs/antibiotics were pushed--possible anaphylaxis
 
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Doc13 said:
1. What Allergies does he have
2. What drugs/antibiotics were pushed--possible anaphylaxis

No allergies, as cited above. Nothing has happened in the room since you've left. No Abx given, etc.
 
Noyac said:
So as I am drawing up the esmolol, I want to know exactly what has happened since I left the room. Especially the drugs given. I want his heart rate down NOW. And I will consider dig to keep it there. Of course this is assuming the other vitals are OK. Once the HR is down I assume that his BP will improve.

How much esmolol, Noy?
 
jetproppilot said:
How much esmolol, Noy?

I have had an anaphylaxis in the OR and this seems similiar. But I want the HR down, Now. I usually start with 20 mg. In this case maybe more, 40mg. I would be looking for some epi, benadryl, and pepcid. But not convinced yet.
 
I'm just a ms4, but I'm thinking that if this is anaphylaxis, assuming this is svt and not afib, his tachycardia is likely due to massive vasodilation, not cardiac in origin. I would give as much fluid as possible, along with phenylephrine. Then follow with epi, benadryl etc. If this turns out to be cardiac in origin, I wonder if amiodarone may be more beneficial than a Beta blkr, giving less hypotension? (I'm not sure if its ever used for svt :confused: )
 
Doc13 said:
I'm just a ms4, but I'm thinking that if this is anaphylaxis, assuming this is svt and not afib, his tachycardia is likely due to massive vasodilation, not cardiac in origin. I would give as much fluid as possible, along with phenylephrine. Then follow with epi, benadryl etc. If this turns out to be cardiac in origin, I wonder if amiodarone may be more beneficial than a Beta blkr, giving less hypotension? (I'm not sure if its ever used for svt :confused: )

If this is svt then I would use esmolol as I said. Follow with Digoxin, or adenosine. Another way to slow the heart down is with Neostigmine.

Hey Jet, are you guys fully latex free?
 
Noyac said:
But I want the HR down, Now. I usually start with 20 mg. In this case maybe more, 40mg.

Sorry, Noy. Didnt mean that question to sound like a pimping question. It wasnt. I know you're a super stud. Just making a point for the residents out there.

Esmolol is a great drug. You give it, and you get quick results. But what if you're wrong? Usually not a problem, since esmolol's half life is so short (7 minutes if I remember correctly) that it'll wear off and you can switch gears.

In a "normal" case, you see a modest heart rate increase you're uncomfortable with. After assuring yourself anesthetic depth is adequate, you elect to give esmolol 20mg or labetolol 2.5-5mg.

Or you see a modest BP decrease you're uncomfortable with. You give ephedrine 10mg or phenylephrine 100ug.

You are, in essence, tweaking the patient's hemodynamics with small hemodynamic interventions, analagous to making small yoke/rudder adjustments in an airplane to maintain a constant heading. Nothing drastic...just a little here, a little there...

But my point is this...in room 7, you've gotta dude on the table with a serious problem...HR very high, BP low...dude is begging you to cardiovert him...but you've got a cuppla minutes to try pharmacologic intervention, and if you're gonna try and control this situation with drugs and not electricity, now is not the time to hedge your bet with a modest dose of something.

Anesthesia is like flying an airplane...a series of small corrections...in most cases, if you give a big bolus of something, you'll end up chasing your tail...just like if you make a big yoke/rudder input, your heading is gonna change big too....

but with room 7 dude chomping on the paddles, pleading with you to zap him, now is not the time for a small correction...

So I gave esmolol 60 mg (1mg/kg).

And it worked...at least some. HR down to 115 or so.

What I neglected to tell you is that a small amount of nondepolarizer was given after induction (rocuronium 20mg), and after all this had transpired, it was time to see if we could get the tube out. So I gave neostigmine 5 mg devoid of glycopyrrolate because of the heart rate...good tidal volumes after reversal, pulled the tube.

By the time we got to PACU, HR was in the eighties. Subsequent EKG showed NSR. :eek:

Geez, I never looked at neostigmine as a drug to help (albeit after curing most of the problem) with heart rate control, but hey, had to reverse the dude to get the tube out, mind as well exploit it's bradycardic tendencies...

Post op cardiology consult couldnt find anything. No MI etc.

Suspect a-fib with rapid ventricular response for God-only-knows-why.

OH, and back to the very important 3 words as soon as you figure out theres a problem, I said,

DUDE DON'T CUT!!!!

If the surgery hasnt started yet, make sure the surgeon doesnt start. Communicate.

And intra-op, its pretty rare we say theres a problem..most problems are fixed while you're saying "Yeah, they're doing great", but if you encounter a BIG problem, don't hesitate to say something....i.e. a surgery where you're getting behind in blood products..."Dude, if you're able, STOP what you're doing, pack it off, and let me catch up..".
 
jetproppilot said:
Sorry, Noy. Didnt mean that question to sound like a pimping question. It wasnt. I know you're a super stud. Just making a point for the residents out there.

Esmolol is a great drug. You give it, and you get quick results. But what if you're wrong? Usually not a problem, since esmolol's half life is so short (7 minutes if I remember correctly) that it'll wear off and you can switch gears.

In a "normal" case, you see a modest heart rate increase you're uncomfortable with. After assuring yourself anesthetic depth is adequate, you elect to give esmolol 20mg or labetolol 2.5-5mg.

Or you see a modest BP decrease you're uncomfortable with. You give ephedrine 10mg or phenylephrine 100ug.

You are, in essence, tweaking the patient's hemodynamics with small hemodynamic interventions, analagous to making small yoke/rudder adjustments in an airplane to maintain a constant heading. Nothing drastic...just a little here, a little there...

But my point is this...in room 7, you've gotta dude on the table with a serious problem...HR very high, BP low...dude is begging you to cardiovert him...but you've got a cuppla minutes to try pharmacologic intervention, and if you're gonna try and control this situation with drugs and not electricity, now is not the time to hedge your bet with a modest dose of something.

Anesthesia is like flying an airplane...a series of small corrections...in most cases, if you give a big bolus of something, you'll end up chasing your tail...just like if you make a big yoke/rudder input, your heading is gonna change big too....

but with room 7 dude chomping on the paddles, pleading with you to zap him, now is not the time for a small correction...

So I gave esmolol 60 mg (1mg/kg).

And it worked...at least some. HR down to 115 or so.

What I neglected to tell you is that a small amount of nondepolarizer was given after induction (rocuronium 20mg), and after all this had transpired, it was time to see if we could get the tube out. So I gave neostigmine 5 mg devoid of glycopyrrolate because of the heart rate...good tidal volumes after reversal, pulled the tube.

By the time we got to PACU, HR was in the eighties. Subsequent EKG showed NSR. :eek:

Geez, I never looked at neostigmine as a drug to help (albeit after curing most of the problem) with heart rate control, but hey, had to reverse the dude to get the tube out, mind as well exploit it's bradycardic tendencies...

Post op cardiology consult couldnt find anything. No MI etc.

Suspect a-fib with rapid ventricular response for God-only-knows-why.

OH, and back to the very important 3 words as soon as you figure out theres a problem, I said,

DUDE DON'T CUT!!!!

If the surgery hasnt started yet, make sure the surgeon doesnt start. Communicate.

And intra-op, its pretty rare we say theres a problem..most problems are fixed while you're saying "Yeah, they're doing great", but if you encounter a BIG problem, don't hesitate to say something....i.e. a surgery where you're getting behind in blood products..."Dude, if you're able, STOP what you're doing, pack it off, and let me catch up..".


No worries Wolfe. I didn't think of it as pimpin', and I don't mind being pimped. Even if it has been a while.
About the neostigmine. I used it in CABG's off pump when I wanted to keep the HR down while they were doing the anastomosis. After 10 of pancuronium, it wasn't going to reverse anything. it maintained BP well and lasted longer than esmolol. But if I was going to extubate post-op then I gave more roc if needed.
Funny how one topic leads to another here.
 
Noyac said:
If this is svt then I would use esmolol as I said. Follow with Digoxin, or adenosine. Another way to slow the heart down is with Neostigmine.

Hey Jet, are you guys fully latex free?

Nice thought, Noy. Latex allergy. I didnt even think about it....don't think it was the etiology at least THIS time...

but next time my back-to-my-medicine-days-back-there-somewhere brain will pop that differential up quickly.

Nice. :thumbup:
 
Noyac said:
No worries Wolfe. I didn't think of it as pimpin', and I don't mind being pimped. Even if it has been a while.
About the neostigmine. I used it in CABG's off pump when I wanted to keep the HR down while they were doing the anastomosis. After 10 of pancuronium, it wasn't going to reverse anything. it maintained BP well and lasted longer than esmolol. But if I was going to extubate post-op then I gave more roc if needed.
Funny how one topic leads to another here.

Yeah, maybe we can publish that, if we become academic dudes:

Exploiting Neostigmine's Bradycardic Tendencies in an Elderly Patient With Intraoperative Supraventricular Tachydysrhythmia

hahahhahah

sound formal enough for a paper?

Noyac, Jet, MilMD, UT, Zipster et al :laugh:
 
The first 3 words you say when ya walk in the room? " Who's your Daddy?" Perhaps "Git er done?" How about "Where's the CRNA?" ----Zip
 
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jetproppilot said:
Yeah, maybe we can publish that, if we become academic dudes:

Exploiting Neostigmine's Bradycardic Tendencies in an Elderly Patient With Intraoperative Supraventricular Tachydysrhythmia

hahahhahah

sound formal enough for a paper?

Noyac, Jet, MilMD, UT, Zipster et al :laugh:

Yeah we could do that but at least when we talk about it here, it gets read and not lost in all the esoteric BS they publish these days. Maybe thats a little harsh. I did read 2 studies in this months journal.

PS: it was your buddy from residency JP, at my last gig that taught me that one.
 
Noyac said:
Yeah we could do that but at least when we talk about it here, it gets read and not lost in all the esoteric BS they publish these days. Maybe thats a little harsh. I did read 2 studies in this months journal.

PS: it was your buddy from residency JP, at my last gig that taught me that one.

The Pisto-meister....what a stud!
 
Noyac said:
No worries Wolfe. I didn't think of it as pimpin', and I don't mind being pimped. Even if it has been a while.
About the neostigmine. I used it in CABG's off pump when I wanted to keep the HR down while they were doing the anastomosis. After 10 of pancuronium, it wasn't going to reverse anything. it maintained BP well and lasted longer than esmolol. But if I was going to extubate post-op then I gave more roc if needed.
Funny how one topic leads to another here.
In the old days (mid-late 70's) we used edrophonium for PAT. This was in pre or early beta blocker days - I don't recall that we had inderal available then.

And Jet, I was so sure your first three words would be WTF... :laugh:
 
jwk said:
In the old days (mid-late 70's) we used edrophonium for PAT. This was in pre or early beta blocker days - I don't recall that we had inderal available then.

And Jet, I was so sure your first three words would be WTF... :laugh:

Did any of those pts crap on the table like they can do with neostigmine? :eek:
Personally. never seen it but it can happen.
 
Noyac said:
Yeah we could do that but at least when we talk about it here, it gets read and not lost in all the esoteric BS they publish these days. Maybe thats a little harsh. I did read 2 studies in this months journal.
.

I dont think its harsh.

We think the same. Early in my career I paged through the monthly Anesthesiology periodical from cover to cover, in search of salient cutting-edge clinical info...after about 6 months in private practice one gets sick of reading articles on Bovine Seminal Vescicle Wedge Pressure Reflects Bovine Right Atrial Pressure ....seriously...our periodicals are slim pikkins for useful stuff for the in-the-trenches clinician...

I think we're missing the boat here...lets think outside the box for a minute...how do we bridge the gap between academecians who publish the science of our specialty, who are usually not very clinically gifted, and not usually very clinically involved....and the "grunt" anesthesia physicians who are actually doing the cases, perfecting their trade through anecdotal observations and advice/suggestions from other busy clinicians?

Do these "powerful, published" academic anesthesiologists really have a grasp on our specialty? Are they concentrating on publishing literature that is significant to our trade? Or are most of our periodicals full of more "filler" studies than great studies?

I'm a "grunt" anesthesiologist. I do cases every day I'm at work. I take night call.

I'd like to pick up a periodical representing our trade and read well done, well controlled studies that address anecdotal observations that I and all the other grunts have made conclusions on over a ten year career. Studies that could REALLY make a difference in the day to day grind of taking care of patients. Namely:

1) REAL LIFE NPO guidelines...i.e. 20 year old for a knee scope ate a waffle at 7am...its now 11am...we've all learned this is a no-no...but in ASA 1's, is morbidity/mortality increased by inadvertently eating breakfast on your surgery day?
2) Does the Selleck maneuver really matter? If you don't do it, does morbidity/mortality increase in full-stomach patients?
3) Does giving pre-op Pepcid/Reglan really make any difference in outcome on patients with sub-optimal gastric emptying?
4) Is putting a C section to sleep really that much more dangerous than regional?
5) Regional vs general...yes, we know after 24 hours no difference in pain/morbidity/mortality is seen, but what about the first 24 hours? If your knee had just been replaced, wouldnt you care about the first 24 hours?
6) During a craniotomy your volatile anesthetic reaches 1.6 mac. Does this increase morbidity/mortality?
7) Is there any real advantage, patient-outcome wise, to using some of the "new" drugs (remifentanil) or can one do the case with similar efficacy using fentanyl?
8) Does ventilation on a "full stomach" emergency really show a statistically significant increase of aspiration, when said ventilation is done by someone who knows how to ventilate? How many times have you done an RSI, had trouble with an intubation (or have been watching a resident/SRNA having trouble), have had to pull out the blade, gently ventilated because of desaturation, re-visualized, intubated, with no sequelae?
9) How much preoperative lab stuff do we REALLY need for an operation, in order to influence perioperative morbidity/mortality?
10) Why do some clinicians insist on a post-dialysis K+ before they'll put someone to sleep? Does this really make a difference in morbidity/mortality?
11)OK, the SWAN studies are out. So why are we still using them intraoperatively? Yes, I know you have all the derived formulas memorized, and you are a PAC stud. But do your clinical decisions that are made based on the SWAN numbers make a difference in patient morbidity/mortality, verses making clinical decisions based only on BP, HR, SpO2, EKG, urine output, (and if the case is a CABG, how the RV looks visually?)?
12) Does a CVP number's guidance in clinical decision making make a difference in patient morbidity/mortality, compared to guidance based only on BP, HR, EKG, urine output?
13)Why do people have to take their clothes off and put on a gown for cataract surgery? Is infection rate affected?
14) Does Bicitra before a labor epidural affect parturient morbidity/mortality? Or are we making future new mothers unneedingly more nauseated for no reason?
15) If "full stomach" is such a risk in elective cases, why dont more trauma patients that ate at Burger King an hour before their catastrophic car wreck requiring helicopter transport and emergency surgery die of aspiration on anesthesia induction?
16) Why dont residencies teach their residents that all the "correct" doses of medicines they are learning are not actually correct, since midazolam 2mg/propofol 2mg/kg//rocuronium .6mg/kg//NTG .5ug/kg/min etc etc means so many different physiologic responses from so many different people?
17) So what is the real answer for diabetics? Is patient morbidity/mortality affected by which assigned-insulin-regime they follow: no insulin/half insulin dose on day of surger
18) Does drinking a cup of coffee 2 hours before your knee scope truly affect your expected perioperative morbidity/mortality?
19) Does cancelling a case because of an NPO guideline infraction really make a difference in patient outcome?

OK. Thats enough from me. Look, I learned all the "rules" just like you astute residents are learning now. What I've found over the years, IMHO, is that some of the stuff I learned was voodoo...didnt have an impact on morbidity/mortality and just wasted time.

I encourage you to ask WHY during residency. Why am I doing this procedure? Why am I cancelling this case?

Many times we do things without science to back up our decisions. And most of these scenerios waste a buncha time: yours, the patient's, and the surgeon's.

Think outside the box you are being taught.

And add to this list.

Lets do things for a reason. And get rid of things we do in anesthesia for no reason.
 
Not to inflate your ego.

But...

Best SDN post ever.

I have thought of nearly all these questions, as an inquisitive med student, and so many of them have to do with operator skill, and as such, will likely never be quantifiable, but they are exactly the same questions I ask before a case.

I appreciate the attendings that post here, the other groups dont get quite this kind of treatment. We all know you guys are busy, but the kind of stuff that you all post (the real world stuff, from you, mil, noyac, et al.) is very helpful.

Thanks.
 
jetproppilot said:
Yeah, maybe we can publish that, if we become academic dudes:

Exploiting Neostigmine's Bradycardic Tendencies in an Elderly Patient With Intraoperative Supraventricular Tachydysrhythmia

hahahhahah

sound formal enough for a paper?

Noyac, Jet, MilMD, UT, Zipster et al :laugh:
Can I be part of the "et al"? :smuggrin:
 
I like your list jet. I believe I do everything on there opposite from the academics who taught me.

And it drives some of my more inexperienced colleagues NUTS....
 
militarymd said:
I like your list jet. I believe I do everything on there opposite from the academics who taught me.

And it drives some of my more inexperienced colleagues NUTS....

Oh, and my absolute favorite:

19) Barring a patient with a mediastinal neoplasm, why are we taught to ventilate before paralyzing, at least concerning succinylcholine? Does this really help us avoid catastrophe? If so, why arent more cases cancelled after giving the induction agent with subsequent difficulty ventilating? 99.999% of the time the sux/or whatever is given anyway.
Why not give an appropriate dose of succinylcholine right after loss of lid reflex to quickly optimize intubationg conditions? Does giving succinylcholine in this fashion, without first ventilating, affect perioperative morbidity/mortality?
 
jwk said:
In the old days (mid-late 70's) we used edrophonium for PAT. This was in pre or early beta blocker days - I don't recall that we had inderal available then.

And Jet, I was so sure your first three words would be WTF... :laugh:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAA
 
jetproppilot said:
I've had a run of challenging cases lately...heres one of the milder ones...

63 y/o BM, H/O HTN, IRDM, newly diagnosed renal failure, presents for basilic vein transfer.


Monitor shows HR=190. Last BP shows 70 systolic.

.

Assuming Sevo was avoided due to renal issues, and Des was used, did the CRNA/SRNA unwittingly crank the gas wide open as soon as the tube was in? Des has a well-earned reputation for causing jumps in HR if not increased incrementally. Drives me nuts when our SRNAs turn the Des straight to 8% all the time, immediately after intubation, when we still have 10 minutes of pomp and circumstance prep-n-drape to undertake before the pt gets the scalpel. I should buy stock in the company which makes ephedrine.
 
trinityalumnus said:
Assuming Sevo was avoided due to renal issues, and Des was used, did the CRNA/SRNA unwittingly crank the gas wide open as soon as the tube was in? Des has a well-earned reputation for causing jumps in HR if not increased incrementally. Drives me nuts when our SRNAs turn the Des straight to 8% all the time, immediately after intubation, when we still have 10 minutes of pomp and circumstance prep-n-drape to undertake before the pt gets the scalpel. I should buy stock in the company which makes ephedrine.

Nice thought, Trin.

Cant remember now but I'm pretty sure we used Sevo...and as far as I know the alleged renal sequelae issues from sevo arent an issue anymore.
 
Jetman, Why freak and cancel case? Just tell the surgeon ya attempting to get the hemodynamics under control and for him to give ya 10-15 minutes. You're goin' in the right direction, pulse now at 115. Titrate in some phenylephrine and see what ya get. If ya unable to get it all under control in 15 minutes or so then talk with surgeon about cancelling case. Tincture of time my friend is usually your best friend. Regards, ---Zip
 
zippy2u said:
Jetman, Why freak and cancel case? Just tell the surgeon ya attempting to get the hemodynamics under control and for him to give ya 10-15 minutes. You're goin' in the right direction, pulse now at 115. Titrate in some phenylephrine and see what ya get. If ya unable to get it all under control in 15 minutes or so then talk with surgeon about cancelling case. Tincture of time my friend is usually your best friend. Regards, ---Zip

Nah, not this time Zipster. Just had a bad feeling. And I'm not your case-cancelling type.
 
where's nitecap?:)
 
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